Bodhitheblackdog said:

shednz said:

I've read the lot and used NYT serach function for some revisits. As far as I can tell (and there's a lot so I could well be mistaken) it wasn't complete roulette. Bayer bottles had pills that mixed fentanyl and lidocaine. Aleve bottle had Lidocaine. There was a vitamin bottle that had pills with different ingredients - lidocaine and hydrocodone but the one he seemed attached to was the Bayer - it was in Moine as well. I would like to know the quantity of fentanyl in each watson 853 in the bayer bottle (and if they were at all consistent across the pills). They were tested for quantity at the DEA lab in Chicago but I haven't found the results. If he meant to take a legitimate watson 853 why didn't he take the hydrocodone/oycodone that Kirk got from Schulenberg and that were sitting in the briefcase?

...because he preferred Fentanyl...

He did NOT know there was Fentanyl in them... Also, he did NOT know the pills he had were counterfeit.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

nelcp777 said:

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

Im looking at the the drug analysis records and these Watson 853's were so inconsistent..

Some only contained hydrocodone.

Some only contained Lidocaine.

Some contained Fentanyl and Lidocaine.

That is what makes them so dangerous. Perhaps P had legit Vicodin and his source mixed up street vicodine with legit. This explains how he had Lidocaine along with fentanyl in his system. Unfortunately, he grabbed the wrong pill. I believe he waited till Kirk and Meron left. At some point, he took a pill, could have contained only licodaine. If it hydrocodine, he would not have taken another. The first pill did not work, took a second with lidocaine and fentanyl. Got in the elevator, leaned up against the wall, started drooling and succumbed to the drugs. Pure speculation on my end.

I like your idea but would it explain the level of fentanyl in his body? Maybe not...

Enablers provided the drugs coz all they were interested in was a paycheck. Now that he is gone so is the enablers salary - vultures

Bodhitheblackdog said:

shednz said:

I've read the lot and used NYT serach function for some revisits. As far as I can tell (and there's a lot so I could well be mistaken) it wasn't complete roulette. Bayer bottles had pills that mixed fentanyl and lidocaine. Aleve bottle had Lidocaine. There was a vitamin bottle that had pills with different ingredients - lidocaine and hydrocodone but the one he seemed attached to was the Bayer - it was in Moine as well. I would like to know the quantity of fentanyl in each watson 853 in the bayer bottle (and if they were at all consistent across the pills). They were tested for quantity at the DEA lab in Chicago but I haven't found the results. If he meant to take a legitimate watson 853 why didn't he take the hydrocodone/oycodone that Kirk got from Schulenberg and that were sitting in the briefcase?

...because he preferred Fentanyl...

Exactly. While the respiratory retardation might have been "accidental" the choice to take fentanyl doesn't appear to be, from my reading.

PeteSilas said:

kmama07 said:

Dibblekins said: My guess is Russian roulette since they were counterfeit pills?

i've thought many times that if he wanted to commit suicide, he was smart enough to make it look accidental but of course no one wants to hear that either. Either way, he knew what was going on, it's not like he was the first rock star to fuck with drugs, he knew.

Another poster above (Shedz?) says that the different Watson 853s were stored in separate places - suggesting that:

a) they were from different batches / different sources,

b) Prince had some sort of mechanism in place to differentiate between the various types of W853 pill.
.
I guess I'd be curious as to whether anyone else was aware of / complicit in this mechanism and / or if it may have been used as a way to 'hide' what was going on to prying eyes / authorities. After all, if all pills look the same, it would be very easy to hide the truth of their individual contents from others, even if 'some' of them happen to be taken away for analysis at any given point.

.
And, unpalatable as it may be to some, having a mechanism in place may also indicate a deliberate choice to repeat what happened on the 'plane. I can't quite get away from the fact that Prince had been behaving differently and doing things which seem to suggest 'an ending' in his last couple of years.
.
Also, as has been mentioned above, the bizarrely long wait after Kirk / Meron collected Andrew Kornfield and going to PP - despite it being a 'critical / emergency situation' (or words to that effect), despite seemingly urging the California medics to 'catch a red eye flight' and get there asap...Why then wait for almost 3 hours before going to PP?

.
Prince had separate quarters within the premises so why not just go to the non-residential portion of PP and wait? It's almost as if the wait was intentional, to give Prince time - not to get himself out of bed, but to give him time to do what he needed to do.

.
I'm not, for one minute, saying that Andrew / the Kornfields were complicit in anything (in fact, the sense I get is that AK was simply a rather naive, young man, looking to cover himself in glory, perhaps to his Dad, perhaps to the wider world, by 'saving Prince', albeit in an ill-conceived manner), but maybe, just in case it didn't go as Prince planned, it was felt - by Prince's inner circle - that an addiction specialist would be useful..?

.
After all, if Prince was as controlling as some are indicating, why shouldn't he have given strict instructions on his 'final destination'? I'm still not sure if Prince was even fully aware of the Kornfields' involvement or what treatment with them might entail. I still get the sense that Prince had other plans...
.
I can't deny that the deleting of emails / shredding of paperwork is hugely frustrating for those of us looking in...Could those communiques have been more than just ways to procure the pill(s) but also 'other' instructions?

jtfolden said:

nelcp777 said:

Thanks. Also the DEA believed (I am paraphasing) that the pills may have came from California as there were busts on presses there. I may be wrong on that. It was a late night when I got to that part.

I don't think they believed they came from California, only that was one possibility. In the end, after two years, no other pills surfaced exactly like these...

Thanks for the clarificaition.

nelcp777 said:

That is what makes them so dangerous. Perhaps P had legit Vicodin and his source mixed up street vicodine with legit. This explains how he had Lidocaine along with fentanyl in his system. Unfortunately, he grabbed the wrong pill. I believe he waited till Kirk and Meron left. At some point, he took a pill, could have contained only licodaine. If it hydrocodine, he would not have taken another. The first pill did not work, took a second with lidocaine and fentanyl. Got in the elevator, leaned up against the wall, started drooling and succumbed to the drugs. Pure speculation on my end.

My conjecture is that, based on reports, he used to have people he knew get pain pills for him under their own name. As his circle grew smaller and he had less people on the payroll, he eventually resorted to getting them off the street and skipping doctor's entirely.

As far as that night goes.... I don't think anyone saw him past 8:30. His last known contact with anyone was a short email at 10:03PM. Kirk and Meron were on the public side of PP until 10:30 or 11PM though. There was no real reason to wait until they left to take anything as they weren't on that side to know what he was doing. ...but for all we know he might have laid down and woken up later in pain and took pills. The only real oddity is his coat and gloves laying on the floor in the hall upstairs. I wish it had been astablished whether he just threw those things off willy nilly.

I, also, can't imagine Prince was used to taking only one pill at a time... It's my understanding addicts build up a tolerence and take more/more frequently. So we have no idea how many he took. He could have downed more than one because he was used to doing that with the "real" ones... but of course he didn't know these had Fentanyl in them. I believe the Bayer bottle was the one in Moline and the one by his bed.

I sort of pictured what you described in the elevator too... I'm just not sure if that area next to the control panel was drool or vomit (it was said he was drooling on the floor, but there was vomit in his airway).

2004Fan said:

nelcp777 said:

That is what makes them so dangerous. Perhaps P had legit Vicodin and his source mixed up street vicodine with legit. This explains how he had Lidocaine along with fentanyl in his system. Unfortunately, he grabbed the wrong pill. I believe he waited till Kirk and Meron left. At some point, he took a pill, could have contained only licodaine. If it hydrocodine, he would not have taken another. The first pill did not work, took a second with lidocaine and fentanyl. Got in the elevator, leaned up against the wall, started drooling and succumbed to the drugs. Pure speculation on my end.

I like your idea but would it explain the level of fentanyl in his body? Maybe not...

I think the pills with fentynal had different levels in each. These pills were not exactly made in a proper lab and had quality control testing. He could have taken 2 hydorcone fakes with fentanyl at different times. Didn't the ME say something along the lines that the stomach content did not have time to dissolve into his systemt?

shednz said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

...because he preferred Fentanyl...

Exactly. While the respiratory retardation might have been "accidental" the choice to take fentanyl doesn't appear to be, from my reading.

I'm not sure what you mean... it seems pretty clear that Prince didn't know there was Fentanyl in only specific pills and he had absolutely no way of nowing one pill from another just by looking at them. The lgitimate pills, the counterfeit with lidocaine, and the counterfeit with lidocaine and fentanyl all looked the same.

NotACleverName said:

Page 168 of the NYT article - https://www.nytimes.com/i...iles1.html - Item 274, Kirk states that Prince confessed the following: "I can't beat this, I need a drink". I believe this was the night of April 20th. Prince knew in 2009 that he was succumbing to his addiction when he stated he was "too close" to MJ's death and sequestered himself in a room for several days. He knew then.....

And that's why he had the hip surgery end 2009/early2010.

Where in any of these reports does it say that Prince took one pill containing "X"amount of substance(s) or many pills containing several different susbstances? Anyone?

nelcp777 said:

luv4u said:

jtfolden said:

nelcp777 said:

That is what makes them so dangerous. Perhaps P had legit Vicodin and his source mixed up street vicodine with legit. This explains how he had Lidocaine along with fentanyl in his system. Unfortunately, he grabbed the wrong pill. I believe he waited till Kirk and Meron left. At some point, he took a pill, could have contained only licodaine. If it hydrocodine, he would not have taken another. The first pill did not work, took a second with lidocaine and fentanyl. Got in the elevator, leaned up against the wall, started drooling and succumbed to the drugs. Pure speculation on my end.

My conjecture is that, based on reports, he used to have people he knew get pain pills for him under their own name. As his circle grew smaller and he had less people on the payroll, he eventually resorted to getting them off the street and skipping doctor's entirely.

As far as that night goes.... I don't think anyone saw him past 8:30. His last known contact with anyone was a short email at 10:03PM. Kirk and Meron were on the public side of PP until 10:30 or 11PM though. There was no real reason to wait until they left to take anything as they weren't on that side to know what he was doing. ...but for all we know he might have laid down and woken up later in pain and took pills. The only real oddity is his coat and gloves laying on the floor in the hall upstairs. I wish it had been astablished whether he just threw those things off willy nilly.

I, also, can't imagine Prince was used to taking only one pill at a time... It's my understanding addicts build up a tolerence and take more/more frequently. So we have no idea how many he took. He could have downed more than one because he was used to doing that with the "real" ones... but of course he didn't know these had Fentanyl in them. I believe the Bayer bottle was the one in Moline and the one by his bed.

I sort of pictured what you described in the elevator too... I'm just not sure if that area next to the control panel was drool or vomit (it was said he was drooling on the floor, but there was vomit in his airway).

I think we are on the same page, you just are better with analyzing things.

I wonder if there is anyway that LE could have told if he was in the studio (logs or does the equipment show stuff like that). I thought he may have laid down too that is why the pill was in the fold of the sheets.

I didn't pay attention to the Bayer bottle detail. Makes sense. As for the gloves and coat, perhaps he was frustrated and just tossed them when he came in?

I will say this, when he told KJ that he can't beat this (my words), that was the closest Prince had ever asked anyone for help.

I bet when KJ didn't receive the message, P may have felt abondoned but not suicidal.

Dibblekins said:

PeteSilas said:

i've thought many times that if he wanted to commit suicide, he was smart enough to make it look accidental but of course no one wants to hear that either. Either way, he knew what was going on, it's not like he was the first rock star to fuck with drugs, he knew.

Another poster above (Shedz?) says that the different Watson 853s were stored in separate places - suggesting that:

a) they were from different batches / different sources,

b) Prince had some sort of mechanism in place to differentiate between the various types of W853 pill.
.
I guess I'd be curious as to whether anyone else was aware of / complicit in this mechanism and / or if it may have been used as a way to 'hide' what was going on to prying eyes / authorities. After all, if all pills look the same, it would be very easy to hide the truth of their individual contents from others, even if 'some' of them happen to be taken away for analysis at any given point.

I don't believe option B is supported by anything in the data dump at all. They were stored in seperate places but in some cases pills were mixed, too. A seems the most likely and would be supported. The rest of the post isn't supported by facts, either. Nobody was covering up a suicide or giving him time to "do what he had to do"... there would be no need to even get him to a doctor or try to get him treatment to begin with...

Menes said:

Where in any of these reports does it say that Prince took one pill containing "X"amount of substance(s) or many pills containing several different susbstances? Anyone?

If memory serves me right, nowhere is it mentioned the number of pills P took.

nelcp777 said:

MMJas said:

This bothers me. Even if you delete stuff from the computer there are ways of accessing it, aren't there? Surely the Police could have done that.
Ûnless they did and realized what was deleted and shredded was personal stuff in order to ensure Prince's privacy and not something incriminating.

From my understanding, Google/Gmail said that the backups are on international servers that do not have to answer US warrants. I am completely paraphasing here.

There are a lot of things on "international servers" that you haven't accessed it.

2004Fan said:

Menes said:

Where in any of these reports does it say that Prince took one pill containing "X"amount of substance(s) or many pills containing several different susbstances? Anyone?

If memory serves me right, nowhere is it mentioned the number of pills P took.

Mmmhmm. Find it.

Menes said:

nelcp777 said:

From my understanding, Google/Gmail said that the backups are on international servers that do not have to answer US warrants. I am completely paraphasing here.

There are a lot of things on "international servers" that you haven't accessed it.

Not that I accessed, but warrants issued from the United States (US) has legal access.

PeteSilas said:

not all, some people are pissed and calling him a fraud, kinda understand their point but no, prince you were no fraud, like springsteen said of himself "i'm a phoney but i'm also the realest thing you ever seen"

cloveringold85 said:

.

I was asking myself that very same question last night; Prince lived in MN his entire life, yet did not have a family doctor??

.

Prince's autopsy will remain sealed for 30-years, according to MN Law; however, when there is a criminal/homicide investigation, once the case is closed, the files go on public record. Anyone can look it up and read it's contents.

.

You can go online and search numerous cold-cases or homicide investigations, and the information is public knowledge.

.

The media or Carver County Sheriff has done nothing wrong by making these files public.

.

If the files were locked, then people would be upset and say that they were trying to cover up what happened to Prince, ya know?

.

I'm glad the files are open -- because now we can finally know the truth -- after 2-very long years of not knowing much of anything!

.

This has taken a lot out of me, personally -- both, mentally and physically, and I'm sure most of us here!! It's been exhausting!! We all have our own personal lives to deal with, but we come here, because we love Prince and he knows he had a Purple Army, who will always love him!!

Whoever is calling Prince a fraud has no idea, absolutely no fucking idea of the pain this man must have endured, both physical due to dancing/jumping/playing and emotional.

ThatWhiteDude said:

Disgusted? I'm outraged. I swear if I would live in the US, I'd hunt down their asses and slap them in the face. Seriously, they claim that P was their friend and yet they didn't do shit to really help him? I don't know about ya'll, but that's not how I'd treat my friends.

You wouldn't have had to llok far this past weekend they were all in MN celebrating.

nelcp777 said:

Menes said:

There are a lot of things on "international servers" that you haven't accessed it.

Not that I accessed, but warrants issued from the United States (US) has legal access.

You missed that one. Think about it.

nelcp777 said:

I think we are on the same page, you just are better with analyzing things.

I wonder if there is anyway that LE could have told if he was in the studio (logs or does the equipment show stuff like that). I thought he may have laid down too that is why the pill was in the fold of the sheets.

I didn't pay attention to the Bayer bottle detail. Makes sense. As for the gloves and coat, perhaps he was frustrated and just tossed them when he came in?

I will say this, when he told KJ that he can't beat this (my words), that was the closest Prince had ever asked anyone for help.

I bet when KJ didn't receive the message, P may have felt abondoned but not suicidal.

Yeah the pill in the bedsheets is a possibly clue (though we honestly have no idea how long it might have been there nor do we know if Prince's bed was typically made each day).

The tv in the room interests me though. It's noticed the tv was covered by a sheet or something so you could hear it but not see the picture. There were remotes in the bed. Judith says he regularly did that (covered it and just listened). It's not clear to me if the tv was ON when they first found it though.

jtfolden said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

...because he preferred Fentanyl...

He did NOT know there was Fentanyl in them... Also, he did NOT know the pills he had were counterfeit.

I think he very well knew that they were counterfeit. He's been getting the counterfeits for years. This isn't his 1st rodeo.

NotACleverName said:

Page 168 of the NYT article - https://www.nytimes.com/i...iles1.html - Item 274, Kirk states that Prince confessed the following: "I can't beat this, I need a drink". I believe this was the night of April 20th. Prince knew in 2009 that he was succumbing to his addiction when he stated he was "too close" to MJ's death and sequestered himself in a room for several days. He knew then.....

EXACTLY...Prince's death was public, protracted, painful as well as unnecessary..."There are none so blind as those who will not see"

The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know. The proverb has been traced back in English to 1546.

precioux said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

I'm calling BS on the both of them because at the time Prince supposedly said it to either of them...neither one of them apparently were phased about it...because they both eventually chose to do absolutely NOTHING about it.

true dat

Not necessarily. Context, remember?
Prince saying "I've done everything I came here to do" out of nowhere and after an overdose is one thing, but probably feeling utterly sick and tired of hiding his addiction and pain, tired of the pain and the lot, that same sentence could mean he was really thinking about retiring. He sold out everywhere he went. He staged big shows, private shows, after hours shows, surprise shows, one man shows, he did the lot. There was probably nothing left that could excite him as much. His body was telling him to stop. Perhaps he was trying to finally take a break from it all, concentrate of the book, making a museum out of PP and probably producing some new artists.

PennyPurple said: