LayzieKiddZ said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

I don't understand how people keep overlooking the fact that Michael knowingly took Propofol, even though he knew he wasn't supposed to be--should not have...... I don't deny the fact that Conrad was an enabler and he could have walked away.....or better yet, he could have CARED for Michael or found someone who would.

.

Anyways, this is tiring me out now, LOL

.

[Edited 7/6/17 17:41pm]

Edited again...typos!

[Edited 7/6/17 17:41pm]

Hah yeah, I don't see how people can keep having the same discussion.

Either way, MJ and Prince passing marked the end of an era. Would've been great to have another MJ album, specifically done in the style of History (his peak in my opinion). And who knows what more gems Prince would blessed us with now that he finally went back to doing hard rock before he passed.

.

Yes, I would have loved to see MJs and Prince's future masterpieces. I'm sure it would have been wonderful. We will never see another Prince or MJ; they were a special and rare breed.

These were on Michael's wall in his room when he passed

The Way You Love Me

I Was The Loser

Best of Joy

Is She Coming Back

D.I.E.

Dark Lady

H20

Remember What I Told You

Can’t Stop Lovin’ You

Silent Spring

You Were There

Hollywood Tonight

Shut Up and Dance

Rock Tonight

Adore

Breath

Lady of Summer

Beautiful Girl

Don’t Walk Away

Barry Gibb/MJ song (All In Your Name)

Coco Butter

(finish Scared of The Moon, Beautiful Girl, Cheater)

Too Late To Turn Back

Throwing You Life Away

Leaving Today to Berlin??

His idea was to release a new single every other month or so during the o2 residency, about 9 to 10 songs.

Then after the 02 shows were over, he'd compile the songs, add another 2 songs then release them as an album.

He had also gotten wary of recording vocals during sessions with producers because he feared the songs would leak before he could get the chance to approve them.

All I know as a rabid Prince fan when MJ passed that felt like half my world was gone. No matter what, there are few memories I have where there wasn't MJ somewhere in the background, even my earliest memories I have of me watching those Jackson 5 cartoons.

morningsong said:

All I know as a rabid Prince fan when MJ passed that felt like half my world was gone. No matter what, there are few memories I have where there wasn't MJ somewhere in the background,.

You really nailed it there for me. MJ has just always been part of life, more than Prince (only because MJ started younger). Even in 2009, there were still two big stars to always go to - MJ & Prince. It's been so hard to rebuild a new way of thinking when MJ passed. Then we get hit w/ P. I wonder how I'll feel after 8 years of Prince being gone, and 15 for MJ.

TrivialPursuit said:

morningsong said:

bboy87 said:

bboy87 said:

These were on Michael's wall in his room when he passed

The Way You Love Me

I Was The Loser

Best of Joy

Is She Coming Back

D.I.E.

Dark Lady

H20

Remember What I Told You

Can’t Stop Lovin’ You

Silent Spring

You Were There

Hollywood Tonight

Shut Up and Dance

Rock Tonight

Adore

Breath

Lady of Summer

Beautiful Girl

Don’t Walk Away

Barry Gibb/MJ song (All In Your Name)

Coco Butter

(finish Scared of The Moon, Beautiful Girl, Cheater)

Too Late To Turn Back

Throwing You Life Away

Leaving Today to Berlin??

His idea was to release a new single every other month or so during the o2 residency, about 9 to 10 songs.

Then after the 02 shows were over, he'd compile the songs, add another 2 songs then release them as an album.

He had also gotten wary of recording vocals during sessions with producers because he feared the songs would leak before he could get the chance to approve them.

Do you think there are any more recordings left to release or have we heard all that we are going to hear from Michael?

[Edited 7/6/17 21:51pm]

cloveringold85 said:

Free2BMe said:

Michael had a billion dollars in assets when he died. He had people around him trying to force him to sell. He never filed for bankruptcy. He was never really broke. I would love to be "broke" with a billion dollars in assets. Just wanted to point out that FACT when people act as if Michael was broke. You can't be broke owning HALF of Sony/ATV. When Michael was murdered, he still owned HALF of Sony/ATV. Sadly, he always said "they" would kill him for the catalogue.

LOL Who told you that? Did you get that from the Martin Bashir interview in the limo in Vegas? MJ would have you believe that. But the estate was in great debt when MJ died. Yes, you can be broke. He had borrowed cash, just to live, against that Sony catalog. He was broke in that he still owed the loan back, people were going unpaid (like those bodyguards, and other staff). He had no cash flow or liquid assets at the ready. He owed more than he had. He lived more lavishly than Prince in many ways, and Thriller wasn't sending in those checks like it once did.

Having the assets, and having money to pay staff are very, very different things. On paper, MJ might have looked like a gazillionaire, but when it came down to it, he barely had a working credit card. No one killed MJ, except Conrad Murray.

Free2BMe said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Possibly, but all his surgeries didn't help any either. I also believe he started abusing pain pills to deal with the stress and emotional pain he was under. When he died, his life was a complete mess. His estate was a damn mess and he had people working for him who lied, cheated and stole from him. People he entrusted betrayed him. I think he became paranoid and just could not trust anyone anymore. Such a sad and tragic ending.

Michael had a billion dollars in assets when he died. He had people around him trying to force him to sell. He never filed for bankruptcy. He was never really broke. I would love to be "broke" with a billion dollars in assets. Just wanted to point out that FACT when people act as if Michael was broke. You can't be broke owning HALF of Sony/ATV. When Michael was murdered, he still owned HALF of Sony/ATV. Sadly, he always said "they" would kill him for the catalogue. [Edited 7/7/17 8:30am]

I agree. He wasn't broke. He was worth millions of dollars at the time of his death. Michaels problem was that he was mismanaged which is why he had a hard time getting paper back cash. Cash is different from assets. He didn't have a good finacial team in line that could liquidate money from his assets and most of his own employees were stealing money from him too.

[Edited 7/7/17 9:37am]

Free2BMe said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Possibly, but all his surgeries didn't help any either. I also believe he started abusing pain pills to deal with the stress and emotional pain he was under. When he died, his life was a complete mess. His estate was a damn mess and he had people working for him who lied, cheated and stole from him. People he entrusted betrayed him. I think he became paranoid and just could not trust anyone anymore. Such a sad and tragic ending.

Michael had a billion dollars in assets when he died. He had people around him trying to force him to sell. He never filed for bankruptcy. He was never really broke. I would love to be "broke" with a billion dollars in assets. Just wanted to point out that FACT when people act as if Michael was broke. You can't be broke owning HALF of Sony/ATV. When Michael was murdered, he still owned HALF of Sony/ATV. Sadly, he always said "they" would kill him for the catalogue. [Edited 7/7/17 8:30am]

That's today's version

By 2008, 75 percent of those assets were leveraged off, Michael Jackson was half a billion under which is why he had to agree to sign up for those 02 shows

He never would have signed up for that if that wasn't the case

TrivialPursuit said:

morningsong said:

All I know as a rabid Prince fan when MJ passed that felt like half my world was gone. No matter what, there are few memories I have where there wasn't MJ somewhere in the background,.

You really nailed it there for me. MJ has just always been part of life, more than Prince (only because MJ started younger). Even in 2009, there were still two big stars to always go to - MJ & Prince. It's been so hard to rebuild a new way of thinking when MJ passed. Then we get hit w/ P. I wonder how I'll feel after 8 years of Prince being gone, and 15 for MJ.

.

My sentiments, exactly! Oh, the Jackson 5 cartoon........my childhood memories!!

.

MJ was such a big part of our childhood and beyond.

Free2BMe said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Possibly, but all his surgeries didn't help any either. I also believe he started abusing pain pills to deal with the stress and emotional pain he was under. When he died, his life was a complete mess. His estate was a damn mess and he had people working for him who lied, cheated and stole from him. People he entrusted betrayed him. I think he became paranoid and just could not trust anyone anymore. Such a sad and tragic ending.

Michael had a billion dollars in assets when he died. He had people around him trying to force him to sell. He never filed for bankruptcy. He was never really broke. I would love to be "broke" with a billion dollars in assets. Just wanted to point out that FACT when people act as if Michael was broke. You can't be broke owning HALF of Sony/ATV. When Michael was murdered, he still owned HALF of Sony/ATV. Sadly, he always said "they" would kill him for the catalogue. [Edited 7/7/17 8:30am]

.

No doubt he had a lot of assets at the time of his death. He had a lot of bills too and people to pay. I watched that Lifetime movie a few weeks back and I'm not sure if the story was actually as it happened. In the movie, his bodyguards did not get paid and it depicts Michael as having money issues. I apologize, but I do not know all the details of Michael's life and you know how these Lifetime movies are....not very accurate.

TrivialPursuit said:

Free2BMe said:

Michael had a billion dollars in assets when he died. He had people around him trying to force him to sell. He never filed for bankruptcy. He was never really broke. I would love to be "broke" with a billion dollars in assets. Just wanted to point out that FACT when people act as if Michael was broke. You can't be broke owning HALF of Sony/ATV. When Michael was murdered, he still owned HALF of Sony/ATV. Sadly, he always said "they" would kill him for the catalogue.

LOL Who told you that? Did you get that from the Martin Bashir interview in the limo in Vegas? MJ would have you believe that. But the estate was in great debt when MJ died. Yes, you can be broke. He had borrowed cash, just to live, against that Sony catalog. He was broke in that he still owed the loan back, people were going unpaid (like those bodyguards, and other staff). He had no cash flow or liquid assets at the ready. He owed more than he had. He lived more lavishly than Prince in many ways, and Thriller wasn't sending in those checks like it once did.

Having the assets, and having money to pay staff are very, very different things. On paper, MJ might have looked like a gazillionaire, but when it came down to it, he barely had a working credit card. No one killed MJ, except Conrad Murray.

.

I just mentioned the bodyguards not getting paid in my other post, so thank you for clearing that up!

.

I think Michael had a lot of money problems and he had people who were working for him who were very dishonest (sound familiar)?.......It's all very sad, because Michael was a good person who got taken advantage of.

Scorp said:

Free2BMe said:

cloveringold85 said: Michael had a billion dollars in assets when he died. He had people around him trying to force him to sell. He never filed for bankruptcy. He was never really broke. I would love to be "broke" with a billion dollars in assets. Just wanted to point out that FACT when people act as if Michael was broke. You can't be broke owning HALF of Sony/ATV. When Michael was murdered, he still owned HALF of Sony/ATV. Sadly, he always said "they" would kill him for the catalogue. [Edited 7/7/17 8:30am]

That's today's version

By 2008, 75 percent of those assets were leveraged off, Michael Jackson was half a billion under which is why he had to agree to sign up for those 02 shows

He never would have signed up for that if that wasn't the case

.

My personal opinion; I don't think MJ wanted to do that last tour; AEG was pushing him to do it. He looked really tired and worn-out. I just wish he had taken better care of himself and not surrounding himself with bad people who were not really looking out for his well-being. I almost think that AEG knew he wasn't going to last and they would get the insurance money. It's just all so very sad. To think someone like MJ or Prince's incredible life could end the way it did.....but we know that legends never die. We will cherish their incredible gifts, always.

Free2BMe said:

Se7en said:

One could argue that MJ was indeed addicted or dependent on propofol. He had taken to using it daily at bedtime because he couldn't sleep without it. Much the same way that Prince had taken to using opioids daily to function.

I would almost argue that MJ might've been more of an addict, as he was taking drugs to block out the world. Shut down. Prince was taking drugs to stay IN the world and create, record, tour, etc.

And, if you want to discuss further, you could argue that they both died from someone else's criminal neglect, as the pills that Prince took were mislabeled. In the case of Prince, that investigation is still ongoing.

Just curious why you think "MJ might've been more of an addict" than Prince when no other drugs were found in Michael's system or body other than the propofol that Murray pumped into him THAT night. The coroner said that they even did tests that could go back WEEKS to tell if any other drugs had been misused. They found NONE. They only found Propofol/ANETHESIA, that Murray used to put Michael to sleep. Btw, if Murray, the murderer, had Monitored Michael, he would be alive today. That was the testimony of the EXPERTS in the courtroom. Drugs didn't kill Michael, Murray's neglect, misuse, carelessness killed Michael. That was also the conclusion that came from evidence presented in the trial.That was not the case with Prince. They found drugs in his body strong enough to kill several people. Just trying to see how you came to the conclusion that MJ was more of an "addict" than Prince. [Edited 7/6/17 14:50pm] [Edited 7/6/17 14:52pm]

I know you're trying to defend MJ and condemn Murray (which, rightfully so - he was negligent) but at the end MJ was using a very powerful anesthetic. Intravenously. Nightly for 60 days if you believe Murray's testimony.

I guess maybe "more of an addict" might not be the right phrasing - but he's certainly not less of one than Prince either.

I see a lot of you do not understand the differences between liquid and fixed assets. Because of
this lack of understanding, you do not comprehend how someone can have, for an example, the
ATV publishing, but still be broke.

Michael Jackson had lots of money in fixed assets but he was spending more than he was making and
was in debt when he died. If you remove his teat from your mouth, and stop navel-gazing, you'd
have a more complete picture of who he was as a person, instead of idolizing him which means you
never know who he really was/is.

Source 1, 2, 3.

Dasein said:

Michael Jackson had lots of money in fixed assets but he was spending more than he was making and
was in debt when he died. If you remove his teat from your mouth, and stop navel-gazing, you'd
have a more complete picture of who he was as a person, instead of idolizing him which means you
never know who he really was/is.

Source 1, 2, 3.

as a entertainment columnist said

MJ was a "millionaire" spending like a "billionaire"

and this is why Martin Bashir said in that 2003 Documentary

“It’s very difficult for him, he has been at the very heights of the musical business, and it’s hard for an individual to be that high and then to come down the mountain, and I’m quite worried how the next few years will play out for Michael Jackson, because I think he finds the whole idea of a declining career impossible to cope with.”

there was nothing left in the end, and that's why after all these years, I think about what should have been rather than what became, when these shows were announced, even though it was supposed to be a show, it was all for show

if he had stayed the course after reaching the very pinnacle, none of this would have happened

[Edited 7/7/17 17:07pm]

Scorp said:

Dasein said:

Michael Jackson had lots of money in fixed assets but he was spending more than he was making and
was in debt when he died. If you remove his teat from your mouth, and stop navel-gazing, you'd
have a more complete picture of who he was as a person, instead of idolizing him which means you
never know who he really was/is.

Source 1, 2, 3.

as a entertainment columnist said

MJ was a "millionaire" spending like a "billionaire"

and this is why Martin Bashir said in that 2003 Documentary

“It’s very difficult for him, he has been at the very heights of the musical business, and it’s hard for an individual to be that high and then to come down the mountain, and I’m quite worried how the next few years will play out for Michael Jackson, because I think he finds the whole idea of a declining career impossible to cope with.”

there was nothing left in the end, and that's why after all these years, I think about what should have been rather than what became, when these shows were announced, even though it was supposed to be a show, it was all for show

if he had stayed the course after reaching the very pinnacle, none of this would have happened

[Edited 7/7/17 17:07pm]

Agreed.

ML2016 said:

Can anyone above the age of 15 listen to Bad, Black or White and Heal the world with a straight face?

Sure. Anyone over 15 with good musical taste. Thanks for asking...douche.

ML2016 said:

homesquid said:

I love Prince but Michael is in a league all his own. Everyone seems to agree Prince was easily the better musician but Michael was the better overall artist and entertainer IMO.

No, he isn't. MJ's post thriller is mediocre in comparison to P. No question about it. Before Thriller he was the greatest entertainer on Earth, but his work (including performances, recordings, appearances) after that went downhill. MJ BEFORE 1984 is slightly above P. After 1984, P eats MJ alive, nose included.

Nope. Bad and Dangeous are as good as or better than anything Prince post Lovesexy. Prince is a prince but MJ is the king.

Dasein said:

Free2BMe said:

Dasein said:

I see a lot of you do not understand the differences between liquid and fixed assets. Because of
this lack of understanding, you do not comprehend how someone can have, for an example, the
ATV publishing, but still be broke.

Michael Jackson had lots of money in fixed assets but he was spending more than he was making and
was in debt when he died. If you remove his teat from your mouth, and stop navel-gazing, you'd
have a more complete picture of who he was as a person, instead of idolizing him which means you
never know who he really was/is.

Source 1, 2, 3.

Sweetie, I understand the difference. However, I was pointing out that Michael wasn't broke. Michael could have sold his half interest in the Sony/ATV catalogue and received liquid assets (cash). As Jermaine said at time of Michael's death, Michael was never broke. I do know that Raymone Bain didn't pay Michael's bills while he was going through the trial from the false allegations. I do know that Michael's brother Randy, who Michael put in charge as he was going through that harrowing farce of a trial, stole money from Michael, didn't pay staff, and did all kind of shady deals behind Michael's back. That is the reason that everything was in a mess when the trial was over. It had shit to do with Michael's spending. It had everything to do with people stealing money from Michael while he was immersed in the trial for his life. Michael had other people taking care of his finances and they #%^*+ over him. After the trial , Michael took back over his finances, paid staff at Neverland who hadn't been paid, fired Randy(sued him for stealing money), got rid of Raymone Bain etc. The so-called spending that was shown on the Basit interview was not what it seemed. All the stuff that Michael ordered from the store was not even deliver d. Michael pretty much was jerking Bashits chain. That's the reason that the salesmen were basically laughing when Michael was walking around saying " I want 2 of these, I want that, I want that, etc.

He wasn't jerkin Bashir's chain......

Michael was giving the impression to his fans (particularly his younger fans) and the viewing public that he was still the king of the throne......

MJ had already sold half of that ATV Catalog by 1995, they called it a "merging"....

and he did that because of declining sales from earllier in the 90s, and no longer being able to maintaining the enormous support he had a decade earlier from his north american/united states following.

Scorp said:

purplethunder3121 said:

bboy87 said:

These were on Michael's wall in his room when he passed

The Way You Love Me

I Was The Loser

Best of Joy

Is She Coming Back

D.I.E.

Dark Lady

H20

Remember What I Told You

Can’t Stop Lovin’ You

Silent Spring

You Were There

Hollywood Tonight

Shut Up and Dance

Rock Tonight

Adore

Breath

Lady of Summer

Beautiful Girl

Don’t Walk Away

Barry Gibb/MJ song (All In Your Name)

Coco Butter

(finish Scared of The Moon, Beautiful Girl, Cheater)

Too Late To Turn Back

Throwing You Life Away

Leaving Today to Berlin??

His idea was to release a new single every other month or so during the o2 residency, about 9 to 10 songs.

Then after the 02 shows were over, he'd compile the songs, add another 2 songs then release them as an album.

He had also gotten wary of recording vocals during sessions with producers because he feared the songs would leak before he could get the chance to approve them.

Do you think there are any more recordings left to release or have we heard all that we are going to hear from Michael?

[Edited 7/6/17 21:51pm]

It depends on what the estate plans on doing.

Michael didn't leave a HUGE wealth of unreleased material in the volume of Tupac or Prince, but there is a lot they can do. Not all of it is completely finished either.

Another problem is quite a bit of it isn't in the hands of the estate, but his collaborators, and some of them are reluctant to work with the estate.. Brad Buxer I think handed over the material he and Michael worked on during 2002-2009:

11pm

Changes

Bottom of My Heart (the shelved Hurricane Katrina song)

I Was The Loser/I Am A Loser

Days In Gloucestershire (rough vocal take)

Children's Hour and a few others.

But some of his collaborators feel the estate not bringing them to work on or finish songs that they were involved in wasn't cool. Michael Prince (I've posted the link to the podcast he was on earlier) said he has hard drives of material and the estate doesn't know what is what because they didn't really look.

Steve Porcaro said the estate called him because they wanted his approval to put out one of the versions of Chicago 1945 (They recorded it in 1984/5 and again for Invincible) BUT the estate wanted his approval to let them remix it and he refused as the song was finished and didn't need to be.

You also have the issue of his video library. Most tour footage from 1978-1984 is held by the estate and his brothers (and possibly Joe) and I think the rights to the Victory Tour are even more complicated.

Free2BMe said:

Scorp said:

He wasn't jerkin Bashir's chain......

Michael was giving the impression to his fans (particularly his younger fans) and the viewing public that he was still the king of the throne......

MJ had already sold half of that ATV Catalog by 1995, they called it a "merging"....

and he did that because of declining sales from earllier in the 90s, and no longer being able to maintaining the enormous support he had a decade earlier from his north american/united states following.

Yes, he was jerking Bashir's chain AND the media's. I knew as soon as he was in that store that he was not serious about buying that stuff. Michael did merge the Beatles catalogue(ATV) with Sony. He received $95 million up front for that MERGER. He did not sell half. The merger meant that Michael now not only owned Beatles, but HALF of the Sony catalogue. This included the copyrights of thousands and thousands of artist like Bruce Springsteen,Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson, Carole King, Queen, Rolling Stones, Taylor Swift, Pharrell Williams, Lady Gaga, Ed Sheehan, Kanye West, Sam Smith, Beyoncé ( don't know if she is still under this umbrella), and many, many more. A black man, Michael Jackson was the SOLE owner of HALF of Sony's publishing. That is the reason that if Michael had not been murdered he would still Own half of the SonyATV publishing.Btw, When Randy worked for Michael, he tried under handed deals to get Michael to sell. Therefore, you are wrong when you say Michael sold HALF of Sony/ATV. He merged ATV with Sony and received $95 million as bonus for merging. That's why I chuckle when idiots say he was broke. They don't know what they are talking about.Michael turned a $47.5. million investment into a billion dollar deal. He did this before any other black artist did such a thing. I still don't know of any other black artist who had that type of power and clout. Jay Z is now doing his thing. Michael did it first. I will never forget how the media called Michael crazy for this purchase. Yeah, crazy like a fox. After Michael's death, the Estate sold Michael's half of the Sony/ATV publishing company for $950 million. If Michael had been alive,he would have never sold his HALF of Sony/ATV. You still try to portray Michael as someone who didn't know what he was doing. For your information, the merger had crap to do with declining sales. It had to do with good business sense. Even with all of the shit thrown at Michael during the false allegations and trial, he still sold as much or more than most artist who didn't even have a tenth of the bad publicity that Michael had thrown at him. Michael Sold Out 50 shows in one city with no new album, no new project, no promotion. Just an announcement. There is NO ONE else in the world who could have done that- then or now- ever. Not only did he sell out 50 shows, it was stated that he could have sold 100 shows in one city. I have no doubt that if he had not been murdered, he would have done those 50 shows. Michael's fans never let him down, they supported him when he was alive and they support him now. [Edited 7/7/17 21:50pm]

I said nothing about him being crazy for buying that catalog and that he didn't/never knew what he was doing......that's not even the issue

those concerts never should have been scheduled, and it should have been officially called off after the initial 4 shows were postponed....

as far as that catalog, and I'm really trying not to talk about all this money and stuff but only showing what led him to sign up for a tour that was not going to see the light of day.......

instead of using that catalog as something to build upon, he used as a means of collateral by leveraging it off to maintain to the press, his fans, and himself that he was still the king of the throne in the same realm that he experience during his pinnacle years, and he did that due to lagging sales and waning support in his home country, even while he was doing well overseas, he didn't rely soley on the leveraging of the ATV catalog to maintain the image, but his own musical assets also..

and of couse MJ was still drawing more anticipation than his contemporaries, but it was due to the stature he built from 1969-1985, his past is what always gave him opportunity to rekindle his career.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/business/worldbusiness/14iht-michael.html

[Edited 7/7/17 22:23pm]

I feel bad for people falling for these two's rants and raves (Free2bme and mjscarousal).

I'm surprised they havent been dealt with yet. If the mods aren't going to do anything about them, we might as well treat them like jokes.

LayzieKiddZ said:

I feel bad for people falling for these two's rants and raves (Free2bme and mjscarousal).

I'm surprised they havent been dealt with yet. If the mods aren't going to do anything about them, we might as well treat them like jokes.

when fans don't like what's being said or don't like considering facts rather than holding onto something that's not real, they call on moderators as a last resort

that's the problem, and that's why there has to be all this annual rememberance of an entertainer who should have did anything else but entertain a very long time ago when the entertainment value no longer became the primary factor

and if those shows never had been scheduled, then there wouldn't be this discussion eight years later

a man who completed two out of the 45 rehearsals that took place and fans are clinging onto the notion that he was equipped and ready to meet that level of expectation to perform a series of concerts stretching over an 8 month period, they are fooling themselves.

You can't just drop out of nowhere after 12 years of not doing a concert show and pick up like that where you left off

He was wearing double layered/triple layered clothing and appeared emaciated

The whole event should have been delayed by a year