Two things I must add...

1) I still want my damned BMW... and I won't be letting her eat in the back seat.

2) At some point above, it sounds like my daughter brought out a certain bipolar tendency in me. In her defense, I admit I had that going on probably before her.

Shorty said:

JustErin said:

But brain deficiencies do not equal being born bad. It's a cop out, in my opinion.

All I'll say more is, if you think some people are born a bad seed, I wouldn't recommend you ever have kids.

when I said brain deficiencies I didn't mean like slow or some condition with a name on it...I just mean I think people who masacre or serial killers ....truely bad people...there is something wrong upstairs....it ain't just their parenting or upbringing, more likely a combo of the 2.

I have kids.

I disagree.

Why are you telling me you have kids? I know you do.

Lammastide said:

When I was younger, I never in a zillion years saw myself in a LTR. To a woman, no doubt!! And with a kid!!! I was perfectly content with -- even looking forward to -- the prospects of finding my perfect little rehabilitated historical townhouse in some coastal city, a bunch of oriental rugs, art and crap from all corners of the world to decorate it, a BMW, an amazing computer setup and a swanky, purebred cat or two to keep me company. Yeah...

Life happens, however. And while even now I have regular "how in blue HELL did I get here?" moments, I can't imagine how I could have anywhere near as fulfilling a life without my daughter (who, to be painfully honest, I could have pretty much done without until very moment I saw her, as she was my wife's idea). It's tough to explain -- and I'm aware this isn't true for everyone -- but life since meeting my little girl has been like good sex suddenly without a condom: I feel so many things differently, more closely, better. Things in my life I thought were important have shown themselves to be pointless distractions, while other things I ignored have taken on a new importance and richness. My anger is more angrier. My sadness is sadder. My happiness is happier. My sense of privilege, responsibility, reward, freedom and consequence is privileg-ier, responsibilit-ier, reward-ier, um... you understand. To the point: Life, with all of its highs and lows, was blown open for me, making for a much more lush adventure... and now I have this beautiful little soul to experience that with and contextualize it all for me, because in her I have a tangible, intimate investment in the notion that everything I'm experiencing proceeds before, beyond and, hopefully, long after me. In a sense, she's showing me what life is about.

It's big work, but I'm learning so much, and I'm having a ball!

[Edited 9/20/10 11:50am]

I like this. Just about sums it up for me.

JustErin said:

Carrie already knows all the advantages of NOT having kids since she doesn't have any.

She was asking parents to talk about the advantages and why they think it's worth it.

Yeah, I don’t need help figuring out what I’ll be giving up as honestly, that’s ALL I’ve focused on since I ever began to contemplate having a child. One of the reasons I never thought I’d have kids is I have very high ideals on how I feel children should be raised and I didn’t think I’d ever live up to them.

Now I’m thinking it’s possible, I just have to figure out how to do ALL the things I want and raise a kid too.

But I do appreciate all of the comments. This is what I love about the org. The diverse opinions and willingness to share with each other.

sermwanderer said:

CarrieMpls said:

What makes it all worth it?

My bf and I are at a bit of a cross roads. He has made it clear to me he’d like to have a baby (someday). I have made it clear to him that that’s never been a goal of mine. So now we both have a lot to think about. I’m willing to reconsider my position (provided we’re still together and married down the road) as long as we can figure out how to have a baby and still accomplish our other life goals. But he’s also got to consider the possibility that it may never happen. I’m making no promises right now.

So tell me all about the advantages! I know all of the reasons I don’t want one as that’s all I’ve ever focused on my whole life. I want to hear about why it’s the greatest thing ever to be a parent.

I honestly couldnt think of one positive thing about having a baby. Then my wife gave birth and my son smiled at me. I come home looking forward to seeing him every day. Just being with him and being his dad is the positive.

I never thought I'd be like that, but it just happens.

I have, however, maintained my stance that people DO NOT want to hear me talk about my child.

Excellent.

CarrieMpls said:

JustErin said:

Carrie already knows all the advantages of NOT having kids since she doesn't have any.

She was asking parents to talk about the advantages and why they think it's worth it.

Yeah, I don’t need help figuring out what I’ll be giving up as honestly, that’s ALL I’ve focused on since I ever began to contemplate having a child. One of the reasons I never thought I’d have kids is I have very high ideals on how I feel children should be raised and I didn’t think I’d ever live up to them.

Now I’m thinking it’s possible, I just have to figure out how to do ALL the things I want and raise a kid too.

But I do appreciate all of the comments. This is what I love about the org. The diverse opinions and willingness to share with each other.

You know....

Even parents who fill the bill of ideal raising, then have children who resent them because they were control freaks

It's all an experiment, every single time. It will unfold the way it should for you, and no matter how prepared you are there will be surprises. And not matter how much you think you might not rise to the occassion, you will surprise yourself more often than not That's just how it is raising kids.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Carrie, I don't envy your position. Nature made sure there was zero questioning for me and I appreciate that FULLY! good luck figuring all this out.

Thanks, Richard.

My GF & I do not have kids, but one thing she mentions re: the reasons to have them/the reasons to regret not having them is simply that we are made to have kids, so without them you miss out on one of the basic human experiences--especially as a woman, your body is made to have this experience of bringing life into the world. She says sometimes it feels like a waste to not let your body perform that essential function.

Still that's not very convincing to me (or to her)

[Edited 9/20/10 12:03pm]

NDRU said:

My GF & I do not have kids, but one thing she mentions re: the reasons to have them/the reasons to regret not having them is simply that we are made to have kids, so without them you miss out on one of the basic human experiences--especially as a woman, your body is made to have this experience of bringing life into the world. She says sometimes it feels like a waste to not let your body perform that essential function.

Still that's not very convincing to me (or to her)

[Edited 9/20/10 12:03pm]

It's the worst argument. Just because all the lousy people in the world happen to have bodies that made it possible for them to have kids doesn't mean they should have had kids! Look at all the amazing people who can't

orger said:

the person I've become because of my children

has made it worth it, for me

there is no doubt that I'm a better person because of them

and that has affected more lives than just theirs and mine

my entire outlook on things changed once a child became part of my life

there are countles examples I could give

but they're from my experience and every parents is different

here's one small example I'll share and it's trivial as can be

I recycle because of my kids, never did it before

I do it not because I want to make the world a better place

but because I want to make their world a better place

and I want to set that example for them in hope that they'll set it for their children,

should they have any

and that they'll continue to set positive examples throughout their lives

luckily, having kids didn't affect my goals

but it did make me set new ones, some that I'm still striving for

and some that I've already accomplished

there isn't any way I could think of to summarize

how becoming a parent has had such a positive, profound influence on me

an influence that has carried over into every aspect of my life

from my realtionships with other people

to how I plan for today and tomorrow

having children made me realize that

I'm not the most important person in the world

except to them

I'll continue to be the best father, best teacher and best provider

that I can be

I owe it to them and I owe it to all they'll ever come in contact with

Thank you.

I’ve never considered “bettering” myself for other people. I mean, I recycle ‘cause it’s the right thing to do for everyone, but not because it will directly impact, say, my nieces and nephews.

This is an interesting perspective to me.

Lammastide said:

When I was younger, I never in a zillion years saw myself in a LTR. To a woman, no doubt!! And with a kid!!! I was perfectly content with -- even looking forward to -- the prospects of finding my perfect little rehabilitated historical townhouse in some coastal city, a bunch of oriental rugs, art and crap from all corners of the world to decorate it, a BMW, an amazing computer setup and a swanky, purebred cat or two to keep me company. Yeah...

Life happens, however. And while even now I have regular "how in blue HELL did I get here?" moments, I can't imagine how I could have anywhere near as fulfilling a life without my daughter (who, to be painfully honest, I could have pretty much done without until very moment I saw her, as she was my wife's idea). It's tough to explain -- and I'm aware this isn't true for everyone -- but life since meeting my little girl has been like good sex suddenly without a condom: I feel so many things differently, more closely, better. Things in my life I thought were important have shown themselves to be pointless distractions, while other things I ignored have taken on a new importance and richness. My anger is more angrier. My sadness is sadder. My happiness is happier. My sense of privilege, responsibility, reward, freedom and consequence is privileg-ier, responsibilit-ier, reward-ier, um... you understand. To the point: Life, with all of its highs and lows, was blown open for me, making for a much more lush adventure... and now I have this beautiful little soul to experience that with and contextualize it all for me, because in her I have a tangible, intimate investment in the notion that everything I'm experiencing proceeds before, beyond and, hopefully, long after me. In a sense, she's showing me what life is about.

It's big work, but I'm learning so much, and I'm having a ball!

[Edited 9/20/10 11:50am]

Good stuff.

Very good stuff.

Kids are overrated................period.

Haven't read the entire thread, so this is probably a bunch of the same stuff already posted.

Pro-kids or con-kids is such a personal choice, IMHO, what matters is that you and your bf are on the same page, so it's super fantastic that ya'll are talking about this now. Very smart move.

If you really don't want kids, then don't have them just because he wants to.

If you and your bf aren't in any kind of rush to make this decision, leave the door open and really take your time deciding. It's a big decision. You're smart (totally a given) to listen to yourself about how you feel about it.

So no wise words or anything like that. Just a little cheerleading (RA-RA!!!) and encouragement for you. Listen to your gut. (RA-RA!!)

Graycap23 said:

Kids are overrated................period.

human beings in general are overrated

Carrie, I'm just curious: Until recently, what have been your goals in life that kids were completely out of the picture?

orger said:

Graycap23 said:

Kids are overrated................period.

human beings in general are overrated

No kidding.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

NDRU said:

My GF & I do not have kids, but one thing she mentions re: the reasons to have them/the reasons to regret not having them is simply that we are made to have kids, so without them you miss out on one of the basic human experiences--especially as a woman, your body is made to have this experience of bringing life into the world. She says sometimes it feels like a waste to not let your body perform that essential function.

Still that's not very convincing to me (or to her)

[Edited 9/20/10 12:03pm]

It's the worst argument. Just because all the lousy people in the world happen to have bodies that made it possible for them to have kids doesn't mean they should have had kids! Look at all the amazing people who can't

There's no argument for anyone to have kids! Humans are a cancer on this planet.

I'm speaking from a selfish point of view about living your life and experiencing what the world has to offer.

.

[Edited 9/21/10 7:37am]

orger said:

Graycap23 said:

Kids are overrated................period.

human beings in general are overrated

Agreed.

CarrieMpls said:

I’ve never considered “bettering” myself for other people. I mean, I recycle ‘cause it’s the right thing to do for everyone, but not because it will directly impact, say, my nieces and nephews.

This is an interesting perspective to me.

my recycle example was pretty stupid

but I can honestly say that before I became a father

I didnt look past my own nose

my life centered around one thing, me

and I never took much time to consider my actions

and how those actions affected others

not that I was out looting and pillaging

ok maybe just a little looting and pillaging

Nothinbutjoy said:

Haven't read the entire thread, so this is probably a bunch of the same stuff already posted.

Pro-kids or con-kids is such a personal choice, IMHO, what matters is that you and your bf are on the same page, so it's super fantastic that ya'll are talking about this now. Very smart move.

If you really don't want kids, then don't have them just because he wants to.

If you and your bf aren't in any kind of rush to make this decision, leave the door open and really take your time deciding. It's a big decision. You're smart (totally a given) to listen to yourself about how you feel about it.

So no wise words or anything like that. Just a little cheerleading (RA-RA!!!) and encouragement for you. Listen to your gut. (RA-RA!!)

Thanks, lady!

I wouldn't say there is a rush, but we are both of an age that if our goals in this aspect don't match, it doesn't make a lot of sense to continue in a relationship.

I don’t think we have to decide immediately, but, well, I’m 35 and only going to get older. This is the magical age where chance of conception starts to plummet and chance of birth defects starts to rise. And while I know there are all kinds of options should natural methods prove difficult (including adoption) I also know I don’t want to just be getting started when I’m 40.

So yeah. I’m thinking about it cause it’s time to think about it.

Graycap23 said:

Kids are overrated................period.

I was hiking yesterday and could tell I was nearing a campsite because of the shrill roar of children

They never shut up

Lammastide said:

Carrie, I'm just curious: Until recently, what have been your goals in life that kids were completely out of the picture?

Well, considering I didn’t want to get married until about 5 years ago, that was part of it. I wouldn’t have a child alone.

One of the biggest goals now that concerns me is we both want to open our own businesses, hopefully in the next few years. If we’re only taking care of ourselves and we both fail, that’s not fun, but it’s not as big a deal. I also worry about medical insurance… I feel like it’s all too much risk if you have someone else to take care of.

Another big one is travel. It’s one of my biggest passions in life and I worry about how to make that work, both financially and logistically with a child.

NDRU said:

I was hiking yesterday and could tell I was nearing a campsite because of the shrill roar of children

They never shut up

See - I worry about that too.

I've lived alone for 10-ish years. It's hard enough to think about living with my bf someday, let alone someone else who can basically never be left alone for years on end.

orger said:

CarrieMpls said:

I’ve never considered “bettering” myself for other people. I mean, I recycle ‘cause it’s the right thing to do for everyone, but not because it will directly impact, say, my nieces and nephews.

This is an interesting perspective to me.

my recycle example was pretty stupid

but I can honestly say that before I became a father

I didnt look past my own nose

my life centered around one thing, me

and I never took much time to consider my actions

and how those actions affected others

not that I was out looting and pillaging

ok maybe just a little looting and pillaging

That makes a lot of sense. And sounds like a positive thing.

Taken to an extreme, though, it speaks to one of my fears as well. I am a very self-centered person. I actually worry about losing that. I worry about losing myself.

Becoming a parent would, for me, be such a monumental change I’m afraid I won’t be “me” anymore. Maybe that’s silly, but it’s totally a worry of mine.

JustErin said:

Shorty said:

kinda going off topic here but...

I do think some people are born with certain brain deficancies or what have you that may make them...bad. I think it's both...what your born with combined with your up bringing.

But brain deficiencies do not equal being born bad. It's a cop out, in my opinion.

All I'll say more is, if you think some people are born a bad seed, I wouldn't recommend you ever have kids.

So what does that mean for Brkln, considering she's a mom?

JustErin said:

Shorty said:

when I said brain deficiencies I didn't mean like slow or some condition with a name on it...I just mean I think people who masacre or serial killers ....truely bad people...there is something wrong upstairs....it ain't just their parenting or upbringing, more likely a combo of the 2.

I have kids.

I disagree.

Why are you telling me you have kids? I know you do.

ok so we disagree.

because I assumed you were talking to me and you said "if you think some people are born a bad seed, I wouldn't recommend you ever have kids."

der!

CarrieMpls said:

NDRU said:

I was hiking yesterday and could tell I was nearing a campsite because of the shrill roar of children

They never shut up

See - I worry about that too.

I've lived alone for 10-ish years. It's hard enough to think about living with my bf someday, let alone someone else who can basically never be left alone for years on end.

before I became a parent

nothing bothered me worse than a crying baby

my perspective totally changed once the baby was my own

now, kids that are loud at inappropriate times still bother me

mainly because there is a parent that is allowing them to be that way

but I'm certainly more tolerant of it

there are people that complain in general about children acting like children

dont go to a playground expecting peace and quiet

dont expect a child to use their inside voice outside

adults need to let kids enjoy their time as children

as long as its in an appropriate time and place

most of us have totally forgotten what it was like to be a child

thats our problem, not theirs

Graycap23 said:

Kids are overrated................period.