Timmy84 said:

tinaz said:

You know, chances are, he probably was just telling those kids that they were jaywalking and needed to use a legal crosswalk, and even if he was citing them they shoulda just taken the ticket because THATS THE LAW! Im sure they started mouthing off to him and things got out of hand... Noone has seen the footage of what had happened BEFORE they started to film...

And that's where things are muddled.

yup...

Timmy84 said:

Yeah we don't arrest folks for shit like that in NC.

Shit is way different out west.

yeah in super conservative and thus racist Seattle!

I do know that blacks tend to get more jay walking tickets than whites. I remember I would jay walk even in front of a cop car and not get a ticket. I almost got hit by a car and still didn't get one.

You cannot justify hitting a girl, no matter what she does, unless she pulls a knife or a gun. He is a big man, he had means to restrain her.

"let's respect authority." All that is why we let the government get away with so much. Defying the authority is better.

2freaky4church1 said:

I do know that blacks tend to get more jay walking tickets than whites. I remember I would jay walk even in front of a cop car and not get a ticket. I almost got hit by a car and still didn't get one.

You cannot justify hitting a girl, no matter what she does, unless she pulls a knife or a gun. He is a big man, he had means to restrain her.

"let's respect authority." All that is why we let the government get away with so much. Defying the authority is better.

Are you serious??

She RAN into it... bottom line she shouldn'ta been talkin shiggity

2freaky4church1 said:

I do know that blacks tend to get more jay walking tickets than whites. I remember I would jay walk even in front of a cop car and not get a ticket. I almost got hit by a car and still didn't get one.

You cannot justify hitting a girl, no matter what she does, unless she pulls a knife or a gun. He is a big man, he had means to restrain her.

"let's respect authority." All that is why we let the government get away with so much. Defying the authority is better.

I agree 100% weird that every day I feel that more and more for the last 18 months are so!

2freaky4church1 said:

You cannot justify hitting a girl, no matter what she does, unless she pulls a knife or a gun.

this is nonsense. everyone has a right to defend themselves.

crazydoctor said:

2freaky4church1 said:

You cannot justify hitting a girl, no matter what she does, unless she pulls a knife or a gun.

this is nonsense. everyone has a right to defend themselves.

I know I am a big supporter of equal rights. Equal rights comes with equal treatment.

Dave1992 said:

SUPRMAN said:

What you want is for jaywalking to be legal. Fine. But until it is, it is a citeable offense.

Just like running a stop sign or a red light.

Just because there is no opposing traffic doesn't mean you can run the red with impunity.

No, I do not at all. I wrote that nobody should ever abide the laws without understanding them and thinking about them. Crossing the street at red light should be illegal as a statement, because it's dangerous. But as a policeman it is completely unnecessary to interfere if somebody does cross the street without any cars arriving. What for? To fill his own pockets with a bit of money? To live up to his uniform of authority? A grown-up should know what they are doing, even in the U.S.

But then they would not be jaywalking would they?

So police should not enforce the law?

Or is not understanding the law a defense to ignoring the law?

2freaky4church1 said:

I do know that blacks tend to get more jay walking tickets than whites. I remember I would jay walk even in front of a cop car and not get a ticket. I almost got hit by a car and still didn't get one.

You cannot justify hitting a girl, no matter what she does, unless she pulls a knife or a gun. He is a big man, he had means to restrain her.

"let's respect authority." All that is why we let the government get away with so much. Defying the authority is better.

He was dealing with more than one individual. This was not a one on one encounter.

SUPRMAN said:

Dave1992 said:

No, I do not at all. I wrote that nobody should ever abide the laws without understanding them and thinking about them. Crossing the street at red light should be illegal as a statement, because it's dangerous. But as a policeman it is completely unnecessary to interfere if somebody does cross the street without any cars arriving. What for? To fill his own pockets with a bit of money? To live up to his uniform of authority? A grown-up should know what they are doing, even in the U.S.

But then they would not be jaywalking would they?

So police should not enforce the law?

Or is not understanding the law a defense to ignoring the law?

They would.

Only if necessary and logically correct.

It is not.

They shouldn't have been resisting or making contact with the cop but he's out of control and should be fired.

He should've handled that better, been more vocally assertive, got her into the car quicker and refrained from punching even if they were being dumb bitches. I know they're just people doing a job but a reticent cop who just lashes out isn't right.

What happened to the Seattle cop who beat the girl in the cell last year? Deserved a custodial sentence no doubt.

[Edited 6/17/10 16:38pm]

1. My understanding is a nearby school has asked the police to enforce jaywalking laws to protect schoolchildren who might otherwise be hit by motorists.

2. You don't ever resist police. You certainly don't jump in to interfere with a police officer whom your friend is resisting.

3. I thought the routine was clear -- make sure your friends are taping any misdeeds by the police when they detain you, post the footage on the web as soon as possible and take your pick from the best lawyer who offers his or her services because the city will settle.

I agree that the sista shouldn't have done this, but a full out punch to the face?

That seems excessive....he could have taken her down, HARD, and handcuffed her, tazed her, peppersprayed her, with all the brutality that he could muster, but not a cold cock to the face.

Hell, a billie club would have been better.

Consider this also....that man was wrestling with two people with a crowd gathered around him.

He could have easily have had his gun ripped from him....it was a desperate situation which could have been handled better.

An apology is in order, nothing more...

Revolution said:

That seems excessive....he could have taken her down, HARD, but not a cold cock to the face.

Shit.....did I miss something?

PurpleRighteous1 said:

http://www.sableverity.co...ches-girl/

You may have already seen the latest video to come out of Seattle which captures an incident between a Seattle Police Officer and two black girls, 19-year old Marilyn Ellen Levias and 17-year-old Angel Rosenthal.

The video shows the officer deliver a punch to the face of 17 year old Angel Rosenthal. The kneejerk reaction has been one of outrage. Many have expressed alarm at the officer’s actions, describing them as “a violent outburst.”

But there is something else going on in that video which many local, outspoken members of the “Black community” have not addressed: the action of the girls involved.

The incident began simple enough. An officer stopped a group of girls for jaywalking near a local high school. In response, the girls became belligerent; raised voices, disrespect- and attempted to leave the scene.

At one point, Rosenthal repeatedly pushes the police officer. He pulls back his fist, aims, and delivers a single punch to her face. Of course, cameras were rolling. It wasn’t a pretty sight.

Many say it is a clear case of police brutality, or excessive force. They say the officer is a danger to the community and should be fired. They say nothing of the behavior of the girl in question.

People have attacked the validity of jaywalking citations. Others have accused the officer of using jaywalking as a means to harass “innocent Black kids”. Some have said what Rosenthal and her friend did pales in comparison to what the officer did in response. Still others have said “what did you expect her to do, listen to how he was talking to them!”

The local NAACP held a joint press conference with other “leaders”, condemning the officer and the entire department. As is customary when something like this happens, they asked the (acting) Chief to step down.

Jaywalking citations may very well be nonsense, and Black folks may very well disproportionately receive this ticket. It’s even fair to say that police officers “may” use the jay walking citation to harass people. What is not fair is to presume we know the intent or motivation of the officer was anything more than trying to address a group who’d just broken the law. We can’t assume he wanted to harass them.

Either way, none of that begins to change or excuse what has been downright ignored by most- the behavior of the girls involved. The video does not lie. One girl can be seen trying to push the officer’s hand away from her over and over. Both girls’ mouths are running a mile a minute. A crowd quickly gathers. They are interfering with the officer and attempting to leave the scene. As if all those things were not bad enough- both girls forcefully put their hands on the officer.

Let me stop here and offer this disclaimer. I know what it’s like to be hassled by cops, even grabbed physically, been called out of my name and cursed at. I’ve been present when others experience the same thing, whether friends or strangers. Being hassled, being grabbed, being spoken to in a disrespectful tone, or witnessing others go through those things, has never made me consider for one single second, putting my hands on an officer. Never.

Even if the officer was in the wrong, the time to win that battle isn’t in the moment.

If we’re going to assess the video, then let’s at least be fair to both sides. Instead of bending it’s contents to fit a predetermined position.

Yes, the officer punched the girl. No, it was not a random act of violence against her. It’s well documented that punching is a tactic used to gain or regain control over another person who is out of control. These two girls were out of control. They could have had a weapon. They could have grabbed his weapon. The crowd of onlookers could have jumped in to beat down the officer- take note that he is alone and outnumbered.

Even after the punch was given, the struggle continues. One girl comes up behind him and grabs him, trying to get him away from the other. It takes more than a full minute before he begins to actually regain control of the two sass mouths who are physically attacking him.

Was the punch unfortunate? Yes.

Could it have been avoided? Of course. Both of those girls could have complied with the officer. They could have kept their mouths shut and their hands to themselves. They didn’t do that. Instead they escalated the matter by putting hands on a police officer. They were arrested and taken to jail.

As they should have been.

Rosenthal and her friend were completely in the wrong, from beginning to end. If you want to smack talk a police officer you better be prepared for whatever he dishes back. If you want to touch a police officer- you best pray you don’t get yourself or any of your friends shot.

I would be horrified if I saw a video of my child behaving that way towards a cop. It’s reckless, hell, it’s dangerous. But she didn’t care about that- didn’t even pause to consider it.

Whether you agree with the laws or not, jay walking is illegal. They broke the law. I feel like Bill Cosby, about to give the infamous “poundcake” rant.

A little context for the location of where this took place. Franklin High School is just to the east of where this incident happened. Many students have to cross two major roads; MLK and Rainier Avenue. There is an elevated pedestrian bridge that spans both streets. Many students and youths who live in the area don’t bother to use the bridge. They instead, walk into moving traffic. I can say this with all certainty because I used to live about 50 yards from where the video was taken. I drive by there on a regular basis. I’ve had to slam on my breaks countless time because large groups of very rude teenagers mob into the street and glare at drivers, expecting us to stop. It’s a long-standing constant issue for that area. So while folks may say jay walking citations are “silly” in this case, they aren’t.

Not only did Rosenthal and her friend break the law once, they broke the law again when they set a single finger on that cop- let alone hands. That is unacceptable. There is nothing that can make it acceptable. They should have known the outcome would not be favorable- that’s what a person of reasonable intelligence would think. Making the choice to shove a cop is like choosing to walk into your kitchen right now, turn on the front eye of the stove top to “high”, wait till it gets hell-red and then slam your open hand down on it. Your brain won’t let you do that to yourself because it’s hardwired for self preservation. These girls are void of reasonable intelligence.

We need to keep it real with ourselves and each other, as a people. We can not go around excusing bad behavior because of (insert random justification here).

It’s not about what the cop did. It’s not about institutionalized racism in law enforcement. Nothing excuses or justifies their behavior. You don’t go around fighting with police officers, and for those who seek to excuse these girls, you’re doing them a disservice in life, sending the message that they have a right to behave in that fashion and not expect some sort of consequence.

When I watch the video, I don’t see two girls defending themselves from an overzealous cop. Instead, I see two flagrantly disrespectful girls who probably talk to their parents, to teachers, to strangers, the same way they spoke to and dealt with the officer in the video. I see two girls who come from a mentality that says they have the right to disregard authority, that they have the right to disrespect anyone for any reason. I see belligerent anger out of control. I see bullies.

It’s embarrassing and a huge part of our problem as a people. Of course law enforcement has institutional problems that need to be dealt with.

And so do our youth and their behaviors. Let’s not reduce this to a false dichotomy of one or the other. It’s both at the same time, and in this case, it’s not about the cop- it’s about the girls.

Is it fun to see a young woman clocked in the face? No. But she is LUCKY he didn’t shoot her foolish ass.

[Edited 6/16/10 20:38pm]

Sensible and SPOT ON.

tinaz said:

ernestsewell said:

I'm not endorsing violence on a woman, or police brutality, but he had the right to use force on that girl to get her out of the situation. She was putting her hands on him, started a struggle with him when he was already in one with another girl resisting arrest. Two against one. Girls or not, he had a right to use force to get her off of him. He could have pulled his billy club out and hit her, he could have Tazered her, he could have stun gunned her - whatever, but he had the right to make ONE move to get her off of him. She should have stayed the fuck out of it.

All that being said - on video, it doesn't LOOK good at all. When a cop tells you to stop, or get on the ground, or whatever, you just DO it. You can defend yourself later in the matter of court or charges, but you don't fucking say NO to a cop. Period. You don't put your hands on a cop. Period.

I third that motion.

I don't see what part of you don't put your hands on a cop that people just don't understand

^^^^ Right on. My father was on the job for 20+ years, so I knew how to handle myself when dealing with officers - no sudden moves, be respectful, and speak when spoken to. The cop has the gun, you don't. These dumbass girls got off easy. Putting your hands on a cop - WTF were these fools thinking?

Dave1992 said:

SUPRMAN said:

But then they would not be jaywalking would they?

So police should not enforce the law?

Or is not understanding the law a defense to ignoring the law?

They would.

Only if necessary and logically correct.

It is not.

If " A grown-up should know what they are doing, even in the U.S." they why would they be jaywalking knowing it is against the law.

Police do not take an oath to uphold the law "Only if necessary and logically correct." They uphold the law period, regardless of their personal opinions or what they deem logical.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

They shouldn't have been resisting or making contact with the cop but he's out of control and should be fired.

So he should not attempt to defend himself against those resisting arrest or making contact with his person with the intent to harm him/her?

How is that logical, reasonable or sane?

Ottensen said:

PurpleRighteous1 said:

[Edited 6/16/10 20:38pm]

Sensible and SPOT ON.

Co-sign

SUPRMAN said:

Dave1992 said:

They would.

Only if necessary and logically correct.

It is not.

If " A grown-up should know what they are doing, even in the U.S." they why would they be jaywalking knowing it is against the law.

Police do not take an oath to uphold the law "Only if necessary and logically correct." They uphold the law period, regardless of their personal opinions or what they deem logical.

That is why I said the exevutice forces have way too much power, because sometimes laws are not logically correct and fair. If a grown-up knows what they are doing crossing the street, let them be! Why would anybody cross the street if a car was arriving?

Dave1992 said:

SUPRMAN said:

If " A grown-up should know what they are doing, even in the U.S." they why would they be jaywalking knowing it is against the law.

Police do not take an oath to uphold the law "Only if necessary and logically correct." They uphold the law period, regardless of their personal opinions or what they deem logical.

That is why I said the exevutice forces have way too much power, because sometimes laws are not logically correct and fair. If a grown-up knows what they are doing crossing the street, let them be! Why would anybody cross the street if a car was arriving?

It not executive forces that create local ordinances.

It is the job of the city and local authorities to protect people. Sometimes people need protection from themselves.

So because I know why I am harming someone, and what I am doing, I should be allowed to do so?

If laws are not logical, correct and fair, there is a process for overturning them.

But why is it then, that most jurisdictions do have laws against jaywalking?

It is not against Federal or State law to jaywalk, it is a local ordinance which the locals can overturn if they agree that it is not logical, correct and fair.

So why haven't these local laws been overturned or altered?

Those young women weren't a threat to that police officer, his life wasn't in danger. Pepper spray would've backed both of these silly women up; his actions were excessive. Period.

TD3 said:

Those young women weren't a threat to that police officer, his life wasn't in danger. Pepper spray would've backed both of these silly women up; his actions were excessive. Period.

He can't defend himself unless his life is in danger?

Would pepper spray have allowed him to control the situation?

Of course not! Being sprayed is not going to make you stop, listen and take direction.

You are more likely to run, scream and fight anyone attempting to assist.

His actions were not excessive.

What about these women's actions?

SUPRMAN said:

Dave1992 said:

That is why I said the exevutice forces have way too much power, because sometimes laws are not logically correct and fair. If a grown-up knows what they are doing crossing the street, let them be! Why would anybody cross the street if a car was arriving?

It not executive forces that create local ordinances.

It is the job of the city and local authorities to protect people. Sometimes people need protection from themselves.

So because I know why I am harming someone, and what I am doing, I should be allowed to do so?

If laws are not logical, correct and fair, there is a process for overturning them.

But why is it then, that most jurisdictions do have laws against jaywalking?

It is not against Federal or State law to jaywalk, it is a local ordinance which the locals can overturn if they agree that it is not logical, correct and fair.

So why haven't these local laws been overturned or altered?

I think you and I are both seeing it from a completely different perspective. I may be too much of an idealist for this world, but, to me, laws should be guidelines with a meaning and a statement to make people think and learn. We should not be turned into Pavlovian dogs, abiding rules because we learned we have to.

I understand your point of view, but I'm also saying that there's another way, which I prefer. In Europe, people don't care whether we cross the street at red light or not and we still have a lower percentage of traffic accidents/deaths than the U.S.

It's all about education, see

Dave1992 said:

SUPRMAN said:

It not executive forces that create local ordinances.

It is the job of the city and local authorities to protect people. Sometimes people need protection from themselves.

So because I know why I am harming someone, and what I am doing, I should be allowed to do so?

If laws are not logical, correct and fair, there is a process for overturning them.

But why is it then, that most jurisdictions do have laws against jaywalking?

It is not against Federal or State law to jaywalk, it is a local ordinance which the locals can overturn if they agree that it is not logical, correct and fair.

So why haven't these local laws been overturned or altered?

I think you and I are both seeing it from a completely different perspective. I may be too much of an idealist for this world, but, to me, laws should be guidelines with a meaning and a statement to make people think and learn. We should not be turned into Pavlovian dogs, abiding rules because we learned we have to.

I understand your point of view, but I'm also saying that there's another way, which I prefer. In Europe, people don't care whether we cross the street at red light or not and we still have a lower percentage of traffic accidents/deaths than the U.S.

It's all about education, see

But it's not all about education.

Lower percentage of traffic accidents/deaths? Questionable, but even assuming that is true, if it is, can any of that be attributed to no jaywalking laws in Europe or better educated pedestrians?

If laws should be guidelines with a meaning and a statement to make people learn, then why aren't people required to learn the law in school? Law by law, so they understand the meaning and the statement?

You seem to believe that not knowing or understanding a law somehow means you should be given a pass?

Why shouldn't we abide by rules because we learned we have to? Is that how society is organized and structured?

You drive on one side of the road because that is a rule you have a Pavlovian response to. Crossing at cross walks, crossing on green lights . . . . .

SUPRMAN said:

TD3 said:

Those young women weren't a threat to that police officer, his life wasn't in danger. Pepper spray would've backed both of these silly women up; his actions were excessive. Period.

He can't defend himself unless his life is in danger?

Would pepper spray have allowed him to control the situation?

Of course not! Being sprayed is not going to make you stop, listen and take direction.

You are more likely to run, scream and fight anyone attempting to assist.

His actions were not excessive.

What about these women's actions?

Defend what Sup, some dumb girls talkin' shit with hands flying? Every had any experience with pepper spray? It's painful, it makes you disorientated, everyone around in the proximity would've had to backup. . . way up. By the way the pepper spray used by law enforcment isn't one the the same that consumers purchase at Walgreens. As I said excessive.