PennyPurple said:

peggyon said:

I don't think so, patient-doctor confidentiality

Even in court cases?

We will have to ask our org. lawyer ISaidLifeisjustagame. My thoughts, though are that I don't think this case will go to a jury (too much risk). Don't know if cases settled out of court allow documents to be read by the public. I think they will try to protect Prince...redacting

[Edited 8/29/18 19:08pm]

peggyon said:

PennyPurple said:

Even in court cases?

We will have to ask our org. lawyer ISaidLifeisjustagame. My thoughts, though are that I don't think this case will go to a jury (too much risk). Don't know if cases settled out of court allow documents to be read by the public. I think they will try to protect Prince...redacting

[Edited 8/29/18 19:08pm]

True, it probably will not go to trial.

anangellooksdown said:

I was just listening to an interview in Mixcloud with Susan Rogers. She said she feels that Price was just “done”. That he allowed everything to happen.

I think a lot of people are starting to feel that way. Sad if it's true.

anangellooksdown said:

I was just listening to an interview in Mixcloud with Susan Rogers. She said she feels that Price was just “done”. That he allowed everything to happen.

is this what a clinican might call 'depression'....any therapists out there?

PennyPurple said:

anangellooksdown said:

I was just listening to an interview in Mixcloud with Susan Rogers. She said she feels that Price was just “done”. That he allowed everything to happen.

I think a lot of people are starting to feel that way. Sad if it's true.

Maybe he wasn't sad about it. He was deeply spiritual and so often talked about "going home", that maybe it was a relief. Vanity had died and I wonder if she was a spiritual mentor to him? She may have paved the way and he probably knew she would help him transition. I think as he started to fail, he really did realize how fame etc. does not truly sustain you.

I get the idea at times that he admired her ability to reject the entertainment world.

One of the orgers said it so well, he may have just wanted to curl up in God's hands/arms

[Edited 8/30/18 19:16pm]

[Edited 8/30/18 19:22pm]

Sorry to be so often bringing up stigma, but it's one of the factors that may have affected P's mood and choices. We don't know if it did. If it did, we don't know how much.

If P could have gone public to a world that was less ignorant and more compassionate and sophisticated about his illness, perhaps some things may have been different. We have no way of knowing.

Of course, getting treatment isn't, at all, the same thing as going public. But in such a position, concern about things becoming public is always a factor. Also, beyond the public, there's the issue of fully acknowledging an illness to those close to a person. That can be tough when it's often ignorantly considered an illness that makes one "less than."

[Edited 8/30/18 19:50pm]

rednblue said:

Sorry to be so often bringing up stigma, but it's one of the factors that may have affected P's mood and choices. We don't know if it did. If it did, we don't know how much.

If P could have gone public to a world that was less ignorant and more compassionate and sophisticated about his illness, perhaps some things may have been different. We have no way of knowing.

A definite possibility

803 said:

https://khn.org/news/suic...republish/ Article has nothing to do with prince. Just thought provoking.

Very good article. Thanks for sharing.

To all those who face suffering or loss of loved ones, due to any cause, my heart goes out.

One of the things that moves me most about P's music is how it's so beautifully full of the longing people have for their loved ones. It's so full of the ache we have to be together, to hold one another.

June7, I am so terribly sorry to hear of your loss. I am deeply touched by your opening words, and by your kindness and generosity.

[Edited 8/30/18 20:06pm]

[Edited 8/30/18 20:06pm]

PennyPurple said:

803 said:

https://khn.org/news/suic...republish/ Article has nothing to do with prince. Just thought provoking.

Very good article. Thanks for sharing.

co-sign, great article and I def think it belongs on this thread.

PennyPurple said:

803 said:

https://khn.org/news/suic...republish/ Article has nothing to do with prince. Just thought provoking.

Very good article. Thanks for sharing.

Yes, THANK YOU! It's so great that above description links to the report, and that the report is available as full text, not just abstract. Often it's not the case. So thought provoking that I'm moved to put the link to the report here. https://injuryprevention....018-042889

[Edited 8/30/18 20:18pm]

Would like to add one thing to thought provoking ideas below. Would like to spell out that it's not at all uncommon for someone with problems with control of substance use to be trying to self-medicate physical pain, or pain connected to the risk factors (trauma, mental health conditions) stated below.

"SIM is intended to promote prevention and earlier interventions through recognising that common antecedent risk factors exist (eg, trauma, mental health disorders) and may be more precisely defined and targeted without sacrificing parallel efforts to discern vulnerabilities that are distinct for suicide versus unintentional self-injury....Readily available, potent heroin (often contaminated with fentanyl) is particularly lethal, which may serve to increase the case:fatality ratio....most injection opioid users knowingly engage in a pattern of repetitive self-harm associated with significant morbidity and mortality."

https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/early/2018/08/08/injuryprev-2018-042889.long

[Edited 8/30/18 21:30pm]

Way back home (I speculate) is a song about "suicide euphoria". Often, when folks decide to commit suicide, they have days of absolute euphoria (even an appreciation for the folks around them). (It is even shown in the miniseries and book 13 Reasons Why). This is often due to a weight being lifted off their shoulders. They know the stress, tension, confusion, pain and numbness will end. Remember in that song, he says "those happy endings are still a mystery". So, there is still an undercurrent of sadness in that song about his inability to attain a happy ending. But he seems to have reconciled his spirituality with his depression/suicidal thoughts over how his life was panning out. The song came out 2 years before he died, so I don't think he had any immediate plans. But I do think like susan said, he was letting the chips fall where they may where his addiction was concerned and knew that eventually it would probably take him out. Probably the reason why he played a deliberate game of Russian Roulette was because, being a religious man, direct forms of suicide probably were scary to him. If you have seen the film "Deerhunter" you would know what I mean. Spoiler: a distressed Vietnan veteran/victim of torture later after escaping spends the rest of his life volunteering to play Russian Roulette until it kills him.

peggyon said:

PennyPurple said:

I think a lot of people are starting to feel that way. Sad if it's true.

Maybe he wasn't sad about it. He was deeply spiritual and so often talked about "going home", that maybe it was a relief. Vanity had died and I wonder if she was a spiritual mentor to him? She may have paved the way and he probably knew she would help him transition. I think as he started to fail, he really did realize how fame etc. does not truly sustain you.

I get the idea at times that he admired her ability to reject the entertainment world.

One of the orgers said it so well, he may have just wanted to curl up in God's hands/arms

[Edited 8/30/18 19:16pm]

[Edited 8/30/18 19:22pm]

[Edited 8/31/18 3:50am]

[Edited 8/31/18 3:52am]

Bodhitheblackdog said:

peggyon said:

anangellooksdown said:

Everyone’s depressed. This is why I laugh when doctors or psychiatrists label patients with “depression”. Especially when pointing their fingers. They are at least as depressed as the patient. One thing Susan Rogers wanted to make clear is that Prince was human. He was a man. Yes, some of us can see that he was very in line with God too. But all human life bodily perishes eventually. He came here to live his life and when he felt or knew it was time, I think he didn’t fight it. Remember the pastor at his celebration saying, “Never question God’s timing.” Prince, I believe, didnt. Was there a melancholy feeling that this was “it”? Probably. He had such a good life. (smiles). Perhaps that is why he told Judith he longed for “the good old days”. Things were changing all around him in this world and he knew it. He wasn’t kidding when he began speaking of passing the torch to a younger generation. One he didn’t belong to. He did his job. He left his gift. We should all be so fortunate to achieve so much in whatever quieter realm we may. Being a star or known about isn’t the only way to fulfill our purpose. Some of us may only really help one person and that will be a lot. With Prince, I feel he came to an acceptance of his situation; knew the time was coming. We should too. We can feel sad that he’s not here in the form he was anymore while at the same time being happy. Prince was so wise. He knew in his 40s there was a chance he wouldn’t “make it to 60”. [Edited 8/31/18 5:07am]

Not making it to 60 was entirely under his control, however.

Though he was deeply spiritual, he actively sought fame and think he enjoyed the perks well into his older years. I think he was continually searching for comfort and peace which seemed to elude him.

He tried fame, immersion in music and eventually drugs. I feel there was a very deep discomfort in him that was difficult to assuage and this may have fueled his attraction to the "hereafter" and eventually drugs.

I think he tired of trying so many ways of finding comfort/peace on this plane of existence. He strikes me as someone who had difficulty manufacturing that internally.

I noticed while he was talking to Judith about the "good old days", it seemed odd to me, as he had just gotten off the stage where his fans were actively giving him so much love...that would have sustained many for several months.

I often compare him to David Bowie (with love). It seemed David could walk away and find contentment in the next phase of his life (domesticity). I do not think Prince was comfortable with monogamy so domesticity would not have been his thing, but how about opening a music school at Paisley (like a Berklee School of Music), or another simple creative outlet. The world has so many simple pleasures that he did not seem to find nourishing.

Another topic of concern for me is his statement that "I have finished all I have come to do here"

Unless he was terminally ill, (he could have been??), then as a staunch believer in his brand of conservative Christianity, he would have known that it was up to God to determine when he was finished.

If his decline was a result of drug use, then his religion would not have condoned that statement as that was cover for "I may die of a drug overdose as a result of my drug use.

It would have been Prince self-mythologizing again.

[Edited 8/31/18 7:01am]

I would like to amend my statement that reaching 60 was entirely under control. If he was very ill, that would not be a correct statement. Drug use, though, was a choice

[Edited 8/31/18 7:12am]

peggyon said:

peggyon said:

anangellooksdown said:

Everyone’s depressed. This is why I laugh when doctors or psychiatrists label patients with “depression”. Especially when pointing their fingers. They are at least as depressed as the patient. One thing Susan Rogers wanted to make clear is that Prince was human. He was a man. Yes, some of us can see that he was very in line with God too. But all human life bodily perishes eventually. He came here to live his life and when he felt or knew it was time, I think he didn’t fight it. Remember the pastor at his celebration saying, “Never question God’s timing.” Prince, I believe, didnt. Was there a melancholy feeling that this was “it”? Probably. He had such a good life. (smiles). Perhaps that is why he told Judith he longed for “the good old days”. Things were changing all around him in this world and he knew it. He wasn’t kidding when he began speaking of passing the torch to a younger generation. One he didn’t belong to. He did his job. He left his gift. We should all be so fortunate to achieve so much in whatever quieter realm we may. Being a star or known about isn’t the only way to fulfill our purpose. Some of us may only really help one person and that will be a lot. With Prince, I feel he came to an acceptance of his situation; knew the time was coming. We should too. We can feel sad that he’s not here in the form he was anymore while at the same time being happy. Prince was so wise. He knew in his 40s there was a chance he wouldn’t “make it to 60”. [Edited 8/31/18 5:07am]

Not making it to 60 was entirely under his control, however.

Though he was deeply spiritual, he actively sought fame and think he enjoyed the perks well into his older years. I think he was continually searching for comfort and peace which seemed to elude him.

He tried fame, immersion in music and eventually drugs. I feel there was a very deep discomfort in him that was difficult to assuage and this may have fueled his attraction to the "hereafter" and eventually drugs.

I think he tired of trying so many ways of finding comfort/peace on this plane of existence. He strikes me as someone who had difficulty manufacturing that internally.

I noticed while he was talking to Judith about the "good old days", it seemed odd to me, as he had just gotten off the stage where his fans were actively giving him so much love...that would have sustained many for several months.

I often compare him to David Bowie (with love). It seemed David could walk away and find contentment in the next phase of his life (domesticity). I do not think Prince was comfortable with monogamy so domesticity would not have been his thing, but how about opening a music school at Paisley (like a Berklee School of Music), or another simple creative outlet. The world has so many simple pleasures that he did not seem to find nourishing.

Another topic of concern for me is his statement that "I have finished all I have come to do here"

Unless he was terminally ill, (he could have been??), then as a staunch believer in his brand of conservative Christianity, he would have known that it was up to God to determine when he was finished.

If his decline was a result of drug use, then his religion would not have condoned that statement as that was cover for "I may die of a drug overdose as a result of my drug use.

It would have been Prince self-mythologizing again.

[Edited 8/31/18 7:01am]

Peggyon, I really appreciate your thoughtful points about a complicated situation. The fact that there may easily have been some cover and self-mythologizing in the mix would have been affected by stigma.

Taking a medical view (and I understand some here aren't interested in that), whether typical human behavior is threatening or disordered is often defined by the degree or level of a behavior or lab reading. Sometimes people use substances in ways that make for a medical condition, but substance use often doesn't meet those criteria. Same for depression, which we all experience. I think it's unfortunate that some medical conditions have a name (e.g. depression) that is a state experienced at times by all. Again, it's a matter of context and degree, just as with substance use. Looking to another area of medicine, though eating lots of doughnuts isn't good for anyone, sugar intake is a different matter, a different degree of threat, for someone with diabetes than it is for someone who doesn't have that medical condition.

Many people who are seriously ill, be it with heart disease, depression, substance conditions, cancer, etc., come to forks in the road regarding treatment. When someone is seriously ill, I suspect that any pull to self-mythologize is affected by whether their medical condition(s) are stigmatized. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing it's easier (re: stigma) for someone to announce that they are struggling with serious complications of, say, diabetes (which is complicated in and of itself with type 1 vs. type 2, etc.), than it it is for someone to announce that they are struggling with a substance use condition.

I will admit to a personal bias inclusive of a medical view. I have a bipolar close relative who was in the ICU for suicide attempt 20 years ago. He survived, and he says he's happy to be here. It breaks my heart that his life almost ended 20 years ago. Everyone does experience depression (and experiencing depression is not the same as depression, the medical condition), and he could have declined to continue medical treatment based on a label of bipolar depression, given that everyone is in God's hands. I respect that view, but I'm glad that he did get medical treatment.

anangellooksdown said:

peggyon said:

I would like to amend my statement that reaching 60 was entirely under control. If he was very ill, that would not be a correct statement. Drug use, though, was a choice

[Edited 8/31/18 7:12am]

With all due respect, addiction is never a choice. I’ll expand on this below. In Prince’s case he was taking these drugs to quell physical pain. That’s a dependency. These drugs do become troublesome emotionally later though. They cause huge emotional swings and I do not know if Prince ultimately kept taking them also to try and stabilize the moods they were causing or for other already existing or new emotional pain of life. If he began taking the drugs for emotional pain then that would be an addiction. I think it’s hard for any of us to know why he began taking them. We do know that he was very against drugs. He even said, “It’s easy to drink a lot of coffee and then say you feel good.” Wow. He was so smart. I am inclined to believe his drug use began due to physical pain; not emotional. Again, it’s hard to pick apart, because he might’ve enjoyed the elusive feeling it gave him too. Or he might’ve hated not being in absolute 100% control. I dont know. With all due respect though, and not necessarily in regards to Prince - but just for general understanding about true addiction, addiction is never a “choice”. It is an obsession of the mind, and it as an obsession so powerful that it is beyond the control of the user - whether it be pills, food, cigarettes, etc. Once a person passes through the well-known stages of the addiction and “crosses” a certain line of using their drug of choice, there’s no going back. A pickle can’t be a cucumber. A true addict has to have a Power greater than themselves to relieve that obsession. It is the only thing that works. [Edited 8/31/18 8:10am] [Edited 8/31/18 8:11am]

Angelslookdown, I really appreciate your thoughts, too. Though we come from different perspectives, I think both of our perspectives show that addiction is associated to a false degree with "choice" and "character," vs. other medical conditions.

Just one thing that demonstrates this is the fact that it's NOT simply those who take a "frat boy" (excuse stereotype used for sake of trying to be brief for once) or reckless approach to drinking that are most likely to become addicted. We have different vulnerabilities to addiction that are often there from birth or early in life experience.

Anyone who ever had a glass of wine or picked up a cigarette took a risk. If we harshly condemn that, we harshly condemn a lot of people.

I'm not saying that people with addiction have zero choice or free will. I'm just saying that addiction, and sometimes psychiatric conditions, are often singled out as character issues.

anangellooksdown said:

peggyon said:

I would like to amend my statement that reaching 60 was entirely under control. If he was very ill, that would not be a correct statement. Drug use, though, was a choice

[Edited 8/31/18 7:12am]

With all due respect, addiction is never a choice. I’ll expand on this below. In Prince’s case he was taking these drugs to quell physical pain. That’s a dependency. These drugs do become troublesome emotionally later though. They cause huge emotional swings and I do not know if Prince ultimately kept taking them also to try and stabilize the moods they were causing or for other already existing or new emotional pain of life. If he began taking the drugs for emotional pain then that would be an addiction. I think it’s hard for any of us to know why he began taking them. We do know that he was very against drugs. He even said, “It’s easy to drink a lot of coffee and then say you feel good.” Wow. He was so smart. I am inclined to believe his drug use began due to physical pain; not emotional. Again, it’s hard to pick apart, because he might’ve enjoyed the elusive feeling it gave him too. Or he might’ve hated not being in absolute 100% control. I dont know. With all due respect though, and not necessarily in regards to Prince - but just for general understanding about true addiction, addiction is never a “choice”. It is an obsession of the mind, and it as an obsession so powerful that it is beyond the control of the user - whether it be pills, food, cigarettes, etc. Once a person passes through the well-known stages of the addiction and “crosses” a certain line of using their drug of choice, there’s no going back. A pickle can’t be a cucumber. A true addict has to have a Power greater than themselves to relieve that obsession. It is the only thing that works. [Edited 8/31/18 8:10am] [Edited 8/31/18 8:11am]

No disrespect, but "addiction" vs. "dependency" is not determined by whether someone began, or is currently, taking drugs for physical pain, emotional pain, or both.

[Edited 8/31/18 8:44am]

rednblue said:

anangellooksdown said:

peggyon said: With all due respect, addiction is never a choice. I’ll expand on this below. In Prince’s case he was taking these drugs to quell physical pain. That’s a dependency. These drugs do become troublesome emotionally later though. They cause huge emotional swings and I do not know if Prince ultimately kept taking them also to try and stabilize the moods they were causing or for other already existing or new emotional pain of life. If he began taking the drugs for emotional pain then that would be an addiction. I think it’s hard for any of us to know why he began taking them. We do know that he was very against drugs. He even said, “It’s easy to drink a lot of coffee and then say you feel good.” Wow. He was so smart. I am inclined to believe his drug use began due to physical pain; not emotional. Again, it’s hard to pick apart, because he might’ve enjoyed the elusive feeling it gave him too. Or he might’ve hated not being in absolute 100% control. I dont know. With all due respect though, and not necessarily in regards to Prince - but just for general understanding about true addiction, addiction is never a “choice”. It is an obsession of the mind, and it as an obsession so powerful that it is beyond the control of the user - whether it be pills, food, cigarettes, etc. Once a person passes through the well-known stages of the addiction and “crosses” a certain line of using their drug of choice, there’s no going back. A pickle can’t be a cucumber. A true addict has to have a Power greater than themselves to relieve that obsession. It is the only thing that works. [Edited 8/31/18 8:10am] [Edited 8/31/18 8:11am]

No disrespect, but "addiction" vs. "dependency" is not determined by whether someone began, or is currently, taking drugs for physical pain, emotional pain, or both.

[Edited 8/31/18 8:44am]

peggyon said:

rednblue said:

No disrespect, but "addiction" vs. "dependency" is not determined by whether someone began, or is currently, taking drugs for physical pain, emotional pain, or both.

[Edited 8/31/18 8:44am]

No disreapect to you either, but having no control over an addiction is not fair to many addicts who

have decided to obtain treatment. Yes, addicition is really horrible, but everyone has a choice and choosing treatment of one type or another requires diligence and guts. I am not minimizing addiction.

There are many ways to address physical and emotional pain.

There are non-opiate medications such as Motrin, Advil, Naprosyn. These can often be taken with low dose Tylenol.There is physical therapy, massage, heat therapy, surgery, biofeedback

Emotional pain can be addressed by therapy, exercise, journaling, etc. etc. One does not need to go straight to opiates. Otherwise, many of us would be opiate addicts. We all have difficulties in life. We all have our stories. Prince is not special in this regard

[Edited 8/31/18 9:23am]

peggyon said:

peggyon said:

No disreapect to you either, but having no control over an addiction is not fair to many addicts who

have decided to obtain treatment. Yes, addicition is really horrible, but everyone has a choice and choosing treatment of one type or another requires diligence and guts. I am not minimizing addiction.

There are many ways to address physical and emotional pain.

There are non-opiate medications such as Motrin, Advil, Naprosyn. These can often be taken with low dose Tylenol.There is physical therapy, massage, heat therapy, surgery, biofeedback

Emotional pain can be addressed by therapy, exercise, journaling, etc. etc. One does not need to go straight to opiates. Otherwise, many of us would be opiate addicts. We all have difficulties in life. We all have our stories. Prince is not special in this regard

[Edited 8/31/18 9:23am]

Agree completely. Don't see the relevance to my statement above, though.

Anyway, complete agreement with your statement. In fact, though I think there is a lot of positive in 12 step programs, one big issue I have is with the declaring powerlessness over substances (vs. powerlessness over anything else in life.)

Some might say, I'm nitpicking, but to me, it's important. IMO, the key is humility, and that is not the same as powerlessness.

Also, with many other serious illness, I don't see as many statements that earlier personal choices figure (on average!) into many later outcomes. This despite the fact that these choices are known to be a part of the picture when it comes to some of the most common causes of suffering and death. So, there's a disparity there. But again, I completely agree with your above statement.

peggyon said:

peggyon said:

No disreapect to you either, but having no control over an addiction is not fair to many addicts who

have decided to obtain treatment. Yes, addicition is really horrible, but everyone has a choice and choosing treatment of one type or another requires diligence and guts. I am not minimizing addiction.

There are many ways to address physical and emotional pain.

There are non-opiate medications such as Motrin, Advil, Naprosyn. These can often be taken with low dose Tylenol.There is physical therapy, massage, heat therapy, surgery, biofeedback

Emotional pain can be addressed by therapy, exercise, journaling, etc. etc. One does not need to go straight to opiates. Otherwise, many of us would be opiate addicts. We all have difficulties in life. We all have our stories. Prince is not special in this regard

[Edited 8/31/18 9:23am]

Also, FWIW, I was once really struggling with something for which my doctor suggested a highly effective treatment.

I decided against the treatment, as studies showed that the treatment has a high addictive potential.

Hopes this helps to demonstrate that I really do hear and support what you're saying.

We forget that big Pharma and the Dr.s helped create this opioid crisis. Again people who have severe chronic pain were prescribed these pills, which they didn't know was so highly addicting. Big Pharma hid it from everyone. And here we are.