hhhhdmt said:

and by the way, Prince wrote Kiss, its a balant lie that it was written by someone else. The Arrangement was properly credited.

Prince wouldn't have written the purple rain music without wendy and lisa? Well he did write When Doves Cry and The Beautiful ones without them so that argument is complete nonsense.

I totally agreed I think this OP did this just to stirr up 15th round of Prince vs W/L debate. I read and Wendy always maintain her and Lisa had bigger creative influence on Purple Rain title track, not the album, sometimes people get confused with the two. The other songs in the album done by Prince alone or some of the bandmembers were told to play their parts and singing background. Wendy siad herself the title track was the group effort. Prince did majority of Purple Rain songs alone and he might give his bandmembers credit too just to help them financial but I strongly believe since Wendy and Lisa in the past play Purple Rain, Mountains, and Sometimes It Snow In April, they were their babies. Wendy even said Prince was pure genuis for him came up with When Doves Cry his popular hit to date, especially with no bass line. So that is another point there that Prince still be popular since the bandmembers had little input on his hit songs.

I am a W&L fan but I dont kiss their asses nor overexaggeraed their contributions. Same goes for Prince.

luv4u said:

Artists use from other artists all the time, so what's the big deal?

Exactly. I just dont like how some people downplay his talents just because oh my gosh even genuises tend to get influence by others but use what they learn into creating their own music vibes.

luv4u said:

Artists use from other artists all the time, so what's the big deal?

2elijah said:

I disagree. W&L would not have been popular (mostly to many Prince fans) if it wasn't for Prince. Their involvement as band members in the movie is the only reason they, as well as other band members who were in that movie, are more known to Prince fans moreso than those band members that became part of his band, long after the movie was made, as well as current band members.

Secondly, many musicians/artists borrow (not steal) a little off one another's style, because most musicians/artists are fans of musicians/artists that came before them. It's not unusual that musicians/artists borrow off one anothers's sound and can take that music and create something else out of it, so I don't really see anything new about what you're stating here. There's two sides to every story and if you only hear one side of a story, then you don't have all the facts, when it comes to musicians/artists stating they've been used by either a record label/executive or another musician. I like hearing from 'all sides' before I base what I hear from rumors or only one side of the story.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's right for any musician/artist to use or abuse another's talent or to not give them credit for their input in another musician's work, just better to draw a conclusion when all the facts and truths behind these type stories are put on the table.

[Edited 1/15/12 11:56am]

Amen!

alexandernevamind said:

Yes Prince is talented but come on, we all know he couldn't have written the music to Purple Rain without Wendy and Lisa and a cast of other people.

No we don't, and yes not only he could but he did. All the Revolution members admitted that Prince's music was 99% his despite their contributions here and there, and that having them or another band probably wouldn't have changed much about the whole thing. Wendy & Lisa never claimed that Prince has stolen anything from them, except for one single song (Power Fantastic).

Only bad thing for them is that he refuses to give anybody else credit but himself and most of them couldn't afford to sue him afterwards.

He actually gave credits where credits were due in most situations, and on the other hand, particularly at this time, he gave credits when credit was not due, crediting his musicians and his side-projects' musicians for things they hadn't done. While there are maybe 5 songs where it is known that due credits were not given, there are probably a hundred songs where he gave credits when he actually had done everything. Who then knew that the three "Prince And The Revolution" albums were mostly Prince alone in the studio? Not too many people... I can tell you from memory which few songs had Prince "stealing" credits, but on the other hand I'd have to do some research if I had to quote all the songs he hidden his involvement from. The most influence Prince's musicians had was actually through the music they made him listen to, not the music they made...

("Kiss" was written by a group called Mazarati).

No it wasn't, it was written and composed by Prince, and arranged with additional lyrics added by David Z., who was producing Mazarati. One could argue that David should have received co-writing credits, since he added some lyrics, but David himself said that he was fine by the way things went, mostly because he owned his whole career to Prince, and that he was grateful for that. Mazarati had little to do with the creative process in itself, even though they were in the studio when it happened and despite the band's singer later expressing anger about that whole thing, but nonetheless I don't think anyone involved ever considered suing Prince about this, whether they could afford it or not.

A lot of people in the music business use their starpower to get people to work for them for little or nothing.These people are usually new to the business and are just really excited to be working with the star.

Pretty soon though, reality kicks in and they realize they've been used.When they start asking for what's owed them, they usually get fired.

I don't remember Prince ever firing anyone for anything related to money and credits. He certainly did fire some people in a somewhat unfair manner, but it was more about ego, complicated relationships or wanting to change his band's sound. Some musicians later said they were underpaid, and they probably were, but many other got massive royalties or bonus checks. And the only case I know of where musicians sued for royalties (Levi and Tony) happened after they had left Prince's camp.

Prince is at the age where he could really make some great music by collabing with other artist.I would love to hear him on a record with Santana, Herbie Hancock,Stevie,Alicia Keys,Estelle,Miguel,

Adele,Beyonce,Neyo,Chris Brown.I'd actually start buying his music again.

I think he doesn't give a shit wheither u buy his music or not. In case you don't know he's a multi-millionaire.

He might get on stage with these artist but why can't he make a record with them? Is it a money issue? Is he afraid of being upstaged?

Obviously, he just doesn't care or feels the need to.

Why has his music sucked in the last 10 years?

It's a purely subjective statement.

I love Prince but I think it's time somebody called him out on this.

That whole bullshit has been called out 100 times on this forum...

Google Gabi Wilson, she's the future of music.

What does it have to do with anything?

With all due respect, i suggest you read the massive quantity of documentation that's been published about Prince's career and his creative process, and then come back here to discuss your opinion about the facts you've read about.

Peace

[Edited 1/16/12 3:23am]

TheDigitalGardener said:

rdhull said:

Hey Alex..did you know that Prince was once onstage with Michael Jackson and James Brown?

alexandernevamind said:

CrabalockerFishwife said:

I noticed that too. It seemed to me like it's just a fan trying to prove that Prince sucks now, just because they haven't liked his recent music.

Gabi Wilson doesn't need PRINCE.ORG TO PROMOTE HER, I think that's what a record label does.I'm just her fan and think she's on her way to greatness.

Well, considering how many threads u created here about her, and how little you contributed anything regarding Prince, one might wonder

I deeply the music by Wendy & Lisa - their 3 first albums >>> amazing,

What they did with "Prince's music", like Mountains, Sometimes It Snows In April, Raspberry Beret and more - is stunning.

I see no problem,

completely OK; if Prince stole ideas from those amazing girls, that would be fine with me.....

I love W&L... just not their 2 latest albums..

ladygirl99 said:

luv4u said:

Artists use from other artists all the time, so what's the big deal?

Exactly. I just dont like how some people downplay his talents just because oh my gosh even genuises tend to get influence by others but use what they learn into creating their own music vibes.

I hear you. It's almost like saying he has no talent without them, when he was known long before W&L joined the band. They're musicians who contributed their creativity to some of Prince's work, but they are not Prince, and they are not responsible for his musical talent/gifts. I really think some fans took the 'Purple Rain' movie like the bible and have it written in stone, that W&L were to be permanent band members in Prince's music career. The name of the former Prince and the Revolution tells you right there, that Prince's name was always 'separate' and stood out from the bandmembers, so there was never any guarantee the Revolution bandmembers were going to be permanent fixtures glued to Prince's future music career. He always had his name out there as the main feature/headliner musician/artist of the band, even with his first backup bandmembers.

I think many fans forget that he let a lot of light shine on W&L when they were part of the Revolution, moreso than some of the other bandmembers, so how is that not 'giving them credit' when they became known during that era because he gave them a lot of exposure on stage with him, as musicians/artists, even though it was Prince who was the main feature of his band, and the musician/artist most fans came to see at those shows/concerts during that era. He did the same with members of the Lovesexy era, giving major exposure to 'Sheila E' and 'Cat' during their time with him, even both Sheila E and Cat, had careers before they joined Prince's band.

It's not all the time bandmembers get that type of exposure, with a well-known artist on stage, who is the actual headliner. Even in the 'Purple Rain' movie, W&L were given more speaking lines, and their characters given more exposure and highlighted moreso, than the other members of the Revolution in the movie, as well as, their names called out in the classic songs of that era, where they gave their creative input with Prince. So again, I don't see how the OP can dare say Prince didn't give them credit, when they were given more than enough credit in many ways, during their time with him, and became known because of him. Thing is, he continues to 'highlight' the talents of other musicians/artists that have become part of his band or join him as guests on stage, while he takes a back seat.

Now how far they took their careers post-Prince, was up to them. They have been involved in creating music for cable shows, and collaborating with other artists since then, and performing shows on their own. They have even sung songs from the 'Purple Rain' era on stage, minus Prince, so it doesn't seem like they are barred from singing songs where they had creative input with Prince, post-Prince. Not to mention, that the many of their fans are directly from Prince's fan base, so they continue to reap the benefits of that as well as other former, band associates.

[Edited 1/16/12 7:17am]

ladygirl99 said:

hhhhdmt said:

and by the way, Prince wrote Kiss, its a balant lie that it was written by someone else. The Arrangement was properly credited.

Prince wouldn't have written the purple rain music without wendy and lisa? Well he did write When Doves Cry and The Beautiful ones without them so that argument is complete nonsense.

I totally agreed I think this OP did this just to stirr up 15th round of Prince vs W/L debate. I read and Wendy always maintain her and Lisa had bigger creative influence on Purple Rain title track, not the album, sometimes people get confused with the two. The other songs in the album done by Prince alone or some of the bandmembers were told to play their parts and singing background. Wendy siad herself the title track was the group effort. Prince did majority of Purple Rain songs alone and he might give his bandmembers credit too just to help them financial but I strongly believe since Wendy and Lisa in the past play Purple Rain, Mountains, and Sometimes It Snow In April, they were their babies. Wendy even said Prince was pure genuis for him came up with When Doves Cry his popular hit to date, especially with no bass line. So that is another point there that Prince still be popular since the bandmembers had little input on his hit songs.

I am a W&L fan but I dont kiss their asses nor overexaggeraed their contributions. Same goes for Prince.

I have a mp3 Chicago Public Radio:Sound Opinions 2009 with Lisa Coleman & Wendy Melvoin, Lisa has always been very factual and honest about Prince and work, who did what etc etc On this interview she talks about the making of the purple rain music and that most of the songs were a group collaboration, that When Doves Cry, the Beautiful Ones and Darling Nikki is all Prince

I've been reading everyones opinions and on both sides everyone has valid truthful points.

I think it a matter of 'fate'. If Joe Jackson wasn't who he was and that family come from a JW background etc would Michael Jackson be as big as he was? would he have been bigger if some of those things did not take place etc

the Beautiful Ones is a song Prince made 4 his want of Susannah Melvoin. Would that song ever have been created if Wendy didn't have a twin sister? G-Spot & Electic Intercourse were 2 be in that place.

Chris Moon was the one that actually got Prince on a more sexual road, cowriting Soft & Wet with him, if Chris Moon hadn't come into Prince's life would he have gone into the direction we knew him to go into.

very interesting ideas, 'what if' If Prince had a bunch of peole in the 1980-1986 years who came and went, who weren't really about Prince but about doing there own thing how long would it have taken Prince to be huge?

If he didn't love Susannah would we have some of the most beautiful music from 1984-1988 song that were dedicated to her that were released years later.... interesting conversation this has become for me.

Just in life in general you could have 100 friends but there tends to be 1 or 2 that stand out and that just bring out the best in you (directly & indirectly) Dark life experiences in some people bring out some of the most creative periods of their life. Whereas some people who float through life at times live very under the radar lifes.

Prince at that time was very good at bringing out the best (and in some cases the worst) in People. His choice in putting Morris Day in front vs Jesse Johnson was very thought out. Vanity created a very cohesive sexiness with Susan & Brenda that Apollonia could not duplicate. Vanity owned that position. Prince made a good choice with those 3, better treatment of he could have had another level/album of higher protege output from them. good decisions & bad decisions. But overall he had a lot of people who liked being where they were so Prince could pull from them the best quality.

OldFriends4Sale said:

ladygirl99 said:

I totally agreed I think this OP did this just to stirr up 15th round of Prince vs W/L debate. I read and Wendy always maintain her and Lisa had bigger creative influence on Purple Rain title track, not the album, sometimes people get confused with the two. The other songs in the album done by Prince alone or some of the bandmembers were told to play their parts and singing background. Wendy siad herself the title track was the group effort. Prince did majority of Purple Rain songs alone and he might give his bandmembers credit too just to help them financial but I strongly believe since Wendy and Lisa in the past play Purple Rain, Mountains, and Sometimes It Snow In April, they were their babies. Wendy even said Prince was pure genuis for him came up with When Doves Cry his popular hit to date, especially with no bass line. So that is another point there that Prince still be popular since the bandmembers had little input on his hit songs.

I am a W&L fan but I dont kiss their asses nor overexaggeraed their contributions. Same goes for Prince.

I have a mp3 Chicago Public Radio:Sound Opinions 2009 with Lisa Coleman & Wendy Melvoin, Lisa has always been very factual and honest about Prince and work, who did what etc etc On this interview she talks about the making of the purple rain music and that most of the songs were a group collaboration, that When Doves Cry, the Beautiful Ones and Darling Nikki is all Prince

I've been reading everyones opinions and on both sides everyone has valid truthful points.

I think it a matter of 'fate'. If Joe Jackson wasn't who he was and that family come from a JW background etc would Michael Jackson be as big as he was? would he have been bigger if some of those things did not take place etc

the Beautiful Ones is a song Prince made 4 his want of Susannah Melvoin. Would that song ever have been created if Wendy didn't have a twin sister? G-Spot & Electic Intercourse were 2 be in that place.

Chris Moon was the one that actually got Prince on a more sexual road, cowriting Soft & Wet with him, if Chris Moon hadn't come into Prince's life would he have gone into the direction we knew him to go into.

very interesting ideas, 'what if' If Prince had a bunch of peole in the 1980-1986 years who came and went, who weren't really about Prince but about doing there own thing how long would it have taken Prince to be huge?

If he didn't love Susannah would we have some of the most beautiful music from 1984-1988 song that were dedicated to her that were released years later.... interesting conversation this has become for me.

Just in life in general you could have 100 friends but there tends to be 1 or 2 that stand out and that just bring out the best in you (directly & indirectly) Dark life experiences in some people bring out some of the most creative periods of their life. Whereas some people who float through life at times live very under the radar lifes.

Prince at that time was very good at bringing out the best (and in some cases the worst) in People. His choice in putting Morris Day in front vs Jesse Johnson was very thought out. Vanity created a very cohesive sexiness with Susan & Brenda that Apollonia could not duplicate. Vanity owned that position. Prince made a good choice with those 3, better treatment of he could have had another level/album of higher protege output from them. good decisions & bad decisions. But overall he had a lot of people who liked being where they were so Prince could pull from them the best quality.

I don't think anyone is denying that W&L had some creative input in the songs of that era with Prince and made some suggestions, but at the end of the day, they are not Prince and never will be. I'm sorry, and no disrespect, but I'm not giving them a crown to wear, especially if they are not deserving of it. I appreciate their conributions as musicians and their collaboration with Prince and the classic songs that they contributed to, but you can't deny that he had his musical talent long before they became members of his band. As far as some songs you say he wrote for Susannah, well, she could have been replaced with any other female, he could have written a song for. I'm sorry but W&L are getting more credit than they should, from fans who seem to believe that W&L made Prince, which they didn't. They may have given some creative input during the Purple Rain era, but they were not responsible for his musical talents. It is said that Betty-Mabry (Davis), contributed her input/inspiations/suggestions to some of Miles' music, but she is not responsible for the creative, music skills that Miles already owned, nor did he fail as a musician, when they were no longer together.

I get all your points. It's one thing to give inspiration or encouragement to a musician/artist but the output depends on how the musician/artist will project it to his audience. He was already writing music, shocking audiences with his stage presence and music, long before W&L joined the band.

[Edited 1/16/12 8:05am]

REALLY?! Smdh

Who contributes what to the past music can easily be estimated by their current music. Just listen to the latest from Wendy and Lisa and the latest from Prince. Also tally up the amount of songs post revolution each has done.

When The Beatles broke up it was easy to see who brought what to the table by looking at their solo albums and types of output.

The same could be said for Prince and Wendy/Lisa

So now we are supposed to give wendy credit for the beautiful ones simply because she has a sister? She had nothing to do with the song itself, and therefore deserves no credit for it. She does deserve credit for stuff like Mountains and SISIA but its this worsship of wendy and lisa that is annoying. They repeatedly get credit for songs they had nothing to do with, either by revolution fanboys or anti prince trolls.

ufoclub said:

Who contributes what to the past music can easily be estimated by their current music. Just listen to the latest from Wendy and Lisa and the latest from Prince. Also tally up the amount of songs post revolution each has done.

When The Beatles broke up it was easy to see who brought what to the table by looking at their solo albums and types of output.

The same could be said for Prince and Wendy/Lisa

(Highlighted part) Not really, because if it was announced that just W&L was doing a concert at MSG, the tix would not sell out in a 1/2 hour. Even if I listen to the latest from both Prince and W&L, Prince still comes out winning..no contest, and the bottom line is, what music one likes, depends on the individual's music tastes. Again, W&L are only known to Prince fans, whether new or old, because of their association with Prince in the Purple Rain movie and their time with Prince as former Revolution members.

I also wonder since when out of all his band members W&L is being compared to Prince, as though W&L are 'household names, legendary status and famous' and on the same level as Prince? You really think if W&L were called to perform at someplace like the Grammy's that sponsors would jump hoops to get adverstising time? Absolutely not, but if it was announced Prince would be playing they would...that's the difference between W&L....without Prince.

Again, my personal opinion of W&L is not to put them down. I respect them for their contributions during their time as Revolution members and whatever they contributed after, but again, they are not Prince nor are they the reason for his fame and hard work as a musician. I'm not buying that bs.

[Edited 1/16/12 8:35am]

ufoclub said:

Who contributes what to the past music can easily be estimated by their current music. Just listen to the latest from Wendy and Lisa and the latest from Prince. Also tally up the amount of songs post revolution each has done.

When The Beatles broke up it was easy to see who brought what to the table by looking at their solo albums and types of output.

The same could be said for Prince and Wendy/Lisa

I don't think W&L's latest output sound much like classic 80's Prince. But maybe that's your point?

hhhhdmt said:

So now we are supposed to give wendy credit for the beautiful ones simply because she has a sister? She had nothing to do with the song itself, and therefore deserves no credit for it. She does deserve credit for stuff like Mountains and SISIA but its this worsship of wendy and lisa that is annoying. They repeatedly get credit for songs they had nothing to do with, either by revolution fanboys or anti prince trolls.

U read my post with the wrong mindset.

I started just thinking about what could have been or what possibly would not have happened in a general.

This is not about taking or giving credit.

Just looking at how certain things and people at the right time(changed or added a course)

It's like I wonder what would Purple Rain (the era the tour the movie) had been like if Vanity was the girlfriend.

I don't see how you read me giving credit to the Beautiful Ones to Wendy, you just made a big ole mountain out of a mole hill lol

Totally blew something up by reading into my words what you wanted. Slow your roll son.

I'm the opposite. ATWIAD, UTCM are my least favorite albums from that time period. I liked the B sides, but still. I prefer the sound before and afterwards. I do love what Lisa contributed to the Stick, & other jams, but the Wendy and Lisa "sound" as a whole is not for me.

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I have a mp3 Chicago Public Radio:Sound Opinions 2009 with Lisa Coleman & Wendy Melvoin, Lisa has always been very factual and honest about Prince and work, who did what etc etc On this interview she talks about the making of the purple rain music and that most of the songs were a group collaboration, that When Doves Cry, the Beautiful Ones and Darling Nikki is all Prince

I've been reading everyones opinions and on both sides everyone has valid truthful points.

I think it a matter of 'fate'. If Joe Jackson wasn't who he was and that family come from a JW background etc would Michael Jackson be as big as he was? would he have been bigger if some of those things did not take place etc

the Beautiful Ones is a song Prince made 4 his want of Susannah Melvoin. Would that song ever have been created if Wendy didn't have a twin sister? G-Spot & Electic Intercourse were 2 be in that place.

Chris Moon was the one that actually got Prince on a more sexual road, cowriting Soft & Wet with him, if Chris Moon hadn't come into Prince's life would he have gone into the direction we knew him to go into.

very interesting ideas, 'what if' If Prince had a bunch of peole in the 1980-1986 years who came and went, who weren't really about Prince but about doing there own thing how long would it have taken Prince to be huge?

If he didn't love Susannah would we have some of the most beautiful music from 1984-1988 song that were dedicated to her that were released years later.... interesting conversation this has become for me.

Just in life in general you could have 100 friends but there tends to be 1 or 2 that stand out and that just bring out the best in you (directly & indirectly) Dark life experiences in some people bring out some of the most creative periods of their life. Whereas some people who float through life at times live very under the radar lifes.

Prince at that time was very good at bringing out the best (and in some cases the worst) in People. His choice in putting Morris Day in front vs Jesse Johnson was very thought out. Vanity created a very cohesive sexiness with Susan & Brenda that Apollonia could not duplicate. Vanity owned that position. Prince made a good choice with those 3, better treatment of he could have had another level/album of higher protege output from them. good decisions & bad decisions. But overall he had a lot of people who liked being where they were so Prince could pull from them the best quality.

I don't think anyone is denying that W&L had some creative input in the songs of that era with Prince and made some suggestions, but at the end of the day, they are not Prince and never will be. I'm sorry, and no disrespect, but I'm not giving them a crown to wear, especially if they are not deserving of it. I appreciate their conributions as musicians and their collaboration with Prince and the classic songs that they contributed to, but you can't deny that he had his musical talent long before they became members of his band. As far as some songs you say he wrote for Susannah, well, she could have been replaced with any other female, he could have written a song for. I'm sorry but W&L are getting more credit than they should, from fans who seem to believe that W&L made Prince, which they didn't. They may have given some creative input during the Purple Rain era, but they were not responsible for his musical talents. It is said that Betty-Mabry (Davis), contributed her input/inspiations/suggestions to some of Miles' music, but she is not responsible for the creative, music skills that Miles already owned, nor did he fail as a musician, when they were no longer together.

I get all your points. It's one thing to give inspiration or encouragement to a musician/artist but the output depends on how the musician/artist will project it to his audience. He was already writing music, shocking audiences with his stage presence and music, long before W&L joined the band.

I think U too have taken my post farther than what was intended. I understand you point and issue with people making W&L bigger than what they are, but that was not the intent of my post. No disrespect but I don't think you read it clearly with all the W&L stuff happening. And I'm big on seperating Lisa Colemans time and creative time with Prince since she was there to work with Prince for the Dirty Mind & the Time album.

Dez had a lot to do with Prince's early image, Prince borrowed a lot of his look from Dez, and that's ok. I love that raw image creativity they had.

U said some things that just doesn't apply to me. I've never indicated that Prince wasn't nor isn't talented. That makes no sense for me to say something like that. Of course other are saying it. But everything isn't black or white here.

Leave Wendy & Lisa out of this for a minute. Do you think that Cat had a level of creative energy with Prince that gave us the SOTT & Lovesexy shows? Could it really have been anyone else that gave us what we saw with them?

Could it really have been anyone else but the original Time & Vanity 6 that brought about the term 'Triple Threat'? No

U are an individual? Do you think if your mother had a female child with another husband that U would have still come out? No is the answer obviously.

Have you ever had 2 or more boyfriends/lovers? Has the expression of that relationship been different or the exact same for each?

I doubt that it would have been anyone else in Susannah's place that sparked that level of creativity with Prince. Because Susannah is an individual with a unique life and artistic creativity of her own, a trained vocalist, a painter, lover of art and art history.

the Beautiful Ones came because Prince was trying to woo her from someone else, Prince was very open and cool with Wendy Melvoin & Jonathan Melvoin. Saw her as a little sister. Prince was even back then very curious of the 'twin' ideal. So there is a strong probability that the Beautiful Ones, the Family music, Susannah's Blues, Empty Room, Condition of the Heart, Forever in My Life, Starfish & Coffee, Adore, If I Was Ur Girlfriend, Strange Relationships etc would not have been made without his adoration and relationship to her (specifically) Love don't work in a way that it could just be anybody in that place.

MadamGoodnight said:

I'm the opposite. ATWIAD, UTCM are my least favorite albums from that time period. I liked the B sides, but still. I prefer the sound before and afterwards. I do love what Lisa contributed to the Stick, & other jams, but the Wendy and Lisa "sound" as a whole is not for me.

I don't think that is the 'wendy & lisa' sound

Lisa was creating with Prince since Dirty Mind she's also a jazz pianist

A lot of the music on SOTT/Dream Factory time In A Large Room, Power Fantastic(a Lisa composition) was music that came about with Prince's use of Lisa Wendy

A lot of the Purple Rain sound is as well

In this car I driveI'm looking for the road that leads back to the soul we sharedWith my very lifeI'd gladly be the body upon the cross we bear(Cross we bear)
How did we ever lose communication?(How did we?)How did we ever lose each other's sound?(I don't know)Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situationMaybe we can stop the rain from coming down

OldFriends4Sale said:

MadamGoodnight said:

I'm the opposite. ATWIAD, UTCM are my least favorite albums from that time period. I liked the B sides, but still. I prefer the sound before and afterwards. I do love what Lisa contributed to the Stick, & other jams, but the Wendy and Lisa "sound" as a whole is not for me.

I don't think that is the 'wendy & lisa' sound

Lisa was creating with Prince since Dirty Mind she's also a jazz pianist

A lot of the music on SOTT/Dream Factory time In A Large Room, Power Fantastic(a Lisa composition) was music that came about with Prince's use of Lisa Wendy

A lot of the Purple Rain sound is as well

In this car I driveI'm looking for the road that leads back to the soul we sharedWith my very lifeI'd gladly be the body upon the cross we bear(Cross we bear)
How did we ever lose communication?(How did we?)How did we ever lose each other's sound?(I don't know)Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situationMaybe we can stop the rain from coming down

OF4S that is why I gave Lisa separate credit. I do like her contributions, but the two together are not my favorite "sound" from Prince. As I've said, 1999 was my favorite era. My favorite song from Purple Rain is The Beautiful Ones. Purple Rain was not my favorite from Prince either. It enhanced the movie, but I rarely play anything from PR outisde of The Beautiful Ones. To be honest, I was looking for 1999 Pt. 2 when Purple Rain came out. that is what the P fans that I know from then were looking for.

The songs from W&L that fans always name, Raspberry Beret, SISIA are not songs that I like anyway.

2elijah said:

ufoclub said:

Who contributes what to the past music can easily be estimated by their current music. Just listen to the latest from Wendy and Lisa and the latest from Prince. Also tally up the amount of songs post revolution each has done.

When The Beatles broke up it was easy to see who brought what to the table by looking at their solo albums and types of output.

The same could be said for Prince and Wendy/Lisa

(Highlighted part) Not really, because if it was announced that just W&L was doing a concert at MSG, the tix would not sell out in a 1/2 hour. Even if I listen to the latest from both Prince and W&L, Prince still comes out winning..no contest, and the bottom line is, what music one likes, depends on the individual's music tastes. Again, W&L are only known to Prince fans, whether new or old, because of their association with Prince in the Purple Rain movie and their time with Prince as former Revolution members.

I also wonder since when out of all his band members W&L is being compared to Prince, as though W&L are 'household names, legendary status and famous' and on the same level as Prince? You really think if W&L were called to perform at someplace like the Grammy's that sponsors would jump hoops to get adverstising time? Absolutely not, but if it was announced Prince would be playing they would...that's the difference between W&L....without Prince.

Again, my personal opinion of W&L is not to put them down. I respect them for their contributions during their time as Revolution members and whatever they contributed after, but again, they are not Prince nor are they the reason for his fame and hard work as a musician. I'm not buying that bs.

[Edited 1/16/12 8:35am]

I think you misunderstand the implication of my post completely the other way!

I'm saying they don't hold a candle to Prince's output. And it's obvious that songs like Mountains, Purple Rain, etc are at their core typical Prince songs. If they weren't you'd be hearing shades of this in Wendy and Lisa's output. Truthfully I've only recently heard their EP, the title of "Nurse Jackie", and the score to the show "Heroes" lately. But that's enough to tell me outside of the "Nurse Jackie" theme that they are quite different in the shape and energy of music than the hundreds and hundreds (how many have we now heard including bootleg?) of songs I have heard by Prince that all share common elements.

ladygirl99 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

during the Controversy on up years Prince was using Lisa Coleman and Dez alot in the creative process. the writing of actual songs is not up for aruement. There are songs that Prince wrote all by himself and songs that 1 or more persons added input.

the musical process though, Prince had a lot of creative input from others. If I create a music chord for a song during a rehearsal or jam session and someone else takes it and uses it, who actually created it? That happened a lot with Prince and his early band(s)

It is obvious that Prince listened to Wendy Lisa Susannah Sheila E a lot (he was more 'comfortable') after a certain period with women.

No it's not the truth. Your saying the music would have been the same if someone else was in the band and that's far from the truth. That is Wendy's chords starting with the opening of Purple Rain & Computer Blue, if it was Stef from Sheila E's band it would not be the same song or noth even created. Even the opening line Wendy? Yes Lisa... they came up with. So that in itself would not be if Dez and Gayle were there. Everyone is a unique individual, they bring something different to the table. According to Lisa Coleman a lot of the Purple Rain sessions music was created with the Revolution working it out in the Warehouse and all night creative sessions, people adding there own piece.

You misread some of my post all I am saying that despite Wendy and Lisa always have a place in the Purple Rain era but Purple Rain was likely going to be successful with or without them due to his star status and majority of the PR album was done by him the final product. That is the truth.

As far as Computer Blue you are making a big deal off their contribution than what it is but I do understand they were mad at not getting the deserved co-writing with Purple Rain (yes I remember all the madness back in 1998 on Google Group how Prince taunted them with that Lendy/Wisa cryptic on his official website after that interview they made). What is funny is they play Purple Rain, Mountains, Sometimes it Snow In April in their past concerts indicate they heavily co-wrote those songs yet those songs other than PR werent popular hits nor made Prince popular. And just because a bandmember came with a chord Prince could use that influence and create into his sound, so that is much debate if he did was stealing or influence. But all musicians influence each other Im a creative artist myself so I know. It just like if I get a storyline idea from an author about aliens invaded at the high school and young female teen is the focus then I use that idea by changing the plot of aliens invade some middle school by changing the city but the plot involves some young girl and her friend should I get that author that co writing credit when I just was influence by the idea? But some fans acting like Prince influence is stealing or indicate he is incapible making great music without so and so help him out.

U don't know if it would have been successful.

No different than Under the Cherry Moon. If 1 2 & 3 happened Under the Cherry Moon could have been huge.

If 1 2 & 3 didn't happen Purple Rain could have been a flop.

Sure of course the 'final' product Prince is going polish it up for the album, But truthfully 6 out of the 9 songs were a collabrative effort to various degrees. Even Apollonia can't take credit for her vocals cause Prince had Lisa sing underneath her to strengthen her part without making it sound like someone else.

And If I said Prince is 'stealing' from other correct me. But I never said he 'stole' from anyone of them. You should take that up with the individual that said it.

I've said over and over in this thread that I see Prince like a sun with his band members & proteges as moons reflecting his light.

paulludvig said:

ufoclub said:

Who contributes what to the past music can easily be estimated by their current music. Just listen to the latest from Wendy and Lisa and the latest from Prince. Also tally up the amount of songs post revolution each has done.

When The Beatles broke up it was easy to see who brought what to the table by looking at their solo albums and types of output.

The same could be said for Prince and Wendy/Lisa

I don't think W&L's latest output sound much like classic 80's Prince. But maybe that's your point?

That's my point. Actually their latest sounds like any of his output from anytime. I think their authorship of some songs is highly overestimated. People may be getting mixed up with their input into the live renditions when they were part of the touring band.

alexandernevamind said:

A lot of people in the music business use their starpower to get people to work for them for little or nothing.These people are usually new to the business and are just really excited to be working with the star.

Pretty soon though, reality kicks in and they realize they've been used.When they start asking for what's owed them, they usually get fired quit.

^ standard in the business world, its called an "internship".

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

I don't think anyone is denying that W&L had some creative input in the songs of that era with Prince and made some suggestions, but at the end of the day, they are not Prince and never will be. I'm sorry, and no disrespect, but I'm not giving them a crown to wear, especially if they are not deserving of it. I appreciate their conributions as musicians and their collaboration with Prince and the classic songs that they contributed to, but you can't deny that he had his musical talent long before they became members of his band. As far as some songs you say he wrote for Susannah, well, she could have been replaced with any other female, he could have written a song for. I'm sorry but W&L are getting more credit than they should, from fans who seem to believe that W&L made Prince, which they didn't. They may have given some creative input during the Purple Rain era, but they were not responsible for his musical talents. It is said that Betty-Mabry (Davis), contributed her input/inspiations/suggestions to some of Miles' music, but she is not responsible for the creative, music skills that Miles already owned, nor did he fail as a musician, when they were no longer together.

I get all your points. It's one thing to give inspiration or encouragement to a musician/artist but the output depends on how the musician/artist will project it to his audience. He was already writing music, shocking audiences with his stage presence and music, long before W&L joined the band.

I think U too have taken my post farther than what was intended. I understand you point and issue with people making W&L bigger than what they are, but that was not the intent of my post. No disrespect but I don't think you read it clearly with all the W&L stuff happening. And I'm big on seperating Lisa Colemans time and creative time with Prince since she was there to work with Prince for the Dirty Mind & the Time album.

Dez had a lot to do with Prince's early image, Prince borrowed a lot of his look from Dez, and that's ok. I love that raw image creativity they had.

U said some things that just doesn't apply to me. I've never indicated that Prince wasn't nor isn't talented. That makes no sense for me to say something like that. Of course other are saying it. But everything isn't black or white here.

Leave Wendy & Lisa out of this for a minute. Do you think that Cat had a level of creative energy with Prince that gave us the SOTT & Lovesexy shows? Could it really have been anyone else that gave us what we saw with them?

Could it really have been anyone else but the original Time & Vanity 6 that brought about the term 'Triple Threat'? No

U are an individual? Do you think if your mother had a female child with another husband that U would have still come out? No is the answer obviously.

Have you ever had 2 or more boyfriends/lovers? Has the expression of that relationship been different or the exact same for each?

I doubt that it would have been anyone else in Susannah's place that sparked that level of creativity with Prince. Because Susannah is an individual with a unique life and artistic creativity of her own, a trained vocalist, a painter, lover of art and art history.

the Beautiful Ones came because Prince was trying to woo her from someone else, Prince was very open and cool with Wendy Melvoin & Jonathan Melvoin. Saw her as a little sister. Prince was even back then very curious of the 'twin' ideal. So there is a strong probability that the Beautiful Ones, the Family music, Susannah's Blues, Empty Room, Condition of the Heart, Forever in My Life, Starfish & Coffee, Adore, If I Was Ur Girlfriend, Strange Relationships etc would not have been made without his adoration and relationship to her (specifically) Love don't work in a way that it could just be anybody in that place.

I hope you're not getting angry at me for being honest in my opinion of W&L and how I feel about their contribution/input in 'some' of Prince's music. OF4S, I hope not, because I'm just being honest. Also, I never said you stated Prince didn't have any talent. I based that opinion, generally, from several threads in the past from some fans, again not from you in particular, who have stated the same thing as the OP, about Prince not being as popular if it wasn't for W&L. I just don't believe that to be true, especially when he's worked with several band members after that.

May I also ask if you know for a 'fact' that any of the last paragraphs of your post are based on facts, rumors, or speculation, of who those songs were specifically written for, as I've heard so many stories of what songs were written for former Prince girlfriends. So unless these fans who say this, heard it exactly from Prince's mouth or he wrote it in black and white, about who those songs were specifically written for, then I take it all as speculation. Also, I don't think a question regarding whether my parents, 'would have done this or that', has anything to do with my opinion on this matter, as it is obvious I am here, and an individual, who can think clearly for herself and give an honest opinion.

As far as his collaborations with many of his former bandmembers, I am not saying they didn't bring anything to the equation, I just don't feel one or two, should take take 'full' credit for Prince becoming the popular musician he is today, especially when he's changed bandmembers throughout the years, who also contributed to his music, but doesn't mean 'they made him', so-to-speak. Just being honest, is all.

ufoclub said:

2elijah said:

(Highlighted part) Not really, because if it was announced that just W&L was doing a concert at MSG, the tix would not sell out in a 1/2 hour. Even if I listen to the latest from both Prince and W&L, Prince still comes out winning..no contest, and the bottom line is, what music one likes, depends on the individual's music tastes. Again, W&L are only known to Prince fans, whether new or old, because of their association with Prince in the Purple Rain movie and their time with Prince as former Revolution members.

I also wonder since when out of all his band members W&L is being compared to Prince, as though W&L are 'household names, legendary status and famous' and on the same level as Prince? You really think if W&L were called to perform at someplace like the Grammy's that sponsors would jump hoops to get adverstising time? Absolutely not, but if it was announced Prince would be playing they would...that's the difference between W&L....without Prince.

Again, my personal opinion of W&L is not to put them down. I respect them for their contributions during their time as Revolution members and whatever they contributed after, but again, they are not Prince nor are they the reason for his fame and hard work as a musician. I'm not buying that bs.

[Edited 1/16/12 8:35am]

I think you misunderstand the implication of my post completely the other way!

I'm saying they don't hold a candle to Prince's output. And it's obvious that songs like Mountains, Purple Rain, etc are at their core typical Prince songs. If they weren't you'd be hearing shades of this in Wendy and Lisa's output. Truthfully I've only recently heard their EP, the title of "Nurse Jackie", and the score to the show "Heroes" lately. But that's enough to tell me outside of the "Nurse Jackie" theme that they are quite different in the shape and energy of music than the hundreds and hundreds (how many have we now heard including bootleg?) of songs I have heard by Prince that all share common elements.

Ok, and I apologize if I did. I've heard their scores to 'Heroes' when I watched that show as well. I wasn't blown away with it, but give them credit for doing their own thing and continuing with their music career, since no longer being part of Prince's band.

hhhhdmt said:

So now we are supposed to give wendy credit for the beautiful ones simply because she has a sister? She had nothing to do with the song itself, and therefore deserves no credit for it. She does deserve credit for stuff like Mountains and SISIA but its this worsship of wendy and lisa that is annoying. They repeatedly get credit for songs they had nothing to do with, either by revolution fanboys or anti prince trolls.

NO ONE ever said that. Try reading.

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think U too have taken my post farther than what was intended. I understand you point and issue with people making W&L bigger than what they are, but that was not the intent of my post. No disrespect but I don't think you read it clearly with all the W&L stuff happening. And I'm big on seperating Lisa Colemans time and creative time with Prince since she was there to work with Prince for the Dirty Mind & the Time album.

Dez had a lot to do with Prince's early image, Prince borrowed a lot of his look from Dez, and that's ok. I love that raw image creativity they had.

U said some things that just doesn't apply to me. I've never indicated that Prince wasn't nor isn't talented. That makes no sense for me to say something like that. Of course other are saying it. But everything isn't black or white here.

Leave Wendy & Lisa out of this for a minute. Do you think that Cat had a level of creative energy with Prince that gave us the SOTT & Lovesexy shows? Could it really have been anyone else that gave us what we saw with them?

Could it really have been anyone else but the original Time & Vanity 6 that brought about the term 'Triple Threat'? No

U are an individual? Do you think if your mother had a female child with another husband that U would have still come out? No is the answer obviously.

Have you ever had 2 or more boyfriends/lovers? Has the expression of that relationship been different or the exact same for each?

I doubt that it would have been anyone else in Susannah's place that sparked that level of creativity with Prince. Because Susannah is an individual with a unique life and artistic creativity of her own, a trained vocalist, a painter, lover of art and art history.

the Beautiful Ones came because Prince was trying to woo her from someone else, Prince was very open and cool with Wendy Melvoin & Jonathan Melvoin. Saw her as a little sister. Prince was even back then very curious of the 'twin' ideal. So there is a strong probability that the Beautiful Ones, the Family music, Susannah's Blues, Empty Room, Condition of the Heart, Forever in My Life, Starfish & Coffee, Adore, If I Was Ur Girlfriend, Strange Relationships etc would not have been made without his adoration and relationship to her (specifically) Love don't work in a way that it could just be anybody in that place.

I hope you're not getting angry at me for being honest in my opinion of W&L and how I feel about their contribution/input in 'some' of Prince's music. OF4S, I hope not, because I'm just being honest. Also, I never said you stated Prince didn't have any talent. I based that opinion, generally, from several threads in the past from some fans, again not from you in particular, who have stated the same thing as the OP, about Prince not being as popular if it wasn't for W&L. I just don't believe that to be true, especially when he's worked with several band members after that.

May I also ask if you know for a 'fact' that any of the last paragraphs of your post are based on facts, rumors, or speculation, of who those songs were specifically written for, as I've heard so many stories of what songs were written for former Prince girlfriends. So unless these fans who say this, heard it exactly from Prince's mouth or he wrote it in black and white, about who those songs were specifically written for, then I take it all as speculation. Also, I don't think a question regarding whether my parents, 'would have done this or that', has anything to do with my opinion on this matter, as it is obvious I am here, and an individual, who can think clearly for herself and give an honest opinion.

As far as his collaborations with many of his former bandmembers, I am not saying they didn't bring anything to the equation, I just don't feel one or two, should take take 'full' credit for Prince becoming the popular musician he is today, especially when he's changed bandmembers throughout the years, who also contributed to his music, but doesn't mean 'they made him', so-to-speak. Just being honest, is all.

No no not at all no anger here at all

It's just that I said some specific thing just in general question about 'fate' how things work out or not.

Some things yes its fact that he wrote those songs about susannah, alot of it does come from those close in his camp. The creation of the Beautiful Ones is factual too. the creation of the Family was surrounding utilizing Susannahs vocal skills and Eric Leeds sax skills the project was a love child of Prince's. hmmm Susannah's Pajamas non studio live rendition called Susannahs Blues. Prince came very close to marrying her and to speculate that he would not write songs about this woman and for this woman.... He continued to work with her even after letting Wendy go then she finally had enough of what was happening. Empty Room, Wally-Susan Rogers factual statements etc etc

No the reason I said that was to say you are a unique individual. Just like in this group you bring a specific perspective to the group and you have certain focuses of life that show up in your posts. I don't think that anyone could have sparked Prince's creativity for those songs. Because Susannah is a unique individual. Same way he wrote a song called Wonderful Ass about Vanity. It was their quirky relationship that sparked it. Jill Jones - She's Always in My Hair. Could just anyone have filled Sheila E's shoes just because they played percussion? No, we would have had a totally different piece of history. If Jesse fronted the Time would it have worked? Probably would have been a totally different kind of band, especially since he could play guitar and Morris couldn't

ufoclub said:

paulludvig said:

I don't think W&L's latest output sound much like classic 80's Prince. But maybe that's your point?

That's my point. Actually their latest sounds like any of his output from anytime. I think their authorship of some songs is highly overestimated. People may be getting mixed up with their input into the live renditions when they were part of the touring band.

I do it all the time, I think you left out some punctuation that makes it sound like you're saying something else.

I believe there first few albums sound a lot like Prince's 80's output. Prince's latest output doesn't sound like his 80's output either. I'll be stoned for saying this but I still hear a lot of 80's Prince in Rainbow Children and even 20Ten though, but not much of the rest.

I think a lot of people on both sides are mixing up 'authorship' with creative input.

It's all hard 2 say completely in the end. Power Fantastic is pend a Prince songs, but the music composition is by Lisa Coleman. with Prince's lyrics