Great stuff. I've never remotely entertained the thought of kids until recently.This as all pretty good food for thought

From Daniel Gilbert's Stumbling on Happiness:

When people are asked to identify their sources of joy, they do just what I do: They point to their kids.

Yet, if we measure the actual satisfaction of people who have children, a very different story emerges. As figure 2.3 shows, couples generally start out quite happy in their marriages and then become progressively less satisfied over the course of their lives together, getting close to their original levels of satisfaction only when their children leave home. Despite what we read in the popular press, the only known symptom of “empty nest syndrome” is increased smiling. Interestingly, this pattern of satisfaction over the life cycle describes women (who are usually the primary caretakers of children) better than men. Careful studies of how women feel as they go about their daily activities show that they are less happy when taking care of their children than when eating, exercising, shopping, napping, or watching television. Indeed, looking after the kids appears to be only slightly more pleasant than doing housework.

None of this should surprise us. Every parent knows that children are a lot of work – a lot of really hard work – and although parenting has many rewarding moments, the vast majority of its moments involve dull and selfless service to people who will take decades to become even begrudgingly grateful for what we are doing. If parenting is such difficult business, then why do we have such a rosy view of it? One reason is that we have been talking on the phone all day with society’s stockholders – our moms and uncles and personal trainers – who have been transmitting to us an idea that they believe to be true but whose accuracy is not the cause of its successful transmission. “Children bring happiness” is a super-replicator. The belief-transmission network of which we are a part cannot operate without a continuously replenished supply of people to do the transmitting, thus the belief that children are a source of happiness becomes a part of our cultural wisdom simply because the opposite belief unravels the fabric of any society that holds it. Indeed, people who believed that children bring misery and despair – and who thus stopped having them – would put their belief-transmission network out of business in around fifty years, hence terminating the belief that terminated them. The Shakers were a utopian farming community that arose in the 1800s and at one time numbered about six thousand. They approved of children, but they did not approve of the natural act that creates them. Over the years, their strict belief in the importance of celibacy caused their network to contract, and today there are just a few elderly Shakers left, transmitting their doomsday belief to no one but themselves.

The belief-transmission game is rigged so that we must believe that children and money bring happiness, regardless of whether such beliefs are true. This doesn’t mean that we should all now quit our jobs and abandon our families. Rather, it means that while we believe we are raising children and earning paychecks to increase our share of happiness, we are actually doing these things for reasons beyond our ken. We are nodes in a social network that arises and falls by a logic of its own, which is why we continue to toil, continue to mate, and continue to be surprised when we do not experience all the joy we so gullibly anticipated.

See also:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2...-no-grief/

CarrieMpls said:

Lammastide said:

Carrie, I'm just curious: Until recently, what have been your goals in life that kids were completely out of the picture?

Well, considering I didn’t want to get married until about 5 years ago, that was part of it. I wouldn’t have a child alone.

One of the biggest goals now that concerns me is we both want to open our own businesses, hopefully in the next few years. If we’re only taking care of ourselves and we both fail, that’s not fun, but it’s not as big a deal. I also worry about medical insurance… I feel like it’s all too much risk if you have someone else to take care of.

Another big one is travel. It’s one of my biggest passions in life and I worry about how to make that work, both financially and logistically with a child.

I dont understand why you think your life or dreams have to end just because you would have children?? Even if you couldnt travel for whatever reason life isnt over after the kids leave the house... Youd only be 55 years old in 20 years...

Having kids was always my life's dream... There is nothing more satisfying than coming home to your children and having them excited to see you! Cuddling on the couch watching cartoons, kisses and hugs, bedtime stories, trick or treating, the joy of seeing how proud they were of something they did, playing out in the snow and making hot chocolate, christmas time and baking goodies, I could go on forever! And I couldnt of imagined doing any traveling WITHOUT my children! They loved the experiences and I loved showing it to them..

Sure, becoming a parent is a very scary thought but once they put that baby in your arms all the fear fades away and you cant worry about living up to your "expectations" cuz they all fly out the window... There is no perfect parenting, as long as their is love in your home and the children feel safe, thats all you can do! As kids get older they do things you dont agree with, but they must learn from their mistakes as you have...

My heart aches so much now that they are grown and gone.. I would give up EVERYTHING I have right now to have them back, thats how wonderful being a parent is... Now that they are grown adults, its great that they come to me for advice, or want me to cook their favorite things, its not quite the same as when they were younger but its just as great..

I (we) raised two wonderful human beings and I couldnt be prouder! Was I the perfect parent? Probably not, but I did the best I could and my children love me for what I am, to sum it up in 3 words...

ITS FRIGGIN AWESOME!

Lammastide said:

When I was younger, I never in a zillion years saw myself in a LTR. To a woman, no doubt!! And with a kid!!! I was perfectly content with -- even looking forward to -- the prospects of finding my perfect little rehabilitated historical townhouse in some coastal city, a bunch of oriental rugs, art and crap from all corners of the world to decorate it, a BMW, an amazing computer setup and a swanky, purebred cat or two to keep me company. Yeah...

Life happens, however. And while even now I have regular "how in blue HELL did I get here?" moments, I can't imagine how I could have anywhere near as fulfilling a life without my daughter (who, to be painfully honest, I could have pretty much done without until very moment I saw her, as she was my wife's idea). It's tough to explain -- and I'm aware this isn't true for everyone -- but life since meeting my little girl has been like good sex suddenly without a condom: I feel so many things differently, more closely, better. Things in my life I thought were important have shown themselves to be pointless distractions, while other things I ignored have taken on a new importance and richness. My anger is angrier. My sadness is sadder. My happiness is happier. My sense of privilege, responsibility, reward, freedom and consequence is privileg-ier, responsibilit-ier, reward-ier, um... you understand. To the point: Life, with all of its highs and lows, was blown open for me, making for a much more lush adventure... and now I have this beautiful little soul to experience that with and contextualize it all for me, because in her I have a tangible, intimate investment in the notion that everything I'm experiencing proceeds before, beyond and, hopefully, long after me. In a sense, she's showing me what life is about.

It's big work, but I'm learning so much, and I'm having a ball!

[Edited 9/20/10 12:15pm]

I'm already feeling a lot of this, and I'm only expecting my first (a girl!) in November.

My attitude always was, if it happens, it happens. I could never settle down and plan for it. My career was always my primary focus, and you know what? Even when you achieve your goals they're replaced by new ones. The ghost of a child lay somewhere in my future - when I would be financially secure - and you know what? My tastes always accomodated and I just created more expensive preoccupations. A lot of the justifications I had for postponing it were stuck in this mindset, and when my girlfriend and I got over the shock that we were expecting, a lot of what I had been striving for seemed so petty now.

Every day feels richer and fuller, and I feel like something lit a fire under me (we've been doing a lot of nesting). There a strange relief when you are no longer the center of your universe.

Ottensen said:

JustErin said:

But brain deficiencies do not equal being born bad. It's a cop out, in my opinion.

All I'll say more is, if you think some people are born a bad seed, I wouldn't recommend you ever have kids.

So what does that mean for Brkln, considering she's a mom?

I'm just Auntie, having to play mom. But I was lucky enough to be there when my nephew was born and to see his personality even as a lil baby, and I know the environment he was raised in, and how I have been raising him, and the mental issues on both sides of his families.

I also don't believe Jeffery Dahmer parents raised him to eat people. I don't believe people's parents make them gay. I don't think children that are told and shown relentlessly not to lie or steal would keep lying and stealing unless they have some sort of problem. I also get real tired of people saying "children do this, and children do that" like it all stops when you turn 18, when we already know adults do the same things. Some adults are loud and obnoxious individuals. Many adults act in ways that are just crazy or foul. All people are born different and some are not born "right". You can even see this with dog and cats, so why would people be different.

It's not just having a child...it's raising a human being. It's a lot of work, and sometimes there are rewards and sometimes there is pain. There's no easy answer because the positive and negative are all wrapped up together

This is why you need to be sure it's something you really want in your life before you do it, and something you do for yourself and not anyone else. There are too many children being neglected, abused, and even murdered by people that have no business being around children (Carrie is in no way that type of individual) yet society keeps telling people having children will make life better, and you will receive unconditional love from these kids, and etc etc.

There are no guarantees of anything when dealing with another person, so you should make damn sure it's something you are ready for. At least with marriage, if you really had to walk away, you could. Walking away from a child (and people do that too) is just wrong

Look at the positives:

you will love them ....(not a given)

they will love you....(not a given)

they will take care of you in your old age....(not a given)

Look at the negatives:

you will spend a buttload of money on them (given)

you will spend a chunkload of time with them (given)

you will change your life in a myriad of ways which may be good or bad (given)

Now if you are adaptable to deal with the good and bad and know what you are getting into, no probs. If not, then I think, with regards to bringing another life into this world, then you shouldn't do it until you are absolutely sure you can handle all of it.

I'm glad for people that have been enriched by having children, but for many people it is not enriching or fulfilling and you know who ends up losing....the children!

I commend you Carrie for initiating discussion and using your mind before your uterus It is a big step to take and you and bf should be discussing it. I think if you do decide to become a family one day, that is what would make your family be enriching to your own life, because you have communicated and made decisions together.

tinaz said:

CarrieMpls said:

Well, considering I didn’t want to get married until about 5 years ago, that was part of it. I wouldn’t have a child alone.

One of the biggest goals now that concerns me is we both want to open our own businesses, hopefully in the next few years. If we’re only taking care of ourselves and we both fail, that’s not fun, but it’s not as big a deal. I also worry about medical insurance… I feel like it’s all too much risk if you have someone else to take care of.

Another big one is travel. It’s one of my biggest passions in life and I worry about how to make that work, both financially and logistically with a child.

I dont understand why you think your life or dreams have to end just because you would have children?? Even if you couldnt travel for whatever reason life isnt over after the kids leave the house... Youd only be 55 years old in 20 years...

A lot of it has to do with us each wanting our own businesses. The first few years of a business generally mean long work hours (60+ hours a week), little income, private medical insurance…

And a lot of it comes down to having a child never being my “dream”. If it’s something I’d wanted my whole life, I’d probably already have an idea how to make it all work, or at the least I wouldn’t care about giving up other things to do it. Since it’s not something I’ve ever considered, I have to figure out how to fit it in and not sacrifice the other things. ‘Cause right now, I want those other things more. Or at least, first.

If I were 25 and trying to figure it all out it would be a different story. There would be plenty of time to make it all happen. Since I’m not, that makes things different. I think it may be too late for me…

Having kids was always my life's dream... There is nothing more satisfying than coming home to your children and having them excited to see you! Cuddling on the couch watching cartoons, kisses and hugs, bedtime stories, trick or treating, the joy of seeing how proud they were of something they did, playing out in the snow and making hot chocolate, christmas time and baking goodies, I could go on forever! And I couldnt of imagined doing any traveling WITHOUT my children! They loved the experiences and I loved showing it to them..

Sure, becoming a parent is a very scary thought but once they put that baby in your arms all the fear fades away and you cant worry about living up to your "expectations" cuz they all fly out the window... There is no perfect parenting, as long as their is love in your home and the children feel safe, thats all you can do! As kids get older they do things you dont agree with, but they must learn from their mistakes as you have...

My heart aches so much now that they are grown and gone.. I would give up EVERYTHING I have right now to have them back, thats how wonderful being a parent is... Now that they are grown adults, its great that they come to me for advice, or want me to cook their favorite things, its not quite the same as when they were younger but its just as great..

I (we) raised two wonderful human beings and I couldnt be prouder! Was I the perfect parent? Probably not, but I did the best I could and my children love me for what I am, to sum it up in 3 words...

ITS FRIGGIN AWESOME!

Thanks for sharing how it's made you happy.

When I had kids, I was young, way young. I didn't plan on having kids but I am glad I did. It's a feeling that is very hard to describe, but it's been worth it. Now that my kids are older I can look at who they have become etc... this brings me great joy.

Then there is the grandbabies...a love that is far different then having your own children that's for sure. I can't imagine my life without Miss Seyhan & Miss Zoey!

To be honest I would love to have another one...or even adopt one. My children gave me a sense of purpose in life.

But I agree with others, just leave the idea on the table, you never know what will happen with your relationship with your bf. You said yourself you never thought you would want to get married but those thoughts changed. You might change your mind on this as well.

If you don't mind me asking, what keeps you from having them? Are there more things you wish to do in your life? Do you just feel that having kids will hold you back?

CarrieMpls said:

tinaz said:

A lot of it has to do with us each wanting our own businesses. The first few years of a business generally mean long work hours (60+ hours a week), little income, private medical insurance…

And a lot of it comes down to having a child never being my “dream”. If it’s something I’d wanted my whole life, I’d probably already have an idea how to make it all work, or at the least I wouldn’t care about giving up other things to do it. Since it’s not something I’ve ever considered, I have to figure out how to fit it in and not sacrifice the other things. ‘Cause right now, I want those other things more. Or at least, first.

If I were 25 and trying to figure it all out it would be a different story. There would be plenty of time to make it all happen. Since I’m not, that makes things different. I think it may be too late for me…

Having kids was always my life's dream... There is nothing more satisfying than coming home to your children and having them excited to see you! Cuddling on the couch watching cartoons, kisses and hugs, bedtime stories, trick or treating, the joy of seeing how proud they were of something they did, playing out in the snow and making hot chocolate, christmas time and baking goodies, I could go on forever! And I couldnt of imagined doing any traveling WITHOUT my children! They loved the experiences and I loved showing it to them..

Sure, becoming a parent is a very scary thought but once they put that baby in your arms all the fear fades away and you cant worry about living up to your "expectations" cuz they all fly out the window... There is no perfect parenting, as long as their is love in your home and the children feel safe, thats all you can do! As kids get older they do things you dont agree with, but they must learn from their mistakes as you have...

My heart aches so much now that they are grown and gone.. I would give up EVERYTHING I have right now to have them back, thats how wonderful being a parent is... Now that they are grown adults, its great that they come to me for advice, or want me to cook their favorite things, its not quite the same as when they were younger but its just as great..

I (we) raised two wonderful human beings and I couldnt be prouder! Was I the perfect parent? Probably not, but I did the best I could and my children love me for what I am, to sum it up in 3 words...

ITS FRIGGIN AWESOME!

Thanks for sharing how it's made you happy.

i

I get what your saying for sure! the thing about kids is you either have to jump in with BOTH feet and just let it happen...or dont... But you already know that

See reply #71.

Ace said:

From Daniel Gilbert's Stumbling on Happiness:

When people are asked to identify their sources of joy, they do just what I do: They point to their kids.

Yet, if we measure the actual satisfaction of people who have children, a very different story emerges. As figure 2.3 shows, couples generally start out quite happy in their marriages and then become progressively less satisfied over the course of their lives together, getting close to their original levels of satisfaction only when their children leave home. Despite what we read in the popular press, the only known symptom of “empty nest syndrome” is increased smiling. Interestingly, this pattern of satisfaction over the life cycle describes women (who are usually the primary caretakers of children) better than men. Careful studies of how women feel as they go about their daily activities show that they are less happy when taking care of their children than when eating, exercising, shopping, napping, or watching television. Indeed, looking after the kids appears to be only slightly more pleasant than doing housework.

None of this should surprise us. Every parent knows that children are a lot of work – a lot of really hard work – and although parenting has many rewarding moments, the vast majority of its moments involve dull and selfless service to people who will take decades to become even begrudgingly grateful for what we are doing. If parenting is such difficult business, then why do we have such a rosy view of it? One reason is that we have been talking on the phone all day with society’s stockholders – our moms and uncles and personal trainers – who have been transmitting to us an idea that they believe to be true but whose accuracy is not the cause of its successful transmission. “Children bring happiness” is a super-replicator. The belief-transmission network of which we are a part cannot operate without a continuously replenished supply of people to do the transmitting, thus the belief that children are a source of happiness becomes a part of our cultural wisdom simply because the opposite belief unravels the fabric of any society that holds it. Indeed, people who believed that children bring misery and despair – and who thus stopped having them – would put their belief-transmission network out of business in around fifty years, hence terminating the belief that terminated them. The Shakers were a utopian farming community that arose in the 1800s and at one time numbered about six thousand. They approved of children, but they did not approve of the natural act that creates them. Over the years, their strict belief in the importance of celibacy caused their network to contract, and today there are just a few elderly Shakers left, transmitting their doomsday belief to no one but themselves.

The belief-transmission game is rigged so that we must believe that children and money bring happiness, regardless of whether such beliefs are true. This doesn’t mean that we should all now quit our jobs and abandon our families. Rather, it means that while we believe we are raising children and earning paychecks to increase our share of happiness, we are actually doing these things for reasons beyond our ken. We are nodes in a social network that arises and falls by a logic of its own, which is why we continue to toil, continue to mate, and continue to be surprised when we do not experience all the joy we so gullibly anticipated.

See also:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2...-no-grief/

Interesting stuff -- and, incidentally, I've got no beef with it. As a parent, I'll be the first to say that expecting a kid to introduce into your life some nondescript, all-consuming "happiness" is not only delusional, but grossly unfair to the kid. For sure, no one in the world right now can make me happier than my daughter, but having her isn't always a barrel of laughs. There is also sacrifice, fatigue and, sometimes, thanklessness. Moreover, it's also true no one in the world right now can push my buttons and make me angrier or more disappointed than my daughter... and there's no promise she'll be president one day and take good care of her old man.

But if my primary objective in life were encountering a constant stream of immediate, cheap and guaranteed gratification -- with no regard to others' life trajectories -- I can't imagine why I wouldn't have spent the first 20 years of life to become independently wealthy, only so I could then stock up on the best heroin, donuts and hookers to shoot, eat and screw myself into euphoria until God called me home. How much happier could you be than that?! Even in my most selfish moments (certainly moments wherein no spouse or child figured), some perfunctory happiness wasn't all I wanted out of life. I imagine I'm not unlike most others in that I've also wanted things like transformative experiences, variety, meaningful relationships, purpose, self discovery, maybe even a legacy, all of which cull a substantive, if not always visceral, happiness -- and while each of us has our own preferred routes to come by things like this, all I can say for myself is my kid has honestly made what had been a decent enough path that much more remarkable to walk.

[Edited 9/21/10 5:42am]

Had a child - she is now all grown up and has children of her own. The house doesn't feel like a home uness it has kids in it. Adopted two when I was 43 - they kids are now 8 and 7 (adopted them when they were 20 months and 10 months). Best thing ever. Love it. Love the laughter, the playing the joy they bring into the house. Revelling in their achievments and seeing the world through their eyes.

Its hard work believe me, they can be right norty little shits but this feeling of love for your children is overwhelming and indescribable.

I would die for my children. No one else but my children.

JustErin said:

BklynBabe said:

I disagree. I have met some shitty parents of awesome people and some shitty kids of awesome parents. Children are little people with their own minds and their own issues too. I think many people think you mold a child into what you want them to be but it really isn't that way at all. You are there to guide a future adult and hopefully show them how to make good choices and have good lives....that is a major responsibility to never be taken lightly.

Definitely the rewards of raising of a loving intelligent human being can be inspiring though.

It really is something that should be thought about.

As a parent, I am telling you that this is true.

You may know awesome people who have shit kids but you really don't know how they treat their kids. And shitty parents that have great kids are a result of some other person stepping in somewhere (teacher, friend, other relative) and giving them hope and better guidance.

And any good parent who has children knows that it's absolutely not about "molding them into what you want them to be".

You should never assume that just because you plan on being a great parent, your kid will turn out great.

Biological and genetic abnormalities happen, and some of them result in personality disorders that no amount of good parenting can reverse. It's obviously relatively rare, but totally within the realm of possibility.

PunkMistress said:

JustErin said:

As a parent, I am telling you that this is true.

You may know awesome people who have shit kids but you really don't know how they treat their kids. And shitty parents that have great kids are a result of some other person stepping in somewhere (teacher, friend, other relative) and giving them hope and better guidance.

And any good parent who has children knows that it's absolutely not about "molding them into what you want them to be".

You should never assume that just because you plan on being a great parent, your kid will turn out great.

Biological and genetic abnormalities happen, and some of them result in personality disorders that no amount of good parenting can reverse. It's obviously relatively rare, but totally within the realm of possibility.

This is true. A fact.

MoniGram said:

When I had kids, I was young, way young. I didn't plan on having kids but I am glad I did. It's a feeling that is very hard to describe, but it's been worth it. Now that my kids are older I can look at who they have become etc... this brings me great joy.

Then there is the grandbabies...a love that is far different then having your own children that's for sure. I can't imagine my life without Miss Seyhan & Miss Zoey!

To be honest I would love to have another one...or even adopt one. My children gave me a sense of purpose in life.

But I agree with others, just leave the idea on the table, you never know what will happen with your relationship with your bf. You said yourself you never thought you would want to get married but those thoughts changed. You might change your mind on this as well.

If you don't mind me asking, what keeps you from having them? Are there more things you wish to do in your life? Do you just feel that having kids will hold you back?

Like, why don’t I want kids?

Oh my gosh, where do I start? Here a just a few:

Kids are incredibly expensive. I’ve always been able to take care of myself, but I don’t know if I can take care of someone else too.

Freedom – to do what I want, when I want to. I’ve never wanted a dog because it was too much commitment – always having to be home at certain times to let it out, all the training involved, etc. Multiply all that commitment (time, resources, energy, money, etc.) by a million with a child.

Kids are a tremendous amount of work. I’m generally a pretty lazy person. I don’t think those two things mix very well.

Kids have never really interested me. Really.

And the biggest is it’s such an awesome responsibility. As I said before, I have very high ideals on how I feel a child should be raised and I don’t know that I’d live up to them. Being a bad parent is probably the worst thing I could imagine for my life, the biggest failure as a person ever. There are plenty of other things I’m good at and like to do. And for most of my life would rather do.

Now, all that said, I’m trying to see the other side.

PunkMistress said:

JustErin said:

As a parent, I am telling you that this is true.

You may know awesome people who have shit kids but you really don't know how they treat their kids. And shitty parents that have great kids are a result of some other person stepping in somewhere (teacher, friend, other relative) and giving them hope and better guidance.

And any good parent who has children knows that it's absolutely not about "molding them into what you want them to be".

You should never assume that just because you plan on being a great parent, your kid will turn out great.

Biological and genetic abnormalities happen, and some of them result in personality disorders that no amount of good parenting can reverse. It's obviously relatively rare, but totally within the realm of possibility.

Sure, genetic abnormalities can happen but as you said they are rare.

I still stand by shitty parents raise shitty kids, good parents raise good kids. People will do anything to take the responsibility off themselves and saying a kid was born bad is the excuse that many, many bad parents use.

Like Carrie said, the awesome people she knows have awesome kids....same with me. I don't know asshole kids because I'm not friends with asshole parents.

Let me be the umpteenth person on this thread to mention the utter, complete, unconditional love.

My kids are all teens and preteens, but they still love to come and curl up beside me, just to feel the closeness of my body. When they do that, or when they ask me a question about life, with this expectant glow in their eyes that says they just know I'll have the right answer (even if I don't)...it's hard to describe, but I'm trying. It validates you. It fills you with the knowledge that you are one hundred percent lovable and loved. It humbles and exalts you all at the same time. My children don't love me because I'm nice, or smart, or funny, or pretty or whatever. I'm sure there are qualities I have that make them like me more (or dislike me more, lol), but their love is like something supernatural that just is, because I am their mother. Part of it is biological; that incredible bond that you share with a human being that you actually formed inside your body, then cared for and protected from harm when they were an exquisitely vulnerable tiny little thing. But two of my children aren't my biological kids, and that incredible love is present with them, too. It's like God, in that God is Love sense.

Thanks for this thread, Carrie. Reflecting on this has made me feel really happy inside.

CarrieMpls said:

MoniGram said:

When I had kids, I was young, way young. I didn't plan on having kids but I am glad I did. It's a feeling that is very hard to describe, but it's been worth it. Now that my kids are older I can look at who they have become etc... this brings me great joy.

Then there is the grandbabies...a love that is far different then having your own children that's for sure. I can't imagine my life without Miss Seyhan & Miss Zoey!

To be honest I would love to have another one...or even adopt one. My children gave me a sense of purpose in life.

But I agree with others, just leave the idea on the table, you never know what will happen with your relationship with your bf. You said yourself you never thought you would want to get married but those thoughts changed. You might change your mind on this as well.

If you don't mind me asking, what keeps you from having them? Are there more things you wish to do in your life? Do you just feel that having kids will hold you back?

Like, why don’t I want kids?

Oh my gosh, where do I start? Here a just a few:

Kids are incredibly expensive. I’ve always been able to take care of myself, but I don’t know if I can take care of someone else too.

Freedom – to do what I want, when I want to. I’ve never wanted a dog because it was too much commitment – always having to be home at certain times to let it out, all the training involved, etc. Multiply all that commitment (time, resources, energy, money, etc.) by a million with a child.

Kids are a tremendous amount of work. I’m generally a pretty lazy person. I don’t think those two things mix very well.

Kids have never really interested me. Really.

And the biggest is it’s such an awesome responsibility. As I said before, I have very high ideals on how I feel a child should be raised and I don’t know that I’d live up to them. Being a bad parent is probably the worst thing I could imagine for my life, the biggest failure as a person ever. There are plenty of other things I’m good at and like to do. And for most of my life would rather do.

Now, all that said, I’m trying to see the other side.

I think that it is good that you are weighing up the pros and cons about it all and realising what you are capable of or not. Don't get me wrong I am not criticisng in the slighest in fact I think you are being extremely sensible about it all and I wish that more people would self analyse.

Does anyone else think she may be OVER thinking it? I mean sure, if I weighed the pros and cons of having children BEFORE i had them, who in their right mind would of ever had them!

MarkThrust said:

Lammastide said:

When I was younger, I never in a zillion years saw myself in a LTR. To a woman, no doubt!! And with a kid!!! I was perfectly content with -- even looking forward to -- the prospects of finding my perfect little rehabilitated historical townhouse in some coastal city, a bunch of oriental rugs, art and crap from all corners of the world to decorate it, a BMW, an amazing computer setup and a swanky, purebred cat or two to keep me company. Yeah...

Life happens, however. And while even now I have regular "how in blue HELL did I get here?" moments, I can't imagine how I could have anywhere near as fulfilling a life without my daughter (who, to be painfully honest, I could have pretty much done without until very moment I saw her, as she was my wife's idea). It's tough to explain -- and I'm aware this isn't true for everyone -- but life since meeting my little girl has been like good sex suddenly without a condom: I feel so many things differently, more closely, better. Things in my life I thought were important have shown themselves to be pointless distractions, while other things I ignored have taken on a new importance and richness. My anger is angrier. My sadness is sadder. My happiness is happier. My sense of privilege, responsibility, reward, freedom and consequence is privileg-ier, responsibilit-ier, reward-ier, um... you understand. To the point: Life, with all of its highs and lows, was blown open for me, making for a much more lush adventure... and now I have this beautiful little soul to experience that with and contextualize it all for me, because in her I have a tangible, intimate investment in the notion that everything I'm experiencing proceeds before, beyond and, hopefully, long after me. In a sense, she's showing me what life is about.

It's big work, but I'm learning so much, and I'm having a ball!

[Edited 9/20/10 12:15pm]

I'm already feeling a lot of this, and I'm only expecting my first (a girl!) in November.

My attitude always was, if it happens, it happens. I could never settle down and plan for it. My career was always my primary focus, and you know what? Even when you achieve your goals they're replaced by new ones. The ghost of a child lay somewhere in my future - when I would be financially secure - and you know what? My tastes always accomodated and I just created more expensive preoccupations. A lot of the justifications I had for postponing it were stuck in this mindset, and when my girlfriend and I got over the shock that we were expecting, a lot of what I had been striving for seemed so petty now.

Every day feels richer and fuller, and I feel like something lit a fire under me (we've been doing a lot of nesting). There a strange relief when you are no longer the center of your universe.

The TRUTH!

Congrats and God bless! PLEASE let us know when thre big day arrives!

children are satanic. avoid.

if i need unconditional love, i'll go have a wank.

tinaz said:

Does anyone else think she may be OVER thinking it? I mean sure, if I weighed the pros and cons of having children BEFORE i had them, who in their right mind would of ever had them!

I weighed up the pros and cons before adopting and for me the pros won. But for some people they dont need children to complete their lives.

blueblossom said:

tinaz said:

Does anyone else think she may be OVER thinking it? I mean sure, if I weighed the pros and cons of having children BEFORE i had them, who in their right mind would of ever had them!

I weighed up the pros and cons before adopting and for me the pros won. But for some people they dont need children to complete their lives.

But didnt you say you had already had children... You knew what to expect, and what the feelings were...

Im just saying, how many of us who have children really did all this thinking and analyzing?

JustErin said:

PunkMistress said:

You should never assume that just because you plan on being a great parent, your kid will turn out great.

Biological and genetic abnormalities happen, and some of them result in personality disorders that no amount of good parenting can reverse. It's obviously relatively rare, but totally within the realm of possibility.

Sure, genetic abnormalities can happen but as you said they are rare.

I still stand by shitty parents raise shitty kids, good parents raise good kids. People will do anything to take the responsibility off themselves and saying a kid was born bad is the excuse that many, many bad parents use.

Like Carrie said, the awesome people she knows have awesome kids....same with me. I don't know asshole kids because I'm not friends with asshole parents.

I agree with you, and this is exactly why I've devoted so much of my energy to teaching my kids to be good people - because that's what it takes. You have to model and teach kindness, humility, respect, manners, and all around ackrite (I told you I'm stealing your word, BklynBabe!). There are so many examples of horrible behavior all around, and it's sometimes a big job to counteract all of that.

I was just thinking about Carrie, and how much she enjoys her freedom and independence. The decision to have a child should always include the idea that you might not end up with a fantastic kid who will fit nicely into your life, and that's what I was getting at.

tinaz said:

blueblossom said:

I weighed up the pros and cons before adopting and for me the pros won. But for some people they dont need children to complete their lives.

But didnt you say you had already had children... You knew what to expect, and what the feelings were...

Im just saying, how many of us who have children really did all this thinking and analyzing?

Lots of us probably should have.

I wish it was a decision more people put some actual thought into beyond "damn, fucking feels great without a condom!"

Don't do it, girl!!

I don't really have much to add from the perspective of a parent, because I'm not one. But I have never had the maternal "instinct". It was a big problem with my ex-, he wanted kids and I stood my ground. Now he's married with a kid and I'm still happily unmarried & childless! My only advice is pretty much along the same lines as what Nothinbutjoy said, it's good that you're discussing it now and if you really don't want them, don't let anyone talk you into it.

Good luck with the decision!

orger said:

CarrieMpls said:

See - I worry about that too.

I've lived alone for 10-ish years. It's hard enough to think about living with my bf someday, let alone someone else who can basically never be left alone for years on end.

before I became a parent

nothing bothered me worse than a crying baby

my perspective totally changed once the baby was my own

now, kids that are loud at inappropriate times still bother me

mainly because there is a parent that is allowing them to be that way

but I'm certainly more tolerant of it

there are people that complain in general about children acting like children

dont go to a playground expecting peace and quiet

dont expect a child to use their inside voice outside

adults need to let kids enjoy their time as children

as long as its in an appropriate time and place

most of us have totally forgotten what it was like to be a child

thats our problem, not theirs

you're right, and I certainly don't blame kids for being that way. My dad did, and I vowed to never be like that.

But that doesn't make me like their noise any more (because you can never avoid it entirely, of course). And it certainly is something to consider when having them. They are noisy!

PunkMistress said:

tinaz said:

But didnt you say you had already had children... You knew what to expect, and what the feelings were...

Im just saying, how many of us who have children really did all this thinking and analyzing?

Lots of us probably should have.

I wish it was a decision more people put some actual thought into beyond "damn, fucking feels great without a condom!"

but seriously, all Im saying is, did you analyze it that much, and if you didnt but thought you should have, can you say you regret what you did... Im gonna say no, so my point is, im not trying to say she should have kids because obviously she really doesnt want them, what im saying is, sometimes people think to much... You either wanna share your life and devote it to children or you dont... you shouldnt have to talk yourself into it..

missing word edit

[Edited 9/20/10 14:18pm]

tinaz said:

blueblossom said:

I weighed up the pros and cons before adopting and for me the pros won. But for some people they dont need children to complete their lives.

But didnt you say you had already had children... You knew what to expect, and what the feelings were...

Im just saying, how many of us who have children really did all this thinking and analyzing?

I understand where you are coming from. Have to say that even when adopting you don't know what to expect because each child is different and my two are as different as chalk and cheese (bless 'em!)

I think that self analysis before having children is a good thing (impractical I know) because to have children on a biological and emotional impulse and then realise that you are not cut out for parenthood is a bit too late. So many children need homes today through adoption because people could not cope one way or another.

I also acknowledge that many parents who have gone ahead and had children and found it to be a wonderful experience.

I suppose its each to his own as they say.

I've said this before: I kept putting off having a baby, waiting for the "right guy" to have one with, putting my schooling and career first...

Then in 2008 it no longer became my choice- physically.

To me, being able to have a baby is the biggest blessing in the world. It hurts me very much that I will never give birth.

(and I am so tired of being told I can adopt. I know that. I'm talking about having my ability as a female animal to bear young taken away. )

blueblossom said:

tinaz said:

But didnt you say you had already had children... You knew what to expect, and what the feelings were...

Im just saying, how many of us who have children really did all this thinking and analyzing?

I understand where you are coming from. Have to say that even when adopting you don't know what to expect because each child is different and my two are as different as chalk and cheese (bless 'em!)

I think that self analysis before having children is a good thing (impractical I know) because to have children on a biological and emotional impulse and then realise that you are not cut out for parenthood is a bit too late. So many children need homes today through adoption because people could not cope one way or another.

I also acknowledge that many parents who have gone ahead and had children and found it to be a wonderful experience.

I suppose its each to his own as they say.

I agree, but your will never know if you were cut out for it until you have them... And watching other peoples kids isnt even close to the same so whats a girl to do!!