rednblue said:

RighteousOne said:

RJOrion said:

muleFunk said:

RighteousOne said:

muleFunk said:

No pre-modern anything but it's a good dose of post modern revisionist history going on after Prince died. All coming from the same people.

It was suspect when PR Deluxe was released especially when rumors were flying about WB paying certain Revolution members to promote the album. Now SOTT Deluxe has turned into the same tripe.

As for W&L I love THEIR music. I have every album they released.

BUT, Prince is one of the all time great musicians they didn't make him and his music kept flowing after they were gone. They now reside as the queens of TV jingles.

“The queens of TV jingles”. There you go again! You can’t help it, can you?

How many Top 40 hits?
How many Top 10 hits?

How many Number 1 Albums?

How many Number 1 songs?

Did they sell concerts out in minutes?

Did their box set of 33 year old singles sell out in minutes?

The body of work will last long after they gone and what was their body of work?

An Emmy for Nurse Jackie.

LoveGalore said:

LoveGalore said:

rednblue said:

Bottom line is I think we fans almost never know the truth about any of these sorts of claims, whether they are/were made by Prince or anyone else in the purple world.

We could ask that nobody describe any collaborations or contributions to another person's work after he or she passes away. That isn't my wish, but I understand it may be what some people prefer.

Beyond that, some statements were made before P passed on, and that fact doesn't serve to make them sit well with many people.

Surely most people with objections are making their own educated (based on judgments about what constitues a "straw," feelings about personality characteristics, etc.) guesses...but in most cases others could make an educated guess that runs the opposite way and disagrees with the objections.

In the end, most all of the fan objections are just that. Guesses.

[Edited 9/20/20 8:49am]

Oh, absolutely. Totally guesses. What's more irritating to me even than whatever comes out of the Revolution and Susan's mouthes, is when fans on the org can't help but stop and admonish fellow fans for their guesses. Either have the courage to start a discussion on why a person believes a thing or simply leave it alone. But the org can't help but say "you're wrong and also you're a piece of shit, so handle that."

Yes, and some of the Org comments come across as stating for the 100th time (exaggerating here, plus I know I'm guilty of repeating some of my own thoughts on purple personality dynamics way too often)...they come across as I can't stand this associate's personality, therefore some of their behavior strikes me as piece of shit behavior, and therefore their statements are wrong and false.

Maybe instead of saying we've heard the joke about someone thinking they gave birth to the world so many times before, maybe we should say we're sorry the personality triggers you.

Honestly, I personally think there's an important balance when coming off as loud and brash, and eager to insert into lives of others. I appreciate some balancing quiet and humility.

Yet Prince himself had a very loud, brash side to him. He had a side that overreached into people's lives if one wants to believe the weight of numerous stories about disregard for people having an existence beyond the purple world. Some of his own statements implied that people shouldn't be disregarded in that way. They implied that for a person to behave that way constituted hubris and disrespect for greater forces in the universe.

At the same time, goodness knows everyone got huge gifts from the way the genius Prince drove not only himself, but also those who supported his work, so hard.

One thing all this shows is that tendency to loudness, brashness and overreach into people's lives doesn't preclude talent or ability to make good music.

At least one person who had this as one of his many "sides" was also a stunningly brilliant musician. A genius. I think one thing on which almost all here would agree is that P's artistic talents dwarfed those of nearly all that worked with him.

[Edited 9/20/20 10:19am]

RighteousOne said:

LoveGalore said:

Did you not understand the distinction between "exgirlfriends" and "ex-employees"? Do you not comprehend that Eric Leeds falls under the category of "ex-employees"? Do you see Candy Dulfer, Cassandra Oneal, 3rd Eye Girl, Kat Dyson, Rhonda Smith, Robin Power, the Twins, Bria Valente, Tamar Davis, Liv Warfield, Elisa Dease, Shelby, Cat, Jill, Diamond, Pearl, Carmen Electra, Mayte, Nona Gaye, Kim Basinger, Ingrid Chavez, Brenda, Susan Moonsie, Gayle Chapman, or any other women out here clutching at straws like Wendy, Lisa, and Susan Rogers? Really? Where? This isn't about women despite you wanting to deflate the argument purely on that basis. We can talk all damn day about people grabbing for writing credits at the expense of others when it comes to those 3. All day. Look how people completely forgot about Jill during the PR deluxe release and she flipped her shit to get proper acknowledgement when standing next to W&L. This ain't about their gender. It's about them. Susan Rogers believes herself to be an expert on Prince and his motivations despite only spending, what, 4 years around him? Same with the other two? This man had a career that spanned 10 times that. [Edited 9/20/20 8:19am]

Making out a list of the women Prince has worked with doesn’t constitute an argument. I’m not talking about HIS misogyny. I’m talking about YOURS... and something else...perhaps better left unsaid.

And I'm talking about your delusion. What now?

muleFunk said:

RighteousOne said:

muleFunk said:

How many Top 40 hits?
How many Top 10 hits?

How many Number 1 Albums?

How many Number 1 songs?

Did they sell concerts out in minutes?

Did their box set of 33 year old singles sell out in minutes?

The body of work will last long after they gone and what was their body of work?

An Emmy for Nurse Jackie.

This is serious not because I seek to elevate W&L but because you need to denigrate W&L. Why is this? Further, why do you want to compare their achievements when no one is asking you to? Have they hurt you in some way? You don’t like their kind? It’s just so weird.

It's not denigrating them.

If they wrote all of these hits for Prince then why have they not had any for themselves or other people like Jam and Lewis?

We can argue about whether what W&L say is true, but we all agree that they come across as very bitter. The Current making the decision to have bitter ex-bandmembers who were fired from the project to then be the spokepeople for the project for four whole episodes is a shame. Keeping it 100%, the Current botched this beyond repair. I look forward to the music next Friday.

muleFunk said:

donnyenglish said:

muleFunk said:

ForceofNature said:

muleFunk said:

It's not denigrating them.

If they wrote all of these hits for Prince then why have they not had any for themselves or other people like Jam and Lewis?

You keep using faulty logic and miss the point of what they talk about in terms of their contributions. This won't go anywhere if you keep asking loaded questions bassd on a faulty premise

The BODY of WORK is not faulty logic.

We take opinion and bias out by looking at the WORK.

So tell me what makes them great again ?

One and a half hours in Purple Rain?

Theme song for Nurse Jackie???

[Edited 9/20/20 10:57am]

muleFunk said:

muleFunk said:

ForceofNature said:

muleFunk said: You keep using faulty logic and miss the point of what they talk about in terms of their contributions. This won't go anywhere if you keep asking loaded questions bassd on a faulty premise

The BODY of WORK is not faulty logic.

We take opinion and bias out by looking at the WORK.

So tell me what makes them great again ?

One and a half hours in Purple Rain?

Theme song for Nurse Jackie???

[Edited 9/20/20 10:57am]

Wendy and Lisa should've have the dominated the late 80s and early 90s which was fertile gound for women pop and rock singer/songwriters who thought outside the box like Juliana Hatfield, Liz Phair, Veruca Salt, Alanis Morrisette, Ani Defranco, Tori Amos, Fiona Apple, Courtney Love, PJ Harvey, and Bjork just to name a few. Sheryl Crow's Every Day is a Winding Road was a hit song that would've been right in Wendy and Lisa's wheelhouse. So no one can make the excuse that their music is too out there for pop audiences.

ForceofNature said:

muleFunk said:

The BODY of WORK is not faulty logic.

We take opinion and bias out by looking at the WORK.

So tell me what makes them great again ?

One and a half hours in Purple Rain?

Theme song for Nurse Jackie???

[Edited 9/20/20 10:57am]

They could have written nothing but Trout Mask Replica sounding songs after leaving the Revution but it still won't change the fact that they did contribute to many things in the Revolution, no? Ultimately there is nothing Wendy and Lisa are saying in any of these podcasts that are false, or even simply out of line or disrespectful. As a musician myself, I clearly just hear what is a crazy and turbulent music making whirlwind of creativity for Prince who was genius at both delegating musicians to contribute to his work, and genius at taking kernels and cornerstone song ideas from people like W&L who while in the band provided some great musical ideas that post-collaboration ended up as part of the album canon we love so much. [Edited 9/20/20 12:19pm]

It's no doubt that they contributed to Prince's work and if you were around in that era you know the circustances that led to the epic Sign O the Times album. Where the disrespect comes in is there has been 4 episodes about THEM and Susannah that whole story could have been told in one and a half episodes.

Everything else you say I agree.

donnyenglish said:

We can argue about whether what W&L say is true, but we all agree that they come across as very bitter. The Current making the decision to have bitter ex-bandmembers who were fired from the project to then be the spokepeople for the project for four whole episodes is a shame. Keeping it 100%, the Current botched this beyond repair. I look forward to the music next Friday.

But... they don't sound bitter.

muleFunk said:

ForceofNature said:

muleFunk said: They could have written nothing but Trout Mask Replica sounding songs after leaving the Revution but it still won't change the fact that they did contribute to many things in the Revolution, no? Ultimately there is nothing Wendy and Lisa are saying in any of these podcasts that are false, or even simply out of line or disrespectful. As a musician myself, I clearly just hear what is a crazy and turbulent music making whirlwind of creativity for Prince who was genius at both delegating musicians to contribute to his work, and genius at taking kernels and cornerstone song ideas from people like W&L who while in the band provided some great musical ideas that post-collaboration ended up as part of the album canon we love so much. [Edited 9/20/20 12:19pm]

It's no doubt that they contributed to Prince's work and if you were around in that era you know the circustances that led to the epic Sign O the Times album. Where the disrespect comes in is there has been 4 episodes about THEM and Susannah that whole story could have been told in one and a half episodes.

Everything else you say I agree.

I also hope they talk about everything surrounding the album and the live concert recording that ended up becoming the SOTT movie. From the sounds of the preview for next episode they will get into Prince's unhappiness with the rejection of Crystal Ball so I think forward motion may be had in episode 5



I will say, I do think that Susannah's story could have been told in one of the previous podcasts as opposed to so much time in one whole previous episode, and stuff like that. I enjoy it all, but I see your point with that - even if for me it is more about just material orginization rather than disrespect but I get what you mean.


I just felt that in this thread so far, there are a few people (not anyone specifically) who got a bit wonky in regards to complaining about W&L seemingly having more to do with the material than Prince pointing at them and going "play this"

[Edited 9/20/20 12:38pm]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

LoveGalore said:

RighteousOne said:

Dude, you reveal too much about yourself, yet again. Why take aim at women, and not people like Eric Leeds, who was there too, and corroborate? You gotta stop this now. You’re a guy typing on your computer a million miles in time and space from any of these events. Recognize that you have no clue what really happened. Dial into some humility. [Edited 9/20/20 8:06am]

Did you not understand the distinction between "exgirlfriends" and "ex-employees"? Do you not comprehend that Eric Leeds falls under the category of "ex-employees"? Do you see Candy Dulfer, Cassandra Oneal, 3rd Eye Girl, Kat Dyson, Rhonda Smith, Robin Power, the Twins, Bria Valente, Tamar Davis, Liv Warfield, Elisa Dease, Shelby, Cat, Jill, Diamond, Pearl, Carmen Electra, Mayte, Nona Gaye, Kim Basinger, Ingrid Chavez, Brenda, Susan Moonsie, Gayle Chapman, or any other women out here clutching at straws like Wendy, Lisa, and Susan Rogers? Really? Where? This isn't about women despite you wanting to deflate the argument purely on that basis. We can talk all damn day about people grabbing for writing credits at the expense of others when it comes to those 3. All day. Look how people completely forgot about Jill during the PR deluxe release and she flipped her shit to get proper acknowledgement when standing next to W&L. This ain't about their gender. It's about them. Susan Rogers believes herself to be an expert on Prince and his motivations despite only spending, what, 4 years around him? Same with the other two? This man had a career that spanned 10 times that. [Edited 9/20/20 8:19am]

This is an insanely stupid argument. The obvious answer here is that Susan Rogers, Wendy and Lisa had a personal/professional and musical relationship to Prince that was unique, and that other folks like gayle Chapman and Kim basinger had different relationships to him.

Wendy and Lisa and Susan aren't grasping at straws. They are accurately portraying what they remember. I think W&L don't hype their contributions enough, actually. Fuck the misogyny of certain Prince 'fans'. It's really unconscionable.

donnyenglish said:

We can argue about whether what W&L say is true, but we all agree that they come across as very bitter. The Current making the decision to have bitter ex-bandmembers who were fired from the project to then be the spokepeople for the project for four whole episodes is a shame. Keeping it 100%, the Current botched this beyond repair. I look forward to the music next Friday.

I don't think that at all. Mark Brown has tons more shit to talk about Prince. No-one goes after him (and I certainly don't think anyone should, he's great!).

[Edited 9/20/20 14:59pm]

LoveGalore said:

ForceofNature said:

Wendy and Lisa said they wrote every single bit of the song and all Prince did was sing on it and make a couple of suggestions? I never got anything from Eric's words or W&L's words on this podcast that gave me the impression that they did anything but present Prince with the key defining characteriscs of the song that Prince did his Prince thing with to make this amazing tune - just like he did with quitea few of their ideas in the time they were in the band

[Edited 9/17/20 22:34pm]

"Written by Wendy and Lisa" comes straight from the podcast. Not written with them. Andrea is a quite capable writer so I don't think she simply neglected to mention the "nuance" that Prince wrote the song too.

So ask Andrea where she got this info, we have no evidence that W&L said they wrote the song.

JudasLChrist said:

jaawwnn said:

Fans who believe they know what went down re: artistic contributions are all choosing to believe someone in the purple world...be it through spoken or otherwise issued (e.g. album credits) claims of who did what.

Untruths about due credit could come from anyone, including Prince himself.

What if there was a disclaimer at the top of every thread? A disclaimer saying it's understood that fans may well dispute what was said by people who were there? What if it's left at that, and a separate "credibility" thread could be created to discuss who "seems" more likely to lie?

What does it serve to have every thread touching on "credit" claims by Prince or others potentially include 100's of statements of the following:

"I bet these associates were especially capable of deception."
"I bet Prince was especially capable of deception."



Credit for artistic work is a worthy topic. But shouldn't this stuff go elsewhere, most especially the stuff nonspecific to the work at hand? Because otherwise, tons of threads could be filled with tons of personal guesses of every single Orger who wants to get out nonspecific thoughts and feelings.

these undying discussions are the true legacy of Prince. He spread so many conflicting stories about his life, his music, his opinions... he actively tried to muddy the water.

.

So the only way to know what actually happened is to listen to others that were around at the time, unfortunately. Of course, they may have their own agendas or are simply trying to honor Prince by further muddying things.

.

This creates ample opportunity for lots of interpretations and different teams. I don't think there's enough Prince followers anymore, but this is a great way to start a religion. There have been a few different groups that created "a" jesus. And there were a few centuries that went over it before one version of his origin story was more or less standardized.

.

So... in 2321 (or thereabout) I am sure there will be getting together of the leaders of the church of Prince where they will decide what Prince's life was and who contributed what. And there will still be heretics in Constantinopel.

mediumdry said:

these undying discussions are the true legacy of Prince. He spread so many conflicting stories about his life, his music, his opinions... he actively tried to muddy the water.

.

So the only way to know what actually happened is to listen to others that were around at the time, unfortunately. Of course, they may have their own agendas or are simply trying to honor Prince by further muddying things.

.

This creates ample opportunity for lots of interpretations and different teams. I don't think there's enough Prince followers anymore, but this is a great way to start a religion. There have been a few different groups that created "a" jesus. And there were a few centuries that went over it before one version of his origin story was more or less standardized.

.

So... in 2321 (or thereabout) I am sure there will be getting together of the leaders of the church of Prince where they will decide what Prince's life was and who contributed what. And there will still be heretics in Constantinopel.

Should be well standardized by 3121. But even then, there will be heretics. Thank goodness! Every world needs its heretics.