LoveGalore said:

Oh and I don't think Ian ever answered whether he dressed in lace panties for his woman. Or if his woman would like to see him get dicked down. Why is it gay men are always smarter about women than straight men?

Because women feel safer around gay men and are likely to share more with them, not having the fear of persecution or belittling for stating what they feel.

Hell, I've told women where their G-spot is or how to give a good blowjob and they've come back later and said, "FINALLY!" It's like that State Farm commercial, "We know a few things because we've seen a few things."

TrivialPursuit said:

LoveGalore said:

LoveGalore said:

I was literally just talking to a gay guy who was telling me about a time in college where he had to correct two women on where the human clitoris was.

And further to that, I think gay men understand what straight women like in men because we typically like the same shit. That's one reason, of a few, why there's so much "straight acting" gays.

But one thing I ain't ever heard from any of even the FREAKIEST of the DEAKIEST girls I know? "Oh it's like porn for me when I watch my man getting absolutely railed by his best friend."

What the fuck.

I've heard that before, too. I wonder if it's a woman seeing a man being "demoted," by being the receiver, the way men think are less than because they are receivers, rather than givers. We're taught men are less than if they get fucked, rather than do the fucking. So by default, women are seen as less than before they're usable.

A woman probably gets off on that because the man is now on her level, that societal "less than" level. "Who's the bitch now?!" Plus, men are strong blah blah, so to see a man take a dick in the butt and struggle between pleasure and pain, that'd just about get anyone off!

TrivialPursuit said:

LoveGalore said:

I was literally just talking to a gay guy who was telling me about a time in college where he had to correct two women on where the human clitoris was.

And further to that, I think gay men understand what straight women like in men because we typically like the same shit. That's one reason, of a few, why there's so much "straight acting" gays.

But one thing I ain't ever heard from any of even the FREAKIEST of the DEAKIEST girls I know? "Oh it's like porn for me when I watch my man getting absolutely railed by his best friend."

What the fuck.

I've heard that before, too. I wonder if it's a woman seeing a man being "demoted," by being the receiver, the way men think are less than because they are receivers, rather than givers. We're taught men are less than if they get fucked, rather than do the fucking. So by default, women are seen as less than before they're usable.

A woman probably gets off on that because the man is now on her level, that societal "less than" level. "Who's the bitch now?!" Plus, men are strong blah blah, so to see a man take a dick in the butt and struggle between pleasure and pain, that'd just about get anyone off!

This is an entire new conversation but this made me think of something (not gay related but more in terms of control and power). Prince seemed like the one who always wanted to be in control even during sex so I found the original script of PR where he tries to rape Vanity and she finds a way to humiliate him and make him lose control of himself sexually, very interesting especially if Prince had a hand in writing this particular scene.

prince understood gender enough to be able to flip those roles in his music (a man singing about do me baby? that was really not the R&B norm).

whether that was something he actually did in his own life, i dont know.

i think he did have a degree of vagina envy (eg IIWYG, dressing in girls clothes, etc). but that was just part of him. he also enjoyed being a man and what that bestowed on him and clearly wasnt going to give that up or comment on that. he wasnt really interested in gender politics per se, not in the taking it to the streets (or congress) sense, but anything he saw as a chance to upend societys expectations, he was into it.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

This is an entire new conversation but this made me think of something (not gay related but more in terms of control and power). Prince seemed like the one who always wanted to be in control even during sex

Well, that's not necessarily true. Purple Rain aside, Prince almost always put himself in the submissive position. He was always asking for it, begging for it. It wasn't "I want to fuck you," it was "do me, baby, like you've never done before." In "Automatic," he was literally being tortured, and he was under her control. Whatever she wanted, it was just "automatic" in him to do it. He was going to jack her off, give her head, etc. The examples are endless.

Sure he had swagger and desire and was the aggressor at times, but he was never rapey in his songs (except those one or two examples we know about). He wanted the girl to make a move, but once he was in there, he knew what he was doin'.

LoveGalore said:

Oh and I don't think Ian ever answered whether he dressed in lace panties for his woman. Or if his woman would like to see him get dicked down.

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You really don't know when to let things go - And you simply cannot stop misrepresenting people.

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Re Prince wearing feminine clothes I absolutely answered you repeatedly. You are lying. I pointed out repeatedly that what Prince wore was tame compared to what straight men wore in Glam Rock before Prince - I even pointed you to one of the most successful mainstream Top 40 bands in Australia in the 1970s being Skyhooks. I pointed out repeatedly that most gay men at the time would fail your gay checklist because they did not dress like Prince and being gay is not determined by your clothes anyway.

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Your pathetic attempt to pretend that you asked a question that you did not ask is so easily shown up by me quoting the actual question you asked. This was "Say, Ian. Ever met a woman who wanted you to dress in a manner like Prince? If so, why didn't you? If not, I wonder why that is." I am always amazed at the sheer gullibility of people in social media discussions who think that people will not simply look back at what was actually said in the thread. In fact, when you look back, you will see that I answered you with.
.

"Do you really think that there are not women who like their man to dress like an artist they are attracted to? (And I have no intention of discussing my sex life with you ever!) Do you really think there were no women who thought Prince was sexy and it was only gay men? Do you really think that Prince took Kirk's dick on stage? Or even that there was even a single person in the audience stupid enough to think this? You need to look outside of your fantasy world and wishful thinking and get it together. Your need to hang on to a dream when you know it was never true is only doing you harm."

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Your answer to this response failed to answer these questions and it only said "You're my whatever-i-feel-like-calling-you. Like, "son" for starters."

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You really need to think and get your facts straight before you post - it just makes you look bad.

JorisE73 said:

But anyway, I don't think Prince would have been accused of appropriating Funkfreak and hippy glam rock styles. He was just heavily inspired by them Especially the Parliament-Funkadelic style of freakyness of (straight) men running around in close to nothing.

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And that is the whole point - Prince was just insprired by various people and trends. He was not trying to look like a homosexual, a hippy, a glam rocker or a member of Funkadelic. He was not appropriating anything in any way different from all the performers over time that are inspired by others. Just think how many bands have been inspired by the Beatles and how many bands and performers inspired the Beatles - even after the Beatles were already famous (eg the Beatles being inspired by psychedlia.) Appropriation today means more than just borrowed - it means taken from a culture without permission and inappropriately used by people not of that culture. This does not describe Prince wearing feminine based clothes or some of his stage antics.

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I think it is cute how obsessed some are with the lie that Gay men created Prince and this scares straight people. It is such a trite argument.

LoveGalore said:

JorisE73 said:

But anyway, I don't think Prince would have been accused of appropriating Funkfreak and hippy glam rock styles. He was just heavily inspired by them Especially the Parliament-Funkadelic style of freakyness of (straight) men running around in close to nothing.

Yeah, if you kick PF up like 20 notches, sure. Prince is not an analog to any one other rock star and has elevated the rockstar aesthetic by borrowing things from glam rock, funk rock, blues rock, hip hop, black culture, Latino and Hispanic cultures, Asian cultures, and GAY CULTURE. The only thing this thread is doing is giving anxiety to all the fragile heterosexuals who think that admitting they like something a little gay is gonna be the gateway drug to THEM being fucked on stage by Kirky J.

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Progress at last - It took you long enough.

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However, as ever, you get it wrong at the end.

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Each of the cultural inspirations you mention have sets of prevailing and common ideas, customs, traditions and social behaviours of a particular and separate people or society except one. If the style is as transient as this season's fashion and the customs for most are largely inseparable from virtually all the customs that most of their neighbours, friends outside their group, and family members or their social behaviours (outside of their sexual relationships) are consistent with most people around them at the time, then it is at best a sub-culture, but most likely just a community within the general culture.

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That you want to imagine that anyone who could disagree with is just a fragile heterosexual says more about you than anyone else. Most people are comfortable with their own sexuality and they don't feel threatened by someone else having a different sexuality - nor are they scared that a simulated stage antic could turn them.

[Edited 8/21/22 13:41pm]

IanRG said:

LoveGalore said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

prince understood gender enough to be able to flip those roles in his music (a man singing about do me baby? that was really not the R&B norm).

whether that was something he actually did in his own life, i dont know.

i think he did have a degree of vagina envy (eg IIWYG, dressing in girls clothes, etc). but that was just part of him. he also enjoyed being a man and what that bestowed on him and clearly wasnt going to give that up or comment on that. he wasnt really interested in gender politics per se, not in the taking it to the streets (or congress) sense, but anything he saw as a chance to upend societys expectations, he was into it.

And it just so happens that, at the time, looking queer was a giant middle finger to all corners of society. And the concept of his woman doing and fucking him and him jacking her off (how?) is clearly rooted in sexuality bending imagery. Prince knew people thought he looked gay despite Ian suggesting he didn't think that at all. He clearly spoke on it his entire career. He clearly knew exactly what he was doing by starting an album with "why does it matter to you that I'm gay?" and ending it with "let me jack you off, lady." By "fucking him" I am referencing the lyric, "You can fuck me, baby, and I'll fuck you." Sorry, but that is clearly referencing more than just have sex twice in a row and divvy up who gets to claim which session or something administrative like Ian would suggest. [Edited 8/20/22 13:20pm]

.

You need to get over your fear of what I said. No one is threatening your sexuality by pointing out that Prince is not gay (you've already agree with this) or gayish and that he got his style from many different sources (you just agreed with this). It does not matter if Prince was flirting with a woman in Uptown and not making some deep message about the treatment of gay men at the time.

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That you cannot handle simple processes does not mean I handle things "administratively". Understanding things as they are written and not how you want to believe it in your fantasy world would have prevented you quoting Prince as actually saying "why does it matter to you that I'm gay?" when you know he did not say that. This is either a misrepresentation or a misunderstanding. Despite you quoting him, you know he would not say that quote because he is not gay.

.

PS You need to get out more. Whilst Jack U off is mostly in reference to a man, it can also be used in reference to masturbating a woman, just less frequently. You need to understand that Prince often twisted words for shock value and not as an invitation to you. However when you look at the whole of the words in the song "Jack U Off" or in IWYGF, you will see that he specifically meant he would masturbate a woman and that he is sorry that as a boyfriend he should have been more like his girlfriend's BFF.

.

PPS You once again misrepresent what I said (Why do you fear my words so much that you have to misrepresent them?). I have said repeatedly to you that I know that there were some people who thought he looked gay, but that he did not dress to look gay, but instead to attract women (you know this to be true). His dress was not gay, it is was just a progression from the Glam rock, Funkadelic, hippy and androgeny that preceded it. Most Gay men in Minneapolis in the early 1980s did not dress like Prince and they woud fail your gay checklist.

[Edited 8/20/22 16:52pm]

LoveGalore said:

IanRG said:

.

You really don't know when to let things go - And you simply cannot stop misrepresenting people.

.

Re Prince wearing feminine clothes I absolutely answered you repeatedly. You are lying. I pointed out repeatedly that what Prince wore was tame compared to what straight men wore in Glam Rock before Prince - I even pointed you to one of the most successful mainstream Top 40 bands in Australia in the 1970s being Skyhooks. I pointed out repeatedly that most gay men at the time would fail your gay checklist because they did not dress like Prince and being gay is not determined by your clothes anyway.

.

Your pathetic attempt to pretend that you asked a question that you did not ask is so easily shown up by me quoting the actual question you asked. This was "Say, Ian. Ever met a woman who wanted you to dress in a manner like Prince? If so, why didn't you? If not, I wonder why that is." I am always amazed at the sheer gullibility of people in social media discussions who think that people will not simply look back at what was actually said in the thread. In fact, when you look back, you will see that I answered you with.
.

"Do you really think that there are not women who like their man to dress like an artist they are attracted to? (And I have no intention of discussing my sex life with you ever!) Do you really think there were no women who thought Prince was sexy and it was only gay men? Do you really think that Prince took Kirk's dick on stage? Or even that there was even a single person in the audience stupid enough to think this? You need to look outside of your fantasy world and wishful thinking and get it together. Your need to hang on to a dream when you know it was never true is only doing you harm."

.

Your answer to this response failed to answer these questions and it only said "You're my whatever-i-feel-like-calling-you. Like, "son" for starters."

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You really need to think and get your facts straight before you post - it just makes you look bad.

Just answer the question - have you or have you not worn lace panties to entice your woman? Please discuss this outstanding item.

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Thank you for confirming that you lied and made up things you never asked and I never said. I understand that you did this by your usual way of just ignoring that you have been weighed, measured and found wanting.

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I have no intention of discussing my sex life with you ever. Your ability to twist what I said and lie about it shows that you have no integrity and, anyway, this is a public forum, you are not a person that I am having any sexual relations with and it is creepy that you are obsessed with asking this - not because of your sexuality, just because of how you have misrepresented things here.

IanRG said:

LoveGalore said:

IanRG said:

.

Thank you for confirming that you lied and made up things you never asked and I never said. I understand that you did this by your usual way of just ignoring that you have been weighed, measured and found wanting.

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I have no intention of discussing my sex life with you ever. Your ability to twist what I said and lie about it shows that you have no integrity and, anyway, this is a public forum, you are not a person that I am having any sexual relations with and it is creepy that you are obsessed with asking this - not because of your sexuality, just because of how you have misrepresented things here.

Oh? What makes it creepy? I'd love to know.

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Look in the mirror

IanRG said:

LoveGalore said:

IanRG said:

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Look in the mirror

They were red, weren't they?

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I am not going to discuss your sex life either and I have no idea where you were looking.

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I know it is scary when a heterosexual does not fall for your stereotype arguments and gameplay, but all you need to is be comfortable with your sexuality, and stop worrying about a person from another country who is so very unlikely to ever meet you.

[Edited 8/20/22 18:53pm]

IanRG said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

LoveGalore said:

IanRG said:

.

I am not going to discuss your sex life either and I have no idea where you were looking.

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I know it is scary when a heterosexual does not fall for your stereotype arguments and gameplay, but all you need to is be comfortable with your sexuality, and stop worrying about a person from another country who is so very unlikely to ever meet you.

[Edited 8/20/22 18:53pm]

Fair dinkum. You're not the only presumptuous and delusional Aussie I've ever met, but you do have that same energy. Tastes like home.

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More stereotyping - People in Australia almost never say "fair dinkum" anymore unless they being deliberately corny.

.

And yet it is only you who has been found out making up assumptions and lies.

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Have you found where Prince said "why does it matter to you that I'm gay?" It is not me presuming anything.

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To keep this on the tipic, not your fears: Have you found something that is a sustained cultural difference between Gay men in Minneapolis in 1980 until 2016 that heterosexual men in the same place and time or Glam Rockers, hippies or people following angrogenous fashions did not do but Prince did? Have you found people in Minneapolis in 1980 to 84 that dressed like Prince (other than when copying Prince)?

IanRG said:

LoveGalore said:

IanRG said:

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More stereotyping - People in Australia almost never say "fair dinkum" anymore unless they being deliberately corny.

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And yet it is only you who has been found out making up assumptions and lies.

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Have you found where Prince said "why does it matter to you that I'm gay?" It is not me presuming anything.

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To keep this on the topic, not your fears: Have you found something that is a sustained cultural difference between Gay men in Minneapolis in 1980 until 2016 that heterosexual men in the same place and time or Glam Rockers, hippies or people following androgynous fashions did not do but Prince did? Have you found people in Minneapolis in 1980 to 84 that dressed like Prince (other than when copying Prince)?

No shit it's an outdated phrase, you humorless toad. Now I know you never wore the lace panties because you honestly are boring and boorish. And no, you goofball, nobody anywhere dressed in Edwardian ruffles and brocade except the Paisley camp.

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Just more empty personal attacks without being able to demonstrate you self claimed superiority - You really should not be so scared and defensive.

.

You don't know anything about me. All you know is:

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1 How to make false assumptions. I mean really, you can tell what underwear a person has on by their response to you showing that you know so little about another country (no one is buying that you knew it was an outdated term), and

.

2 That you cannot point to a single thing that was common to how early 1980s Minnesota Gay men acted and dressed and Prince that was not something Prince got from hippies, Glam rockers, psychedelia, Funkadelic or people following androgynous fashions that Prince would have seen in his formative years. Ruffles and paisley patterns were not from Gay Minnesota men but from people of all sexualities and genders in Prince's formative years.

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Some friendly advice - No one is going to think you are just seeking to be funny after all the things you have called me just to avoid answering my comments. The post you presumed I would think was meant as lighthearted and funny was when you said "You're not the only presumptuous and delusional Aussie I've ever met, but you do have that same energy."

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I know it is scary when a heterosexual does not fall for your stereotype arguments and gameplay, but all you need to is be comfortable with your sexuality, and stop worrying about a person from another country who is so very unlikely to ever meet you. Please do not keep on making shit up or assumptions about me. Your obsession with attacking anyone who disagrees with has killed the thread, but I will address the lies and assumptions you make up about me in your desperation.

donnadiavolo said:

I haven’t read through this thread but I assume Prince always happened to be more in touch with his feminine side, so where else would he turn to to engage with his bias? Women & some LGBTQI+ influences. I can imagine it’d be complicated when you don’t quite fit into a “category”.

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You can add the things that he grew up with in his formative years - Hippies, Glam rockers, psychedelia, Parliament/Funkadelic or people following androgynous fashions in the 1970s - but his look was to never to be gay or seen as gay. Prince's 1980s clothes were quite a tame version of what many Glam Rockers etc wore in the 1970s.

IanRG said:

JorisE73 said:

Prog5000 said:

Yeah, probably. But only by the Twitter brigade who seek out and stir up controversy.

Twitter is not a real place, full of fake people and moronic A.I.s

We agree then.

[Edited 8/21/22 22:01pm]

It was about being provocative and the fashion. Queerness had a danger, streetness, that was associated as edgy but not really dangerous. The idea of gender bending was to be artistic, and make a statement, but like most statements in those days, they weren't entirely thought out.

The audiences didn't really know who was Gay. Rock Hudson wasn't even out. So yeah, Prince was questioned, but also kinda not.

Really though, these are the types of questions nobody asked him. The women he dated are the only ones who can answer now, and then it becomes why they were banging a straight man in heels without them question him borrowing their clothes.

You can't then apply that context to 2022 and decide how approprate it is.

If you dressed like Prince today, people wouldn't see it as a masculine man in lace, they would make Trans, and NB associations he never intended. The other thing is ALL male artists look back on shit they wore then, and the Gay imagery they played with, and they don't even know why they did that. It was the style. It was also not long after Gay liberation even became a thing, the idea you could be Gay or fluid and it didn't mean you were a pervert who would be institutionalized was still new. You had people like Scorsese making movies that openly referenced Kenneth Anger homoerotic movies too, it was in all art. Nobody worreid if he was Gay, it became okay to reference Gay artists, as it should, without being Gay by associate. Prince used the Queerness, the dressing like a pansy, and asking people to look at his ass in lace, so that's why we're discussing it now.

My point is, this wasn't all Prince, he just pushed the culture along and did it best. Maybe we aren't where we are in 2022 if he didn't.

lavendardrummachine said:

It was about being provocative and the fashion. Queerness had a danger, streetness, that was associated as edgy but not really dangerous. The idea of gender bending was to be artistic, and make a statement, but like most statements in those days, they weren't entirely thought out.

The audiences didn't really know who was Gay. Rock Hudson wasn't even out. So yeah, Prince was questioned, but also kinda not.

Really though, these are the types of questions nobody asked him. The women he dated are the only ones who can answer now, and then it becomes why they were banging a straight man in heels without them question him borrowing their clothes.

You can't then apply that context to 2022 and decide how approprate it is.

If you dressed like Prince today, people wouldn't see it as a masculine man in lace, they would make Trans, and NB associations he never intended. The other thing is ALL male artists look back on shit they wore then, and the Gay imagery they played with, and they don't even know why they did that. It was the style. It was also not long after Gay liberation even became a thing, the idea you could be Gay or fluid and it didn't mean you were a pervert who would be institutionalized was still new. You had people like Scorsese making movies that openly referenced Kenneth Anger homoerotic movies too, it was in all art. Nobody worreid if he was Gay, it became okay to reference Gay artists, as it should, without being Gay by associate. Prince used the Queerness, the dressing like a pansy, and asking people to look at his ass in lace, so that's why we're discussing it now.

My point is, this wasn't all Prince, he just pushed the culture along and did it best. Maybe we aren't where we are in 2022 if he didn't.

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The only problem with this response is the word "Queerness". This is not a word that ever was used in the 70s, or early 80s to describe psychedelia, Parliament/Funkadelic, glam rockers or Prince. It is a later activist word exclusively for the LGBTQIA+ communities (now rejected in favour of this or similar anacronyms), not artistic performers who were for the most part not of these communities:

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The Free Dictionary Queer and Queerness Usage Note: A reclaimed word is a word that was formerly used solely as a slur but that has been semantically overturned by members of the maligned group, who use it as a term of defiant pride. Queer is an example of a word undergoing this process. For decades queer was used as a derogatory adjective for gays and lesbians, but in the 1980s the term began to be used by gay and lesbian activists as a term of self-identification. Eventually, it came to be used as an umbrella term that included gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender people. Nevertheless, a sizable percentage of people to whom this term might apply still hold queer to be a hateful insult, and its use by heterosexuals is often considered offensive. Similarly, other reclaimed words are usually offensive to the in-group when used by outsiders, so caution must be taken with their use when one is not a member of the group.

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Prince's use of androgynous clothing styles was tame compared to his predecessors - perhaps the difference is most people here are from the USA. So much of Glam rock et al was not. You had UK artists like T.Rex, Sweet, Slade, Roxy Music, Queen and Australian artists like Skyhooks etc. Perhaps this is all about in the US Prince's clothes had much more shock value than elsewhere and in this way, Prince pushed the US culture along more than other cultures but as a catch-up?