Gay aesthetic appropriation to be specific.

I get that he was in touch with both sides but according to those who grew up with him he did in fact study the mannerisms of gay hairdressers in his area along with wanting to imitate David Bowie and Little Richard.

Later in his career some of his work TRC contained homophobic content along with some reports that he refused to work with Wendy and Lisa due to their sexual orientation.

It seemed like he enjoyed playing with the ambiguous sexuality angle (neither denying nor confirming, homoerotic lovesexy cover etc...) to his convenience but then when it no longer served him, he dropped it.

In this day and age he would have been called out for it I'm sure. It seems like he got away with a lot in the 80's.

There is so much wrong with this question. Let's start with the basics.

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Why on earth would you assume Prince would be just like he was in the 1970s and 80s if instead he was a youth in the 2020s?

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Why stereotype people as being just like hairdressers, David Bowie and Little Richard just because of their sexual orientation?

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Have you noticed how cool it is to be or support others being non-binary today?

LoveGalore said:

As a gay, I don't give a true fuck.

THIS.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

RJOrion said:

Of course not... most people believe/believed Prince was gay/bisexual himself.

But he wasn't that's the thing. He's even said so himself (his song "Don't Play Me" for exemple).

paisleyparkgirl said:

Questions like these are impossible because you are the product of your times and what you come from. Prince wouldnt be the same person now if he was just starting NOR do I feel someone like Prince could come from these times, sorry I just don't, much like a Marvin gaye, Stevie, Elton etc... could never come from today no matter how you spin it its different times. This is why cancel culture of the past is BS because you are saying that your 2020's self wouldnt be doing dumb shit or saying a certain word or making a certain joke in the culture of a different time, cancel culture and just cancelling to me is a way for a "confused" generation trying to be and think its morally superior over another but erasing it, thats actually pretty scary thought process. So to me a 1980 PRINCE would never even have been formed by these times, case closed.

RJOrion said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

But he wasn't that's the thing. He's even said so himself (his song "Don't Play Me" for exemple).

That song is from 1998... early in Prince's career, and throughout his prime, most people thought or assumed he was gay or bisexual...there was no thoughts of him "appropriating" gay culture because he was widely believed to be a part of that culture, and even an icon for that culture...it wasnt until much later in his career that he began to try to distance himself from that gender bending aesthetic and behavior, for reasons known ONLY to him... we as fans cant and dont know for sure what his true sexual identity or sexual experiences were...artists lie and/or twist the truth in their lyrics every day...since the beginning of time...Prince was no different

I actually pondered these thoughts after coming across a Morris Day interview on the Breakfast Club and someone made a comment on how back then him and Prince could be feminine but nobody asked whether or not they were gay and he corrected him by saying that people actually thought that but they did it purposely to get a reaction and be noticed even on Morris Day's side though he admitted that he never went as far as Prince did.

paisleyparkgirl said:

RJOrion said:

Of course not... most people believe/believed Prince was gay/bisexual himself.

But he wasn't that's the thing. He's even said so himself (his song "Don't Play Me" for exemple).

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No, the thing is he NEVER said he was and I do not agree that "most" people believed he was - This was often just hopeful thinking by those who did.

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Prince appropriated nothing and everything, just like everybody - Not just artists, everybody.

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Whilst there are genuine highly inappropriate and disrespectful cultural appropriations, most of the time when people accuse others of it, it is the accuser making shit up. Outside of the genuine accusations, it is the accusers who are at fault.

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You cannot appropriate a separate culture if there is no separate and unified culture. There are myriad LGTQIA+ communities within cultures worldwide all very different because they "appropriate" different things from the culture they are part of. You cannot stereotype people and assume an artist has stolen your stereotype.

paisleyparkgirl said:

IanRG said:

IanRG said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

But he wasn't that's the thing. He's even said so himself (his song "Don't Play Me" for exemple).

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No, the thing is he NEVER said he was and I do not agree that "most" people believed he was - This was often just hopeful thinking by those who did.

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Prince appropriated nothing and everything, just like everybody - Not just artists, everybody.

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Whilst there are genuine highly inappropriate and disrespectful cultural appropriations, most of the time when people accuse others of it, it is the accuser making shit up. Outside of the genuine accusations, it is the accusers who are at fault.

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You cannot appropriate a separate culture if there is no separate and unified culture. There are myriad LGTQIA+ communities within cultures worldwide all very different because they "appropriate" different things from the culture they are part of. You cannot stereotype people and assume an artist has stolen your stereotype.

I never said I had a problem with it, but in the PC culture we're living these days, unless he was also an advocate for LGBTQ rights, I can see why some would see an issue similar to how some white influencers appropriate black culture without understanding the struggle behind it.

IanRG said:

RJOrion said:

IanRG said:

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No, the thing is he NEVER said he was and I do not agree that "most" people believed he was - This was often just hopeful thinking by those who did.

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Prince appropriated nothing and everything, just like everybody - Not just artists, everybody.

.

Whilst there are genuine highly inappropriate and disrespectful cultural appropriations, most of the time when people accuse others of it, it is the accuser making shit up. Outside of the genuine accusations, it is the accusers who are at fault.

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You cannot appropriate a separate culture if there is no separate and unified culture. There are myriad LGTQIA+ communities within cultures worldwide all very different because they "appropriate" different things from the culture they are part of. You cannot stereotype people and assume an artist has stolen your stereotype.

Im not sure how old you are, or if you followed Prince at the very beginning of his career, but yes most people did suspect Prince was gay/bisexual during the popularity and appearances for his 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums...or maybe you didnt pay attention to the lyrics of Uptown or Controversy.. and maybe since youre not a member of the black community, you werent aware of its feelings about Prince from 79 - 82, wbich was documented in the words of people like Rick James, The GAP Band and many other members of the entertainment industry...it had zero to do with "hopeful thinking" or people making shit up...it was so prevalent that Prince himself apparently felt the need to address it on two almost consecutive hit single releases ... Uptown - ("What's up little girl? I ain't got time to play" Baby didn't say too much; she said, "Are you gay?") 1981 Controversy - ("I just can't believe all the things people say... Controversy... Am I black or white? Am I straight or gay?") 1982 You cant rewrite or whitewash history...we were there. [Edited 8/14/22 17:34pm]

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I have followed Prince from before controversy and by listening to Prince and those who followed him closely I did not find that most people thought he was gay at all - Until I found the Org.

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By paying attention to Prince's lyrics I always understood that he was inclusive but into women. That he was aware that there people who questioned his sexuality is no different from so many other performers before him. It does not mean MOST people, just some people. You don't need to re-write history to understand that Prince thought people were making shit up and for some it was in the hopes he was one of them to understand what Prince means when he said "I just can't believe all the things people say ..." when they question his race or sexuality or the lyrics of Uptown in context rather than selectively edited decades later:

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"It kinda turned me on when she looked at me
And said, "C'mere"
Now I don't usually talk to strangers
But she looked so pretty
What can I lose,
If I, uh, just give her a little ear?
"What's up little girl?"
"I ain't got time to play."
Baby didn't say too much
She said, "Are you gay?"
Kinda took me by suprise
I didn't know what to do
I just looked her in her eyes
And I said, "No, are u?"

[Edited 8/14/22 22:48pm]

LoveGalore said:

IanRG said:

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No, the thing is he NEVER said he was and I do not agree that "most" people believed he was - This was often just hopeful thinking by those who did.

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Prince appropriated nothing and everything, just like everybody - Not just artists, everybody.

.

Whilst there are genuine highly inappropriate and disrespectful cultural appropriations, most of the time when people accuse others of it, it is the accuser making shit up. Outside of the genuine accusations, it is the accusers who are at fault.

.

You cannot appropriate a separate culture if there is no separate and unified culture. There are myriad LGTQIA+ communities within cultures worldwide all very different because they "appropriate" different things from the culture they are part of. You cannot stereotype people and assume an artist has stolen your stereotype.

To be fair, I think the premise is clear: appropriating LGBT culture in the US. Not Pakistani LGBT culture, not British LGBT culture, not Zimbabwean LGBT culture. Just so we can rule out myriad possible cultures. LGBT culture in the US is not some forever-splintering multiverse. It is, in fact, a culture that runs concurrently with other broader cultures. Like any other culture in the entire world. And yeah, appropriating is a thing even when you don't intend it - like wearing a Native American headdress, which is cringey af if you aren't Native American. Do I personally care if Prince appropriated LGBT culture? No! Did he? Of course he did. He is one of the biggest "gay for pay" type pop artists around. That's probably why he made his obsession with women so very clear. Prince was all things, all the time. Until he wasn't. [Edited 8/14/22 21:00pm]

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The LGBT culture in the US is NOT a single culture anymore than it is in Australia, Pakistan, the UK or Zimbabwe. In the absense of a homogenous US LGBTQIA+ culture to appropriate, Prince is just performer with an obsession with women that was so very clear. That some of his audience is LGBTQIA+ meant that he included them - This is not appropriation. It is not like dressing up as Native American for the entertainment of people who not Native American.

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To be fair I never said appropriation does not exist unless it is intended - wearing Native American headdress was the very thing I thinking of as a genuine highly inapproriate and disrespectful appropriation.

IanRG said:

LoveGalore said:

IanRG said:

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The LGBT culture in the US is NOT a single culture anymore than it is in Australia, Pakistan, the UK or Zimbabwe. In the absense of a homogenous US LGBTQIA+ culture to appropriate, Prince is just performer with an obsession with women that was so very clear. That some of his audience is LGBTQIA+ meant that he included them - This is not appropriation. It is not like dressing up as Native American for the entertainment of people who not Native American.

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To be fair I never said appropriation does not exist unless it is intended - wearing Native American headdress was the very thing I thinking of as a genuine highly inapproriate and disrespectful appropriation.

Well, look at it like this: Prince wore high femme drag for most of his career. He he purposely agitated the gender binary by wearing high heels (damn near his whole life), wore highly feminine clothes from the cuts to the materials to the patterns, wore copious amounts of makeup over his entire face (and body glitter, and feminine colognes he called his perfume), purposely sang in registers typically reserved for women, said he preferred female singers so ostensibly attempted to emulate then much like a drag queen would, etc etc etc. I'm not the one saying people thought Prince was gay (though I heard that plenty growing up), But I am saying that if the LGBT fans are projecting and trying to align Prince with the LGBT diaspora, folks who loudly protest it as if Prince doesn't wear literally female hairstyles and panties seem to be projecting their own biases as well.

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And I know plenty of Gay men who do none of this and never have.

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Prince was short - hence the heals.

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He was a performer who dressed up - nothing new or different here.

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Many clothes worn by 80s Hair metal bands and 70s Glam rock bands etc also wore clothes that just before and today would be considered feminine - without anyone getting so easily confused.

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Make up is a given for people that are stage performers or on TV, especially musical performers.

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Falsetto is NOT reserved for woman - It is exclusively a male method of singing and was common back then outside of the Drag scene.

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Young Korean men on average spend more on perfume and make up than Young Korean women - Mostly to attract the young women and there certainly were times in Western societies where this was common.

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I am not saying Prince did not do what we know he did. I am saying it is not relevant and not appropriation because, as I said before "Prince appropriated nothing and everything, just like everybody - Not just artists, everybody." There is no loud protest from me except against the anti-PC purpose of the thread and its reliance on stereotyping of LGBTQIA+ and the assumption that most people thought Prince was gay when Prince said in his lyrics from early on that they are making shit up and he cannot believe what people say.

theres artists today like sophie for instance who were trans, but who got accused of appropriating a female identity (and name) etc

so yes if prince was new, he would get questioned

people would want to know if he was authentic, if he had a right to claim or use gay fashion or identity (and little richard was gay or bi, and prince took a lot of his mannerisms, so yes, its obvious that a certain level of gay mannerisms/influence would be there even if it prince didnt consciously adopt it - ive never heard this thing about prince styling himself after hairdressers).

prince just liked dressing up in womens clothes. does that mean he has to commit to the political causes of trans/lgbt people? idk. i mean i know there are lots of ppl who do think the answer to that question is yes, but the guy obv loved womens or feminine clothes, he wasnt doing it to appear trendy. he was doing it well into the 00s.i dont think he had any interest in lgbt issues really - in 'blanche', he sings the word 'fag' which clearly shows he had no real involvement or awareness of anything to do with those comminunities.

the real debate isnt whether prince would get questioned, he would, its whether it is or isnt ok to do what he did.

when he says 'no are you' after being asked if hes gay in uptown, i felt like that was possibly distancing himself from being called gay, but also kind of his defence for a heterosexual man to dress and act like he wants - he didnt stop behaving in a way that would get him called 'a fag' (which he often did) in the 80s.

later on when he became a JW, ofc he became a lot more conservative. and i dont think he wanted to be seen as anything other than what he was by then. which led to a lot more conservative music too. when you hear him at concerts for instance, he would often talk in a more typically 'masculine' voice - i think he regretted somewhat being seen or behaving in an effeminate way as he aged and wanted to show that he wasnt.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

theres artists today like sophie for instance who were trans, but who got accused of appropriating a female identity (and name) etc

so yes if prince was new, he would get questioned

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If the question is are there types of people like those who accused Sophie who would also accuse Prince then there obviously are.

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However, the OP concluded with "It seems like he got away with a lot in the 80's." This shows support for the type of person who would criticise any male artist who did not dress masculine enough or sing deep enough but is not gay as having got away with something they should not have been allowed to get away with.

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The responses here show why the thread received such a negative reception up front.

RJOrion said:

Of course not... most people believe/believed Prince was gay/bisexual himself.

No, they do not -- at least once they know about him.
With all of his public lovers and life, who has reported a gay relationship with him?
Frankly, from Bambi onwrd, I believe he was homophobic. He wanted Wendy so took her twin sister. Later urged Wendy and Lisa to renounce their identities, etc.

[Edited 8/15/22 7:36am]

laytonian said:

RJOrion said:

Of course not... most people believe/believed Prince was gay/bisexual himself.

No, they do not -- at least once they know about him.
With all of his public lovers and life, who has reported a gay relationship with him?
Frankly, from Bambi onwrd, I believe he was homophobic. He wanted Wendy so took her twin sister. Later urged Wendy and Lisa to renounce their identities, etc.

[Edited 8/15/22 7:36am]

I believe that it's Wendy that he wanted as well.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

later on when he became a JW, ofc he became a lot more conservative. and i dont think he wanted to be seen as anything other than what he was by then. which led to a lot more conservative music too. when you hear him at concerts for instance, he would often talk in a more typically 'masculine' voice - i think he regretted somewhat being seen or behaving in an effeminate way as he aged and wanted to show that he wasnt.

He told Chris Rock that back then he was "just being himself with a little bit of acting" and that it was "Rock'n'Roll". To me it sounds like he was doing whatever it took to get noticed and create a brand/aesthetic. It didn't hurt that he was also petite with pretty eyes so he exploited it the best that he could. I get that. What I'm not okay with is the fact that he showed little support to the gay community while being somewhat homophobic and would definitely get called out for that in these times.

Something else that I want to point out, I often here people say that he was non-binary but I disagree because he was very clear in his gender identity in the way he managed his relationships and how he sometimes viewed women for exemple the song 1+1+1 is 3), it's evident he enjoyed his male privilege.

laytonian said:

RJOrion said:

LoveGalore said:

I was just gonna say... It's pretty clear some folks here don't live in Minneapolis. I'd say a decent amount of old fans and people of a certain generation and above have some sort of story about knowing, meeting, or being adjacent to Prince and gay sex rumors are ON THE LIST of consistently mentioned topics. Not necessarily that Prince was and forever is gay and was a secret gay married to beards like some rigid folks here like to imply.

And let me take that a half-step further. Prince being gay rumors were like the ones about Oprah and Gayle. They persisted for decades. DECADES! Yet Oprah once said, "the way I've lived my life and ran my show, if I were gay why would I hide that part of my life?" The woman pulled a wagon of fan onto a stage having lost weight on a liquid diet. (Then went out that night for a burger with friends and immediately put on 5 lbs.) She's showed every part of her life, often in great detail, and - let's not forget - had a long term boyfriend for just as long. No beard is going to stay around that long, not even for Oprah.

If Prince were gay, and as much as he took a stand on any given topic he believed in, and knowing he pushed envelopes the way he did, and looked for the edge to see just how close he could get to it, and had Wendy and Lisa (who were IRL girlfriends) doing quasi-lesbian talk on songs like "Computer Blue," and who had already written songs like "Bambi," "Sexuality," and "Jack U Off," why the fuck would he NOT JUST BE OUT AND GAY?!

It's insane to think he hid something like that his whole life. Just ridiculous. The genius of all is that he was not only a Boomer with boomer sensibilities about money, work, success and relationships, but that he toyed with the ideas of sexuality for the sheer sake of it, to set off people who would believe he was gay or bisexual or otherwise on the sexual spectrum. "Would you be a happy boy or a girl?" "Have you ever wanted to play with someone so much you'd take anyone boy or girl?" The fun of it was that stupid people fell for it instead of seeing the bigger picture.

It's like that scene:

Fans checking out his lyrics: "Well, I was in the neighborhood..."
Prince: "And you got lost?"

Maybe their lives would be better with a new pair of shoes.