EmmaMcG said:

breakdown2k14 said:

Anybody gonna spend $130 to own batman vs superman? https://www.amazon.com/gp...FY7810J26S [Edited 3/31/16 14:37pm]

My favorite Lex Luthors (I liked Kevin Spacey as well)

EmmaMcG said:

RodeoSchro said:

I've read way too many negative reviews on this, including one with every spoiler there is. And they all have one common complaint - this movie is not fun.

You know, there's a reason why these characters are called SUPERheroes. They are SUPER. They are BETTER. That means in all areas, not just in their physical traits. They are more moral, more upbeat, more upstanding, more EVERYTHING that is better. That's what makes them SUPERheroes.

Superman does not commit murder. Batman does not commit murder. The title of this movie might have the names "Batman" and "Superman" in it, but the characters are not Superman and Batman.

Pass.

Superman doesn't kill anyone in this movie that we see. He puts some guy through a wall so we can assume that guy is PROBABLY dead but it's never explicitly stated Superman kills him. And as for Batman killing some people, he has been known to kill villains in the comics before. The no killing rule is fairly recent in Batman mythology. There was one comic where he used a machine gun. Michael Keaton's Batman killed more people than the Joker did. Ben Afflecks Batman is the best live action Batman I've ever seen. Take into consideration the context of his character. He's old, bitter, pissed off. Robin is dead, Barbara Gordon is crippled (though her scenes were cut from the final edit) and to top it off, Superman has shown up and Bruce Wayne thinks his arrival could lead to millions of deaths. As for the movie being "not fun", that depends on your definition of fun. I find it fun to watch Batman snap people's arms and beat them to a pulp. There's not much comedy here, true, but I'd take this over Joel Schumacher's "fun" movies any day.

Thank you! Enough with the fun & kiddie shit. I'm so glad these superhero films are more "adult" - that's what I want to see, superheroes whipping ass and killing if necessary. None of that 1960s or Joel Schumacher Batman crap.

That's why I love Frank Miller - his "DKR" got me interested in the character again.

kpowers said:

breakdown2k14 said:

EmmaMcG said:

kpowers said:

My favorite Lex Luthors (I liked Kevin Spacey as well)

The Smallville Lex??? Over the one from the Dean Cain show??? I loved that guy. I loved Dean Cain too. I still do.

Hell yeah!!!!!!!!!!!! Never could get into Lois & Clark

kpowers said:

breakdown2k14 said:

kpowers said:

Hell yeah!!!!!!!!!!!! Never could get into Lois & Clark

The only reason I watched Lois & Clark was to see TERI HATCHER she was stunning back in the day!

Yeah me too. Would watch a little of the show when Teri Hatcher was on. Would lose intrest after awhile then ended up watching something else. Only watched the first 3 episodes from start to finish. Just didn't care for it.

Youtube movie reviewer hits the nail right on the nail, when it comes to my feelings on this movie.

[Edited 3/31/16 17:36pm]

kpowers said:

kpowers said:

kpowers said:

My favorite Lex Luthors (I liked Kevin Spacey as well)

Mine too....he is a very good actor.

And Tom Welling is still my favorite Superman since Chris Reeve.

babynoz said:

kpowers said:

My favorite Lex Luthors (I liked Kevin Spacey as well)

Mine too....he is a very good actor.

And Tom Welling is still my favorite Superman since Chris Reeve.

The Smallville cast was great. Tom Welling was excellent as Superman. The above ^^^actor who played Lex and the actor who played Lionel Luther were, too.

daingermouz2020 said:

EmmaMcG said:

babynoz said:

kpowers said:

My favorite Lex Luthors (I liked Kevin Spacey as well)

Mine too....he is a very good actor.

And Tom Welling is still my favorite Superman since Chris Reeve.

I know. How can any one pick Lex from Lois & Clark over Lex from Smallville (sorry EmmaMcG)

purplethunder3121 said:

babynoz said:

Mine too....he is a very good actor.

And Tom Welling is still my favorite Superman since Chris Reeve.

The Smallville cast was great. Tom Welling was excellent as Superman. The above ^^^actor who played Lex and the actor who played Lionel Luther were, too.

Yes great casting, Lana Lang even his parents the Kents. However didn't really care for Lois Lane. And yes EmmaMcG Teri Hatcher was the better Lois Lane,

breakdown2k14 said:

kpowers said:

kpowers said:

EmmaMcG said:

JediMaster said:

Well, it's true that all the film versions have done this (I don't recall Bale's version doing so, but I'll take your word for it), but that doesn't mean it's okay. That was my biggest complaint about the Burton films as well, because it is a KEY component of Batman, throughout most of his history. To me, it's like not having Superman fly, or Spider-Man not spinning webs (and no, Superman shouldn't kill either).

To put it in different terms, sure...you can do a movie where Freddy Krueger is a Superhero, or Jaws is a dolphin who shoots lazer beams out of his eyes...but should you? At what point is the character on screen NOT the character known and loved by fans? In my mind, and in many others, Batman and Superman are characters that are loved by millions, and looked up to by children. Showing them blowing people away is a betrayal of the core principles those characters have grown to represent.

Bale's Batman basically killed Ra's in Batman Begins and, though I admit the film is not fresh in my memory, he was also responsible for Harvey Dents death in Dark Knight. I get that the version of Batman most people know is one that doesn't kill, but it never made sense to me why he doesn't. Or why it's such a big deal if he does. Isn't he supposed to be an anti hero who many believe to be a criminal? He's a dark character by nature. Nobody complains that Captain America kills 20 people per film in movies that are aimed at younger audiences.

See...this is the problem. Batman has now become an "anti-hero" in the mind of the movie-going public, but he isn't. He is a HERO...a founding member of the Justice League. Yes, he uses fear to intimidate criminals, and he works outside of the law at first (because Gotham is so corrupt), but he is fundamentally about protecting the innocent, and punishing the guilty. He doesn't murder, because that is the line where he would become the thing he hates the most. The fact that the movies have completely ignored this is proof that they don't get the most basic character trait of Batman. Now, it is true that he inadvertantly causes the death of Harvey Dent in Dark Knight, but he doesn't do so deliberately...Harvey dies while Batman is saving Jim Gordon's son. It was outright murder, like we see in BvS. In the case of Ra's...no, he didn't kill him. Ra's created that situation, and Batman flat out tells him "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you". It's a stretch for the character...as the Batman from the comics would have still rescued him, but it's still not murder.

As for Cap, he doesn't kill "20 people per film". Yes, he is shown killing during wartime, but that isn't exactly the same thing, is it? He is also a government sanctioned operative, sent to deal with terrorists and enemies of the state. It's a bit different for that character, by nature. You don't see him taking out muggers by shooting them, or any other acts of vigilante justice. Captain America is a completely different character too. The films have been true to the spirit of that character, and that is why you don't see complaints about it. In the case of Batman, the films are taking a giant crap on a major part of the character. You may not care, since you don't read comics, but to people who do, it isn't cool.

The most recent thing that has illustrated the code characters like Batman use is the second season of Daredevil. Daredevil's code creates conflict for him between The Punisher, Elektra and Stick, since he refuses to use lethal force, while they are more than happy to take out their opponents. It is a core tenant to superheroes, especially characters like Batman and Superman.

To put it into terms that are relatable, imagine a film about Prince that showed him as an atheist who hated music. I know, Prince isn't fictional...but the point I'm making is that, when you KNOW something about the basics of a character or person, seeing them portrayed contrary to that is galling, to say the least.

I'm just going to leave this here:
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/30/superman-and-the-damage-done

JediMaster said:

I'm just going to leave this here:
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/30/superman-and-the-damage-done

What a great article. So great, I didn't mind that it was filled with spoilers even though I haven't seen the movie yet.

I always thought the Captain America films were good, but I'll reassess my opinions of the Superman Returns and Man of Steel movies after reading this. Wow.

sexton said:

JediMaster said:

I'm just going to leave this here:
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/30/superman-and-the-damage-done

What a great article. So great, I didn't mind that it was filled with spoilers even though I haven't seen the movie yet.

I always thought the Captain America films were good, but I'll reassess my opinions of the Superman Returns and Man of Steel movies after reading this. Wow.

I'm glad you enjoyed it! Sorry about the spoilers...I definitely should have warned about that ahead of time!

JediMaster said:

JediMaster said:

I'm just going to leave this here:
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/30/superman-and-the-damage-done

I agree with Sexton. Wow. GREAT article. Thank you for posting it!

EmmaMcG said:

JediMaster said:

See...this is the problem. Batman has now become an "anti-hero" in the mind of the movie-going public, but he isn't. He is a HERO...a founding member of the Justice League. Yes, he uses fear to intimidate criminals, and he works outside of the law at first (because Gotham is so corrupt), but he is fundamentally about protecting the innocent, and punishing the guilty. He doesn't murder, because that is the line where he would become the thing he hates the most. The fact that the movies have completely ignored this is proof that they don't get the most basic character trait of Batman. Now, it is true that he inadvertantly causes the death of Harvey Dent in Dark Knight, but he doesn't do so deliberately...Harvey dies while Batman is saving Jim Gordon's son. It was outright murder, like we see in BvS. In the case of Ra's...no, he didn't kill him. Ra's created that situation, and Batman flat out tells him "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you". It's a stretch for the character...as the Batman from the comics would have still rescued him, but it's still not murder.

As for Cap, he doesn't kill "20 people per film". Yes, he is shown killing during wartime, but that isn't exactly the same thing, is it? He is also a government sanctioned operative, sent to deal with terrorists and enemies of the state. It's a bit different for that character, by nature. You don't see him taking out muggers by shooting them, or any other acts of vigilante justice. Captain America is a completely different character too. The films have been true to the spirit of that character, and that is why you don't see complaints about it. In the case of Batman, the films are taking a giant crap on a major part of the character. You may not care, since you don't read comics, but to people who do, it isn't cool.

The most recent thing that has illustrated the code characters like Batman use is the second season of Daredevil. Daredevil's code creates conflict for him between The Punisher, Elektra and Stick, since he refuses to use lethal force, while they are more than happy to take out their opponents. It is a core tenant to superheroes, especially characters like Batman and Superman.

To put it into terms that are relatable, imagine a film about Prince that showed him as an atheist who hated music. I know, Prince isn't fictional...but the point I'm making is that, when you KNOW something about the basics of a character or person, seeing them portrayed contrary to that is galling, to say the least.

I see where you're coming from and I see your point about the difference between Captain America and Batman. Captain America is a soldier so he would be expected to kill, especially when coming up against terrorists. But the modern set movies aren't during any World War(watch those movies again and count how many people he kills. Its a lot). But let's pretend for a second that Batman was real. Coming up against a group of guys who are carrying guns and looking to kill him, I could forgive Batman for killing a few of them. Obviously I wouldn't think it was ok if he was killing them for the sake of it. But in self defence, I could let it slide. There's no point in the movie where he kills unarmed men. I don't agree with some reviews I've seen where they complain about Batman being a serial killer. He's not exactly John Mcclane. But I suppose you (and many others) have your own history with the characters and your own ideas of what they should and shouldn't be doing. I'm not trying to convince you to like this new version. I can't find any fault in any of the points you made but I do prefer this new version of Batman over any other (with the exception of the animated series version). Though I do think Batman would be looking at some serious jail time for deliberately leaving Ra's to die. LOL

For me, it really isn't a matter of whether or not Batman is morally right or not to kill. If he were real, faced with such things he'd probably be morally in the right...although he'd also be in need of some serious mental help! I mean, rich guy dresses like a bat and fights crime...he's gotta be almost as crazy as the villains he fights! my objection is more based on what is consistent with the character in the source material. It's akin to someone making a Harry Potter movie where he uses science instead of magic!

If you get a chance, watch the Netflix Daredevil. The Punisher in the second season is probably the most "realistic" comic character adapted to screen. Daredevil's code against killing is similar to Batman's, and it is illustrated well in that series how it clashes with more zealous vigilantes without such a moral issue. I think you'd enjoy it!

RodeoSchro said:

JediMaster said:

I'm just going to leave this here:
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/30/superman-and-the-damage-done

I agree with Sexton. Wow. GREAT article. Thank you for posting it!

Really glad y'all enjoyed it! I really dug it as well, and it beautifully summed up a lot of issues I had with the treatment of the characters in BvS.

JediMaster said:

sexton said:

What a great article. So great, I didn't mind that it was filled with spoilers even though I haven't seen the movie yet.

I always thought the Captain America films were good, but I'll reassess my opinions of the Superman Returns and Man of Steel movies after reading this. Wow.

I'm glad you enjoyed it! Sorry about the spoilers...I definitely should have warned about that ahead of time!

It was written well, and makes some legitimate arguments.

Superman simply can't win. Many comic (and movie) fans disdain him for the very reason the author mentions; they don't buy into the Boy Scout image that the author sees as hopeful escapism for a troubled world. Kal-El and Clark Kent became passe. Even Superman: The Movie deals with that in its storylines. Superman Returns is deemed a failure for that reason (among others).

Snyder wasn't the best choice for this franchise, IMO (whole'nother story there). For that matter, maybe Cavill wasn't either (but better choices aren't coming to mind). But I tend to support their general arc with the character.

in Snyder (and Nolan's) arc, Clark spends his whole life hiding his power (much like the mutants in the X-Men universe). Earth's first response was not to marvel at him and accept him (as with the definitive '78 film), but to hunt him down, then give him up as ransom. Before Clark had any time to harness his power and learn and accept his origins, he was thrust into defending the Earth from a company of alien soldiers.

OF COURSE it was going to be messy and brutish with this arc. OF COURSE the Earth would be divided on how to view him. OF COURSE he was going to pick up enormous emotional baggage and be wary of a planet that could wage war on him in an instant. Snyder's take is more a reflection on what Earth does to Kal-El than what Kal-El does for Earth.

I think they needed to take a chance and at least at the box office it's paid off.

[Edited 4/3/16 9:39am]