namepeace said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

yeah i know... i had a chuckle... was it the Simpsons that made the joke about when a show says the name of the show?

That was Family Guy. It was funny.

ahh yes...

OnlyNDaUsa said:

214 said:

This time around, they crossed the line, it was far too explicit, it was too much for me. i can't believe that bastard killed Glenn, was a shock.

come on we all knew this was coming... and there have been plenty of just as gross things in the show before.

(in the following the use of YOU is in general for people mad that the show is not for kids)

what is funny is how some silly parent group is all it a tizz over this! Huh.... if you do not know by now what the show is, if you ignored the full screen warning, if you ignored the rating box, if you were not monitoring what your kids watch, if you chose to NOT block that show, channel, or shows with the MA ratings... and your kid watched the show! That is YOUR FAULT!

You won't tell me how raise my kids,bitch... ohh wait, wait i don't have children. Ok go on.

djThunderfunk said:

I'm curious what they've been watching for six years. THIS is the show. It's also the source material.

Anybody acting all shocked and/or disgusted just now must not have been paying attention.

I know,but this episode was a step too far, to me it was worse than any other before.

djThunderfunk said:

ufoclub said:

I've watched the entire series so far, and this was by far the most violent and disturbing event in the series (yes I know they matched the comics). But it also out does any Scorcese movie and most movies for me too (of course there is "Irreversible"... shudder... and also "Trouble Every Day".... double shudder)

The reason that it's more intense: The acting and filmmaking was top notch, and the roots of the scene go back to season 1 (the relationship between the two characters, the romance). I can't tell you how good I think the direction and acting was. It's tough faking that kind of intensity in that kind of contrived fictional situation.

So, I think what some people are wondering, is; what is the worth of this comic and show in terms of human culture... is it good entertainment or is it the modern equivalent of Roman collosseum spectacles of human suffering? Remember, at one time that was mainstream entertainment for the people!

At the end of the day, this is a horror show about people trying to survive in a post-zombie apocalypse. Not the kind of entertainment most people who are looking for "culture" go to. No?

That said, the show is much deeper than those labels I used and in my opinion does have something to offer in terms of the characters struggling with humanity, and how it applies it this world in which they inhabit. These kind of shocking moments set up the stakes for the characters and should be expected from the genre. They've had these moments before and they will again. Anybody who can't stand to see their favorite character brutally killed off shouldn't watch anyway.

You're right, the show goes beyond the zombie apocalypse, it's about human's struggles and how they face those struggles.

214 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

come on we all knew this was coming... and there have been plenty of just as gross things in the show before.

(in the following the use of YOU is in general for people mad that the show is not for kids)

what is funny is how some silly parent group is all it a tizz over this! Huh.... if you do not know by now what the show is, if you ignored the full screen warning, if you ignored the rating box, if you were not monitoring what your kids watch, if you chose to NOT block that show, channel, or shows with the MA ratings... and your kid watched the show! That is YOUR FAULT!

You won't tell me how raise my kids,bitch... ohh wait, wait i don't have children. Ok go on.

they were saying that because they pay for cable they are paying for this show... well damn if it means that much too you cancel your cable...

214 said:

djThunderfunk said:

I'm curious what they've been watching for six years. THIS is the show. It's also the source material.

Anybody acting all shocked and/or disgusted just now must not have been paying attention.

I know,but this episode was a step too far, to me it was worse than any other before.

May I ask, In what way is it "worse"? Are you referring to who was killed? How they were killed? Or the relentless terror that Negan inflicted on Rick and the group, which didn't let up until he was sure that he had "broken" Rick?

We've seen much gore & brutality prior to this. We've had shocking deaths. We've had extreme depravity. In what way did this specific episode cross the line for you?

I'm asking in all sincerity. I have trouble seeing how anyone who made it this far would be surprised at anything in this episode and am curious as to your answer.

http://filmsfilmsfilms.co...6-10-25-95

Added some words to my website on the premiere episode ... enjoy!

OnlyNDaUsa said:

214 said:

You won't tell me how raise my kids,bitch... ohh wait, wait i don't have children. Ok go on.

they were saying that because they pay for cable they are paying for this show... well damn if it means that much too you cancel your cable...

Shut up already.

djThunderfunk said:

214 said:

I know,but this episode was a step too far, to me it was worse than any other before.

May I ask, In what way is it "worse"? Are you referring to who was killed? How they were killed? Or the relentless terror that Negan inflicted on Rick and the group, which didn't let up until he was sure that he had "broken" Rick?

We've seen much gore & brutality prior to this. We've had shocking deaths. We've had extreme depravity. In what way did this specific episode cross the line for you?

I'm asking in all sincerity. I have trouble seeing how anyone who made it this far would be surprised at anything in this episode and am curious as to your answer.

The heads getting smashed and the Glenn's eye, i don't know it was way too shockin.

djThunderfunk said:

214 said:

djThunderfunk said:

May I ask, In what way is it "worse"? Are you referring to who was killed? How they were killed? Or the relentless terror that Negan inflicted on Rick and the group, which didn't let up until he was sure that he had "broken" Rick?

We've seen much gore & brutality prior to this. We've had shocking deaths. We've had extreme depravity. In what way did this specific episode cross the line for you?

I'm asking in all sincerity. I have trouble seeing how anyone who made it this far would be surprised at anything in this episode and am curious as to your answer.

The heads getting smashed and the Glenn's eye, i don't know it was way too shockin.

It sounds to me like your specifically refering to the explicit gore of the visuals.

However, as someone who has viewed hundreds of horror movies I guess I'm decensitized because I've seen much worse. Also I've read the source material and was totally expecting it.
I dunno, I still think if you watch horror made for adults you can expect that kind of thing.
If they had punked out and the scene was not as brutal as the comics not only would fans of horror in general and the books specifically felt cheated, but also the episode would not have had the impact that it needed going forward.

Thanks for your answer. I've noticed multiple complaints going around, just trying to narrow it all down.

I was saddened and angered by this episode I don't watch alot of TV these days,but 'The Walking Dead' is one show that I am truly hooked on! Can't wait to see what happens next

ufoclub said:

djThunderfunk said:

May I ask, In what way is it "worse"? Are you referring to who was killed? How they were killed? Or the relentless terror that Negan inflicted on Rick and the group, which didn't let up until he was sure that he had "broken" Rick?

We've seen much gore & brutality prior to this. We've had shocking deaths. We've had extreme depravity. In what way did this specific episode cross the line for you?

I'm asking in all sincerity. I have trouble seeing how anyone who made it this far would be surprised at anything in this episode and am curious as to your answer.

That's still talking about it within the fiction as if the characters are real. The question critics are asking would be more like; did the creators, writers, and filmmakers exhibit too much depravity in seeking this kind of experience on the viewer? Did they inflict too much relentless terror on the children and mild horror fans that watch the show on TV? The people that watch more for the bonding between characters, not the horror. Is this actually offering any kind of insight into human condition. Note, this part in question had nothing to do with supernatural conceptual zombie lore, it was the conclusion of a relationship they built up since season 1 through writing and production of scenes to seed an emotion on the audience. It is kind of the same thing as questioning that old notorious website rotten.com in terms of is it ethical? Is it entertainment? Human suffering has a long history of being presented as entertainment, so it's not new. I think the term was a passion play... a story that envoked the passions... normally through gore and suffering ands angst.

Great discussion! I'll try (and probably fail) not to go into TLDR territory, but there's so much to address here...

The show is an adaption. Some elements stray greatly from the source material but overall, the comics are a blueprint for the arcs of the seasons. This episode adapts the pivotal issue #100 which is a major turning point in the book, upping the stakes and setting the stage for the next couple of years of comics (and probably the next couple seasons of shows). In the interest of avoiding potential spoilers I won't get specific, but I will say I agree with the creators that it was essential that the events play out as they did. I would even argue that it needed to be as brutal as it was for the impact that will resonate as the story progresses. Anything less would have cheated fans by watering it down.

On the surface, as a horror show, TWD does not owe it to it's audience to offer insight to the human condition. That said, it brilliantly does so anyway. And in the long run, the impact of this episode will be a cornerstone of the story doing just that as it moves forward. As I mentioned before, this is a turning point that will drive the story going forward.

This is not about the suffering, this is about how the characters overcome it. And that is not a story to be told in a single episode.

As for the ethics of inflicting too much relentless terror on children and mild horror fans...
Wow! I don't know if I can discuss that opinion without laughing at it or getting angry about it, but I'll try to be civil...

My honest feelings is to say fk the children and mild horror fans. There's plenty of watered down PG-13 "horror" out there for those that can't handle this kind of thing. There were proper warnings preceding the episode... I just don't see this being a valid complaint at all. This show is NEVER for children and "mild horror fans" that ignore the warnings get what they deserve. Sorry if I'm too mean on this point, but, for realz?!?

I don't watch a rom-com and complain that it's too mushy.

Seriously though, ufoclub, I'm enjoying this discussion, hope I'm not coming across as an ass...

djThunderfunk said:

ufoclub said:

djThunderfunk said:

It sounds to me like your specifically refering to the explicit gore of the visuals.

However, as someone who has viewed hundreds of horror movies I guess I'm decensitized because I've seen much worse. Also I've read the source material and was totally expecting it.
I dunno, I still think if you watch horror made for adults you can expect that kind of thing.
If they had punked out and the scene was not as brutal as the comics not only would fans of horror in general and the books specifically felt cheated, but also the episode would not have had the impact that it needed going forward.

Thanks for your answer. I've noticed multiple complaints going around, just trying to narrow it all down.

It's not about the gore which is normally very exaggerated and fake on the show with it's digital splashes and endless creative zombie designs. It's about starting an an epic scene with these two characters (and the third red head who got his own episode with the uniform bit) years ago, and then ending that same scene this way. People are wondering if they really need to be subjected through that. Same judgement as the Roman Colosseum except this is make believe. But the emotions they sought to evoke are real and similar to the trauma of watching real execution videos, but even worse; They created the illusion that viewers knew and respected and even loved the characters. Then the creators killed them this way in their fictional invention. Now realize I'm a filmmaker who has killed characters in my work since I was in elementary school, so I'm just really curious about how this is going to play out in pop culture and changing public taste in what they will accept at mainstream.

It all hinges on this being a turning point in the story going forward. This is the beginning of an arc (or 2) not the end of what has come before.

Don't be to quick to blame the filmmakers. They're not making this up as they go along, this if from the comics they are adapting. Blame Kirkman!

Seriously though, there was just as much anger in the letters pages of the comic when this happened as there is about the show so I don't know why I'm surprised.

I'll flip this and say that if the TV creators had changed things based on thinking as you've mentioned and softened this episode, it would completely strip the episode of having the impact necessary to go from where it's been to where it's going.

If they watered it down to gain or keep people that aren't down for the brutality of Kirkman's story then they would lose fans of the comics and fans that are all in for adult horror.

ufoclub said:

djThunderfunk said:

It sounds to me like your specifically refering to the explicit gore of the visuals.

However, as someone who has viewed hundreds of horror movies I guess I'm decensitized because I've seen much worse. Also I've read the source material and was totally expecting it.
I dunno, I still think if you watch horror made for adults you can expect that kind of thing.
If they had punked out and the scene was not as brutal as the comics not only would fans of horror in general and the books specifically felt cheated, but also the episode would not have had the impact that it needed going forward.

Thanks for your answer. I've noticed multiple complaints going around, just trying to narrow it all down.

It's not about the gore which is normally very exaggerated and fake on the show with it's digital splashes and endless creative zombie designs. It's about starting an an epic scene with these two characters (and the third red head who got his own episode with the uniform bit) years ago, and then ending that same scene this way. People are wondering if they really need to be subjected through that. Same judgement as the Roman Colosseum except this is make believe. But the emotions they sought to evoke are real and similar to the trauma of watching real execution videos, but even worse; They created the illusion that viewers knew and respected and even loved the characters. Then the creators killed them this way in their fictional invention. Now realize I'm a filmmaker who has killed characters in my work since I was in elementary school, so I'm just really curious about how this is going to play out in pop culture and changing public taste in what they will accept at mainstream.

I think that depends on what you class as mainstream. TWD is probably the most popular piece of zombie film fiction there has been, but its still genre specific and so are its fans. The large office where I work, only a couple of genre fans like me watch it; the 'normal' folk who live on soap-operas and reality TV don't go near it.

And as for how scenes like the Glenn death will 'play out', its not much different to the hoo-hah kicked up years ago by the likes of The Exorcist (masturbating with a crucifix, probably still extreme if filmed today), Last House On The Left, the video nasties, the outcry on violent 90s video games, the 'torture porn' of the late noughties ... none of that really changed people or their attitudes. I think overall people still have the same values now as they did thirty/forty years ago as to what they deem acceptable in art.

Boundaries will get prodded and poked a little (like Glenn's death has done) but we're not suddenly going to see hardcore f*cking on breakfast TV or regularly baseball head smashings at Sunday teatime. I can't see that there will ever be a time when that's acceptable through changing public tastes.

DaveT said:

ufoclub said:

djThunderfunk said: It's not about the gore which is normally very exaggerated and fake on the show with it's digital splashes and endless creative zombie designs. It's about starting an an epic scene with these two characters (and the third red head who got his own episode with the uniform bit) years ago, and then ending that same scene this way. People are wondering if they really need to be subjected through that. Same judgement as the Roman Colosseum except this is make believe. But the emotions they sought to evoke are real and similar to the trauma of watching real execution videos, but even worse; They created the illusion that viewers knew and respected and even loved the characters. Then the creators killed them this way in their fictional invention. Now realize I'm a filmmaker who has killed characters in my work since I was in elementary school, so I'm just really curious about how this is going to play out in pop culture and changing public taste in what they will accept at mainstream.

I think that depends on what you class as mainstream. TWD is probably the most popular piece of zombie film fiction there has been, but its still genre specific and so are its fans. The large office where I work, only a couple of genre fans like me watch it; the 'normal' folk who live on soap-operas and reality TV don't go near it.

And as for how scenes like the Glenn death will 'play out', its not much different to the hoo-hah kicked up years ago by the likes of The Exorcist (masturbating with a crucifix, probably still extreme if filmed today), Last House On The Left, the video nasties, the outcry on violent 90s video games, the 'torture porn' of the late noughties ... none of that really changed people or their attitudes. I think overall people still have the same values now as they did thirty/forty years ago as to what they deem acceptable in art.

Boundaries will get prodded and poked a little (like Glenn's death has done) but we're not suddenly going to see hardcore f*cking on breakfast TV or regularly baseball head smashings at Sunday teatime. I can't see that there will ever be a time when that's acceptable through changing public tastes.

Well said. Obviously I think the brutality of this episode is acceptable for adult horror. I would also find it acceptable for adult crime/drama (like say Breaking Bad). I might find it shocking in an unexpected genre (like maybe a dark comedy), but acceptable if the rating was appropriate. But, I would never see this kind of thing being acceptable in a PG-13 or lower rating of ANY genre.

djThunderfunk said:

214 said:

The heads getting smashed and the Glenn's eye, i don't know it was way too shockin.

It sounds to me like your specifically refering to the explicit gore of the visuals.

However, as someone who has viewed hundreds of horror movies I guess I'm decensitized because I've seen much worse. Also I've read the source material and was totally expecting it.
I dunno, I still think if you watch horror made for adults you can expect that kind of thing.
If they had punked out and the scene was not as brutal as the comics not only would fans of horror in general and the books specifically felt cheated, but also the episode would not have had the impact that it needed going forward.

Thanks for your answer. I've noticed multiple complaints going around, just trying to narrow it all down.

That's what i'm talkin about, i just don't get used to it, hope i never will.

DaveT said:

ufoclub said:

djThunderfunk said: It's not about the gore which is normally very exaggerated and fake on the show with it's digital splashes and endless creative zombie designs. It's about starting an an epic scene with these two characters (and the third red head who got his own episode with the uniform bit) years ago, and then ending that same scene this way. People are wondering if they really need to be subjected through that. Same judgement as the Roman Colosseum except this is make believe. But the emotions they sought to evoke are real and similar to the trauma of watching real execution videos, but even worse; They created the illusion that viewers knew and respected and even loved the characters. Then the creators killed them this way in their fictional invention. Now realize I'm a filmmaker who has killed characters in my work since I was in elementary school, so I'm just really curious about how this is going to play out in pop culture and changing public taste in what they will accept at mainstream.

I think that depends on what you class as mainstream. TWD is probably the most popular piece of zombie film fiction there has been, but its still genre specific and so are its fans. The large office where I work, only a couple of genre fans like me watch it; the 'normal' folk who live on soap-operas and reality TV don't go near it.

And as for how scenes like the Glenn death will 'play out', its not much different to the hoo-hah kicked up years ago by the likes of The Exorcist (masturbating with a crucifix, probably still extreme if filmed today), Last House On The Left, the video nasties, the outcry on violent 90s video games, the 'torture porn' of the late noughties ... none of that really changed people or their attitudes. I think overall people still have the same values now as they did thirty/forty years ago as to what they deem acceptable in art.

Boundaries will get prodded and poked a little (like Glenn's death has done) but we're not suddenly going to see hardcore f*cking on breakfast TV or regularly baseball head smashings at Sunday teatime. I can't see that there will ever be a time when that's acceptable through changing public tastes.

I hope so, cuase here in Mexico we have those kind of scenes like the Glenn's one but in real life on the news, like almost everyday.

214 said:

djThunderfunk said:

It sounds to me like your specifically refering to the explicit gore of the visuals.

However, as someone who has viewed hundreds of horror movies I guess I'm decensitized because I've seen much worse. Also I've read the source material and was totally expecting it.
I dunno, I still think if you watch horror made for adults you can expect that kind of thing.
If they had punked out and the scene was not as brutal as the comics not only would fans of horror in general and the books specifically felt cheated, but also the episode would not have had the impact that it needed going forward.

Thanks for your answer. I've noticed multiple complaints going around, just trying to narrow it all down.

That's what i'm talkin about, i just don't get used to it, hope i never will.

Fair enough. If that's the case, my advice would be to not watch the show. I would also avoid most adult horror, or at least research the contents before watching.

djThunderfunk said:

214 said:

That's what i'm talkin about, i just don't get used to it, hope i never will.

Fair enough. If that's the case, my advice would be to not watch the show. I would also avoid most adult horror, or at least research the contents before watching.

Nah, it was a shock but already happened i love the show no matter what, i love Game Of Thrones which itself it's quite violentand explicit, but i love the both of them.

214 said:

djThunderfunk said:

Fair enough. If that's the case, my advice would be to not watch the show. I would also avoid most adult horror, or at least research the contents before watching.

Nah, it was a shock but already happened i love the show no matter what, i love Game Of Thrones which itself it's quite violentand explicit, but i love the both of them.

Okay. Good luck. As long as you know what you're getting into. I love GOT too! Both are shows where it's dangerous to have a favorite character though, that's for sure. Having not read the books, the Red Wedding & Prince Oberon's fate were a punch in the gut for me.

Just leaked, an alternative scene. I'm not sure if it was filmed to detract from internet leaks, or if it was a possible killing instead of Glenn. Seems Abe was still going to be done with.

TrivialPursuit said:

Just leaked, an alternative scene. I'm not sure if it was filmed to detract from internet leaks, or if it was a possible killing instead of Glenn. Seems Abe was still going to be done with.

I heard they filmed multple bashings so that not even the cast knew who it was. Steven Yeun explained on the Talking Dead how he was the only one who knew for a long time and it got a bit mentally draining having to keep it a secret. I think the rest of the cast found out once the script for Season 7, Episode 1 was given to them.

I'm interested to see if they release the rest of the scenes that were filmed. If they did a Daryl, Rick or Carl death scene, they would be intriguing to see ... especially Ricks!

214 said:

DaveT said:

I think that depends on what you class as mainstream. TWD is probably the most popular piece of zombie film fiction there has been, but its still genre specific and so are its fans. The large office where I work, only a couple of genre fans like me watch it; the 'normal' folk who live on soap-operas and reality TV don't go near it.

And as for how scenes like the Glenn death will 'play out', its not much different to the hoo-hah kicked up years ago by the likes of The Exorcist (masturbating with a crucifix, probably still extreme if filmed today), Last House On The Left, the video nasties, the outcry on violent 90s video games, the 'torture porn' of the late noughties ... none of that really changed people or their attitudes. I think overall people still have the same values now as they did thirty/forty years ago as to what they deem acceptable in art.

Boundaries will get prodded and poked a little (like Glenn's death has done) but we're not suddenly going to see hardcore f*cking on breakfast TV or regularly baseball head smashings at Sunday teatime. I can't see that there will ever be a time when that's acceptable through changing public tastes.

I hope so, cause here in Mexico we have those kind of scenes like the Glenn's one but in real life on the news, like almost everyday.

That's what I find truly sad, that there's actually stuff like that going on in real life, shown on the 6 o'clock news and people don't bat an eyelid. They'd rather write in and complain to a TV company for airing fictional violence late at night, but they won't right to the government about images of Syria getting bombed or stabbings on the street.

It's a mad world...

Dam think I need to go into therapy after watching that episode

DaveT said:

I heard they filmed multple bashings so that not even the cast knew who it was. Steven Yeun explained on the Talking Dead how he was the only one who knew for a long time and it got a bit mentally draining having to keep it a secret. I think the rest of the cast found out once the script for Season 7, Episode 1 was given to them.

I'm interested to see if they release the rest of the scenes that were filmed. If they did a Daryl, Rick or Carl death scene, they would be intriguing to see ... especially Ricks!

I doubt they ever filmed a Rick scene. And actually, any other death scene could have been seen in the show already. Rick had flashes of everyone dying when he was fighting zombies outside the RV.

I saw Talking Dead. I don't normally watch it all the time, but that night I made sure to. I'm not big on buying DVDs anymore, but it would be interesting to see if those other scenes are included.

kpowers said:

Dam think I need to go into therapy after watching that episode

There's a sticky for that: http://prince.org/msg/7/433154

TrivialPursuit said:

DaveT said:

I heard they filmed multple bashings so that not even the cast knew who it was. Steven Yeun explained on the Talking Dead how he was the only one who knew for a long time and it got a bit mentally draining having to keep it a secret. I think the rest of the cast found out once the script for Season 7, Episode 1 was given to them.

I'm interested to see if they release the rest of the scenes that were filmed. If they did a Daryl, Rick or Carl death scene, they would be intriguing to see ... especially Ricks!

I doubt they ever filmed a Rick scene. And actually, any other death scene could have been seen in the show already. Rick had flashes of everyone dying when he was fighting zombies outside the RV.

I saw Talking Dead. I don't normally watch it all the time, but that night I made sure to. I'm not big on buying DVDs anymore, but it would be interesting to see if those other scenes are included.

Good point, I noticed they used quick flashes of everyone getting bashed ... presume that was from the extended versions of each character getting killed. The only dvd I was tempted by was season 6 just to see the uncut version of the Negan intro but that leaked on YouTube little while back so probably won't get that now.

I don't normally bother with TD either ... they never seem to have a proper discussion of what works and what doesn't work on the show ... just seems to be Chris Hardwick noshing off the writers and actors for half an hour. He might well be a genuine super fan, but laying in to people who raise genuine criticism is a bit of a douche move in my book. The extended one this week was good though, nice to see the whole cast together chatting.

DaveT said:

Good point, I noticed they used quick flashes of everyone getting bashed ... presume that was from the extended versions of each character getting killed. The only dvd I was tempted by was season 6 just to see the uncut version of the Negan intro but that leaked on YouTube little while back so probably won't get that now.

If you want that uncut version of Negan do NOT buy the DVD. I did and still haven't seent that extra because it's only on the blu-ray!! Bullshit move to make it a blu exclusive and screw the fans that paid good money for the standard DVD version. There is plenty of room on the DVD to include it so this isn't about a blu having more room for it. It's soley about giving a bonus to the blu customers. For what? Spending $5 more? For that $5 they get HD quality, they shouldn't get extra premium content unless there is a practical reason of DVD space limitations and that is clearly NOT the case in this instant...

Rant over. Sorry, still a sore spot for me. Be glad you weren't around when I was watching the DVDs and realized it.