vainandy said:

When he was a little child back with The Jackson Five, they were huge. They were all over the cereal boxes (I think it was Honey Comb or Alpha Bits), they had a cartoon series on TV, and they had a variety show on TV. They even later became the inspiration for folks like New Edition which later sparked New Kids On The Block.

Then during the disco era, "Shake Your Body Down To The Ground" was big, Michael had also starred in "The Wiz", and when he made "Off The Wall", it was absolutely huge. "Triumph" was even moderately successful and his siblings Jermaine and Latoya had even branched out on their own and Janet had already been on "Good Times" and "Different Strokes" which she probably would not have landed if she had not been a part of the Jackson family.

Michael already had made a big impact. The thing is that "Thriller" was so damn unusually hugely successful that it put him on a level where his albums that followed it would never top it but still be huge selling albums that far topped the sales of the albums prior to "Thriller". Actually, music as a whole by other artists would have been better off in the long run if "Thriller" had never happened because everybody kept watering their music down trying to get some of those diverse sales that "Thriller" had. But yes, Michael Jackson had already made a major impact before "Thriller". "Thriller" just upped the sales expectations as to what is considered "successful".

In other words, you wouldn't have had labels telling their artists "do it like Michael." You had artists foolish enough to think they can have an "event video" as they used to call Michael's videos (and he only had about six by then, three of the event videos being from Thriller).

I also think due to some noise Rick James also made about MTV not playing black acts (same with Dick Griffey), more black American acts (and American acts in general; MTV mainly played British acts; only Americans were Todd Rundgren, Hall & Oates and Pat Benatar) got on it and Michael made the most of it. His videos were unlike anyone else's too.

[Edited 4/4/11 21:12pm]

....Kinda thread is this?

vainandy said:

Graycap23 said:

I know all of that but I can't compare the Wall Mj 2 the Thriller Mj.

So is what you're really trying to say is that Michael Jackson after "Thiller" didn't even seem like he was the same person that he was before "Thriller"? If so, I totally agree.

But I see the same thing with Prince also. From 1978 to 1984, each album gradually sounded slightly different until they reached on up to a boiling point with "Purple Rain" which totally blew up crossover successwise and made him a huge star. Then, with "Around The World In A Day", he didn't even seem like he was the same person that had previously recorded stuff like "Let's Work", "Lady Cab Driver", "I Wanna Be Your Lover", "Head", "Controversy", etc.

Before and on up through "Purple Rain", he had always been a cool bad ass artist and had cool ass fans too. He had always been extremely talented but was mainly about throwing down hard with his cold ass musical style of his own. He was mainly funk/rock with an occasional slow jam or two but never too "artsy", never too "deep" and even though he had always been mysterious, he wasn't talking in riddles every time he said something. Not only did he change musicwise but a lot of his new fans were totally different than his previous fans. It kinda reminds me Michael Jackson also. I remember around 1988 or so and "Entertainment Tonight" had done a story about someone from Prince's old neighborhood that said Prince never came around anymore and that he wasn't the same person. Well, I can certainly understand that because why the hell would a major entertainer be coming around and hanging out in a neighborhood that they don't have to be in. But then they showed some of the audience that was outside some arena somewhere going to see a Prince concert and talked to some of them. These were some yuppie looking white kids that had on hoods that look like something monks would wear. They looked absolutely crazy as hell and they talked in all that Princebonic talk that made them sound crazy as hell. It definately reminded me of some loony ass Michael Jackson fans and Lord knows it was a total different audience than back in the day when Prince and Rick James fans were having fun trading insults. It just felt like Prince had gone off to La La Land with those loony toons.

I remember seeing a news report from 1984 when The Jacksons were on the Victory Tour and people from Gary were saying how they should do a show in Gary to put money back into the city and that once Michael got big, he never came back.

Um....He left Gary when he was 10 and permanently when he was 12

Is this a serious music thread question? April fools been passed. LOL

Now I can see someone saying they dont prefer the man's music.. thats fine.. BUT to deny his music impact, talent, influence and overall impact on the music industry is plain laughable. Michael was a child prodigy that was gifted with natural incredible talent and grew to be a successful pop legend. He already made his stamp and impact way before popularizing MTV. Not to mention, Michaels influence is MUCH MORE than just MTV and the music video medium.

Graycap23 said:

babynoz said:

Gray, you KNOW I luv ya like a play-cousin but you gotta stop the PWI, (posting while intoxicated),

J/K

Let me explain.

I used 2 see Mj quite a bit here and there pre Thriller and he was a well known celeb, but a "normal" celeb. He could go out in public and he would be treated like any other celeb. He had a very nice solo career.

After the success of Thriller he was on a level probably NEVER seen in the music business pre-Thriller. He could NOT go in public the same way as he could before. His concerts were on a completely level and fans just seem 2 go "crazy" after his success with Thriller. Do u understand what I'm saying?

you really should not even have to explain this to anyone

with thriller he went from being a very popular performer to being the worlds biggest superstar, maybe the biggest the world had ever seen

He wouldn't be as big as he was and still is... But he still be considered a legend.

and he'd stil be alive....

[Edited 4/4/11 22:52pm]

I don't get the whole "Michael was a child prodigy" thing. What is that idea based on? Before 1976 (the year he turned 18), Michael was puppetmastered by Motown and Joe. Sure, as a child, when it came to performing, he had 'soul' that was beyond his years; but to call him a prodigy is premature. His individual creativity wasn't even fully tapped into until the late 70s, when he was in his early 20s.

[Edited 4/4/11 23:36pm]

chamber said:

I don't get the whole "Michael was a child prodigy" thing. What is that idea based on? Before 1976 (the year he turned 18), Michael was a puppetmastered by Motown and Joe. Sure, as a child, when it came to performing, he had 'soul' that was beyond his years; but to call him a prodigy is premature. His individual creativity wasn't even fully tapped into until the late 70s, when he was in his late teens/early 20s.

prod·i·gy

(prd-j)

n. pl. prod·i·gies

1. A person with exceptional talents or powers: a math prodigy.

2. An act or event so extraordinary or rare as to inspire wonder. See Synonyms at wonder.

He may not have been an artist but he was full of talent when he was young.

Puppet huh? Do you say that about Mozart and Beethoven too? They were also forced by their father to practice music 24/7 since they were babies.

Michael himself made the ultimate choice; if he didn't love music and understand what it takes to be a real entertainer when he was young, he would've quit it.

[Edited 4/4/11 23:41pm]

I can't believe this thread hasn't been locked.

fun fun fun fun! And I'm learning a lot....Mods this is why we should get rid of MJ sticky...D=

P.S. JOHNNY DEPP ROCKS! Pirates of the Caribbean ROCKS! Captain Jack Sparrow is the BEST!!! (hope this helps)

[Edited 4/4/11 23:46pm]

NDRU said:

Graycap23 said:

Let me explain.

I used 2 see Mj quite a bit here and there pre Thriller and he was a well known celeb, but a "normal" celeb. He could go out in public and he would be treated like any other celeb. He had a very nice solo career.

After the success of Thriller he was on a level probably NEVER seen in the music business pre-Thriller. He could NOT go in public the same way as he could before. His concerts were on a completely level and fans just seem 2 go "crazy" after his success with Thriller. Do u understand what I'm saying?

you really should not even have to explain this to anyone

with thriller he went from being a very popular performer to being the worlds biggest superstar, maybe the biggest the world had ever seen

But that's not the point.

He is asking if Michael would be AS POPULAR without the videos as he was WITH the videos. I just "got it" a few minutes ago. Gray can be pretty vague at explaining himself.

Graycap23 said:

On his career?

On his sales?

On the way people view his career?

Mj did NOT blow up, until Thriller and the video era.

Thoughts?

But wait a second, The Beatles & ABBA benefited from music videos (then known as video/film promos) years before Michael ever did.

And if we're talking specifically the 1980's MTV golden years, the UK's own David Bowie, Gary Numan, & The Human League were showing all American viewers how to make music videos specifically for MTV. And then of course, the USA's own Michael Jackson raise the standards high with Thriller. The rest is music history.

lastdecember said:

Like anything else that Blows up, it simmers down and then just loses its relevance in the big picture. MTV now is relevant if you are a Snooki fan, but the music video age, really hasnt been since the later 80's to be honest i would even say when MTV was sold was pretty much the end of what its purpose was. They started as an art form to be played in clubs behind things, example Duran Duran making these mini movies and 12" dance mixes, or MJ making his own little films, there was a certain kind of art but also the performance in a video made it work. Alot of acts were already big when MTV started and those artists just started making videos, people like MJ or Prince and others like Hall and Oates, Pat Benatar etc...all these artists were huge but then also made videos.

Videos were just the "new" thing, they werent needed to have a hit, after mtv kicked into gear if you werent already established U HAD TO DO a video it was the new exposure, it was very very rare if you had never been seen before to just put something out without a video back then.

Let just say that Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, & Rebecca Black helped confirm YouTube as THIS current generation's MTV!

Graycap23 said:

babynoz said:

Gray, you KNOW I luv ya like a play-cousin but you gotta stop the PWI, (posting while intoxicated),

J/K

Let me explain.

I used 2 see Mj quite a bit here and there pre Thriller and he was a well known celeb, but a "normal" celeb. He could go out in public and he would be treated like any other celeb. He had a very nice solo career.

After the success of Thriller he was on a level probably NEVER seen in the music business pre-Thriller. He could NOT go in public the same way as he could before. His concerts were on a completely level and fans just seem 2 go "crazy" after his success with Thriller. Do u understand what I'm saying?

1. Thriller-mania = The 1980's version of Beatlemania.

2. Michael Jackson = The first and only recording solo artist in music history that was bigger than Elvis.

TonyVanDam said:

Graycap23 said:

Let me explain.

I used 2 see Mj quite a bit here and there pre Thriller and he was a well known celeb, but a "normal" celeb. He could go out in public and he would be treated like any other celeb. He had a very nice solo career.

After the success of Thriller he was on a level probably NEVER seen in the music business pre-Thriller. He could NOT go in public the same way as he could before. His concerts were on a completely level and fans just seem 2 go "crazy" after his success with Thriller. Do u understand what I'm saying?

1. Thriller-mania = The 1980's version of Beatlemania.

2. Michael Jackson = The first and only recording solo artist in music history that was bigger than Elvis.

Waaaaaaaaaaay bigger than Elvis..

And The Beatles too....yup

Graycap23 said:

vainandy said:

. But yes, Michael Jackson had already made a major impact before "Thriller". "Thriller" just upped the sales expectations as to what is considered "successful".

Can u honestly compare the Off the Wall Mj 2 the Thriller Mj career wise?

Musically, yes (except Off The Wall didn't have a rock track like Thriller's own Beat it).

Culturally, no. Because of Thriller MJ, crossing over to Top 40 mainstream pop radio stations became a big deal to some of the other black artists (especially Lionel Ritchie, Prince, and Kool & The Gang) that wanted to sell more than just one million copies per new album.

Timmy84 said:

Off the Wall sold 5 million copies by 1982. Prior to that, not a single album by a best-selling R&B artist sold that much, the biggest was Stevie's Songs in the Key of Life and when Thriller was released, the best-selling album of all time had sold 14 million (Saturday Night Live). Think about it for a minute...

saturday night fever, tim...

There were millions of people of all ages that played his music all the time in their houses. Not everyone had an access to video channels in the 1980s, because you had to have cable TV. In fact, I didn't see "Thriller" myself until 1993. I think it's fair to say that his music - the melodies, the rhythms, what was essential MJ'ish about them - made a huge impact on people. It shaped up people's tastes and even the way they perceive music in general.

A senior musicologist once told me that he had traveled to the deepest of Amazon to make recordings of the songs the shamans living there were using during their rituals. To his amazement he found out that many of the songs were songs by Michael Jackson, but they had just changed the words. I'm pretty sure those guys didn't have cable TV.

bboy87 said:

vainandy said:

So is what you're really trying to say is that Michael Jackson after "Thiller" didn't even seem like he was the same person that he was before "Thriller"? If so, I totally agree.

But I see the same thing with Prince also. From 1978 to 1984, each album gradually sounded slightly different until they reached on up to a boiling point with "Purple Rain" which totally blew up crossover successwise and made him a huge star. Then, with "Around The World In A Day", he didn't even seem like he was the same person that had previously recorded stuff like "Let's Work", "Lady Cab Driver", "I Wanna Be Your Lover", "Head", "Controversy", etc.

Before and on up through "Purple Rain", he had always been a cool bad ass artist and had cool ass fans too. He had always been extremely talented but was mainly about throwing down hard with his cold ass musical style of his own. He was mainly funk/rock with an occasional slow jam or two but never too "artsy", never too "deep" and even though he had always been mysterious, he wasn't talking in riddles every time he said something. Not only did he change musicwise but a lot of his new fans were totally different than his previous fans. It kinda reminds me Michael Jackson also. I remember around 1988 or so and "Entertainment Tonight" had done a story about someone from Prince's old neighborhood that said Prince never came around anymore and that he wasn't the same person. Well, I can certainly understand that because why the hell would a major entertainer be coming around and hanging out in a neighborhood that they don't have to be in. But then they showed some of the audience that was outside some arena somewhere going to see a Prince concert and talked to some of them. These were some yuppie looking white kids that had on hoods that look like something monks would wear. They looked absolutely crazy as hell and they talked in all that Princebonic talk that made them sound crazy as hell. It definately reminded me of some loony ass Michael Jackson fans and Lord knows it was a total different audience than back in the day when Prince and Rick James fans were having fun trading insults. It just felt like Prince had gone off to La La Land with those loony toons.

I remember seeing a news report from 1984 when The Jacksons were on the Victory Tour and people from Gary were saying how they should do a show in Gary to put money back into the city and that once Michael got big, he never came back.

Um....He left Gary when he was 10 and permanently when he was 12

he went back to gary in 2003 though, and gave some money to do some sort of community center. they ended up making a film about it, which ended up being released last year.

vainandy said:

When he was a little child back with The Jackson Five, they were huge. They were all over the cereal boxes (I think it was Honey Comb or Alpha Bits), they had a cartoon series on TV, and they had a variety show on TV. They even later became the inspiration for folks like New Edition which later sparked New Kids On The Block.

Then during the disco era, "Shake Your Body Down To The Ground" was big, Michael had also starred in "The Wiz", and when he made "Off The Wall", it was absolutely huge. "Triumph" was even moderately successful and his siblings Jermaine and Latoya had even branched out on their own and Janet had already been on "Good Times" and "Different Strokes" which she probably would not have landed if she had not been a part of the Jackson family.

Michael already had made a big impact. The thing is that "Thriller" was so damn unusually hugely successful that it put him on a level where his albums that followed it would never top it but still be huge selling albums that far topped the sales of the albums prior to "Thriller". Actually, music as a whole by other artists would have been better off in the long run if "Thriller" had never happened because everybody kept watering their music down trying to get some of those diverse sales that "Thriller" had. But yes, Michael Jackson had already made a major impact before "Thriller". "Thriller" just upped the sales expectations as to what is considered "successful".

they had one of those cardboard cutout records with super sugar crisp too... they were one of the major product placement groups, from post to pepsi...

[Edited 4/5/11 2:48am]

Many of us who grew up in Brooklyn, New York in the early to mid-80's didn't have cable or satellite.... yet, he was still the biggest thing in the world in our eyes. We'd see an occasional video on a video program, but it wasn't like having MTV...which I didn't have until my family moved South in 1990.

My mom still has the Off The Wall record on vinyl, which she used to listen to constantly before Thriller. This, in addition to all the Motown 45's.

One of my fondest memories though is sitting on the floor in my parent's bedroom at 5 or 6 years old watching that Motown special with them--mesmorized by Michael's performance, which was highly anticipated! That moment he did the moonwalk was one of the biggest 'HOLY CRAP!' moments I can remember. If DVR existed in those days, we would have watched it and re-watched it a million times.

If I'm being honest, I think MTV did probably expose him to more people and put him and his music into even more households. It certainly aided in his success... but, it's hard to gauge, because radio was still very important in those days too. He made great records and a variety of stations played them.

As someone already said, Michael was someone who had 'it' from a very early age. He definitely was a child prodigy.

He had 'soul' yeah, but that's not it. Have you seen that kid sing!?!?!?! Have you seen how they reacted to him as an 11 year old? Did you see any 'Triumph' tour performances!? He was huge before Thriller!

When Thriller came along something happened commercially that nobody can really put their finger on. Maybe it was the videos that did it, but to ponder when someone said 'MJ influenced the impact of music video more than the music video impacted his career' (or something similar) is true.

Have you seen what 'videos' were before Michael said 'Forget that, let's do this...'. He totally changed *EVERYTHING*. It was *him* that did that to music video, then music video gave him everything back. He changed that which made him bigger. It worked. But he was still a big deal before that.

(Wow, can't believe I'm having to say this lol)

Graycap23 said:

babynoz said:

Gray, you KNOW I luv ya like a play-cousin but you gotta stop the PWI, (posting while intoxicated),

J/K

Let me explain.

I used 2 see Mj quite a bit here and there pre Thriller and he was a well known celeb, but a "normal" celeb. He could go out in public and he would be treated like any other celeb. He had a very nice solo career.

After the success of Thriller he was on a level probably NEVER seen in the music business pre-Thriller. He could NOT go in public the same way as he could before. His concerts were on a completely level and fans just seem 2 go "crazy" after his success with Thriller. Do u understand what I'm saying?

Not exactly true. Janet even confirmed in her new book that, when Off The Wall came out, his days of going out in public without bodyguards were over. Of course Thriller was a success beyond measure and compare, but he was already legendary before it. Off The Wall is iconic in and of itself, and do you think many other artists at the time would have had the clout to pull together a $1 million video?

Vainandy and Timmy84 are correct. Michael Jackson's success came in waves. When he was a little kid, the Jackson5 were HUGE. When he was a teenager, he became a teen idol, along with Donny Osmond, and inspired a huge wave of "family" groups. As a young adult, he and his family were all over Saturday morning television and had their own variety television show. Then "Off the Wall" became the first HUGE solo album of his career.

Thriller benefited greatly from "Off the Wall's" success. The videos took an artist that was already a superstar and incredibly popular, and elevated him into the world's first international superstar.

Michael Jackson was able to hit superstar-level fame and popularity several times in his career. Thriller was just an important link in an already long chain of success.

So to answer the question, without the videos, MJ was already considered an icon, greater than the child and teen stars that preceded him and full of incredible promise.

After the Thriller album and videos, Michael exceeded everyone's expectations and cemented his place in world history.

Alasseon said:

Vainandy and Timmy84 are correct. Michael Jackson's success came in waves. When he was a little kid, the Jackson5 were HUGE. When he was a teenager, he became a teen idol, along with Donny Osmond, and inspired a huge wave of "family" groups. As a young adult, he and his family were all over Saturday morning television and had their own variety television show. Then "Off the Wall" became the first HUGE solo album of his career.

Thriller benefited greatly from "Off the Wall's" success. The videos took an artist that was already a superstar and incredibly popular, and elevated him into the world's first international superstar.

Michael Jackson was able to hit superstar-level fame and popularity several times in his career. Thriller was just an important link in an already long chain of success.

So to answer the question, without the videos, MJ was already considered an icon, greater than the child and teen stars that preceded him and full of incredible promise.

After the Thriller album and videos, Michael exceeded everyone's expectations and cemented his place in world history.

Sounds good 2 me.

MJJstudent said:

Timmy84 said:

Off the Wall sold 5 million copies by 1982. Prior to that, not a single album by a best-selling R&B artist sold that much, the biggest was Stevie's Songs in the Key of Life and when Thriller was released, the best-selling album of all time had sold 14 million (Saturday Night Live). Think about it for a minute...

saturday night fever, tim...

Girl... I KNOW THAT... why did I type "LIVE"?!

I think some are grasping for straws because they fail to explain how Mike "didn't make that much impact". I don't know what else you want, man. You're on your own here...

Graycap23 said:

Mj did NOT blow up, until Thriller and the video era.

You know what I think is kinda funny? The kind of 'blowing up' that you are referring to was the kind of 'blowing up' that was defined by Michael Jackson's career during the Thriller era. It is generally understood that MJ was already pretty big during the Off The Wall era, but during the Thriller era he kind of redefined how successful a solo artist could be and it sent his star into another orbit. His level of success at that time has become the benchmark to which everyone else is compared to, and even he, himself later down in his career.

It is constantly repeated that he experienced a huge success with Off The Wall, it's just that whatever success he had with it was eclipsed by Thriller as well as everything else he ever did afterwards it seems...depending where in the world you go though. =/

Was it just the music videos that were responsible for that? I don't think so, but I think that they also played a significant part into it.

Have you never been around any younger children in your entire life? They can barely wipe their asses, let alone performing in night/strip clubs entertaining grown ass drunk adults.

novabrkr said:

There were millions of people of all ages that played his music all the time in their houses. Not everyone had an access to video channels in the 1980s, because you had to have cable TV. In fact, I didn't see "Thriller" myself until 1993. I think it's fair to say that his music - the melodies, the rhythms, what was essential MJ'ish about them - made a huge impact on people. It shaped up people's tastes and even the way they perceive music in general.

A senior musicologist once told me that he had traveled to the deepest of Amazon to make recordings of the songs the shamans living there were using during their rituals. To his amazement he found out that many of the songs were songs by Michael Jackson, but they had just changed the words. I'm pretty sure those guys didn't have cable TV.

oooooh...funny how people made these things up...in this case it's easy becuz it's hard 4 general people 2 check it out. I've worked in "the deepest amazon" 4 9 years with almost evey tribe there in a Medical Care program 4 natives and I can tell u, they have their own culture, and it's very rich and unique. It's been explored be4 for bands like Sepultura, a brazilian metal band in their best album called "Roots". I can tell u 4 sure, there's no MJ influence in those tribes...I actually laughed my ass out when I read that. But, that doesn't mean that MJ didn't have a great impact on the music/culture though, I believe that he did.

P.S.: oh, and I'm not saying that U novabrkr made it up...but whoever who told U, just 2 let it clear...not personal.

[Edited 4/5/11 8:38am]

I see they put up a nice statue of MJ in China after he died. I'll bet not many American rock stars will have statues dedicated to them in China. If any.

I'm not sure they showed his videos. And as far as i know, he never went there!

That's a star. Right there.