I looooove Don't Be Messin' Round, OMG!!!! I know it's just a demo, but I know the finished product would have been amazing!!!

ViintageJunkiie said:

Militant said:

it's obvious from listening, but if you needed more evidence.... this is from Rolling Stone's tribute to Michael that came out a couple of months after he passed.

Seems strange that the Estate and Sony can't match songs up to the correct era. Oh well.

That's what bothers me. I feel like The Estate/Sony thinks we're dumb and thinks we're not going to notice these things...

they are stupid and unprofessional.......

why they didn't use the song price of fame instead of don't be messin ? the song is finished because michael wanted to use it in a pepsi commercial but cancelled the idea at the last minute and used the song bad instead.........

Militant said:

it's obvious from listening, but if you needed more evidence.... this is from Rolling Stone's tribute to Michael that came out a couple of months after he passed.

Seems strange that the Estate and Sony can't match songs up to the correct era. Oh well.

Listen to the part at 1:43. The hiccups from MJ are from Lovely One. He didn't sound anything like this during the BAD era. And then at the end, you can hear what would later become State of Shock. Just giving some examples why I agree this is from the Thriller sessions..

Derek1984 said:

Militant said:

it's obvious from listening, but if you needed more evidence.... this is from Rolling Stone's tribute to Michael that came out a couple of months after he passed.

Seems strange that the Estate and Sony can't match songs up to the correct era. Oh well.

Listen to the part at 1:43. The hiccups from MJ are from Lovely One. He didn't sound anything like this during the BAD era. And then at the end, you can hear what would later become State of Shock. Just giving some examples why I agree this is from the Thriller sessions..

I said the same thing. I was trying to explain to someone about it being a Thriller outtake but they were so sure it was a BAD outtake. You can hear the difference vocally.

The State of Shock reference gives it away just like the hiccup does.

ViintageJunkiie said:

Derek1984 said:

Listen to the part at 1:43. The hiccups from MJ are from Lovely One. He didn't sound anything like this during the BAD era. And then at the end, you can hear what would later become State of Shock. Just giving some examples why I agree this is from the Thriller sessions..

I said the same thing. I was trying to explain to someone about it being a Thriller outtake but they were so sure it was a BAD outtake. You can hear the difference vocally.

The State of Shock reference gives it away just like the hiccup does.

Anybody that really followed Michael over the years would tell folks the differences in vocal styles anyway. He never stayed with one particular vocal style after too long.

ViintageJunkiie said:

Derek1984 said:

Listen to the part at 1:43. The hiccups from MJ are from Lovely One. He didn't sound anything like this during the BAD era. And then at the end, you can hear what would later become State of Shock. Just giving some examples why I agree this is from the Thriller sessions..

I said the same thing. I was trying to explain to someone about it being a Thriller outtake but they were so sure it was a BAD outtake. You can hear the difference vocally.

The State of Shock reference gives it away just like the hiccup does.

Are we trying to figure out the vocal samples used on this?

Cinny said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

I said the same thing. I was trying to explain to someone about it being a Thriller outtake but they were so sure it was a BAD outtake. You can hear the difference vocally.

The State of Shock reference gives it away just like the hiccup does.

Are we trying to figure out the vocal samples used on this?

That "Ooooh!" at 0:10 sounds like it was snatched straight from Captain EO, right before MJ breaks into APOM.

I'm still convinced this McDonalds video is secretly a Thriller outtake...

[Edited 6/3/12 14:11pm]

the official setlist from July 16 1988 is:

Wanna Be Startin Something

This Place Hotel

Another Part of Me

IJCSLY

Shes out of my life

I want you back/the love you save/ill be there

Rock with you

Human Nature

Smooth Criminal

Dirty Diana

Thriller

Bad Groove

Workin day and night

Beat it

Billie Jean

Bad

Man in the Mirror

Whoa. I just realized that tracklist does not include "Shake Your Body" ....
One of his best performances EVER.

Interestingly, "Smooth criminal" was performed live or playback?

LiLi1992 said:

the official setlist from July 16 1988 is:

Wanna Be Startin Something

This Place Hotel

Another Part of Me

IJCSLY

Shes out of my life

I want you back/the love you save/ill be there

Rock with you

Human Nature

Smooth Criminal

Dirty Diana

Thriller

Bad Groove

Workin day and night

Beat it

Billie Jean

Bad

Man in the Mirror

Whoa. I just realized that tracklist does not include "Shake Your Body" ....
One of his best performances EVER.

Interestingly, "Smooth criminal" was performed live or playback?

Unless I'm wrong, I don't think he included that song in his set list after 1987. Just checked, he didn't include it.

[Edited 6/3/12 14:25pm]

Timmy84 said

Unless I'm wrong, I don't think he included that song in his set list after 1987. Just checked, he didn't include it.

[Edited 6/3/12 14:25pm]

very vain.
Performance is really great.
I am willing to sacrifice "She is out of my life" or "This Place Hotel" .... never been enthusiastic about these two numbers.
Thanks for the info, Timmy.

-------------------------------

[Edited 6/3/12 16:10pm]

LiLi1992 said:

Timmy84 said

Unless I'm wrong, I don't think he included that song in his set list after 1987. Just checked, he didn't include it.

[Edited 6/3/12 14:25pm]

very vain.
Performance is really great.
I am willing to sacrifice "She is out of my life" or "This Place Hotel" .... never been enthusiastic about these two numbers.
Thanks for the info, Timmy.

No prob.

Derek1984 said:

Grabbed this from MJJC:

A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

FROM: JOHN BRANCA and JOHN McCLAIN
DATE: MAY 31, 2012
RE: BAD 25 RELEASE


It is great to see the overwhelming support and excitement in the fan community for the upcoming BAD 25 release. A few questions have arisen regarding the Wembley concert DVD. Although the press release wasn’t the place for background details, here is more information:

• We know that Nocturne captured on Umatic tapes the footage projected onto the JumboTrons at the various concerts including Wembley. These tapes were turned over to Michael’s crew and we have confirmed with Patrick Kelly (who headed Michael’s film crew for the European tour) that everything from Europe was sent to LA to be put in Michael’s storage facilities. The same procedures were followed for the US shows.

• Unfortunately, record-keeping in the storage facilities was sporadic, at best, so we do not know what happened to a tape once it was sent for storage. In most cases, once a tape was pulled from the box it arrived in, it was not put back in the original box and where it wound up doesn’t always make sense. As a result, 25 years later not all of the Umatic tapes from the various shows can be located, notwithstanding that we have conducted an extensive survey of all of the storage facilities. So while we believe that the Umatic tape for Wembley was initially sent for storage, we have not been able to locate it. And with regard to the Umatic footage of other concerts, the audio is extremely problematic and therefore these concerts are unusable.

• We know that VHS copies of the Umatics were made when Michael wanted to view a particular concert, but because of the lack of record-keeping, we also didn’t know which concerts existed on VHS. We ultimately did find Michael’s personal VHS viewing copy of the Wembley show attended by Princess Diana and Prince Charles, but not the Umatic. Even finding this VHS felt like a miracle to us!

• So while we continued the search for the Wembley Umatic master, we also researched the audio recordings that existed from all of the concerts including Wembley. Fortunately, the Wembley audio recordings were made using a sound truck, and appear to be the only multi-track recordings from the tour. The other audio/visual recordings that exist, whether Umatic or VHS, are “front of house” mixes, and therefore there are no separate audio recordings that can be used to create a high quality listening experience. It is for this reason that the Wembley audio is the only one suitable to create a live album.

• If we were going to include a live concert DVD in the BAD 25 release package, we had only one choice, Wembley. And there were only two options for visual – the Umatics for a different show or the VHS for Wembley. It would certainly be less expensive for the Estate to be able to create a DVD from a Umatic tape than to spend the time and money to painstakingly restore/enhance the VHS footage, but then we would not be delivering a truly authentic experience and we truly believe that watching this concert with the high quality audio will create a magical experience for all the fans as it has for us. We ultimately chose a lab that has developed its own proprietary technology for doing this kind of work (including restoration for NASA of VHS footage) in order to make the visual experience the best it can be under the circumstances.


We also could have chosen to release the Japanese concert from the first leg of the tour as there is a master of that show; but that concert was essentially a reincarnation of the Victory Tour with only two songs – “Bad” and “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You” – added at the end. It isn’t what we believe the fans would want.


We could have elected not to release a DVD as part of the BAD 25 celebration (and hold out hope that someday we might find the Umatic of the Wembley concert) or we could share with the fans the chance to relive that magical night with pristine audio. We made the decision to go with the latter and provide the fans with the most authentic viewing experience. We believe that the fans will agree it was the right choice when the package is released in September.

Dear The Estate,

I currently have alot of tiem on my hands,and would love to help you with your search of this missing footage. All I require is for you to point me in the direction of the storage facilty,a chair,and the equipment to view on. I will in turn agree to sit all day,and watch every single VHS tape or umatic footage that you have in your possession,and catalog it,as I go. It really would be no trouble,please let me know when I can start.

Sincerely,Your New Employer

mjforever said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

Militant said:

it's obvious from listening, but if you needed more evidence.... this is from Rolling Stone's tribute to Michael that came out a couple of months after he passed.

Seems strange that the Estate and Sony can't match songs up to the correct era. Oh well.

That's what bothers me. I feel like The Estate/Sony thinks we're dumb and thinks we're not going to notice these things...

These are the people that released the bogus Cascio songs. I'd say they think we're more than just dumb... probably think we're braindead. Having said that, the way some of the 'fans' lapped up the bullshit Cascio songs gives them every reason to think that I guess!

As for Branca's statement regarding the Wembley show - we KNOW that at least two Wembley shows were filmed on a combination of 16mm and 35mm and we also know a Paris show was filmed on 16mm and 35mm. So why doesn't the Estate know that?

They're basically saying to the fans 'this is the reason you're going to get another substandard product in the name of Michael Jackson'.

^^^ make sure you all go out and buy the actual single, even though the song is releaesed.. its only like 2 dollars.. because if it doesnt sell, they might not do anymore stuff like that, so make sure you buy it!

alright, so i think some people are misunderstanding something. not necisarilly on this forum, but on a few.. people are saying "i bet none of michaels concerts where recorded in hd" and "what happened to all his concerts being recorded" etc... that needs to stop, i swear people are taking this amazing box set and disecting it untill they find something wrong.. of coarse michaels concerts where recorded, many were televised, and many in hd.. just to name a few bad tour shows, Los Angeles 89,New York 88, Kansas City 88, Rome 88, Tokyo 87, Leeds 88.. the list could go on...and on.. AND ON... the estate knows that the Wembley 88 show is the one we really want, and it is probably the rarest.. we have been asking for the Wembley show for like 10 years, so thats the one they are giving us. the same this with DBMA, just because they released a demo version of a song doesnt mean "the vault is empty" as i and gold dolphin have already posted a fairly large list of unrealesed music on the forum. I love what they did with DBMA, its almost like seeing the creative process of making a song, and i love it.. people need to chill with all this. "the well is dry" "theres nothing left" bullshit, because if you honestly think that you are very very ignorant.

dm3857 said:

alright, so i think some people are misunderstanding something. not necisarilly on this forum, but on a few.. people are saying "i bet none of michaels concerts where recorded in hd" and "what happened to all his concerts being recorded" etc... that needs to stop, i swear people are taking this amazing box set and disecting it untill they find something wrong.. of coarse michaels concerts where recorded, many were televised, and many in hd.. just to name a few bad tour shows, Los Angeles 89,New York 88, Kansas City 88, Rome 88, Tokyo 87, Leeds 88.. the list could go on...and on.. AND ON... the estate knows that the Wembley 88 show is the one we really want, and it is probably the rarest.. we have been asking for the Wembley show for like 10 years, so thats the one they are giving us. the same this with DBMA, just because they released a demo version of a song doesnt mean "the vault is empty" as i and gold dolphin have already posted a fairly large list of unrealesed music on the forum. I love what they did with DBMA, its almost like seeing the creative process of making a song, and i love it.. people need to chill with all this. "the well is dry" "theres nothing left" bullshit, because if you honestly think that you are very very ignorant.

What a load of waffle. WE KNOW that at least 2 of the Wembley shows were filmed on 16mm and 35mm. And WE KNOW that at least one Paris show was filmed on 16mm and 35mm. WE KNOW IT because we can see it with our own eyes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vwHQNQ88cM

What a load of waffle. WE KNOW that at least 2 of the Wembley shows were filmed on 16mm and 35mm. And WE KNOW that at least one Paris show was filmed on 16mm and 35mm. WE KNOW IT because we can see it with our own eyes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vwHQNQ88cM

yes, i know that we know they were recorded, yes i know all of this.. but as we also know they cant find it.. They cant find the WEMBLEY show, people are acting like they have misplaced everything Michael has ever done and we will never see anything ever blah blah blah, so i just wanted to vent about how that was incorrect.

These are the people who released the bogus Cascio songs on the posthumous release. I have absolutely ZERO faith in anything they do or say.

Michael Jackson had professional videographers and he hired people to catalogue his video library. The Estate are trying to tell us that the MOST FAMOUS MAN WHO EVER LIVED, THE BIGGEST ARTIST IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD misplaced film footage of his greatest gigs?

It's all bollocks. How is it that when Michael Jackson wanted hi-res footage of the Bad tour he never had any problems???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxCXRGzKSOM

samhabib said:

These are the people who released the bogus Cascio songs on the posthumous release. I have absolutely ZERO faith in anything they do or say.

Michael Jackson had professional videographers and he hired people to catalogue his video library. The Estate are trying to tell us that the MOST FAMOUS MAN WHO EVER LIVED, THE BIGGEST ARTIST IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD misplaced film footage of his greatest gigs?

It's all bollocks. How is it that when Michael Jackson wanted hi-res footage of the Bad tour he never had any problems???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxCXRGzKSOM

touche' i feel like sony learned from there mistake on the cascio tracks, as they are very adamant on the upcoming songs being UNTOUCHED, idk, its conspiracy. i was just getting tired of people on other forums saying how "the well is dry" and that "this could be one of the last big michael jackson releases" etc.. so i just needed to vent.

Even that's bullshit. Fans don't care about demos being 'untouched'. That wasn't the issue with the Michael CD. It was the fact that there were three songs on there that were clearly fake. THAT WAS the issue. Not that they weren't 'untouched'. But that they were fake. No fan complained about Best of Joy being finished. Or Hollywood Tonight. Or Much Too Soon.

The Estate haven't learnt their lesson until they launch legal proceedings against all concerned. They will always be under a cloud by association.

The Estate's deal with Sony expires 2017. They are absolutely holding stuff back so they can milk another deal. We are NOT getting everything by 2017. That would not make business sense.

Derek1984 said:

The Estate's deal with Sony expires 2017. They are absolutely holding stuff back so they can milk another deal. We are NOT getting everything by 2017. That would not make business sense.

I've heard that too. But the Estate handlers include John Branca, a man with deep set roots with Sony. So who do you think they'll renew their deal with?

Also, when you say 'they are...' who are you talking about? Who are 'they' that are holding stuff back?

samhabib said:

Even that's bullshit. Fans don't care about demos being 'untouched'. That wasn't the issue with the Michael CD. It was the fact that there were three songs on there that were clearly fake. THAT WAS the issue. Not that they weren't 'untouched'. But that they were fake. No fan complained about Best of Joy being finished. Or Hollywood Tonight. Or Much Too Soon.

The Estate haven't learnt their lesson until they launch legal proceedings against all concerned. They will always be under a cloud by association.

Thats why I dont trust none of them.. Do they really think the fans are THAT dumb

I'd go into more detail about all of their other products, the shambles that was the Visions boxset for example, but I'm bored of talking about them to be honest. The Michael Jackson Estate is enough to make me hate Michael Jackson!

maybe i said that wrong, what i meant was i think sony know s now that the fans arent stupid, and they know if they include anymore of those fake tracks its going to fail even worse than the michael album (not even sure if thats possible) lol. but im with you on the 2017 deal thing.. because with bad 25 coming out near the end of this year, we probably wont get anything in 2013.. like someone else said, they are going to milk this deal out and then get another.. because if you think about it we really havent gotten that much in the past 3 years.. This is it,Michael,Immortal,Vision,Bad 25.. Half of that we already had.. now my thing is.. we know for sure there is well over 100 unreleased songs.. there is NO WAY they can release that much material before 2017.. it will eventually be released because they want their money.. but i dont think it will all be before 2017, its impossible,

samhabib said:

Derek1984 said:

The Estate's deal with Sony expires 2017. They are absolutely holding stuff back so they can milk another deal. We are NOT getting everything by 2017. That would not make business sense.

I've heard that too. But the Estate handlers include John Branca, a man with deep set roots with Sony. So who do you think they'll renew their deal with?

Also, when you say 'they are...' who are you talking about? Who are 'they' that are holding stuff back?

"They" being the Estate. I think the Estate could be doing a better job with the material they release and the quality of it. It makes me think this is done intentional just so they can milk another contract to make more money.

Derek1984 said:

Grabbed this from MJJC:

A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

FROM: JOHN BRANCA and JOHN McCLAIN
DATE: MAY 31, 2012
RE: BAD 25 RELEASE


It is great to see the overwhelming support and excitement in the fan community for the upcoming BAD 25 release. A few questions have arisen regarding the Wembley concert DVD. Although the press release wasn’t the place for background details, here is more information:

• We know that Nocturne captured on Umatic tapes the footage projected onto the JumboTrons at the various concerts including Wembley. These tapes were turned over to Michael’s crew and we have confirmed with Patrick Kelly (who headed Michael’s film crew for the European tour) that everything from Europe was sent to LA to be put in Michael’s storage facilities. The same procedures were followed for the US shows.

• Unfortunately, record-keeping in the storage facilities was sporadic, at best, so we do not know what happened to a tape once it was sent for storage. In most cases, once a tape was pulled from the box it arrived in, it was not put back in the original box and where it wound up doesn’t always make sense. As a result, 25 years later not all of the Umatic tapes from the various shows can be located, notwithstanding that we have conducted an extensive survey of all of the storage facilities. So while we believe that the Umatic tape for Wembley was initially sent for storage, we have not been able to locate it. And with regard to the Umatic footage of other concerts, the audio is extremely problematic and therefore these concerts are unusable.

• We know that VHS copies of the Umatics were made when Michael wanted to view a particular concert, but because of the lack of record-keeping, we also didn’t know which concerts existed on VHS. We ultimately did find Michael’s personal VHS viewing copy of the Wembley show attended by Princess Diana and Prince Charles, but not the Umatic. Even finding this VHS felt like a miracle to us!

• So while we continued the search for the Wembley Umatic master, we also researched the audio recordings that existed from all of the concerts including Wembley. Fortunately, the Wembley audio recordings were made using a sound truck, and appear to be the only multi-track recordings from the tour. The other audio/visual recordings that exist, whether Umatic or VHS, are “front of house” mixes, and therefore there are no separate audio recordings that can be used to create a high quality listening experience. It is for this reason that the Wembley audio is the only one suitable to create a live album.

• If we were going to include a live concert DVD in the BAD 25 release package, we had only one choice, Wembley. And there were only two options for visual – the Umatics for a different show or the VHS for Wembley. It would certainly be less expensive for the Estate to be able to create a DVD from a Umatic tape than to spend the time and money to painstakingly restore/enhance the VHS footage, but then we would not be delivering a truly authentic experience and we truly believe that watching this concert with the high quality audio will create a magical experience for all the fans as it has for us. We ultimately chose a lab that has developed its own proprietary technology for doing this kind of work (including restoration for NASA of VHS footage) in order to make the visual experience the best it can be under the circumstances.


We also could have chosen to release the Japanese concert from the first leg of the tour as there is a master of that show; but that concert was essentially a reincarnation of the Victory Tour with only two songs – “Bad” and “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You” – added at the end. It isn’t what we believe the fans would want.


We could have elected not to release a DVD as part of the BAD 25 celebration (and hold out hope that someday we might find the Umatic of the Wembley concert) or we could share with the fans the chance to relive that magical night with pristine audio. We made the decision to go with the latter and provide the fans with the most authentic viewing experience. We believe that the fans will agree it was the right choice when the package is released in September.

This actually does a very good job at explaining why they had to use the source they did.. it is important that the sound quality is #1!