TrevorAyer said:

wdc would not have been as popular without purple rain the movie

purple rain the movie would not have been as popular without ALL the talent that contributed to it's success

prince would not have been as popular without that same group, the revolution, vanity, the time, sheila e, his dad, contributing to his success. its not an insult to prince its only an insult to your idea that everything came from prince and everyone else could have been replaced with just anybody.

i have not implied that prince contributed nothing and was made by everyone around him .. i am stating that those around him were far more essential to the success artistically as well as in terms of popularity, than they are given credit for. which is completely true as is evidenced by his dramatic drop in artistic integrity as well as popularity, when no longer surrounded by certain collaborators.

yes because there is no other reason for this. And ofcourse most of the 80's artists became less popular as time went by, so i guess that must be because of their "collaborators" too

Still in denial about wdc? I am not even going to argue with you there, prince wrote the biggest hit of his carrear, you have tried to make a thousand excuses for this ("drum machines", "movie") etc but you know its Prince's genius and certainly not his band.

Prince was a great visionary as far as that period was concerned, the keeping of the vision together he didn't do as well because he needed to much control. Done right the Time Vanity 6 Sheila E Mazarati the Family(I believe the Family was happening and the change in the Time just brought in members quicker) could have been much larger

I totally agree. One of my main complaints was the control issues. Although, Prince helped the time get a deal and write all their big hits, imagine what would have happened if he let the group become more independent. Prince could have signed Jimmy and Terry to a publishing deal and benefit on their obvious songwriting talent. The original members (o7 if you will) would have been in purple rain. In addtional to jams like the bird/jungle love/and ice cream castles, Jimmy and terry could have landed a couple of tunes as well. The resulting album could have been huge. Imagine a purple rain tour with the time opening? Instead of apollonia 6, we would have still had vanity 6. People already knew who they were. If a second album was released with all the songs that were suppose to be on there(take me with you, manic monday, the glamorous life)..forget about it. Prince the artist was huge,but his legacy as a star maker would have gone through the roof.

TrevorAyer said:

dear databank .. thanks for checking out my music and saying nice stuff about it .. also bjork is pretty awesome .. earth intruders .. that song she did with antony .. still gets me the way her earlier stuff did .. tho i agree some of her stuff has been less inspiring as well .. i certainly appreciate prince but also feel he deserves a fair dose of criticism to push him along artistically .. as does everyone wouldnt u say .. i mean look at the world .. its pretty messed up right now .. if prince cant write a hit than thats a shure sign of the apocolypse if there ever was one .. so in order to save the world we must teach each other excellence .. we must teach prince excellence so that he can show others what excellence looks like ..

Thanks for being cool

I agree with u about excellence but I personnally don't feel in a position to teach Prince about it.

And what should he do anyway?

For me, excellence is to step out of one's territory, to keep trying new things over and over: he kinda tried this with Kamasutra, The War, Xpectation, N.E.W.S. and C-Note and the fans' reaction has been far from positive. I was really enthusiastic about these recordings and some are very daring and quite wild imho! Who cares about them here? Most people keep saying it's crap and then complain that Prince keeps doing the same things over and over

For some other people, excellence would be to recreate what they feel was there in the 80's and is now missing. He kinda tried it with Mplsound and 20Ten and the fans' reaction has been quite negative as well.

So now some here say it's because his old banmates aren't around. Ok, and what if he calls back the Revolution? It's very likely that the result will be unconvincing for many people. Even if they were as influencial as you say they were, there was a specific alchemy between them back then; youth and friendship and wilderness and everything... Now they are estranged to each other, much older... One is a major star, 2 are doing ok writing soundtracks, the 3 others are struggling to survive in a music industry that doesn't care about them... There's no guarantee that putting them all in a studio would create something that rivals Purple Rain, ATWIAD or Parade... And if THIS fails to satisfy the fans, then what else will you ask him to do?

I am personally satisfied with Prince's recent music. I find that most of Prince's recent output IS excellent. It speaks to me, I find it sophisticated, well-thought and as good and inspired as the old stuff even if -of course- it doesn't have the freshness of being the innovative shit it used to. Honestly I can say that Lotusflow3r, Mplsound and Elixer gave me as much joy in 2009 than the classic albums when I discovered them all in 89-91. Prince grows older? Good: because so do I!

What Prince did to the world in the 80's, he won't be able to do it again. Never. Same with Björk: no matter what she does, from now on no album of her will ever be the SHOCK that Debut and Post were, neither will it influence today's musicians the way these albums did in the mid-90's. Same with Bowie or George Clinton: their 90's albums were really great, and critically acclaimed, but no matter how great they were, our attention back then was focused on Tricky, Björk, etc. because they were to their time what Prince had been to the 80's and what Bowie or Clinton had been to the 70's. And no matter how much you may like (or dislike) 50 Words For Snow, it will never be the scandalously original Kate Bush of 1982 again...

In the end I think Prince is still being very honest with his music, and therefore with us. I might be wrong but I think he is. I don't think he's being cynical when he records an album. I don't think he thinks "I'm gonna release crap and make money" like some old stars do. I think he deeply enjoys what he does. He might be a little self-indulgent sometimes, he might be in need to listen to more different stuff that what he already knows because obviously he doesn't listen to much music besides funk classics and a few new mainstream artists, but nonetheless he still puts a lot of effort and sincerity in what he does. Listen to the arrangements on Lotusflow3r and Mplsound. You may not like these albums, but they weren't recorded by an indulgent man in 2 hours. A lot of work and thoughts were put into these albums. Listen to the lyrics. You may not like them but most are still very personal statements about Prince's feelings and his vision of life.

So in the end we have someone who's still recording music with care, with faith in what he does, and even if it doesn't please all of us here, it sure pleases SOME of us, and it sure pleases him regardless of how much money he earns from it. And no matter what, I still find in his music a level of excellence that I don't find in THAT MANY other artists. Really. And believe me I listen to a LOT of stuff.

Which brings us back to the original post: was Prince's greatness mostly due to his collaborators or to himself? I think that Prince was a totally wild force back then, just like Clinton or Bowie or Kate Bush or Tricky or Björk were in their primes. These people wanted to shake the world before they met any of the people that helped them shake it, and they knew they had it in them from the beginning. Of course they needed the right associates, and thanks God they found them. But in the end it was all about the main artist. Prince would have done things a little differently, sure. But keep in mind that all his musicians from that time say again and again that Prince was the main creative force, that every record was his vision and his concept. I'm not saying it, THEY say it: Wendy & Lisa & Matt & everyone else involved back then. Even The Time. They should know, they were there.

And as for the OP claiming that P "stole" credits... It's pure lies. Prince took a few credits here and there, it's true, we know exactly when and how. But for the most part he gave credit to others for things he'd done himself, and most of the times his collaborators were fairly credited and retributed for their input in the creative process. This also is fact.

And I don't want Prince to write a hit. I don't care about hits. I care about honest music being made by honest artists. I think this is the case here. Sorry if I'm wrong.

WinterIsComing said:

Prince was a great visionary as far as that period was concerned, the keeping of the vision together he did do as well because he needed to much control. Done right the Time Vanity 6 Sheila E Mazarati the Family(I believe the Family was happening and the change in the Time just brought in members quicker) could have been much larger

I totally agree. One of my main complaints was the control issues. Although, Prince helped the time get a deal and write all their big hits, imagine what would have happened if he let the group become more independent. Prince could have signed Jimmy and Terry to a publishing deal and benefit on their obvious songwriting talent. The original members (o7 if you will) would have been in purple rain. In addtional to jams like the bird/jungle love/and ice cream castles, Jimmy and terry could have landed a couple of tunes as well. The resulting album could have been huge. Imagine a purple rain tour with the time opening? Instead of apollonia 6, we would have still had vanity 6. People already knew who they were. If a second album was released with all the songs that were suppose to be on there(take me with you, manic monday, the glamorous life)..forget about it. Prince the artist was huge,but his legacy as a star maker would have gone through the roof.

Coulda been quite interesting but I think it just wasn't the idea. These people were musical actors playing in his musical movie. They had to be talented in order to do it well, but if they wanted to do their thing they'd have to do it somewhere else...

databank's post should be last on the subject (but it's not) very well put and I agree with all of it.

"We all want the Revolution back" well I don't sorry if I upsets anyone they were lucky they were there when it all happened, not the other way round.

I buy there music because of Prince and to be honest maybe 95% or more would give the same answer.

I am in databank's debt because reading some of the posts I didn't think Prince had any talent (note to myself...don't let other people fuck with what I know).

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah I think it's not an easy thing to do.

If it was anyone else that Morris & Jerome it wouldn't not have been the same and might not have worked.

Vanity had the right attitude and background and chemistry with Prince Susan & Brenda as well as with the Time to do that job, she didn't it well. Apollonia failed to fill her shoes.

Just listening to the V6 version of Sex Shooter, and Vanity nailed the song, her personality was in it and you can tell Prince and everyone else on that jam were feeding off her.

And Prince could not have been replaced either. Patti Labelle & Treyzongs should have never attempted to do Purple Rain. I vomitted.

We don't know that other people with the same talent couldn't have captured the fans as Morris, Jerome, Vanity. They're replaceable talent; they just happen to be the lucky ones picked to represent the image Prince's 'vision' and I stress "Prince's vision' wanted them to project.

lol that's my phrase I've been using

Check my post 52, I've been calling Prince a great visionary since I joined the group

"Prince was a great visionary as far as that period was concerned, the keeping of the vision together he did do as well because he needed to much control. Done right the Time Vanity 6 Sheila E Mazarati the Family(I believe the Family was happening and the change in the Time just brought in members quicker) could have been much larger"

But you can't say they were replaceble because every place I saw it it didn't work

Beautifulstarr123 said:

Timmy84 said:

Wow... people's true colors are finally coming out. Dismissing Prince just to big up Wendy or Lisa up. I think even Wendy & Lisa and any member of Prince's groups and splinter groups (The Time included) would shake their heads at some of you for dissing the talent of the man who put them on the map in the first place. Just...wow.

Speaking for myself, I stated that his proteges are an contributing factor to his success. A CEO doesn't run a corporation alone, though he is the heart of the operation, do they?

I'm saying the same thing, a Prince can't run a 'principality' by himself. He needs warriors and villagers court members etc etc and if the warriors are weak when another army comes to fight that Prince will be overthrown.

Prince was the Prince of Paisley Park, and the bandmembers proteges engineers and producers all helped to carry out his vision. That's why the 1980's is the Golden era Silver era and Platinum era, he had the right people to present his vision and their personalities + the character turned it out

WinterIsComing said:

Prince was a great visionary as far as that period was concerned, the keeping of the vision together he didn't do as well because he needed to much control. Done right the Time Vanity 6 Sheila E Mazarati the Family(I believe the Family was happening and the change in the Time just brought in members quicker) could have been much larger

I totally agree. One of my main complaints was the control issues. Although, Prince helped the time get a deal and write all their big hits, imagine what would have happened if he let the group become more independent. Prince could have signed Jimmy and Terry to a publishing deal and benefit on their obvious songwriting talent. The original members (o7 if you will) would have been in purple rain. In addtional to jams like the bird/jungle love/and ice cream castles, Jimmy and terry could have landed a couple of tunes as well. The resulting album could have been huge. Imagine a purple rain tour with the time opening? Instead of apollonia 6, we would have still had vanity 6. People already knew who they were. If a second album was released with all the songs that were suppose to be on there(take me with you, manic monday, the glamorous life)..forget about it. Prince the artist was huge,but his legacy as a star maker would have gone through the roof.

I'm totally with U, the Time just by the fact he was threatened by the group, he had some talented people. Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis with there success shows what they could have contributed to Prince's 'kingdom' even if the Time diminished later on. Vanity's later 'success' shows she had the drive and the character to take Vanity 6 on a higher level. Apollonia 6 did nothing for the PR era outside of the movie, Vanity 6 Sheila E the original Time opening for Prince & the Revolution would have been sick.

It's one reason I have a bittersweat feeling about the Revolution break, because the extended vision diminished, so where there was Sheila E with that wonderful 3rd album, when she came into Prince band we no longer had the protege acts in 1987- Madhouse even couldn't help sustain because almost eveyone in Madhouse was in Prince's band ie Sheila E Prince Dr Fink Eric Leeds Levi

databank said:

WinterIsComing said:

I totally agree. One of my main complaints was the control issues. Although, Prince helped the time get a deal and write all their big hits, imagine what would have happened if he let the group become more independent. Prince could have signed Jimmy and Terry to a publishing deal and benefit on their obvious songwriting talent. The original members (o7 if you will) would have been in purple rain. In addtional to jams like the bird/jungle love/and ice cream castles, Jimmy and terry could have landed a couple of tunes as well. The resulting album could have been huge. Imagine a purple rain tour with the time opening? Instead of apollonia 6, we would have still had vanity 6. People already knew who they were. If a second album was released with all the songs that were suppose to be on there(take me with you, manic monday, the glamorous life)..forget about it. Prince the artist was huge,but his legacy as a star maker would have gone through the roof.

Coulda been quite interesting but I think it just wasn't the idea. These people were musical actors playing in his musical movie. They had to be talented in order to do it well, but if they wanted to do their thing they'd have to do it somewhere else...

I disagree, Pre-PR Prince was more agressive about control, he opened up more after PR

If he would have let someone else manage the Family more they would have stayed together because they would have been busy. He had a LOT going on between 1984-1986 and 1 man can't do everything despite what some may say.

Examples that it could have gone that way, was the Kiss story how he had BrownMark Coke Johnson & David Rivkin working on the Mazarati album while Prince continued working on his stuff.

Prince years later continues to refer to the Time as one of the bandest bands, but he was threatened by their creative success. Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, Morris & Jesse Johnson solo work shows he had key people in his camp that could have carried his vision further. They were all happy to work for Prince so that wasn't the problem. Sheila E, the Family, Mazarati was already a local band he had the perfect setup but only 2 hands.

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

Coulda been quite interesting but I think it just wasn't the idea. These people were musical actors playing in his musical movie. They had to be talented in order to do it well, but if they wanted to do their thing they'd have to do it somewhere else...

I disagree, Pre-PR Prince was more agressive about control, he opened up more after PR

If he would have let someone else manage the Family more they would have stayed together because they would have been busy. He had a LOT going on between 1984-1986 and 1 man can't do everything despite what some may say.

Examples that it could have gone that way, was the Kiss story how he had BrownMark Coke Johnson & David Rivkin working on the Mazarati album while Prince continued working on his stuff.

Prince years later continues to refer to the Time as one of the bandest bands, but he was threatened by their creative success. Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, Morris & Jesse Johnson solo work shows he had key people in his camp that could have carried his vision further. They were all happy to work for Prince so that wasn't the problem. Sheila E, the Family, Mazarati was already a local band he had the perfect setup but only 2 hands.

you hit the nail right on the head. It's interesting that after jimmy and terry were fired for missing that gig(or committing the sin of working outside of P's camp ie s.o.s band) he let Jesse contribute more to the process (ie one of Ice cream castle's best moment's "jungle love"). I think he was thawing a little around purple rain by officially giving his band a name in the billing "Prince and the Revolution". Unfourtunately for vanity 6 and later the time.. it was too late.

kenkamken said:

[img:$uid]http://gifsoup..../img:$uid] GIFSoup

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

We don't know that other people with the same talent couldn't have captured the fans as Morris, Jerome, Vanity. They're replaceable talent; they just happen to be the lucky ones picked to represent the image Prince's 'vision' and I stress "Prince's vision' wanted them to project.

lol that's my phrase I've been using

Check my post 52, I've been calling Prince a great visionary since I joined the group

"Prince was a great visionary as far as that period was concerned, the keeping of the vision together he did do as well because he needed to much control. Done right the Time Vanity 6 Sheila E Mazarati the Family(I believe the Family was happening and the change in the Time just brought in members quicker) could have been much larger"

But you can't say they were replaceble because every place I saw it it didn't work

You said he was a visionary for that time period, I'm talking about him being a visionary from the beginning to the present. He didn't stop bering a visionary during the Purple Rain/80s period. He kept going, he grew spiritually and musically, changing band members, creating new music, playing various forms of music. He didn't stay stuck in one time period or attached himself to 'one particular sound or era'. It is many fans that desire to keep him in one, particular era, that's not coming back. He continues to test the waters with various sounds.

And yes, those I mentioned in my post were replaceable, (well, with the exception of Sheila E, but that's just my opinion). He brought out what he wanted from the others and envisioned it how he wanted it to be, and they 'followed' those directions, and gave him what he wanted...just like a conducter leading an orchestra.

[Edited 1/20/12 19:53pm]

databank said:

Which brings us back to the original post: was Prince's greatness mostly due to his collaborators or to himself? I think that Prince was a totally wild force back then, just like Clinton or Bowie or Kate Bush or Tricky or Björk were in their primes. These people wanted to shake the world before they met any of the people that helped them shake it, and they knew they had it in them from the beginning. Of course they needed the right associates, and thanks God they found them. But in the end it was all about the main artist. Prince would have done things a little differently, sure. But keep in mind that all his musicians from that time say again and again that Prince was the main creative force, that every record was his vision and his concept. I'm not saying it, THEY say it: Wendy & Lisa & Matt & everyone else involved back then. Even The Time. They should know, they were there.

And as for the OP claiming that P "stole" credits... It's pure lies. Prince took a few credits here and there, it's true, we know exactly when and how. But for the most part he gave credit to others for things he'd done himself, and most of the times his collaborators were fairly credited and retributed for their input in the creative process. This also is fact.

And I don't want Prince to write a hit. I don't care about hits. I care about honest music being made by honest artists. I think this is the case here. Sorry if I'm wrong.

Thank you for saying that. I do believe that's what many of us were saying in our own ways, (bolded part) but you nailed it!

[Edited 1/20/12 19:42pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

You can't say that no one could have replaced Morris Day. There's plenty of personalities out there just like his, just as much as many females like Appollonia and Vanity. They just happen to be around at the right time. There is nothing 'outstanding' or that unique about any of their personalities. Now if you think Prince can be replaced, well it will have to be someone who can possess his music talents and outdo his stage performances, and be able to mesmerize/captivate fans like he did. Same with JB, no one can replace him as well as MJ. I don't believe we will see anyone in the future who could 'stand out' like all 3, in the way they did. Yes, Prince and MJ borrowed a lot of JB's dance styles, but they took it and made it their own, where you can distinguish it from JBs.

Chris Brown tries hard with his dancing, and he's a good dancer, but what he does, has already been done.

Yeah I think it's not an easy thing to do.

If it was anyone else than Morris & Jerome it would not have been the same and might not have worked.

Vanity had the right attitude and background and chemistry with Prince Susan & Brenda as well as with the Time to do that job, she did it well. Apollonia failed to fill her shoes.

Just listening to the V6 version of Sex Shooter, and Vanity nailed the song, her personality was in it and you can tell Prince and everyone else on that jam were feeding off her.

And Prince could not have been replaced either. Patti Labelle & Treyzongs should have never attempted to do Purple Rain. I vomitted.

I totally agree!!! That had to be the worst tribute ever in the history of tributes!!!! It still pisses me off to this day.

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

lol that's my phrase I've been using

Check my post 52, I've been calling Prince a great visionary since I joined the group

"Prince was a great visionary as far as that period was concerned, the keeping of the vision together he did do as well because he needed to much control. Done right the Time Vanity 6 Sheila E Mazarati the Family(I believe the Family was happening and the change in the Time just brought in members quicker) could have been much larger"

But you can't say they were replaceble because every place I saw it it didn't work

You said he was a visionary for that time period, I'm talking about him being a visionary from the beginning to the present. He didn't stop bering a visionary during the Purple Rain/80s period. He kept going, he grew spiritually and musically, changing band members, creating new music, playing various forms of music. He didn't stay stuck in one time period or attached himself to 'one particular sound or era'. It is many fans that desire to keep him in one, particular era, that's not coming back. He continues to test the waters with various sounds.

And yes, those I mentioned in my post were replaceable, (well, with the exception of Sheila E, but that's just my opinion). He brought out what he wanted from the others and envisioned it how he wanted it to be, and they 'followed' those directions, and gave him what he wanted...just like a conducter leading an orchestra.

[Edited 1/20/12 19:53pm]

You're dealing with Prince's career in general.

We were specifically dealing with Prince's vision and the protege and band connection surrounding the Uptown Erotic City Paisley Park image and vision. That ended after 1987.

Prince is a great entertainer and artist. But if we look at the 1990's & 2000's the whole 'visionary' thing feel thru. So we can't say it/he was a great visionary throught his career. I'm a big Prince fan, but facts say differently.

Anyone can change band members and create new music, doesn't make them great visionaries.

Also, we have to look at how an album concept and era turns out. Prince is going to put on one of the best concerts out there, but that doesn't make him a great visionary.

Carmen Electra(1990s) & Bria Valente(2000s) represent the proteges of those times and the 'vision' failed in all directions.

People are not clones nor are they empty vessels. No one could replace the people that took on those roles. It was individual character + purple character that had to make the part.

Morris Day was a childhood friend of Prince they ran around Minni together, that old pimp man character was something they both developed just playing around. There is no way you can say he was 'replaceable' even Prince knew Morris couldn't be replaced. If Jesse was given that frontman position we would have had a totally different band. It would not have been the time. Apollonia could not even come close to filling Vanity's shoes, Vanity was not replacable.

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

You said he was a visionary for that time period, I'm talking about him being a visionary from the beginning to the present. He didn't stop bering a visionary during the Purple Rain/80s period. He kept going, he grew spiritually and musically, changing band members, creating new music, playing various forms of music. He didn't stay stuck in one time period or attached himself to 'one particular sound or era'. It is many fans that desire to keep him in one, particular era, that's not coming back. He continues to test the waters with various sounds.

And yes, those I mentioned in my post were replaceable, (well, with the exception of Sheila E, but that's just my opinion). He brought out what he wanted from the others and envisioned it how he wanted it to be, and they 'followed' those directions, and gave him what he wanted...just like a conducter leading an orchestra.

[Edited 1/20/12 19:53pm]

You're dealing with Prince's career in general.

We were specifically dealing with Prince's vision and the protege and band connection surrounding the Uptown Erotic City Paisley Park image and vision. That ended after 1987.

Prince is a great entertainer and artist. But if we look at the 1990's & 2000's the whole 'visionary' thing feel thru. So we can't say it/he was a great visionary throught his career. I'm a big Prince fan, but facts say differently.

Anyone can change band members and create new music, doesn't make them great visionaries.

Also, we have to look at how an album concept and era turns out. Prince is going to put on one of the best concerts out there, but that doesn't make him a great visionary.

Carmen Electra(1990s) & Bria Valente(2000s) represent the proteges of those times and the 'vision' failed in all directions.

People are not clones nor are they empty vessels. No one could replace the people that took on those roles. It was individual character + purple character that had to make the part.

Morris Day was a childhood friend of Prince they ran around Minni together, that old pimp man character was something they both developed just playing around. There is no way you can say he was 'replaceable' even Prince knew Morris couldn't be replaced. If Jesse was given that frontman position we would have had a totally different band. It would not have been the time. Apollonia could not even come close to filling Vanity's shoes, Vanity was not replacable.

I see your point. Though his proteges can be replaced, they can't be replaced. As the saying goes 'Ain't nothing like the real thing'. I really missed the nostalgia of Prince and Co.

angel345 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

You're dealing with Prince's career in general.

We were specifically dealing with Prince's vision and the protege and band connection surrounding the Uptown Erotic City Paisley Park image and vision. That ended after 1987.

...
Carmen Electra(1990s) & Bria Valente(2000s) represent the proteges of those times and the 'vision' failed in all directions.

People are not clones nor are they empty vessels. No one could replace the people that took on those roles. It was individual character + purple character that had to make the part.

Morris Day was a childhood friend of Prince they ran around Minni together, that old pimp man character was something they both developed just playing around. There is no way you can say he was 'replaceable' even Prince knew Morris couldn't be replaced. If Jesse was given that frontman position we would have had a totally different band. It would not have been the time. Apollonia could not even come close to filling Vanity's shoes, Vanity was not replacable.

I see your point. Though his proteges can be replaced, they can't be replaced. As the saying goes 'Ain't nothing like the real thing'. I really missed the nostalgia of Prince and Co.

I'm with U here

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

You said he was a visionary for that time period, I'm talking about him being a visionary from the beginning to the present. He didn't stop bering a visionary during the Purple Rain/80s period. He kept going, he grew spiritually and musically, changing band members, creating new music, playing various forms of music. He didn't stay stuck in one time period or attached himself to 'one particular sound or era'. It is many fans that desire to keep him in one, particular era, that's not coming back. He continues to test the waters with various sounds.

And yes, those I mentioned in my post were replaceable, (well, with the exception of Sheila E, but that's just my opinion). He brought out what he wanted from the others and envisioned it how he wanted it to be, and they 'followed' those directions, and gave him what he wanted...just like a conducter leading an orchestra.

[Edited 1/20/12 19:53pm]

You're dealing with Prince's career in general.

We were specifically dealing with Prince's vision and the protege and band connection surrounding the Uptown Erotic City Paisley Park image and vision. That ended after 1987.

Prince is a great entertainer and artist. But if we look at the 1990's & 2000's the whole 'visionary' thing feel thru. So we can't say it/he was a great visionary throught his career. I'm a big Prince fan, but facts say differently.

Anyone can change band members and create new music, doesn't make them great visionaries.

Also, we have to look at how an album concept and era turns out. Prince is going to put on one of the best concerts out there, but that doesn't make him a great visionary.

Carmen Electra(1990s) & Bria Valente(2000s) represent the proteges of those times and the 'vision' failed in all directions.

People are not clones nor are they empty vessels. No one could replace the people that took on those roles. It was individual character + purple character that had to make the part.

Morris Day was a childhood friend of Prince they ran around Minni together, that old pimp man character was something they both developed just playing around. There is no way you can say he was 'replaceable' even Prince knew Morris couldn't be replaced. If Jesse was given that frontman position we would have had a totally different band. It would not have been the time. Apollonia could not even come close to filling Vanity's shoes, Vanity was not replacable.

None of that means they weren't 'replaceable'; there could have been someone who could have 'done it better'. than Morris If you left your position in a company, and your boss considered you the 'best at what you do' and felt no one can replace or match your skills, then he/she hires someone with the expectation of having similar skills as you. Then when the new person is hired, he/she turns out to be 'better' and more productive than you. That's replaceable. I say "never say never".

The former band associates had their own personalities, yes, and it would have been expected, that if someone took their place, their skills would have to match or be on the same level, as the original member(s), but who knows? A replacement may have been better, but you would never know that, because you didn't get a chance to see it happen. As much as some people may not want to admit it, there's always a possibility someone else could have come along, and do it just as good or better. How would you know if you didn't get a chance to witness it? Everyone is replaceable. To believe they aren't, is 'unrealistic', but hey to each their own.

.

[Edited 1/24/12 18:01pm]

alexandernevamind said:

Funk music is dead.Nobody under 30 listens to it.

I do and I'm 14, so ha!

2elijah said:

The former band associates had their own personalities, yes, and it would have been expected, that if someone took their place, their skills would have to match or be on the same level, as the original member(s), but who knows?

cough cough.. 1999 the new master..cough

SuperFurryAnimal said:

2elijah said:

The former band associates had their own personalities, yes, and it would have been expected, that if someone took their place, their skills would have to match or be on the same level, as the original member(s), but who knows?

cough cough.. 1999 the new master..cough

Ah ha, gotcha, but you didn't include all that was in my post. (see below). I specifically said if someone took their place meaning as 'long standing or permanetnbandmembers'. At the end of the day, W&L will never be Prince or match his fame.

2elijah said:

The former band associates had their own personalities, yes, and it would have been expected, that if someone took their place, their skills would have to match or be on the same level, as the original member(s), but who knows? A replacement may have been better, but you would never know that, because you didn't get a chance to see it happen 'Replacements?' Yes indeed. Thanks.

[Edited 1/26/12 7:34am]

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

You're dealing with Prince's career in general.

We were specifically dealing with Prince's vision and the protege and band connection surrounding the Uptown Erotic City Paisley Park image and vision. That ended after 1987.

Prince is a great entertainer and artist. But if we look at the 1990's & 2000's the whole 'visionary' thing feel thru. So we can't say it/he was a great visionary throught his career. I'm a big Prince fan, but facts say differently.

Anyone can change band members and create new music, doesn't make them great visionaries.

Also, we have to look at how an album concept and era turns out. Prince is going to put on one of the best concerts out there, but that doesn't make him a great visionary.

Carmen Electra(1990s) & Bria Valente(2000s) represent the proteges of those times and the 'vision' failed in all directions.

People are not clones nor are they empty vessels. No one could replace the people that took on those roles. It was individual character + purple character that had to make the part.

Morris Day was a childhood friend of Prince they ran around Minni together, that old pimp man character was something they both developed just playing around. There is no way you can say he was 'replaceable' even Prince knew Morris couldn't be replaced. If Jesse was given that frontman position we would have had a totally different band. It would not have been the time. Apollonia could not even come close to filling Vanity's shoes, Vanity was not replacable.

None of that means they weren't 'replaceable'; there could have been someone who could have 'done it better'. than Morris If you left your position in a company, and your boss considered you the 'best at what you do' and felt no one can replace or match your skills, then he/she hires someone with the expectation of having similar skills as you. Then when the new person is hired, he/she turns out to be 'better' and more productive than you. That's replaceable. I say "never say never".

The former band associates had their own personalities, yes, and it would have been expected, that if someone took their place, their skills would have to match or be on the same level, as the original member(s), but who knows? A replacement may have been better, but you would never know that, because you didn't get a chance to see it happen. As much as some people may not want to admit it, there's always a possibility someone else could have come along, and do it just as good or better. How would you know if you didn't get a chance to witness it? Everyone is replaceable. To believe they aren't, is 'unrealistic', but hey to each their own.

.

Yeah of course someone else could have been put in that place, but replaceable

Take a listen to the Time B side Tricky... that could not have happened with anyone

Morris was Prince's childhood friend, you just can't replace that.

And everyone in that original band -Jesse Johnson were 'childhood' friends forming bands together running around Minni trying to make it.

Vanity was Prince's girlfriend, who he said was a female mirror of himself. Apollonia could not replace that, 1.) She didn't have Vanities charisma 2.) She wasn't Prince's girlfriend or sex friend(she was married)

We have anough examples to within the Times band change and Vanity 6-Apollonia 6

To believe that individuals can easily be replaced within the context of the chemistry of a band is unrealistic. (just like pure Africans with blue eyes;-) ) just kidding

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

None of that means they weren't 'replaceable'; there could have been someone who could have 'done it better'. than Morris If you left your position in a company, and your boss considered you the 'best at what you do' and felt no one can replace or match your skills, then he/she hires someone with the expectation of having similar skills as you. Then when the new person is hired, he/she turns out to be 'better' and more productive than you. That's replaceable. I say "never say never".

The former band associates had their own personalities, yes, and it would have been expected, that if someone took their place, their skills would have to match or be on the same level, as the original member(s), but who knows? A replacement may have been better, but you would never know that, because you didn't get a chance to see it happen. As much as some people may not want to admit it, there's always a possibility someone else could have come along, and do it just as good or better. How would you know if you didn't get a chance to witness it? Everyone is replaceable. To believe they aren't, is 'unrealistic', but hey to each their own.

.

Yeah of course someone else could have been put in that place, but replaceable

Take a listen to the Time B side Tricky... that could not have happened with anyone

Morris was Prince's childhood friend, you just can't replace that.

And everyone in that original band -Jesse Johnson were 'childhood' friends forming bands together running around Minni trying to make it.

Vanity was Prince's girlfriend, who he said was a female mirror of himself. Apollonia could not replace that, 1.) She didn't have Vanities charisma 2.) She wasn't Prince's girlfriend or sex friend(she was married)

We have anough examples to within the Times band change and Vanity 6-Apollonia 6

To believe that individuals can easily be replaced within the context of the chemistry of a band is unrealistic. (just like pure Africans with blue eyes;-) ) just kidding

I had many childhood friends too, that I stay in touch with, but yes, they can and have been replaced by more trusting and better friendships. It would be quite 'assinine' to believe that another individual could be exactly the same as another, when you meet new people along the way in your life. Friendships and relationships can be replaced. Prince didn't stop making music or performing or lose his entire fan base, once he fired W&L, he kept things going, and added other musicians to his band, W&L were never going to be his permanent band members. Their names are not written in Prince's name. They were part of a group of musicians who collaborated with him during their time in his band. That's just about itwas didn't make Prince or give him his talent nor will they ever be him or have the same fame. They were two musicians, out of many, that he collaborated with, during a time in his life, and he moved on with his music and his life since then, and continued to have an international fan base without W&L.

About that 'Africans with blue eyes' thing you keep bringing up, you need to get over that....seriously.

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah of course someone else could have been put in that place, but replaceable

Take a listen to the Time B side Tricky... that could not have happened with anyone

Morris was Prince's childhood friend, you just can't replace that.

And everyone in that original band -Jesse Johnson were 'childhood' friends forming bands together running around Minni trying to make it.

Vanity was Prince's girlfriend, who he said was a female mirror of himself. Apollonia could not replace that, 1.) She didn't have Vanities charisma 2.) She wasn't Prince's girlfriend or sex friend(she was married)

We have anough examples to within the Times band change and Vanity 6-Apollonia 6

To believe that individuals can easily be replaced within the context of the chemistry of a band is unrealistic. (just like pure Africans with blue eyes;-) ) just kidding

I had many childhood friends too, that I stay in touch with, but yes, they can and have been replaced by more trusting and better friendships. It would be quite 'assinine' to believe that another individual could be exactly the same as another, when you meet new people along the way in your life. Friendships and relationships can be replaced. Prince didn't stop making music or performing or lose his entire fan base, once he fired W&L, he kept things going, and added other musicians to his band, W&L were never going to be his permanent band members. Their names are not written in Prince's name. They were part of a group of musicians who collaborated with him during their time in his band. That's just about itwas didn't make Prince or give him his talent nor will they ever be him or have the same fame. They were two musicians, out of many, that he collaborated with, during a time in his life, and he moved on with his music and his life since then, and continued to have an international fan base without W&L.

About that 'Africans with blue eyes' thing you keep bringing up, you need to get over that....seriously.

We are talking about protege's and you keep bring up Wendy & Lisa, maybe you should call them up and tell them this stuff lol

Where in that was I talking about W&L

this part of the conversation, that I and other were having was about Prince's (extension of music via the proteges) not about W&L

anyone can be replaced but no one really can be replaced as Angel345 said. We might add new people in but if it was good it can't be replaced.

As U said "but hey to each their own"

I just have a different idea of individual people and their purpose gifts and talents. No 1 person is the same, therefore cannot be replaced.

LOL I'm loving the blue eyed Africans...seriously

SuperFurryAnimal said:

2elijah said:

The former band associates had their own personalities, yes, and it would have been expected, that if someone took their place, their skills would have to match or be on the same level, as the original member(s), but who knows?

cough cough.. 1999 the new master..cough

I was ashamed of this one, the noituloveR was probably too

I doubt someone like P would continue to use W/L on newer recordings (Planet Earth) if P did not believe they added something special to the music. Same for Sonny T., Michael B. etc. I doubt P would have asked W/L for input into Roadhouse Garden if he did not believe in them. KWIM? P can record anything on his own but he knows certain people add something something.

OldFriends4Sale said:

SuperFurryAnimal said:

cough cough.. 1999 the new master..cough

I was ashamed of this one, the noituloveR was probably too

It was what it was. I found 100 copies of this and NPS at goodwill for 50 cents each. Target or bestbuy must have dumped them. Remember Chris Gaines(aka Garth Brooks) they had 100's of copies of that cd as well.

SuperFurryAnimal said:

I doubt someone like P would continue to use W/L on newer recordings (Planet Earth) if P did not believe they added something special to the music. Same for Sonny T., Michael B. etc. I doubt P would have asked W/L for input into Roadhouse Garden if he did not believe in them. KWIM? P can record anything on his own but he knows certain people add something something.

That's just it, no one said he didn't believe in them, the OP states Prince would not have been as popular without them. I disagree, his name was out there before W&L joined his band. He may have used them for later projects after he fired them as 'band members' but if he needed them that bad for the direction he wanted to take with his music, he would have kept them as permanent band members if he felt they were badly needed for his career to survive, as well as his survival as a musician, but obviously he didn't feel that way, as is obvious, and only called on them for occasional projects, as many musicians do with ex-band members. Fact is, Prince moved on without them, and did just fine, no matter how much butter, cream, donuts, jam, cookies, sugar some W&L fans try to sprinkle on W&L not being part of his band anymore. Now if he ever invites them to jam with him sometime in the future, that decision will have to be left up to Prince, not the fans.

[Edited 1/26/12 11:09am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

I had many childhood friends too, that I stay in touch with, but yes, they can and have been replaced by more trusting and better friendships. It would be quite 'assinine' to believe that another individual could be exactly the same as another, when you meet new people along the way in your life. Friendships and relationships can be replaced. Prince didn't stop making music or performing or lose his entire fan base, once he fired W&L, he kept things going, and added other musicians to his band, W&L were never going to be his permanent band members. Their names are not written in Prince's name. They were part of a group of musicians who collaborated with him during their time in his band. That's just about itwas didn't make Prince or give him his talent nor will they ever be him or have the same fame. They were two musicians, out of many, that he collaborated with, during a time in his life, and he moved on with his music and his life since then, and continued to have an international fan base without W&L.

About that 'Africans with blue eyes' thing you keep bringing up, you need to get over that....seriously.

We are talking about protege's and you keep bring up Wendy & Lisa, maybe you should call them up and tell them this stuff lol

Where in that was I talking about W&L

this part of the conversation, that I and other were having was about Prince's (extension of music via the proteges) not about W&L

anyone can be replaced but no one really can be replaced as Angel345 said. We might add new people in but if it was good it can't be replaced.

As U said "but hey to each their own"

I just have a different idea of individual people and their purpose gifts and talents. No 1 person is the same, therefore cannot be replaced.

LOL I'm loving the blue eyed Africans...seriously

This thread is about W&L is it not? (see title of thread). Oh and no thanks, I have no desire to call W&L. How 'bout you call up Prince and try telling some bullcrap that he can't survive musically without W&L?

His band members have been replaced several times, including W&L and others, so yes, in my opinion, they can be replaced. Prince, was the one who fired them early on in his career, wasn't he? So yes they can be replaced, with better talent. And yes, I said 'to each their own', meaning you and I just have a different view on this.

(Oh and I'm loving that you're so bothered by the 'blue-eyed Africans' comment, that you're losing sleep over it and keep bringing it up. Wow, I guess I really ruffled your feathers.. )