Paris9748430 said:

This bores me... is anyone up for a game of basketball???

I am, but unfortunately my game blouse is in the wash. How about pancakes instead?

Zannaloaf said:

hhhhdmt said:

So now we are supposed to give wendy credit for the beautiful ones simply because she has a sister? She had nothing to do with the song itself, and therefore deserves no credit for it. She does deserve credit for stuff like Mountains and SISIA but its this worsship of wendy and lisa that is annoying. They repeatedly get credit for songs they had nothing to do with, either by revolution fanboys or anti prince trolls.

NO ONE ever said that. Try reading.

That's how a lot of things get off track, hhhhdmt totally went around the world in a day and took that somewhere no one ever said. He read what he wanted to so he could create a strawmen. All it takes to totally corkscrew this conversation is take what he said and blow it x's 7

what a pathetic thread

bait, spam, troll

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

I hope you're not getting angry at me for being honest in my opinion of W&L and how I feel about their contribution/input in 'some' of Prince's music. OF4S, I hope not, because I'm just being honest. Also, I never said you stated Prince didn't have any talent. I based that opinion, generally, from several threads in the past from some fans, again not from you in particular, who have stated the same thing as the OP, about Prince not being as popular if it wasn't for W&L. I just don't believe that to be true, especially when he's worked with several band members after that.

May I also ask if you know for a 'fact' that any of the last paragraphs of your post are based on facts, rumors, or speculation, of who those songs were specifically written for, as I've heard so many stories of what songs were written for former Prince girlfriends. So unless these fans who say this, heard it exactly from Prince's mouth or he wrote it in black and white, about who those songs were specifically written for, then I take it all as speculation. Also, I don't think a question regarding whether my parents, 'would have done this or that', has anything to do with my opinion on this matter, as it is obvious I am here, and an individual, who can think clearly for herself and give an honest opinion.

As far as his collaborations with many of his former bandmembers, I am not saying they didn't bring anything to the equation, I just don't feel one or two, should take take 'full' credit for Prince becoming the popular musician he is today, especially when he's changed bandmembers throughout the years, who also contributed to his music, but doesn't mean 'they made him', so-to-speak. Just being honest, is all.

No no not at all no anger here at all

It's just that I said some specific thing just in general question about 'fate' how things work out or not.

Some things yes its fact that he wrote those songs about susannah, alot of it does come from those close in his camp. The creation of the Beautiful Ones is factual too. the creation of the Family was surrounding utilizing Susannahs vocal skills and Eric Leeds sax skills the project was a love child of Prince's. hmmm Susannah's Pajamas non studio live rendition called Susannahs Blues. Prince came very close to marrying her and to speculate that he would not write songs about this woman and for this woman.... He continued to work with her even after letting Wendy go then she finally had enough of what was happening. Empty Room, Wally-Susan Rogers factual statements etc etc

No the reason I said that was to say you are a unique individual. Just like in this group you bring a specific perspective to the group and you have certain focuses of life that show up in your posts. I don't think that anyone could have sparked Prince's creativity for those songs. Because Susannah is a unique individual. Same way he wrote a song called Wonderful Ass about Vanity. It was their quirky relationship that sparked it. Jill Jones - She's Always in My Hair. Could just anyone have filled Sheila E's shoes just because they played percussion? No, we would have had a totally different piece of history. If Jesse fronted the Time would it have worked? Probably would have been a totally different kind of band, especially since he could play guitar and Morris couldn't

Yes I understand how 'fate' could bring people together even if somehow by some small measure--a moment, a chance encounter, etc., but....I still cannot give W&L 'full' credit for Prince's total fame or popularity. They were contributors to his music/performance career, as Susannah, Sheila E, Cat, just to name a few, but they were/are not the main source of his creative, music skills or the main reason behind his success, especially when there were other musicians/artists he collaborated with prior to W&L, and after their release from his band. Again, no one is putting down W&L's talents as musicians, I just don't feel they are solely responsible for Prince's popularity.

I'm sure there are many musicians/artists who make songs about their relationships/loved ones/exes, etc., who have been inspirations for musicians to write a song about , but that doesn't mean all were/are the reason or main source for a musician's total success or popularity. Bruce Springsteen could have written 5 songs about his pet dog, should the dog be the reason for his popularity and success as a musician? As far as being 'unique', well isn't everybody? We're all individuals with our own 'uniqueness' if such a term exists. I didn't see Prince roll up in a fetal position and end his music career, once Susannah, W&L, and others were no longer part of his future stage performances or had absolutely no input in his future recordings/releases. I view him as a musician who moved on with his life and continued his music career.

[Edited 1/16/12 12:52pm]

2elijah said:

ladygirl99 said:

Exactly. I just dont like how some people downplay his talents just because oh my gosh even genuises tend to get influence by others but use what they learn into creating their own music vibes.

I hear you. It's almost like saying he has no talent without them, when he was known long before W&L joined the band. They're musicians who contributed their creativity to some of Prince's work, but they are not Prince, and they are not responsible for his musical talent/gifts. I really think some fans took the 'Purple Rain' movie like the bible and have it written in stone, that W&L were to be permanent band members in Prince's music career. The name of the former Prince and the Revolution tells you right there, that Prince's name was always 'separate' and stood out from the bandmembers, so there was never any guarantee the Revolution bandmembers were going to be permanent fixtures glued to Prince's future music career. He always had his name out there as the main feature/headliner musician/artist of the band, even with his first backup bandmembers.

I think many fans forget that he let a lot of light shine on W&L when they were part of the Revolution, moreso than some of the other bandmembers, so how is that not 'giving them credit' when they became known during that era because he gave them a lot of exposure on stage with him, as musicians/artists, even though it was Prince who was the main feature of his band, and the musician/artist most fans came to see at those shows/concerts during that era. He did the same with members of the Lovesexy era, giving major exposure to 'Sheila E' and 'Cat' during their time with him, even both Sheila E and Cat, had careers before they joined Prince's band.

It's not all the time bandmembers get that type of exposure, with a well-known artist on stage, who is the actual headliner. Even in the 'Purple Rain' movie, W&L were given more speaking lines, and their characters given more exposure and highlighted moreso, than the other members of the Revolution in the movie, as well as, their names called out in the classic songs of that era, where they gave their creative input with Prince. So again, I don't see how the OP can dare say Prince didn't give them credit, when they were given more than enough credit in many ways, during their time with him, and became known because of him. Thing is, he continues to 'highlight' the talents of other musicians/artists that have become part of his band or join him as guests on stage, while he takes a back seat.

Now how far they took their careers post-Prince, was up to them. They have been involved in creating music for cable shows, and collaborating with other artists since then, and performing shows on their own. They have even sung songs from the 'Purple Rain' era on stage, minus Prince, so it doesn't seem like they are barred from singing songs where they had creative input with Prince, post-Prince. Not to mention, that the many of their fans are directly from Prince's fan base, so they continue to reap the benefits of that as well as other former, band associates.

[Edited 1/16/12 7:17am]

I agree. Wendy and Lisa bring some color to Prince music and they did introduce himself to other genres outside of funk, rock and R&B but he also got influences from Andre, Dez, Sheila E, Clare Fischer, and others. I am W&L fan too but I dont kiss their ass nor overstated their contributuons. I stated before on here I believe it was another thread about white funk players or something and some people say Wendy was the best but I disagreed as I said that late Teena Marie would had beat Wendy on guitar and is funkier but again its all opinion. They are brilliant and talent musicians and they did challenge Prince musicially but Prince also challenge them too and they work hard to step up and Prince taught them about the technical, self discpined side of things. Prince also influence them too.

OldFriends4Sale said:

ladygirl99 said:

I totally agreed I think this OP did this just to stirr up 15th round of Prince vs W/L debate. I read and Wendy always maintain her and Lisa had bigger creative influence on Purple Rain title track, not the album, sometimes people get confused with the two. The other songs in the album done by Prince alone or some of the bandmembers were told to play their parts and singing background. Wendy siad herself the title track was the group effort. Prince did majority of Purple Rain songs alone and he might give his bandmembers credit too just to help them financial but I strongly believe since Wendy and Lisa in the past play Purple Rain, Mountains, and Sometimes It Snow In April, they were their babies. Wendy even said Prince was pure genuis for him came up with When Doves Cry his popular hit to date, especially with no bass line. So that is another point there that Prince still be popular since the bandmembers had little input on his hit songs.

I am a W&L fan but I dont kiss their asses nor overexaggeraed their contributions. Same goes for Prince.

I have a mp3 Chicago Public Radio:Sound Opinions 2009 with Lisa Coleman & Wendy Melvoin, Lisa has always been very factual and honest about Prince and work, who did what etc etc On this interview she talks about the making of the purple rain music and that most of the songs were a group collaboration, that When Doves Cry, the Beautiful Ones and Darling Nikki is all Prince

I've been reading everyones opinions and on both sides everyone has valid truthful points.

I think it a matter of 'fate'. If Joe Jackson wasn't who he was and that family come from a JW background etc would Michael Jackson be as big as he was? would he have been bigger if some of those things did not take place etc

the Beautiful Ones is a song Prince made 4 his want of Susannah Melvoin. Would that song ever have been created if Wendy didn't have a twin sister? G-Spot & Electic Intercourse were 2 be in that place.

Chris Moon was the one that actually got Prince on a more sexual road, cowriting Soft & Wet with him, if Chris Moon hadn't come into Prince's life would he have gone into the direction we knew him to go into.

very interesting ideas, 'what if' If Prince had a bunch of peole in the 1980-1986 years who came and went, who weren't really about Prince but about doing there own thing how long would it have taken Prince to be huge?

If he didn't love Susannah would we have some of the most beautiful music from 1984-1988 song that were dedicated to her that were released years later.... interesting conversation this has become for me.

Just in life in general you could have 100 friends but there tends to be 1 or 2 that stand out and that just bring out the best in you (directly & indirectly) Dark life experiences in some people bring out some of the most creative periods of their life. Whereas some people who float through life at times live very under the radar lifes.

Prince at that time was very good at bringing out the best (and in some cases the worst) in People. His choice in putting Morris Day in front vs Jesse Johnson was very thought out. Vanity created a very cohesive sexiness with Susan & Brenda that Apollonia could not duplicate. Vanity owned that position. Prince made a good choice with those 3, better treatment of he could have had another level/album of higher protege output from them. good decisions & bad decisions. But overall he had a lot of people who liked being where they were so Prince could pull from them the best quality.

Again I am not knocking down Prince is influence by W&L and others around him. Even Wendy and Lisa were influence by Prince and Sheila E with the business side and musical scoring just like their first album was Prince influence and even Erotica was Princey sound a bit, I had listen to all of their albums too (and to be honest I like only a few songs off all their four albums the rest bored me) my main issue is really to address the OP that Prince would still be popular without Wendy and Lisa and the others since his popular songs he did alone, and thats the truth. We can argued for years who influence who and what chords and lyrics that Prince took from his own former bandmembers as one of his own but since neither of the fans werent there, we go just based on the history that was told by his former bandmembers but even they only told their version that doesnt mean its true, it left up to debate. As far as group effort, again I said in my previous post yes it was true Prince allow the band to perform, but that goes back to which bandmember actually create their own ideas and added to a song or which songs they were told to play by Prince because I am sure you know Prince is control freak who want his bandmembers even Lisa and Wendy to play like he want them to. I know Wendy and Lisa said they came up with the chords to Purple Rain intro and they was properly credit as performer/arranger/conductor but should they also receive the co-writing credit for the entire song? Maybe that was why Prince made jabbed at them back in 1998 after Wendy declared she and Lisa wrote Purple Rain even though Prince already wrote the melody and lyrics before Wendy officially join the band? And even Bobby Z confirmed this in Spin magazine I am not saying Bobby is solely correct, I am saying that it is very complex and subjective who should actually deserve credit to PR beside Prince. But what is known from Wendy and Bobby accounts is that Wendy and Lisa came up with the idea to the intro, the band helped, and Prince already had the melody and lyrics all set to go. So that goes back to debate do Wendy and Lisa deserve the writing credit or the performing credit (which is just perform in their own style). W&L were properly credit for their performance on PR as performers. Lisa and her brother also did strings for Take Me With U like they did Purple Rain but its strange they never gone hard on that song like they did for Purple Rain. I think that was opportunists move when Wendy around 1998 said she and Lisa wrote Purple Rain, at the time when she/Lisa and Prince had a fall out I remember all that went down, but she since backtrack years later she and Lisa helped Purple Rain song. Dont forget late David Coleman, he also had some input to Purple Rain. I also personally believe Lisa and her late brother had a lot input to Purple Rain with the arranging than Wendy herself she just added more color to it so even back in 1998 I gave her a side eye after I read that interview. And again they were properly credit as performers. That is why I like Lisa better she is much classier among the two.

I know that you are a big W&L fan and you are going hard on them but I am more of a realist I see both sides of the issue here too. And also you cant determined Lisa is actually factual she is just telling her version of the events unless you were around when all this occurred. See that is so great about hearing stories from the bandmembers they tell the events based on how the experience.

alexandernevamind said:

My point is that Wendy and Lisa were crucial to his sound at that time.They brought in a different type of influence over his music that made it appeal to a wider audience.

I think Prince was eager to get back to his James Brown influenced grooves and didn't see a place for two white girls in that kind of band at the time.

Funk music is dead.Nobody under 30 listens to it.I think this leaves Prince stuck in a strange place between his old hits and trying to create something "New".

He certainly doesn't need a hit because he's still selling out coliseums.It'd be nice to see him get back with W&L and put out some great music again though.

BoySimon said:

Some of what you have written is true, some of what you have written isn't.

I seem to remember that The Revolution were kept on a paid retainer even when not in rehearsal/production mode - given to be unusual at the time.

Prince wrote Kiss, Mazarati and David Z polished it, Prince wanted it back... so he took it.

I can't think of a Prince band member who felt they were being 'used', as such... possibly Wendy towards the end, maybe Lisa... but that may have been a feeling they had once SOTT was released and they could hear themselves playing but not being credited with the performance in the liner notes.

I think there is an element of regret, frustration and anger on the part of ex-band members because once you're out, you're out. There was an article around the time Prince's and Mayte's child died when Matt Fink tried to go out to Paisley Park to offer Prince his support. He was not allowed in... This may obviously have been because Prince was in mourning, but Fink didn't appear to think this was the reason.

Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic was Prince working on a collaboration album... and it did not work. Prince, to these ears, works best when he's surrounded himself with strong talented people who, whilst never quite getting around to saying no to him, at least are able to influence the sound and direction of the music in more subtle or more idiosyncratic ways - for example Femi Jiya, W&L, Fink, Cymone (though I reckon Andre probably did say no to Prince quite a lot), Blackwell, Leeds, Thompson, Rogers, Parker or Fischer. Putting Prince in a studio with, say Chuck D, Sherly Crow, Gwen Stefani, Ani DiFranco, doesn't work. I seem to remember one of the reasons given by Prince for failing to turn up to the We Are The World recordings as being because he would 'freeze up' in a room full of stars... though, of course, that could be revisionist history/bullshit.

Prince has collaborated on individual songs with artists like Stevie Wonder... it was ok ... (again, to these ears)... but (and this links back, I think, to a thread I started a little while ago about Leeds or Parker as a saxophonist in Prince's band) - Prince works better with people who he has chosen and who are strong mentally and very sure of who they are. He stumbled on the perfect line-up twice (three times if you include the early Revolution with Andre and Dez) with The Revolution and with the SOTT/Lovesexy Band. Beyond that, his band members have been great musicians but uninspiring, with some exceptions (Sonny Thompson, Michael Bland, John Blackwell, Renato Neto).

Prince's music has sucked in the last 10 years? Not sure about that. It hasn't been as consistently good as it was in the 80s and (to some extent) in the 90s, but the last decade has seen some pretty great music released by Prince. I think that, and I most definitely include myself in this, we have come to expect too much from one man. The only problem is, he also expects too much of us ... in that he wants us to revere each and every release as if it were as good as the last... that's where Prince's popularity may have suffered. If he was honest enough to come out and say... 'ok, NPS and a couple of the other albums were a bit duff, but hey, listen to his new stuff..." then I think the world would be more inclined to give him another go. But then, what artist would admit they produced shit?

Anyway. This answer has rambled. I've realised I have too much time on my hands, and I think I need to go and put the kettle on for another cup of tea!

Prince was trying to get the crossover appeal by having a multiracial band like Sly and the Family Stone you remember Bobby Z, Matt Fink and Gayle Chapman and then Lisa came along the ride? And also he already crossover before Wendy came along in this point Wendy came at the right place at the right time. You acting like Wendy and Lisa and Prince were the revolution only.

hhhhdmt said:

So now we are supposed to give wendy credit for the beautiful ones simply because she has a sister? She had nothing to do with the song itself, and therefore deserves no credit for it. She does deserve credit for stuff like Mountains and SISIA but its this worsship of wendy and lisa that is annoying. They repeatedly get credit for songs they had nothing to do with, either by revolution fanboys or anti prince trolls.

LOL and Stevie Nicks should get the Purple Rain credit since she said Prince wrote that song about her. Susan Moosie for When Doves Cry, and Jill Jones for She Always Pull in My Hair, and Mayte Garcia for The Most Beautiful Girl in the World. Susannah is a okay singer and okay songwriter but she just average in her musical talents imo and some fans are making her contributions more bigger than they are because she is Wendy's twin. Mayte was actually Prince's first wife, unlike susannah who was just fianccee, so where is her knowlegement of influence?

@ the OP saying funk is dead. Whatever, funk is still alive.

As for Wendy & Lisa, well if they're the reason Purple Rain was so huge, why didn't their own records have the same impact? Oh I forgot, Prince hooked them up first.

MadamGoodnight said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think that is the 'wendy & lisa' sound

Lisa was creating with Prince since Dirty Mind she's also a jazz pianist

A lot of the music on SOTT/Dream Factory time In A Large Room, Power Fantastic(a Lisa composition) was music that came about with Prince's use of Lisa Wendy

A lot of the Purple Rain sound is as well

In this car I driveI'm looking for the road that leads back to the soul we sharedWith my very lifeI'd gladly be the body upon the cross we bear(Cross we bear)
How did we ever lose communication?(How did we?)How did we ever lose each other's sound?(I don't know)Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situationMaybe we can stop the rain from coming down

OF4S that is why I gave Lisa separate credit. I do like her contributions, but the two together are not my favorite "sound" from Prince. As I've said, 1999 was my favorite era. My favorite song from Purple Rain is The Beautiful Ones. Purple Rain was not my favorite from Prince either. It enhanced the movie, but I rarely play anything from PR outisde of The Beautiful Ones. To be honest, I was looking for 1999 Pt. 2 when Purple Rain came out. that is what the P fans that I know from then were looking for.

The songs from W&L that fans always name, Raspberry Beret, SISIA are not songs that I like anyway.

Lisa always been my favorite among the two and I am blessed she is following me on twitter and add me on my facebook page. She have a very distinct sound and I love her classical kick solo toward the end of When Doves Cry and Power Fantasic brilliant piece. At times I feel she is modest of her greatness and I wish she get more acknowledge with her awesome skills without always be connected with Wendy. If two people should have gotten some co-writing credit should had been Lisa and her brother late David Coleman, instead of Wendy and Lisa, they had heavy influence on that song with the string arrangement that was why even back in 1998, I gave Wendy a side eye when she claimed her and Lisa wrote PR. When I read her interviews at times Wendy personality rubs the wrong way, she wants to be the control and arrogant and center of attention and often times jump in when Lisa try to speak and I would rather hear from Lisa than Wendy any day but nevertheless I dont dislike her or anything, and she is very talent at her own right too and I do admire her not was being imitated of Prince but, I am just telling like it is.

I agree with you that when I listen to AWIAD, I expected PR part two. I was too young to live the 80s but I became a fan in the 90s, and I rent that AWIAD tape from the library and after I heard it the first time (this was couple days after I seen Purple Rain the first time and I love the movie) I nearly risk pissing off mom off as she might had shell out some my by paying the rental fee, I was getting ready to destroy that tape and I was very disappointed of that AWIAD album. But over the years I appreciated the album but still not one of my favorites.

Timmy84 said:

Haven't seen Pete in a couple of years, I guess this is him commenting on Channel 5 Big Brother?

NouveauDance said:

Timmy84 said:

Haven't seen Pete in a couple of years, I guess this is him commenting on Channel 5 Big Brother?

OldFriends4Sale said:

ladygirl99 said:

You misread some of my post all I am saying that despite Wendy and Lisa always have a place in the Purple Rain era but Purple Rain was likely going to be successful with or without them due to his star status and majority of the PR album was done by him the final product. That is the truth.

As far as Computer Blue you are making a big deal off their contribution than what it is but I do understand they were mad at not getting the deserved co-writing with Purple Rain (yes I remember all the madness back in 1998 on Google Group how Prince taunted them with that Lendy/Wisa cryptic on his official website after that interview they made). What is funny is they play Purple Rain, Mountains, Sometimes it Snow In April in their past concerts indicate they heavily co-wrote those songs yet those songs other than PR werent popular hits nor made Prince popular. And just because a bandmember came with a chord Prince could use that influence and create into his sound, so that is much debate if he did was stealing or influence. But all musicians influence each other Im a creative artist myself so I know. It just like if I get a storyline idea from an author about aliens invaded at the high school and young female teen is the focus then I use that idea by changing the plot of aliens invade some middle school by changing the city but the plot involves some young girl and her friend should I get that author that co writing credit when I just was influence by the idea? But some fans acting like Prince influence is stealing or indicate he is incapible making great music without so and so help him out.

U don't know if it would have been successful.

No different than Under the Cherry Moon. If 1 2 & 3 happened Under the Cherry Moon could have been huge.

If 1 2 & 3 didn't happen Purple Rain could have been a flop.

Sure of course the 'final' product Prince is going polish it up for the album, But truthfully 6 out of the 9 songs were a collabrative effort to various degrees. Even Apollonia can't take credit for her vocals cause Prince had Lisa sing underneath her to strengthen her part without making it sound like someone else.

And If I said Prince is 'stealing' from other correct me. But I never said he 'stole' from anyone of them. You should take that up with the individual that said it.

I've said over and over in this thread that I see Prince like a sun with his band members & proteges as moons reflecting his light.

Just as some fans also doesn't know how much influence that a bandmember has on a song only Prince knows. I am sure you aware Prince is very private. Look, I am not knocking down the experience that his bandmembers had told in interviews but again they were telling their side of the story, and since neither of us fans are actually there, we cant assumed their statements are absolutely factual just like 2elijah said.

But I was just point out to OP that Prince was likely still going to be successful based on his solo efforts he made on his popular songs. It just some fans cant acknowledge Prince create some great songs (in his golden era based on lot of the orgers) and popular songs without mention of Wendy and Lisa but always failed to mention or downplay his other bandmembers and other musicians around that time. Not naming names.

Timmy84 said:

@ the OP saying funk is dead. Whatever, funk is still alive.

As for Wendy & Lisa, well if they're the reason Purple Rain was so huge, why didn't their own records have the same impact? Oh I forgot, Prince hooked them up first.

Timmy84 who said W&L are the reason Purple Rain was huge?

I've always expected you to be on the up n up, I know you're not creating strawmen

OldFriends4Sale said:

Timmy84 said:

@ the OP saying funk is dead. Whatever, funk is still alive.

As for Wendy & Lisa, well if they're the reason Purple Rain was so huge, why didn't their own records have the same impact? Oh I forgot, Prince hooked them up first.

Timmy84 who said W&L are the reason Purple Rain was huge?

I've always expected you to be on the up n up, I know you're not creating strawmen

I didn't say they WERE the only reason. Maybe I meant partially. But you know Andre and Dez could've easily been a part of Purple Rain, come on now.

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

No no not at all no anger here at all

It's just that I said some specific thing just in general question about 'fate' how things work out or not.

Some things yes its fact that he wrote those songs about susannah, alot of it does come from those close in his camp. The creation of the Beautiful Ones is factual too. the creation of the Family was surrounding utilizing Susannahs vocal skills and Eric Leeds sax skills the project was a love child of Prince's. hmmm Susannah's Pajamas non studio live rendition called Susannahs Blues. Prince came very close to marrying her and to speculate that he would not write songs about this woman and for this woman.... He continued to work with her even after letting Wendy go then she finally had enough of what was happening. Empty Room, Wally-Susan Rogers factual statements etc etc

No the reason I said that was to say you are a unique individual. Just like in this group you bring a specific perspective to the group and you have certain focuses of life that show up in your posts. I don't think that anyone could have sparked Prince's creativity for those songs. Because Susannah is a unique individual. Same way he wrote a song called Wonderful Ass about Vanity. It was their quirky relationship that sparked it. Jill Jones - She's Always in My Hair. Could just anyone have filled Sheila E's shoes just because they played percussion? No, we would have had a totally different piece of history. If Jesse fronted the Time would it have worked? Probably would have been a totally different kind of band, especially since he could play guitar and Morris couldn't

Yes I understand how 'fate' could bring people together even if somehow by some small measure--a moment, a chance encounter, etc., but....I still cannot give W&L 'full' credit for Prince's total fame or popularity. They were contributors to his music/performance career, as Susannah, Sheila E, Cat, just to name a few, but they were/are not the main source of his creative, music skills or the main reason behind his success, especially when there were other musicians/artists he collaborated with prior to W&L, and after their release from his band. Again, no one is putting down W&L's talents as musicians, I just don't feel they are solely responsible for Prince's popularity.

I'm sure there are many musicians/artists who make songs about their relationships/loved ones/exes, etc., who have been inspirations for musicians to write a song about , but that doesn't mean all were/are the reason or main source for a musician's total success or popularity. Bruce Springsteen could have written 5 songs about his pet dog, should the dog be the reason for his popularity and success as a musician? As far as being 'unique', well isn't everybody? We're all individuals with our own 'uniqueness' if such a term exists. I didn't see Prince roll up in a fetal position and end his music career, once Susannah, W&L, and others were no longer part of his future stage performances or had absolutely no input in his future recordings/releases. I view him as a musician who moved on with his life and continued his music career.

lol 2Elijah ur beating that dead horse with me, I will nor have I ever given W&L full credit for Prince's total fame. Your talking to some who loves 'Princehistory' I love the story of his beginnings especially. It's clear Prince had a lot of people on his side and in his camp that contributed. Why do you keep saying with me that they are not responsible with Prince's fame?

I seems like you are avoiding what I'm saying. I hear what you are saying. Why would you say '...Prince roll up in a fetal position...' I never said his career was over after they left. It's clear it's not over. If your reply is about what someone else said then that confuses things because it seems you're comment on my thoughts.

And I will say that up to Graffiti Bridge even though the Revolution years were over most of the best songs on that album even Chocolate with the Time was done during the 1981(Tick Tick Bang) - the Dream Factory sessions. Eye No was a Prince & the Revolution jam (Ball) Joy In Repetition, and others. Power Fantastic when was that released? That was the whole Revolution with him on that one Atlanta and Eric too

What I was saying is (and this doesn't refute that PRince is doing Prince still) that certain things would not have happened if key people were not there. ex:Soft n Wet would not have been written if Chris Moon wasn't there Wonderful Ass would not have been written if he wasn't in a rel with Vanity Movie Star would not have been written if Morris wasn't his friend joined the Time and left the Time etc

Prince wouldn't have written In This Bed I Scream if his chemistry with Lisa & Wendy was not important to him. years later

Timmy84 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Timmy84 who said W&L are the reason Purple Rain was huge?

I've always expected you to be on the up n up, I know you're not creating strawmen

I didn't say they WERE the only reason. Maybe I meant partially. But you know Andre and Dez could've easily been a part of Purple Rain, come on now.

As for Wendy & Lisa, well if they're the reason Purple Rain was so huge

lol um you sorta did, I mean where did you get that from?

I don't think they could have easily done it, maybe them being women made the part more sympathetic. Would the Computer Blue scene be Dez, yes Lisa is the water warm enough? Yes Lisa, shall we begin? Yes Lisa,

Would Dez later have gotten on his knees and given Prince guitar head?

According to the origin script Prince had Wendy because there was to be a similar look, it said something about Prince givng himself head. That twin thing again.

The sentiment kiss during Purple Rain, would that have worked with Dez?

OldFriends4Sale said:

Timmy84 said:

I didn't say they WERE the only reason. Maybe I meant partially. But you know Andre and Dez could've easily been a part of Purple Rain, come on now.

As for Wendy & Lisa, well if they're the reason Purple Rain was so huge

lol um you sorta did, I mean where did you get that from?

I don't think they could have easily done it, maybe them being women made the part more sympathetic. Would the Computer Blue scene be Dez, yes Lisa is the water warm enough? Yes Lisa, shall we begin? Yes Lisa,

Would Dez later have gotten on his knees and given Prince guitar head?

According to the origin script Prince had Wendy because there was to be a similar look, it said something about Prince givng himself head. That twin thing again.

The sentiment kiss during Purple Rain, would that have worked with Dez?

Just because of "Computer Blue"? That's one song mayne.

Timmy84 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

As for Wendy & Lisa, well if they're the reason Purple Rain was so huge

lol um you sorta did, I mean where did you get that from?

I don't think they could have easily done it, maybe them being women made the part more sympathetic. Would the Computer Blue scene be Dez, yes Lisa is the water warm enough? Yes Lisa, shall we begin? Yes Lisa,

Would Dez later have gotten on his knees and given Prince guitar head?

According to the origin script Prince had Wendy because there was to be a similar look, it said something about Prince givng himself head. That twin thing again.

The sentiment kiss during Purple Rain, would that have worked with Dez?

Just because of "Computer Blue"? That's one song mayne.

lol 2 scenes that were very important lol come one the guitar blow job was huge

and the 'Fathers song' into Computer Blue transition with "Wendy? Yes lisa" and Wendy's guitar screech was dangerous, that linn drum popping hottt

OldFriends4Sale said:

Timmy84 said:

Just because of "Computer Blue"? That's one song mayne.

lol 2 scenes that were very important lol come one the guitar blow job was huge

and the 'Fathers song' into Computer Blue transition with "Wendy? Yes lisa" and Wendy's guitar screech was dangerous, that linn drum popping hottt

You just loved to see two women getting it on. They were known lesbians after all!

Not that that's a problem because I dig two women simulating sex and everything. But that's not exactly an Oscar worthy moment (although it could be argued Morris Day had the most Oscar-worthy moments of the entire film alongside Clarence Williams III lol). That could've been something Prince organized his damn self like "Wendy, go down on me", "Lisa, say this, Wendy say that."

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

Yes I understand how 'fate' could bring people together even if somehow by some small measure--a moment, a chance encounter, etc., but....I still cannot give W&L 'full' credit for Prince's total fame or popularity. They were contributors to his music/performance career, as Susannah, Sheila E, Cat, just to name a few, but they were/are not the main source of his creative, music skills or the main reason behind his success, especially when there were other musicians/artists he collaborated with prior to W&L, and after their release from his band. Again, no one is putting down W&L's talents as musicians, I just don't feel they are solely responsible for Prince's popularity.

I'm sure there are many musicians/artists who make songs about their relationships/loved ones/exes, etc., who have been inspirations for musicians to write a song about , but that doesn't mean all were/are the reason or main source for a musician's total success or popularity. Bruce Springsteen could have written 5 songs about his pet dog, should the dog be the reason for his popularity and success as a musician? As far as being 'unique', well isn't everybody? We're all individuals with our own 'uniqueness' if such a term exists. I didn't see Prince roll up in a fetal position and end his music career, once Susannah, W&L, and others were no longer part of his future stage performances or had absolutely no input in his future recordings/releases. I view him as a musician who moved on with his life and continued his music career.

lol 2Elijah ur beating that dead horse with me, I will nor have I ever given W&L full credit for Prince's total fame. Your talking to some who loves 'Princehistory' I love the story of his beginnings especially. It's clear Prince had a lot of people on his side and in his camp that contributed. Why do you keep saying with me that they are not responsible with Prince's fame?

I seems like you are avoiding what I'm saying. I hear what you are saying. Why would you say '...Prince roll up in a fetal position...' I never said his career was over after they left. It's clear it's not over. If your reply is about what someone else said then that confuses things because it seems you're comment on my thoughts.

And I will say that up to Graffiti Bridge even though the Revolution years were over most of the best songs on that album even Chocolate with the Time was done during the 1981(Tick Tick Bang) - the Dream Factory sessions. Eye No was a Prince & the Revolution jam (Ball) Joy In Repetition, and others. Power Fantastic when was that released? That was the whole Revolution with him on that one Atlanta and Eric too

What I was saying is (and this doesn't refute that PRince is doing Prince still) that certain things would not have happened if key people were not there. ex:Soft n Wet would not have been written if Chris Moon wasn't there Wonderful Ass would not have been written if he wasn't in a rel with Vanity Movie Star would not have been written if Morris wasn't his friend joined the Time and left the Time etc

Prince wouldn't have written In This Bed I Scream if his chemistry with Lisa & Wendy was not important to him. years later

Of4s, I don't have any reason to avoid what you're expressing in your posts, just because I may not agree with some of what you have posted. I just see it a different way than you do. Also, I don't deny you're a self-proclaimed Prince historian, based on all the information you've posted on this forum over the years, about his music career from the beginning to present day.

I get the point about the many band members, friends, etc., that may have inspired him, but I can't say any of them are the main source of his music influence and inspiration, unless he told that to you personally, because there were already, well known musicians/artists he gained inspiration and influence from pertaining to his music, and he pretty much stated that at shows he's performed at, and mentioned some of them during his Paisley Park concert, according to some fans who attended that show in 2009. I'm sure well before he collaborated with his own band members. and music career, it's no question, he's been influenced by the music of Jimi Hendrix, James Brown, Chuck Berry, Ike Turner, Joni Mitchell, Sly Stone, Santana, just to name a few, and you hear it in his music. When I hear or see Prince perform, those are some of the musicians/artists I hear in a lot of his music.

When I made the 'fetal' position comment, that was to point out, despite the many musicians/artists, friends, etc., that were part of his life or contributed to his music career, back then, that you've mentioned in your post, and how you basically claimed that 'fate' brought them together and that if any of them, never walked into his life at that time, then fans would not have been granted the opportunity to hear many of the classic songs you've mentioned, he's written for some of those personal friends, well....I don't want to raise your blood pressure, but guess what? Where are they in his life right 'now', musically, socially or spiritually on a consistent basis, as his personal friends? Part of his band? (with the exception of a handful of a few from that past who performed in his concerts/band on 'several' occasionss, i.e. Sheila E), regardless if he may have written songs about a few of them in the past? Apparently not, because it seems he chose a different path later in his life spiritually, socially and musically without them, moved on and continued with his music career. That's what I was pointing out. Can we say his personal decision to do the latter, may have been based on 'fate' too? Probably.

[Edited 1/16/12 18:13pm]

CrabalockerFishwife said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

Yes I understand how 'fate' could bring people together even if somehow by some small measure--a moment, a chance encounter, etc., but....I still cannot give W&L 'full' credit for Prince's total fame or popularity. They were contributors to his music/performance career, as Susannah, Sheila E, Cat, just to name a few, but they were/are not the main source of his creative, music skills or the main reason behind his success, especially when there were other musicians/artists he collaborated with prior to W&L, and after their release from his band. Again, no one is putting down W&L's talents as musicians, I just don't feel they are solely responsible for Prince's popularity.

I'm sure there are many musicians/artists who make songs about their relationships/loved ones/exes, etc., who have been inspirations for musicians to write a song about , but that doesn't mean all were/are the reason or main source for a musician's total success or popularity. Bruce Springsteen could have written 5 songs about his pet dog, should the dog be the reason for his popularity and success as a musician? As far as being 'unique', well isn't everybody? We're all individuals with our own 'uniqueness' if such a term exists. I didn't see Prince roll up in a fetal position and end his music career, once Susannah, W&L, and others were no longer part of his future stage performances or had absolutely no input in his future recordings/releases. I view him as a musician who moved on with his life and continued his music career.

lol 2Elijah ur beating that dead horse with me, I will nor have I ever given W&L full credit for Prince's total fame. Your talking to some who loves 'Princehistory' I love the story of his beginnings especially. It's clear Prince had a lot of people on his side and in his camp that contributed. Why do you keep saying with me that they are not responsible with Prince's fame?

I seems like you are avoiding what I'm saying. I hear what you are saying. Why would you say '...Prince roll up in a fetal position...' I never said his career was over after they left. It's clear it's not over. If your reply is about what someone else said then that confuses things because it seems you're comment on my thoughts.

And I will say that up to Graffiti Bridge even though the Revolution years were over most of the best songs on that album even Chocolate with the Time was done during the 1981(Tick Tick Bang) - the Dream Factory sessions. Eye No was a Prince & the Revolution jam (Ball) Joy In Repetition, and others. Power Fantastic when was that released? That was the whole Revolution with him on that one Atlanta and Eric too

What I was saying is (and this doesn't refute that PRince is doing Prince still) that certain things would not have happened if key people were not there. ex:Soft n Wet would not have been written if Chris Moon wasn't there Wonderful Ass would not have been written if he wasn't in a rel with Vanity Movie Star would not have been written if Morris wasn't his friend joined the Time and left the Time etc

Prince wouldn't have written In This Bed I Scream if his chemistry with Lisa & Wendy was not important to him. years later

Prince and other people like him in the music business that live in mansions and fly around the world in private Jet's, but are always bitchin about how the evil record companies RIP THEM OFF, is really what the post is about.

My point is that Warner Bros, as his LABEL, was there to make sure he created marketable, popular music.

It's my opinion that Wendy,Lisa, and many other people were necessary for him to fulfill his contractual obligations.

To me it's the reason why his music changed in not a very good way once he got rid of Warner.

His EGO did him in.

Oh...this is one of THOSE threads.

afro75 said:

Oh...this is one of THOSE threads.

Yeah and look at the views.

Timmy84 said:

afro75 said:

Oh...this is one of THOSE threads.

Yeah and look at the views.

lol people complain about these but they sure do like these kind of debates

alexandernevamind said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

lol 2Elijah ur beating that dead horse with me, I will nor have I ever given W&L full credit for Prince's total fame. Your talking to some who loves 'Princehistory' I love the story of his beginnings especially. It's clear Prince had a lot of people on his side and in his camp that contributed. Why do you keep saying with me that they are not responsible with Prince's fame?

I seems like you are avoiding what I'm saying. I hear what you are saying. Why would you say '...Prince roll up in a fetal position...' I never said his career was over after they left. It's clear it's not over. If your reply is about what someone else said then that confuses things because it seems you're comment on my thoughts.

And I will say that up to Graffiti Bridge even though the Revolution years were over most of the best songs on that album even Chocolate with the Time was done during the 1981(Tick Tick Bang) - the Dream Factory sessions. Eye No was a Prince & the Revolution jam (Ball) Joy In Repetition, and others. Power Fantastic when was that released? That was the whole Revolution with him on that one Atlanta and Eric too

What I was saying is (and this doesn't refute that PRince is doing Prince still) that certain things would not have happened if key people were not there. ex:Soft n Wet would not have been written if Chris Moon wasn't there Wonderful Ass would not have been written if he wasn't in a rel with Vanity Movie Star would not have been written if Morris wasn't his friend joined the Time and left the Time etc

Prince wouldn't have written In This Bed I Scream if his chemistry with Lisa & Wendy was not important to him. years later

Prince and other people like him in the music business that live in mansions and fly around the world in private Jet's, but are always bitchin about how the evil record companies RIP THEM OFF, is really what the post is about.

My point is that Warner Bros, as his LABEL, was there to make sure he created marketable, popular music.

It's my opinion that Wendy,Lisa, and many other people were necessary for him to fulfill his contractual obligations.

To me it's the reason why his music changed in not a very good way once he got rid of Warner.

His EGO did him in.

Well, that's a slave for you

Timmy84 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Timmy84 who said W&L are the reason Purple Rain was huge?

I've always expected you to be on the up n up, I know you're not creating strawmen

I didn't say they WERE the only reason. Maybe I meant partially. But you know Andre and Dez could've easily been a part of Purple Rain, come on now.

Agreed, the band The Revolution as a whole