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Reply #210 posted 07/03/17 1:09pm

Vashtix

LBrent said:

Honestly...

I thought The Time was more like lowkey pimps...the Stacey Adams, walking cane, the vain personas, the conked hair, the throne MD sat on, the clean suits and the "valet"...blatant politically incorrect exploitation and disregard for and objectifying of females as possessions and as disposable and merely for sexual gratification, not for anything involving intelligence or opinion...Pimps also recognize a complicated heirarchy of the women...the number 1 woman and the rest of the stable are not equal...

.

UTCM the guys were gigolos, which was different because THEY were the objectified ones as sexual objects that could be bought for wealthy/powerful women's pleasure, generally not valued for their intelligence or opinions...all the female patrons are in power over the gigolo, he has not true power...

.

And I can't speak to anyone else's experience with this but in my NY area a player would be more of an every day sorta gut who THINKS he's a pimp, and may approach many women, but also sees himself as a gigolo and assumes any woman in the vicinity wants him...But he also may recognize the value of other traits a woman may possess besides sexual...the power dynamic is fluid within this relationship structure...often the woman has power that she is unaware of and the player is more vulnerable than they let on...

.

neutral

[Edited 7/3/17 8:32am]

Yep total Pimp culture.

You explained it well . . . .

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Reply #211 posted 07/03/17 4:33pm

LBrent

Vashtix said:

LBrent said:

Honestly...

I thought The Time was more like lowkey pimps...the Stacey Adams, walking cane, the vain personas, the conked hair, the throne MD sat on, the clean suits and the "valet"...blatant politically incorrect exploitation and disregard for and objectifying of females as possessions and as disposable and merely for sexual gratification, not for anything involving intelligence or opinion...Pimps also recognize a complicated heirarchy of the women...the number 1 woman and the rest of the stable are not equal...

.

UTCM the guys were gigolos, which was different because THEY were the objectified ones as sexual objects that could be bought for wealthy/powerful women's pleasure, generally not valued for their intelligence or opinions...all the female patrons are in power over the gigolo, he has not true power...

.

And I can't speak to anyone else's experience with this but in my NY area a player would be more of an every day sorta gut who THINKS he's a pimp, and may approach many women, but also sees himself as a gigolo and assumes any woman in the vicinity wants him...But he also may recognize the value of other traits a woman may possess besides sexual...the power dynamic is fluid within this relationship structure...often the woman has power that she is unaware of and the player is more vulnerable than they let on...

.

neutral

[Edited 7/3/17 8:32am]

Yep total Pimp culture.

You explained it well . . . .

I may or may not have an uncle or 2 who fit this description...allegedly...possibly...

boxed

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Reply #212 posted 07/03/17 4:59pm

Vashtix

LBrent said:

Vashtix said:

Yep total Pimp culture.

You explained it well . . . .

I may or may not have an uncle or 2 who fit this description...allegedly...possibly...

boxed

No shame ; I also know the culture . . . a little . . . . cool

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Reply #213 posted 07/03/17 5:16pm

purplegirl00

Vashtix said:

LBrent said:

I may or may not have an uncle or 2 who fit this description...allegedly...possibly...

boxed

No shame ; I also know the culture . . . a little . . . . cool

Agree- no shame. Had one or two of those in my circle of family. I remember one driving in around in one of those big 70's hoopty cars with at least two women at a time. confused In my Sophia Petrillo voice- "Picture it.. 1980 in the Bronx". lol

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Reply #214 posted 07/03/17 5:30pm

LBrent

lol

I'm not really ashamed of them...(although, lawd knows somebody oughta be...cuz they are scandalous...)

But the box thing seemed like a funny closure...so I couldn't resist...

Hehehe

wink cool

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Reply #215 posted 07/03/17 7:22pm

Vashtix

purplegirl00 said:

Vashtix said:

No shame ; I also know the culture . . . a little . . . . cool

Agree- no shame. Had one or two of those in my circle of family. I remember one driving in around in one of those big 70's hoopty cars with at least two women at a time. confused In my Sophia Petrillo voice- "Picture it.. 1980 in the Bronx". lol

lol

I am picturing it!

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Reply #216 posted 07/03/17 7:24pm

Vashtix

LBrent said:

lol

I'm not really ashamed of them...(although, lawd knows somebody oughta be...cuz they are scandalous...)

But the box thing seemed like a funny closure...so I couldn't resist...

Hehehe

wink cool

cool

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Reply #217 posted 07/03/17 7:27pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah You tried to define Players as a certain way... go back and read what YOU said and posted.
Christopher & Tricky were 'Players' and they contradicted YOUR definition.

AND in discussing the Time, I pointed out songs that contradicted YOUR definintion of the box you placed the Time in. They were were not just gigaloes. And they contemplated life.

I know what players are on their face. You are using a fictional movie which had nothing do with the original concept of the Time at all as some sort of example of how these characters were not just Gigolos and that is fine for Under The Cherry Moon which has nothing to do with the original characters for the Time.

In fact I remember a few people saying that the Morris character was Prince when he was in playboy mode because Prince had a player side to his personality which is very different from a professional Gigolo.

Giogolo's do not send women down the hall as gifs but players and rock stars do.

yes, If we were just talking about a general conversation of 'players and Gigolos' then we wouldn't be disagreeing.
.
But the Time can easily sing songs like Hot Thang, Movie Star, Pop Life(everybody needs a thrill)

.

But all of this concerning the Time(the protege vision) UTCM is all 'fictional' it is made up characters. Morris Day is not a gigolo

.

You are making this all up as you go. When was that? 30+ years ago.
No Players Keep the women. But what you keep talking about with sending someone down the hall as a gift (IE GROUPIES) is no different than any Junior High High School College pranks that guy and girls do to each other.

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the matter with your world
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Reply #218 posted 07/06/17 3:57am

Vashtix

OldFriends4Sale said:

luvgirl said:

OldFriends4Sale said: Wow, I didn't know that. Can you share what you read or tell me where to find what Lisa said about Vanity?

Yes, I'll scan through my stuff

These pics never get old for me. I wish we had more of them together and side by side they do not look so alike.

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Reply #219 posted 07/06/17 5:10am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Vashtix said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes, I'll scan through my stuff

These pics never get old for me. I wish we had more of them together and side by side they do not look so alike.

U lost me Vashtix??

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the matter with your world
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Reply #220 posted 07/06/17 11:38am

Vashtix

OldFriends4Sale said:



Vashtix said:




OldFriends4Sale said:





Yes, I'll scan through my stuff





These pics never get old for me. I wish we had more of them together and side by side they do not look so alike.




U lost me Vashtix??


The pics of Vanity and Appolonia never get old and side by side they do not look
so much alike
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Reply #221 posted 07/06/17 12:55pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Vashtix said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

U lost me Vashtix??

The pics of Vanity and Appolonia never get old and side by side they do not look so much alike

Oh ok

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the matter with your world
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Reply #222 posted 07/07/17 5:58pm

luvgirl

laurarichardson said:

Vashtix said:



I read the book.
So yeah I think Alex Hahn was not truthful.

--Alex was on Facebook asking for information and people complained before about being misquoted by him. You cannot take what he had to say seriously as all he had to do was read Dez's book.



There is another book out there that touches on this story of the band turning on Vanity because of the tour bus situation and other issues. It also touched on how Prince and Vanity both had a part in the beginning outline of Purple Rain. The book mentioned Prince carrying around a purple notebook that they would write in when they were on the tour bus together. Does anyone remember what book this is? I read it early 2016 after Prince's passing, but I cannot remember the name of it. I usually document all the book's I've read for the year on Goodreads, but I wasn't keeping track the way I should have in the early days of Prince passing away. If anyone remembers what book I'm speaking of, I'd appreciate it... beg
[Edited 7/7/17 21:54pm]
I just want you here, I just want you near me baby, cause I'm scared I'll cry, I love you like crazy.
~RIP~
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Reply #223 posted 07/08/17 12:20pm

cloveringold85

avatar

Interesting. I never knew Dez felt that way about Vanity (Denise). Not really shocking to me though, because Prince was ever-evolving and worked with so many people over the years; it's really hard to keep track! He was deeply in love with Vanity and she was obviously a huge inspriation to him; they shared a strong bond. Unfortunately this happens quite a lot in bands; people get hurt. I'm sure Prince made some decisions in the past that he regretted. Such is life.

"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016)
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Reply #224 posted 07/16/17 4:57pm

Toban

luvgirl said:

Here are my thoughts: How could Dez Blame it on Vanity? (Pun intended lol) Prince was a big boy and the one who was hell bent on having Vanity in his life and making her a star. He was the one who pursued her until she caved and moved to Minneapolis to date and collaborate with him. He was the one that chose to exclude the band from riding with him on his tour bus. As stated in his book, "Prince suddenly stopped traveling with the band and got his own private bus where he, Vanity, Chick and fragnoli would travel on it, while the rest of the band stayed together on the other bus. (A) This did little but create another reason to grumble, (B) and an unrestricted place to grumble in." Clearly Prince's decision... It was also his decision to feature her on the cover of Rolling Stone instead of the band, and his choice to share the spotlight with her at the AMA. It was even his choice as a man to spend time and be closer with one of his girlfriends than he was with his bandmates, and to help her with her dream of becoming a star... I doubt anyone including Vanity could have manipulated Prince into doing anything he didn't want to do. What little credit Dez gave him... And how dare Dez put such a blame on her! I came to the realization that this is the reason why none of Prince's former associates ever had anything nice to say about Vanity in all those books that are out there. Instead they try to belittle her as much as possible. From the band with Dez, down to the Revolutions, Susan Rogers, Roy Bennett, and even Matt Fink tried to put her down saying "The Vanities and the Apollonias bothered me, I thought he could be producing extremely talented people, not people who were there for their looks rather than their singing.” I always wondered why none of his associates seemed to like her. Now I think I understand. They were envious of the close attention that Prince allotted to her and judged her unfairly because of it. They thought she didn't deserve it, but they never gave the girl a chance. Even after she proved herself. I can only imagine the antipathy she was subjected to when on top of all this, Prince made her the female lead in purple Rain as well. (Jill Jones comment comes to mind about the jealousy she saw that was directed at Vanity from all quarters.) For one of her rivals to admit that was powerful... People can try to belittle her all they want, but even though I agree that one of the reasons Prince situated Vanity around him musically was because he wanted her in his life as a lover, I don't doubt the fact that Prince was moved by her charisma and saw star potential within her that he knew would galvanize the masses. Which it did.... Prince was justified when she took America by storm with her beauty and the hit Nasty Girl and had people like Berry Gordy and others in the entertainment industry vying for her attention. He succeeded in his endouver to make her a star, which is more than a lot of the people who try to put her down can say... She succeeded as well on her own, doing cult classic movies like "The Last Dragon", "Never Too Young To Die" and much more before fame got the best of her and she walked away from it all. Roy Bennett mentioned in Alex Hahn's book that Prince was supposedly closer with Susan Moonsie than with Vanity. Knowing the animosity most felt about her from that era, and with the kind of uproar she caused in the band - along with her admission that her and Prince were so close it was frightening - and Prince's own admission on how much they used to love each other, I seriously doubt Roy Bennett's statement... It's interesting that Dez would also go on to state that Roy's wife Brenda Bennett from Vanity Six did not get along with Vanity at all. At one point it even turned to physical violence. Roy Bennett's statement could have easily been colored by his wife's influence. I can't help but feel like everyone's view of Vanity is tainted with malice from back then, if Dez's admission in this book is any indication...eek [Edited 7/5/17 8:27am]

Wow!!! This explains a lot.

Riiiiight...

Okay, let's say no one knew what Prince was putting Denise through. She then gets pointed at blamed for it his decisions as result, and for 4 decades no one has been defending her. What was the excuse after she left? Oh yeah, she was called names and blamed for causing that chaos too. But at the same time she was also just some drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition or notice in books about him.

.

These band members watched Prince play Denise. Knowing he had a woman back home in MN in early 1982 while Denise was coming to see him at rehearsals and concerts. They watch her fall for him and fall in love with him.

I'm certain they all knew Prince's plan before Denise did.

I'm certain from the first moment they saw her, they all knew she was the one to be able to front Prince's dream of a sexy all girl group.

They had no problem with the success, just with who appeared to receive extra credit.

That iconic Rolling Stone Cover was shockingly brilliant marketing and advertising.

Before Prince met her, on Denise's pictures alone a film was sold to European distributors before the film was made.

Dez with Prince on the cover or Vanity with Prince, hmmmm.

[Edited 7/17/17 19:52pm]

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Reply #225 posted 07/16/17 6:20pm

CyndiGR

Prince had this vision of what he wanted, and that became reality. There were a great many super talented musicians playing with him at various points of his life.. they were awesome and some totally amazing (John Blackwell) but at the end of the day it was Prince's vision, determination, artistic genius, creative acumen... that kept the 'machine' running at top form. He chose who he wanted and, for all intents and purposes, whoever was fortunate enough to be picked to share that billing with him, experienced a great ryde.

I understand where Dez Dickerson could feel hurt but it seems that Prince was in control and managing the affairs as he saw fit. It's human nature to want to blame someone for something. Dez wants to blame Vanity.. it's his choice. He's hurting about that album cover and other situations. I guess the point is, is that we've all got to rise to the occasion and see beyond our own egos.. That can be really hard to do, but that's life, isn't it?

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Reply #226 posted 07/16/17 6:49pm

Vashtix

Toban said:

luvgirl said:

Here are my thoughts: How could Dez Blame it on Vanity? (Pun intended lol) Prince was a big boy and the one who was hell bent on having Vanity in his life and making her a star. He was the one who pursued her until she caved and moved to Minneapolis to date and collaborate with him. He was the one that chose to exclude the band from riding with him on his tour bus. As stated in his book, "Prince suddenly stopped traveling with the band and got his own private bus where he, Vanity, Chick and fragnoli would travel on it, while the rest of the band stayed together on the other bus. (A) This did little but create another reason to grumble, (B) and an unrestricted place to grumble in." Clearly Prince's decision... It was also his decision to feature her on the cover of Rolling Stone instead of the band, and his choice to share the spotlight with her at the AMA. It was even his choice as a man to spend time and be closer with one of his girlfriends than he was with his bandmates, and to help her with her dream of becoming a star... I doubt anyone including Vanity could have manipulated Prince into doing anything he didn't want to do. What little credit Dez gave him... And how dare Dez put such a blame on her! I came to the realization that this is the reason why none of Prince's former associates ever had anything nice to say about Vanity in all those books that are out there. Instead they try to belittle her as much as possible. From the band with Dez, down to the Revolutions, Susan Rogers, Roy Bennett, and even Matt Fink tried to put her down saying "The Vanities and the Apollonias bothered me, I thought he could be producing extremely talented people, not people who were there for their looks rather than their singing.” I always wondered why none of his associates seemed to like her. Now I think I understand. They were envious of the close attention that Prince allotted to her and judged her unfairly because of it. They thought she didn't deserve it, but they never gave the girl a chance. Even after she proved herself. I can only imagine the antipathy she was subjected to when on top of all this, Prince made her the female lead in purple Rain as well. (Jill Jones comment comes to mind about the jealousy she saw that was directed at Vanity from all quarters.) For one of her rivals to admit that was powerful... People can try to belittle her all they want, but even though I agree that one of the reasons Prince situated Vanity around him musically was because he wanted her in his life as a lover, I don't doubt the fact that Prince was moved by her charisma and saw star potential within her that he knew would galvanize the masses. Which it did.... Prince was justified when she took America by storm with her beauty and the hit Nasty Girl and had people like Berry Gordy and others in the entertainment industry vying for her attention. He succeeded in his endouver to make her a star, which is more than a lot of the people who try to put her down can say... She succeeded as well on her own, doing cult classic movies like "The Last Dragon", "Never Too Young To Die" and much more before fame got the best of her and she walked away from it all. Roy Bennett mentioned in Alex Hahn's book that Prince was supposedly closer with Susan Moonsie than with Vanity. Knowing the animosity most felt about her from that era, and with the kind of uproar she caused in the band - along with her admission that her and Prince were so close it was frightening - and Prince's own admission on how much they used to love each other, I seriously doubt Roy Bennett's statement... It's interesting that Dez would also go on to state that Roy's wife Brenda Bennett from Vanity Six did not get along with Vanity at all. At one point it even turned to physical violence. Roy Bennett's statement could have easily been colored by his wife's influence. I can't help but feel like everyone's view of Vanity is tainted with malice from back then, if Dez's admission in this book is any indication...eek [Edited 7/5/17 8:27am]

Wow!!! This explains a lot.

Riiiiight...

Okay, let's say no one knew what Prince was putting Denise through. She then gets pointed at blamed for it his decisions as result, and for 4 decades no one has been defending her. What was the excuse after she left? Oh yeah, she was called names and blamed for causing that chaos too. But at the same time she was also just some drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition or notice in books about him.

.

These band members watched Prince play Denise. Knowing he had a woman back home in MN in early 1983 while Denise was coming to see him at rehearsals and concerts. They watch her fall for him and fall in love with him.

I'm certain they all knew Prince's plan before Denise did.

I'm certain from the first moment they saw her, they all knew she was the one to be able to front Prince's dream of a sexy all girl group.

They had no problem with the success, just with who appeared to receive extra credit.

That iconic Rolling Stone Cover was shockingly brilliant marketing and advertising.

Before Prince met her, on Denise's pictures alone a film was to European distributors before the film was made.

Dez with Prince on the cover or Vanity with Prince, hmmmm.

This is why I side eye them on their accounts because she is always Yoko Ono'd so to speak. I do not get the resentment they have for her. Prince was a genius with getting her; she caused so much interest him. Being able to have a woman as gorgeous as her to introduce him to many on that Rolling Stone Cover was genius.

.

I did not know he had a woman in Minnesota in 1983. I am so backwards with dates. I thought he and Susan were over by 1983. Anyway, she really is not validated in a positive way but I believe that is changing since both of their deaths. The Alex Hahn book however did not update anything he wrote about Denise and did not mention her postitively in his most recent addition.

LuvGirl's post is very accurate.

.

I hope many will start speaking truths about Denise to knock down the myths that as you said she was nothing but a drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition. It is infuriating.

.

Denise definitely deserves to be defended, recognized and properly validated for what she brought to the Purple Kingdom.

[Edited 7/16/17 19:39pm]

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Reply #227 posted 07/16/17 7:35pm

purplegirl00

Vashtix said:

Toban said:

Wow!!! This explains a lot.

Riiiiight...

Okay, let's say no one knew what Prince was putting Denise through. She then gets pointed at blamed for it his decisions as result, and for 4 decades no one has been defending her. What was the excuse after she left? Oh yeah, she was called names and blamed for causing that chaos too. But at the same time she was also just some drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition or notice in books about him.

.

These band members watched Prince play Denise. Knowing he had a woman back home in MN in early 1983 while Denise was coming to see him at rehearsals and concerts. They watch her fall for him and fall in love with him.

I'm certain they all knew Prince's plan before Denise did.

I'm certain from the first moment they saw her, they all knew she was the one to be able to front Prince's dream of a sexy all girl group.

They had no problem with the success, just with who appeared to receive extra credit.

That iconic Rolling Stone Cover was shockingly brilliant marketing and advertising.

Before Prince met her, on Denise's pictures alone a film was to European distributors before the film was made.

Dez with Prince on the cover or Vanity with Prince, hmmmm.

This is why I side eye them on their accounts because she is always Yoko Ono'd so to speak. I do not get the resentment they have for her. Prince was a genius with getting her; she caused so much interest him. Being able to have a woman as gorgeous as her to introduce him to many on that Rolling Stone Cover was genius.

I did not know he had a woman in Minnesota in 1983. I am so backwards with dates. I thought he and Susan were over by 1983. Anyway, she really is not validated in a positive way but I believe that is changing since both of their deaths. The Alex Hahn book however did not update anything he wrote about Denise and did not mention her postitively in his most recent addition.

LuvGirl's post is very accurate.

I hope many will start speaking truths about Denise to knock down the myths that as you said she was nothing but a drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition. It is infuriating.

Denise definitely deserves to be defended, recognized and properly validated for what she brought to the Purple Kingdom.

AMEN sister. Preach it. nod

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Reply #228 posted 07/17/17 12:15am

Goddess4Real

avatar

purplegirl00 said:

Vashtix said:

This is why I side eye them on their accounts because she is always Yoko Ono'd so to speak. I do not get the resentment they have for her. Prince was a genius with getting her; she caused so much interest him. Being able to have a woman as gorgeous as her to introduce him to many on that Rolling Stone Cover was genius.

I did not know he had a woman in Minnesota in 1983. I am so backwards with dates. I thought he and Susan were over by 1983. Anyway, she really is not validated in a positive way but I believe that is changing since both of their deaths. The Alex Hahn book however did not update anything he wrote about Denise and did not mention her postitively in his most recent addition.

LuvGirl's post is very accurate.

I hope many will start speaking truths about Denise to knock down the myths that as you said she was nothing but a drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition. It is infuriating.

Denise definitely deserves to be defended, recognized and properly validated for what she brought to the Purple Kingdom.

AMEN sister. Preach it. nod

yeahthat

Keep Calm & Listen To Prince
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Reply #229 posted 07/17/17 7:32pm

luvgirl

Vashtix said:



Toban said:




luvgirl said:


Here are my thoughts: How could Dez Blame it on Vanity? (Pun intended lol) Prince was a big boy and the one who was hell bent on having Vanity in his life and making her a star. He was the one who pursued her until she caved and moved to Minneapolis to date and collaborate with him. He was the one that chose to exclude the band from riding with him on his tour bus. As stated in his book, "Prince suddenly stopped traveling with the band and got his own private bus where he, Vanity, Chick and fragnoli would travel on it, while the rest of the band stayed together on the other bus. (A) This did little but create another reason to grumble, (B) and an unrestricted place to grumble in." Clearly Prince's decision... It was also his decision to feature her on the cover of Rolling Stone instead of the band, and his choice to share the spotlight with her at the AMA. It was even his choice as a man to spend time and be closer with one of his girlfriends than he was with his bandmates, and to help her with her dream of becoming a star... I doubt anyone including Vanity could have manipulated Prince into doing anything he didn't want to do. What little credit Dez gave him... And how dare Dez put such a blame on her! I came to the realization that this is the reason why none of Prince's former associates ever had anything nice to say about Vanity in all those books that are out there. Instead they try to belittle her as much as possible. From the band with Dez, down to the Revolutions, Susan Rogers, Roy Bennett, and even Matt Fink tried to put her down saying "The Vanities and the Apollonias bothered me, I thought he could be producing extremely talented people, not people who were there for their looks rather than their singing.” I always wondered why none of his associates seemed to like her. Now I think I understand. They were envious of the close attention that Prince allotted to her and judged her unfairly because of it. They thought she didn't deserve it, but they never gave the girl a chance. Even after she proved herself. I can only imagine the antipathy she was subjected to when on top of all this, Prince made her the female lead in purple Rain as well. (Jill Jones comment comes to mind about the jealousy she saw that was directed at Vanity from all quarters.) For one of her rivals to admit that was powerful... People can try to belittle her all they want, but even though I agree that one of the reasons Prince situated Vanity around him musically was because he wanted her in his life as a lover, I don't doubt the fact that Prince was moved by her charisma and saw star potential within her that he knew would galvanize the masses. Which it did.... Prince was justified when she took America by storm with her beauty and the hit Nasty Girl and had people like Berry Gordy and others in the entertainment industry vying for her attention. He succeeded in his endouver to make her a star, which is more than a lot of the people who try to put her down can say... She succeeded as well on her own, doing cult classic movies like "The Last Dragon", "Never Too Young To Die" and much more before fame got the best of her and she walked away from it all. Roy Bennett mentioned in Alex Hahn's book that Prince was supposedly closer with Susan Moonsie than with Vanity. Knowing the animosity most felt about her from that era, and with the kind of uproar she caused in the band - along with her admission that her and Prince were so close it was frightening - and Prince's own admission on how much they used to love each other, I seriously doubt Roy Bennett's statement... It's interesting that Dez would also go on to state that Roy's wife Brenda Bennett from Vanity Six did not get along with Vanity at all. At one point it even turned to physical violence. Roy Bennett's statement could have easily been colored by his wife's influence. I can't help but feel like everyone's view of Vanity is tainted with malice from back then, if Dez's admission in this book is any indication...eek [Edited 7/5/17 8:27am]

Wow!!! This explains a lot.


Riiiiight...


Okay, let's say no one knew what Prince was putting Denise through. She then gets pointed at blamed for it his decisions as result, and for 4 decades no one has been defending her. What was the excuse after she left? Oh yeah, she was called names and blamed for causing that chaos too. But at the same time she was also just some drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition or notice in books about him.


.


These band members watched Prince play Denise. Knowing he had a woman back home in MN in early 1983 while Denise was coming to see him at rehearsals and concerts. They watch her fall for him and fall in love with him.


I'm certain they all knew Prince's plan before Denise did.


I'm certain from the first moment they saw her, they all knew she was the one to be able to front Prince's dream of a sexy all girl group.


They had no problem with the success, just with who appeared to receive extra credit.


That iconic Rolling Stone Cover was shockingly brilliant marketing and advertising.


Before Prince met her, on Denise's pictures alone a film was to European distributors before the film was made.


Dez with Prince on the cover or Vanity with Prince, hmmmm.




This is why I side eye them on their accounts because she is always Yoko Ono'd so to speak. I do not get the resentment they have for her. Prince was a genius with getting her; she caused so much interest him. Being able to have a woman as gorgeous as her to introduce him to many on that Rolling Stone Cover was genius.


.


I did not know he had a woman in Minnesota in 1983. I am so backwards with dates. I thought he and Susan were over by 1983. Anyway, she really is not validated in a positive way but I believe that is changing since both of their deaths. The Alex Hahn book however did not update anything he wrote about Denise and did not mention her postitively in his most recent addition.


LuvGirl's post is very accurate.


.


I hope many will start speaking truths about Denise to knock down the myths that as you said she was nothing but a drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition. It is infuriating.


.


Denise definitely deserves to be defended, recognized and properly validated for what she brought to the Purple Kingdom.

[Edited 7/16/17 19:39pm]



I think he means 1982 Vashtix. It was In the beginning before Denise moved to Minneapolis. Susan Moonsie had left Prince in 1982, by the time he was working on the 1999 album as per Jill Jones, and she said Prince had Vanity by then. By 1983 Vanity was touring on the 1999 Triple threat tour.
[Edited 7/17/17 19:36pm]
I just want you here, I just want you near me baby, cause I'm scared I'll cry, I love you like crazy.
~RIP~
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Reply #230 posted 07/17/17 7:34pm

Toban

Vashtix said:

Toban said:

Wow!!! This explains a lot.

Riiiiight...

Okay, let's say no one knew what Prince was putting Denise through. She then gets pointed at blamed for it his decisions as result, and for 4 decades no one has been defending her. What was the excuse after she left? Oh yeah, she was called names and blamed for causing that chaos too. But at the same time she was also just some drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition or notice in books about him.

.

These band members watched Prince play Denise. Knowing he had a woman back home in MN in early 1983 while Denise was coming to see him at rehearsals and concerts. They watch her fall for him and fall in love with him.

I'm certain they all knew Prince's plan before Denise did.

I'm certain from the first moment they saw her, they all knew she was the one to be able to front Prince's dream of a sexy all girl group.

They had no problem with the success, just with who appeared to receive extra credit.

That iconic Rolling Stone Cover was shockingly brilliant marketing and advertising.

Before Prince met her, on Denise's pictures alone a film was to European distributors before the film was made.

Dez with Prince on the cover or Vanity with Prince, hmmmm.

This is why I side eye them on their accounts because she is always Yoko Ono'd so to speak. I do not get the resentment they have for her. Prince was a genius with getting her; she caused so much interest him. Being able to have a woman as gorgeous as her to introduce him to many on that Rolling Stone Cover was genius.

.

I did not know he had a woman in Minnesota in 1983. I am so backwards with dates. I thought he and Susan were over by 1983. Anyway, she really is not validated in a positive way but I believe that is changing since both of their deaths. The Alex Hahn book however did not update anything he wrote about Denise and did not mention her postitively in his most recent addition.

LuvGirl's post is very accurate.

.

I hope many will start speaking truths about Denise to knock down the myths that as you said she was nothing but a drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition. It is infuriating.

.

Denise definitely deserves to be defended, recognized and properly validated for what she brought to the Purple Kingdom.

[Edited 7/16/17 19:39pm]

Sorry... you are correct, it was 1982. I was venting, a bit.

.

Question, does anyone know… Which came first, his desire to create a sexy all-girl singing group or make a movie?

Everyone knows Prince had already began recording songs for an all-girl group before he met Denise. Did he make it known that he also wanted to make a movie prior to meeting Denise.

.

Before meeting Prince Denise had been Miss Canada 1977 when she was 18, she had been a smiling face for a Pearl Drops tooth paste campaign, she had done a stage play, she had been in 3 movies, she had been in Playboy (named by Playboy along with Bo Derek as being one of the sex stars of 1979) and in 1981 she had worked as model in Japan; which is where she first met and dated Adam Ant.

Denise was not hurting for work or movie offers when she met Prince. After meeting him she was off to Switzerland and he was calling.

.

In an article it was reported that “European distributors lined up to purchase a film – even before it had been made – on the basis of D.D.’s (DD Winters/Denise Matthews) charms alone.”

Did Denise show Prince the article before he ask her come to Minneapolis?

Was that the reason she was on the cover of Rolling Stone with him?

Is it too much of a leap to think that she could have been the reason why his movie was approved?

.

If Denise wanted to be a difficult and controlling girlfriend she would have stayed and played a leading role in his movie.

It was killing her to be around him.

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Reply #231 posted 07/17/17 8:01pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Toban said:

Vashtix said:

This is why I side eye them on their accounts because she is always Yoko Ono'd so to speak. I do not get the resentment they have for her. Prince was a genius with getting her; she caused so much interest him. Being able to have a woman as gorgeous as her to introduce him to many on that Rolling Stone Cover was genius.

.

I did not know he had a woman in Minnesota in 1983. I am so backwards with dates. I thought he and Susan were over by 1983. Anyway, she really is not validated in a positive way but I believe that is changing since both of their deaths. The Alex Hahn book however did not update anything he wrote about Denise and did not mention her postitively in his most recent addition.

LuvGirl's post is very accurate.

.

I hope many will start speaking truths about Denise to knock down the myths that as you said she was nothing but a drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition. It is infuriating.

.

Denise definitely deserves to be defended, recognized and properly validated for what she brought to the Purple Kingdom.

[Edited 7/16/17 19:39pm]

Sorry... you are correct, it was 1982. I was venting, a bit.

.

Question, does anyone know… Which came first, his desire to create a sexy all-girl singing group or make a movie?

Everyone knows Prince had already began recording songs for an all-girl group before he met Denise. Did he make it known that he also wanted to make a movie prior to meeting Denise.

.

Before meeting Prince Denise had been Miss Canada 1977 when she was 18, she had been a smiling face for a Pearl Drops tooth paste campaign, she had done a stage play, she had been in 3 movies, she had been in Playboy (named by Playboy along with Bo Derek as being one of the sex stars of 1979) and in 1981 she had worked as model in Japan; which is where she first met and dated Adam Ant.

Denise was not hurting for work or movie offers when she met Prince. After meeting him she was off to Switzerland and he was calling.

.

In an article it was reported that “European distributors lined up to purchase a film – even before it had been made – on the basis of D.D.’s (DD Winters/Denise Matthews) charms alone.”

Did Denise show Prince the article before he ask her come to Minneapolis?

Was that the reason she was on the cover of Rolling Stone with him?

Is it too much of a leap to think that she could have been the reason why his movie was approved?

.

If Denise wanted to be a difficult and controlling girlfriend she would have stayed and played a leading role in his movie.

It was killing her to be around him.

I think it all came around the same time. Or the movie a little before the Hookers. Kim Upsher & Susan Moonsie were in the clips of the 2nd Coming movie. And then Jamie Shoop followed right after...

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the matter with your world
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Reply #232 posted 07/17/17 8:05pm

Toban

Vashtix said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

But I can also understand from Dez view point, how 'distracted' Prince could have been. Dr Fink said something similar.
And I don't think these guys are slouches as far as the music went

.

This all also goes into connection with the Time. If you look at the amount of promotion Vanity 6 got over the Time, it is clearly uneven.

The time were formidable though ; they just had everything. Vanity 6 was not even close to what the time were back then.

yeahthat

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Reply #233 posted 07/17/17 8:08pm

Vashtix

Toban said:

Vashtix said:

This is why I side eye them on their accounts because she is always Yoko Ono'd so to speak. I do not get the resentment they have for her. Prince was a genius with getting her; she caused so much interest him. Being able to have a woman as gorgeous as her to introduce him to many on that Rolling Stone Cover was genius.

.

I did not know he had a woman in Minnesota in 1983. I am so backwards with dates. I thought he and Susan were over by 1983. Anyway, she really is not validated in a positive way but I believe that is changing since both of their deaths. The Alex Hahn book however did not update anything he wrote about Denise and did not mention her postitively in his most recent addition.

LuvGirl's post is very accurate.

.

I hope many will start speaking truths about Denise to knock down the myths that as you said she was nothing but a drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition. It is infuriating.

.

Denise definitely deserves to be defended, recognized and properly validated for what she brought to the Purple Kingdom.

[Edited 7/16/17 19:39pm]

Sorry... you are correct, it was 1982. I was venting, a bit.

.

Question, does anyone know… Which came first, his desire to create a sexy all-girl singing group or make a movie?

Everyone knows Prince had already began recording songs for an all-girl group before he met Denise. Did he make it known that he also wanted to make a movie prior to meeting Denise.

.

Before meeting Prince Denise had been Miss Canada 1977 when she was 18, she had been a smiling face for a Pearl Drops tooth paste campaign, she had done a stage play, she had been in 3 movies, she had been in Playboy (named by Playboy along with Bo Derek as being one of the sex stars of 1979) and in 1981 she had worked as model in Japan; which is where she first met and dated Adam Ant.

Denise was not hurting for work or movie offers when she met Prince. After meeting him she was off to Switzerland and he was calling.

.

In an article it was reported that “European distributors lined up to purchase a film – even before it had been made – on the basis of D.D.’s (DD Winters/Denise Matthews) charms alone.”

Did Denise show Prince the article before he ask her come to Minneapolis?

Was that the reason she was on the cover of Rolling Stone with him?

Is it too much of a leap to think that she could have been the reason why his movie was approved?

.

If Denise wanted to be a difficult and controlling girlfriend she would have stayed and played a leading role in his movie.

It was killing her to be around him.

No apologies in venting . . . I think many of us take turns at venting when it comes to Denise being portrayed like a person who "needed" Prince and had no career prior to him. It is often something of ridicule when mentioned that she was the one that gave up a lot to go to the Prince camp. Clearly she did give up a lot.

.

I did not realize it was killing her to be around him but I sure do understand she sacrificed to join him in Minnesota.

.

Interesting to ponder about her being part of Purple Rain and the approval for the movie. I think many do not want to give Denise her due for her influence during that time. He was not the icon at that time and some forget when she was around he was on the cusp of becoming the icon. I can understand resentment toward her from his camp also due to her influence. The fact she left the Purple Rain project and went on to do her own projects without Prince validates her as a bonafide talent and not just a talentless pretty face Prince discovered.

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Reply #234 posted 07/17/17 8:24pm

Goddess4Real

avatar

Vashtix said:

Toban said:

Sorry... you are correct, it was 1982. I was venting, a bit.

.

Question, does anyone know… Which came first, his desire to create a sexy all-girl singing group or make a movie?

Everyone knows Prince had already began recording songs for an all-girl group before he met Denise. Did he make it known that he also wanted to make a movie prior to meeting Denise.

.

Before meeting Prince Denise had been Miss Canada 1977 when she was 18, she had been a smiling face for a Pearl Drops tooth paste campaign, she had done a stage play, she had been in 3 movies, she had been in Playboy (named by Playboy along with Bo Derek as being one of the sex stars of 1979) and in 1981 she had worked as model in Japan; which is where she first met and dated Adam Ant.

Denise was not hurting for work or movie offers when she met Prince. After meeting him she was off to Switzerland and he was calling.

.

In an article it was reported that “European distributors lined up to purchase a film – even before it had been made – on the basis of D.D.’s (DD Winters/Denise Matthews) charms alone.”

Did Denise show Prince the article before he ask her come to Minneapolis?

Was that the reason she was on the cover of Rolling Stone with him?

Is it too much of a leap to think that she could have been the reason why his movie was approved?

.

If Denise wanted to be a difficult and controlling girlfriend she would have stayed and played a leading role in his movie.

It was killing her to be around him.

No apologies in venting . . . I think many of us take turns at venting when it comes to Denise being portrayed like a person who "needed" Prince and had no career prior to him. It is often something of ridicule when mentioned that she was the one that gave up a lot to go to the Prince camp. Clearly she did give up a lot.

.

I did not realize it was killing her to be around him but I sure do understand she sacrificed to join him in Minnesota.

.

Interesting to ponder about her being part of Purple Rain and the approval for the movie. I think many do not want to give Denise her due for her influence during that time. He was not the icon at that time and some forget when she was around he was on the cusp of becoming the icon. I can understand resentment toward her from his camp also due to her influence. The fact she left the Purple Rain project and went on to do her own projects without Prince validates her as a bonafide talent and not just a talentless pretty face Prince discovered.

yeahthat thumbs up!

Keep Calm & Listen To Prince
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Reply #235 posted 07/17/17 8:31pm

purplegirl00

Vashtix said:

Toban said:

Sorry... you are correct, it was 1982. I was venting, a bit.

.

Question, does anyone know… Which came first, his desire to create a sexy all-girl singing group or make a movie?

Everyone knows Prince had already began recording songs for an all-girl group before he met Denise. Did he make it known that he also wanted to make a movie prior to meeting Denise.

.

Before meeting Prince Denise had been Miss Canada 1977 when she was 18, she had been a smiling face for a Pearl Drops tooth paste campaign, she had done a stage play, she had been in 3 movies, she had been in Playboy (named by Playboy along with Bo Derek as being one of the sex stars of 1979) and in 1981 she had worked as model in Japan; which is where she first met and dated Adam Ant.

Denise was not hurting for work or movie offers when she met Prince. After meeting him she was off to Switzerland and he was calling.

.

In an article it was reported that “European distributors lined up to purchase a film – even before it had been made – on the basis of D.D.’s (DD Winters/Denise Matthews) charms alone.”

Did Denise show Prince the article before he ask her come to Minneapolis?

Was that the reason she was on the cover of Rolling Stone with him?

Is it too much of a leap to think that she could have been the reason why his movie was approved?

.

If Denise wanted to be a difficult and controlling girlfriend she would have stayed and played a leading role in his movie.

It was killing her to be around him.

No apologies in venting . . . I think many of us take turns at venting when it comes to Denise being portrayed like a person who "needed" Prince and had no career prior to him. It is often something of ridicule when mentioned that she was the one that gave up a lot to go to the Prince camp. Clearly she did give up a lot.

.

I did not realize it was killing her to be around him but I sure do understand she sacrificed to join him in Minnesota.

.

Interesting to ponder about her being part of Purple Rain and the approval for the movie. I think many do not want to give Denise her due for her influence during that time. He was not the icon at that time and some forget when she was around he was on the cusp of becoming the icon. I can understand resentment toward her from his camp also due to her influence. The fact she left the Purple Rain project and went on to do her own projects without Prince validates her as a bonafide talent and not just a talentless pretty face Prince discovered.

The masses were looking forward to seeing Vanity in Purple Rain, especially after that Rolling Stone cover. The chemistry was hot between them and you could see it. That was a large part of the draw. When she left Prince and the movie, the replacement had to fit, at the very least, in appearance to not disappoint. How many women auditioned for the role? Many from what I read, almost to the point of giving up. So yes, she had influence. Even today when people talk about Purple Rain, still Vanity comes up. She is forever tied to that movie although she wasn't in it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that speaks huge volumes on her influence.

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Reply #236 posted 07/17/17 8:32pm

Toban

OldFriends4Sale said:

Toban said:

Sorry... you are correct, it was 1982. I was venting, a bit.

.

Question, does anyone know… Which came first, his desire to create a sexy all-girl singing group or make a movie?

Everyone knows Prince had already began recording songs for an all-girl group before he met Denise. Did he make it known that he also wanted to make a movie prior to meeting Denise.

.

Before meeting Prince Denise had been Miss Canada 1977 when she was 18, she had been a smiling face for a Pearl Drops tooth paste campaign, she had done a stage play, she had been in 3 movies, she had been in Playboy (named by Playboy along with Bo Derek as being one of the sex stars of 1979) and in 1981 she had worked as model in Japan; which is where she first met and dated Adam Ant.

Denise was not hurting for work or movie offers when she met Prince. After meeting him she was off to Switzerland and he was calling.

.

In an article it was reported that “European distributors lined up to purchase a film – even before it had been made – on the basis of D.D.’s (DD Winters/Denise Matthews) charms alone.”

Did Denise show Prince the article before he ask her come to Minneapolis?

Was that the reason she was on the cover of Rolling Stone with him?

Is it too much of a leap to think that she could have been the reason why his movie was approved?

.

If Denise wanted to be a difficult and controlling girlfriend she would have stayed and played a leading role in his movie.

It was killing her to be around him.

I think it all came around the same time. Or the movie a little before the Hookers. Kim Upsher & Susan Moonsie were in the clips of the 2nd Coming movie. And then Jamie Shoop followed right after...

Wow!!!

The man knew talent when he heard it and when he saw it.

The manipulation bugs the hell out of... but you can't fault his artistic vision and drive to succeed.

.

So this was the plan that everyone knew about when Denise was been pursed and brought then in.

Actually... you know something? The way she first mentions the movie, she speaks of it as if were always part of a plan she had known about. Her contract might contridict this but it is possible.

Very interesting.

.

Prince was no idiot, people should stop blaming Vanity.

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Reply #237 posted 07/17/17 8:37pm

luvgirl

purplegirl00 said:



Vashtix said:




Toban said:



Sorry... you are correct, it was 1982. I was venting, a bit.


.


Question, does anyone know… Which came first, his desire to create a sexy all-girl singing group or make a movie?


Everyone knows Prince had already began recording songs for an all-girl group before he met Denise. Did he make it known that he also wanted to make a movie prior to meeting Denise.


.


Before meeting Prince Denise had been Miss Canada 1977 when she was 18, she had been a smiling face for a Pearl Drops tooth paste campaign, she had done a stage play, she had been in 3 movies, she had been in Playboy (named by Playboy along with Bo Derek as being one of the sex stars of 1979) and in 1981 she had worked as model in Japan; which is where she first met and dated Adam Ant.


Denise was not hurting for work or movie offers when she met Prince. After meeting him she was off to Switzerland and he was calling.


.


In an article it was reported that “European distributors lined up to purchase a film – even before it had been made – on the basis of D.D.’s (DD Winters/Denise Matthews) charms alone.”


Did Denise show Prince the article before he ask her come to Minneapolis?


Was that the reason she was on the cover of Rolling Stone with him?


Is it too much of a leap to think that she could have been the reason why his movie was approved?


.


If Denise wanted to be a difficult and controlling girlfriend she would have stayed and played a leading role in his movie.


It was killing her to be around him.




No apologies in venting . . . I think many of us take turns at venting when it comes to Denise being portrayed like a person who "needed" Prince and had no career prior to him. It is often something of ridicule when mentioned that she was the one that gave up a lot to go to the Prince camp. Clearly she did give up a lot.


.


I did not realize it was killing her to be around him but I sure do understand she sacrificed to join him in Minnesota.


.


Interesting to ponder about her being part of Purple Rain and the approval for the movie. I think many do not want to give Denise her due for her influence during that time. He was not the icon at that time and some forget when she was around he was on the cusp of becoming the icon. I can understand resentment toward her from his camp also due to her influence. The fact she left the Purple Rain project and went on to do her own projects without Prince validates her as a bonafide talent and not just a talentless pretty face Prince discovered.





The masses were looking forward to seeing Vanity in Purple Rain, especially after that Rolling Stone cover. The chemistry was hot between them and you could see it. That was a large part of the draw. When she left Prince and the movie, the replacement had to fit, at the very least, in appearance to not disappoint. How many women auditioned for the role? Many from what I read, almost to the point of giving up. So yes, she had influence. Even today when people talk about Purple Rain, still Vanity comes up. She is forever tied to that movie although she wasn't in it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that speaks huge volumes on her influence.



yeahthat I was one of the masses... Along with every single one of my friends.
I just want you here, I just want you near me baby, cause I'm scared I'll cry, I love you like crazy.
~RIP~
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Reply #238 posted 07/17/17 9:07pm

Goddess4Real

avatar

Vashtix said:

Toban said:

Wow!!! This explains a lot.

Riiiiight...

Okay, let's say no one knew what Prince was putting Denise through. She then gets pointed at blamed for it his decisions as result, and for 4 decades no one has been defending her. What was the excuse after she left? Oh yeah, she was called names and blamed for causing that chaos too. But at the same time she was also just some drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition or notice in books about him.

.

These band members watched Prince play Denise. Knowing he had a woman back home in MN in early 1983 while Denise was coming to see him at rehearsals and concerts. They watch her fall for him and fall in love with him.

I'm certain they all knew Prince's plan before Denise did.

I'm certain from the first moment they saw her, they all knew she was the one to be able to front Prince's dream of a sexy all girl group.

They had no problem with the success, just with who appeared to receive extra credit.

That iconic Rolling Stone Cover was shockingly brilliant marketing and advertising.

Before Prince met her, on Denise's pictures alone a film was to European distributors before the film was made.

Dez with Prince on the cover or Vanity with Prince, hmmmm.

This is why I side eye them on their accounts because she is always Yoko Ono'd so to speak. I do not get the resentment they have for her. Prince was a genius with getting her; she caused so much interest him. Being able to have a woman as gorgeous as her to introduce him to many on that Rolling Stone Cover was genius.

.

I did not know he had a woman in Minnesota in 1983. I am so backwards with dates. I thought he and Susan were over by 1983. Anyway, she really is not validated in a positive way but I believe that is changing since both of their deaths. The Alex Hahn book however did not update anything he wrote about Denise and did not mention her postitively in his most recent addition.

LuvGirl's post is very accurate.

.

I hope many will start speaking truths about Denise to knock down the myths that as you said she was nothing but a drugged out sex pot not worth a footnote of recognition. It is infuriating.

.

Denise definitely deserves to be defended, recognized and properly validated for what she brought to the Purple Kingdom.

[Edited 7/16/17 19:39pm]

yeahthat

Keep Calm & Listen To Prince
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Reply #239 posted 07/17/17 9:09pm

Goddess4Real

avatar

Toban said:

Prince was no idiot, people should stop blaming Vanity.

nod

[Edited 7/17/17 21:10pm]

Keep Calm & Listen To Prince
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