SantanaMaitreya said:

PatrickS77 said:

EmmaMcG said:

If you subscribe to the logic that Elvis is overrated because he didn't write his own songs then you must also believe that Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross, Elton John, Marvin Gaye and a whole bunch of other music legends are also overrated. Elvis, as an overall entertainer, is one of the best there ever was. His job was to sing and perform and put on a show. And he did those things better than 99.9% of any other performers. So if you think he's overrated then you are either delusional or you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yawn. This is getting boring. I never said that Yes, he was overrated. I said, it's yes and no, depending on how you look at it. I'm shocked that you all are too stupid to get that. And Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross and all the others you mentioned, never got the importance put on them, like they do with Elvis. Also this thread is not about them, it's about Elvis. So really, simmer down with those idiotic comparisons.

Idiotic comparisons? May I remind you that the first post you made on this thread was not about Elvis, but about Michael Jackson. As soon as folks say something about Jacko the all the Jacko fans come in and go all

EmmaMcG said:

onlyforaminute said:

All I've got to say is I love Hound Dog.

Elvis remade the Freddie Bell And The Bellboys version. It was Freddie who changed the lyrics from the original.

Doalwa said:

MickyDolenz said:

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

But look how many I can't stand before Shitney compared to the ones I can't stand after her.

But that "adult contemporary R&B" you're talking about was primarily popular in the early to mid-1980s. As soon as New Jack Swing hit, particularly with the debut albums of Keith Sweat & Al B. Sure! and especially the huge crossover success of Bobby Brown, most of those "adult R&B" artists popularity began to wane. Many of the veteran R&B singers and bands released NJS albums or singles including Whitney. Even Boy George released a New Jack album and the Rolling Stones had Teddy Riley remix one of their singles from that period. I remember the Teddy Riley remix of Jane Child's Don't Wanna Fall In Love got way more airplay on local R&B and pop stations than the original mix. New Jack Swing killed the popularity of R&B bands. Other than maybe Tony! Toni! Toné!, the R&B band was almost non-existant on R&B radio after NJS. Even they had hip hop & New Jack Swing on their records. Hip hop changed R&B, not Whitney. Whitney was an influence on Mariah Carey, but Mariah added more hip hop to her music than Whitney did. TLC albums sold more than any other girls group. Aaliyah & Brandy also had hip hop elements in their music. Whitney might be the influence on contestants on American Idol. But how many of them had a successful music career? Very few.

vainandy said:

I had no idea she had remade the song and now finding this out, I see she was even more tired and boring than I originally imagined her and as for somebody like Celine Dion, hell, that's another problem.

Adult contemporary (previously called "easy listening" or "crooner pop") has been popular in most eras, no matter what the trend sound was. The music magazines like Rolling Stone makes it sound like the 1960s was all British Invasion, Motown, folk rock, psycedelic rock, & hippies. During the popularity of The Beatles, Hello Dolly by Louis Armstrong reached #1. Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass, Johnny Mathis, & Percy Faith had hit albums during the 1960s. The Lawrence Welk Show was in production for 27 years. The Andy Williams Show was on for several years too. One of the biggest selling albums of the 1960s was the soundtrack for The Sound Of Music.

And who disputed that shit hop changed R&B. Oh Lord, I'm very aware of that because shit hop is damn near that only thing that exists anymore. Shitney killed the funk and shit hop buried it.

.

And once again, I'm very well that adult contemporary existed before her. Haven't I said repeatedly that adult contemporary radio is where she belonged and where she should have been played exclusively so she couldn't do any damage? Hell, put her ass over there with the rest of the fuddy duds like Lawrence Welk.

No. Overlooked vocally I feel.

SantanaMaitreya said:

PatrickS77 said:

EmmaMcG said:

If you subscribe to the logic that Elvis is overrated because he didn't write his own songs then you must also believe that Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross, Elton John, Marvin Gaye and a whole bunch of other music legends are also overrated. Elvis, as an overall entertainer, is one of the best there ever was. His job was to sing and perform and put on a show. And he did those things better than 99.9% of any other performers. So if you think he's overrated then you are either delusional or you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yawn. This is getting boring. I never said that Yes, he was overrated. I said, it's yes and no, depending on how you look at it. I'm shocked that you all are too stupid to get that. And Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross and all the others you mentioned, never got the importance put on them, like they do with Elvis. Also this thread is not about them, it's about Elvis. So really, simmer down with those idiotic comparisons.

Idiotic comparisons? May I remind you that the first post you made on this thread was not about Elvis, but about Michael Jackson. As soon as folks say something about Jacko the all the Jacko fans come in and go all

Free2BMe said:

SantanaMaitreya said:

Idiotic comparisons? May I remind you that the first post you made on this thread was not about Elvis, but about Michael Jackson. As soon as folks say something about Jacko the all the Jacko fans come in and go all

Who the fuck is Jacko? Btw, if I’m not mistaken it was Emma who brought Michael Jackson into this thread. Yes, it’s only natural for Michael Jackson fans to comment or correct misinformation and that’s what MJ fans did. Are MJ fans supposed to just sit idly by and meekly accept bullshit and not comment. No other fan base does, why should we. That’s hypocritical and unacceptable.
[Edited 10/9/21 23:44pm]
[Edited 10/9/21 23:51pm]

vainandy said:

And who disputed that shit hop changed R&B. Oh Lord, I'm very aware of that because shit hop is damn near that only thing that exists anymore. Shitney killed the funk and shit hop buried it.

.

And once again, I'm very well that adult contemporary existed before her. Haven't I said repeatedly that adult contemporary radio is where she belonged and where she should have been played exclusively so she couldn't do any damage? Hell, put her ass over there with the rest of the fuddy duds like Lawrence Welk.

But you keep saying Whitney Houston changed R&B, when just right before her Lionel Richie was doing pretty much the same style of music and was a big success at it. He won a Grammy for Album Of The Year before Whitney released her debut album. Her first single was a duet (Hold Me) that was on a Teddy Pendergrass album and it was no different from what she later had on her own album. You're not blaming Teddy for it. Teddy also had In My Time as a single. Same for The Pointer Sisters, they had crossover songs before Whitney (Jump For My Love, Slow Hand, Neutron Dance, Fire, etc.). There was also:

Kool & The Gang (Celebration, Cherish, Joanna, Fresh, etc.)
Stevie Wonder (I Just Called To Say I Love You, Send One Your Love, Ebony And Ivory)

James Ingram (Just Once, One Hundred Ways, Yah Mo B There, What About Me?)

Billy Ocean (Suddenly, Loverboy, Caribbean Queen)

Diana Ross (Missing You, It's My Turn, Endless Love, Why Do Fools Fall In Love)

Jeffrey Osborne (On The Wings Of Love, Stay With Me Tonight, We're Going All The Way).

Whitney's music was no different from any of these acts who got R&B, pop, & adult contemporary hits before her. Her album was not unique to change anything. Anita Baker, René And Angela, Luther Vandross, DeBarge, Kashif, etc. all came out before Whitney and they were doing the "adult R&B". Kashif produced some of Whitney's songs on her debut. Kashif also produced Kenny G.'s earlier records. The first album The Isley Brothers released after they split with Isley Jasper Isley was Masterpiece which came out the same year as Whitney's debut in 1985. It could be a Whitney Houston album. Masterpiece sounded nothing like the previous album Between The Sheets. R&B acts were not the only ones to change their sound in the 1980s to a more adult contemporary style. There was Chicago, REO Speedwagon, Journey, and so on.

EmmaMcG said:

Free2BMe said:

Who the fuck is Jacko? Btw, if I’m not mistaken it was Emma who brought Michael Jackson into this thread. Yes, it’s only natural for Michael Jackson fans to comment or correct misinformation and that’s what MJ fans did. Are MJ fans supposed to just sit idly by and meekly accept bullshit and not comment. No other fan base does, why should we. That’s hypocritical and unacceptable. [Edited 10/9/21 23:44pm] [Edited 10/9/21 23:51pm]

Reply #20

Best ignore the MJ hardliners, they are a special kind of utterly annoying people.

Free2BMe said:

SantanaMaitreya said:

Idiotic comparisons? May I remind you that the first post you made on this thread was not about Elvis, but about Michael Jackson. As soon as folks say something about Jacko the all the Jacko fans come in and go all

Who the fuck is Jacko? Btw, if I’m not mistaken it was Emma who brought Michael Jackson into this thread. Yes, it’s only natural for Michael Jackson fans to comment or correct misinformation and that’s what MJ fans did. Are MJ fans supposed to just sit idly by and meekly accept bullshit and not comment. No other fan base does, why should we. That’s hypocritical and unacceptable.
[Edited 10/9/21 23:44pm]
[Edited 10/9/21 23:51pm]

SantanaMaitreya said:

Free2BMe said:

Who the fuck is Jacko? Btw, if I’m not mistaken it was Emma who brought Michael Jackson into this thread. Yes, it’s only natural for Michael Jackson fans to comment or correct misinformation and that’s what MJ fans did. Are MJ fans supposed to just sit idly by and meekly accept bullshit and not comment. No other fan base does, why should we. That’s hypocritical and unacceptable. [Edited 10/9/21 23:44pm] [Edited 10/9/21 23:51pm]

That's what I mean: it doesn't take much to make a Michael Jackson fan angry. Come on, it's not the end of the world when somebody says something about your hero. And all this Jackson talk ruïns the discussion, because it's not about him. [Edited 10/10/21 8:21am]

Some of those Michael Jackson responses were so childish that the posters should worry that if was still alive he'd invite them over for a "sleepover"

Hamad said:

Me too, the original that is. https://youtu.be/yoHDrzw-RPg

The original was great, and so was Elvis's version

jjhunsecker said:

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

And who disputed that shit hop changed R&B. Oh Lord, I'm very aware of that because shit hop is damn near that only thing that exists anymore. Shitney killed the funk and shit hop buried it.

.

And once again, I'm very well that adult contemporary existed before her. Haven't I said repeatedly that adult contemporary radio is where she belonged and where she should have been played exclusively so she couldn't do any damage? Hell, put her ass over there with the rest of the fuddy duds like Lawrence Welk.

But you keep saying Whitney Houston changed R&B, when just right before her Lionel Richie was doing pretty much the same style of music and was a big success at it. He won a Grammy for Album Of The Year before Whitney released her debut album. Her first single was a duet (Hold Me) that was on a Teddy Pendergrass album and it was no different from what she later had on her own album. You're not blaming Teddy for it. Teddy also had In My Time as a single. Same for The Pointer Sisters, they had crossover songs before Whitney (Jump For My Love, Slow Hand, Neutron Dance, Fire, etc.). There was also:

Kool & The Gang (Celebration, Cherish, Joanna, Fresh, etc.)
Stevie Wonder (I Just Called To Say I Love You, Send One Your Love, Ebony And Ivory)

James Ingram (Just Once, One Hundred Ways, Yah Mo B There, What About Me?)

Billy Ocean (Suddenly, Loverboy, Caribbean Queen)

Diana Ross (Missing You, It's My Turn, Endless Love, Why Do Fools Fall In Love)

Jeffrey Osborne (On The Wings Of Love, Stay With Me Tonight, We're Going All The Way).

Whitney's music was no different from any of these acts who got R&B, pop, & adult contemporary hits before her. Her album was not unique to change anything. Anita Baker, René And Angela, Luther Vandross, DeBarge, Kashif, etc. all came out before Whitney and they were doing the "adult R&B". Kashif produced some of Whitney's songs on her debut. Kashif also produced Kenny G.'s earlier records. The first album The Isley Brothers released after they split with Isley Jasper Isley was Masterpiece which came out the same year as Whitney's debut in 1985. It could be a Whitney Houston album. Masterpiece sounded nothing like the previous album Between The Sheets. R&B acts were not the only ones to change their sound in the 1980s to a more adult contemporary style. There was Chicago, REO Speedwagon, Journey, and so on.

Well, of course I do because I was raised to tell the truth. Are you wanting me to lie?

.

As for the examples of people in the rest of this post, What...no Air Supply? Hell, go back even further to Neil Diamond. Hell, pull Porter Waggoner out the woodwork too. How about some of the local artists in some of the small towns? I'm sure some of them were making adult contempoary too. Go even further back to previous centuries with Bach and Beethoven if you want to. Hell, maybe some cavemen were making adult contemporary too. You can pull as many examples out of your hat as you want to but we've already been down this road before in this very thread on page 2, reply #55, and I've already addressed it. I'm not going to keep typing the same shit over and over to stuff I've already addressed.

vainandy said:

Well, of course I do because I was raised to tell the truth. Are you wanting me to lie?

.

As for the examples of people in the rest of this post, What...no Air Supply? Hell, go back even further to Neil Diamond. Hell, pull Porter Wagoner out the woodwork too. How about some of the local artists in some of the small towns? I'm sure some of them were making adult contempoary too. Go even further back to previous centuries with Bach and Beethoven if you want to. Hell, maybe some cavemen were making adult contemporary too. You can pull as many examples out of your hat as you want to but we've already been down this road before in this very thread on page 2, reply #55, and I've already addressed it. I'm not going to keep typing the same shit over and over to stuff I've already addressed.

Because none of them are R&B. I specifically listed artists that were considered R&B and all of those records came out in the early 1980s before Whitney even had an album out. Porter Wagoner is country, so what does he got to do with it? He's not even crossover country like Barbara Mandrell or Kenny Rogers. Lionel was just as popular as Whitney, he co-wrote We Are The World. That could be a Whitney style song. Dancing On The Ceiling is like I Wanna Dance With Somebody or How Will I Know. Say You Say Me, Hello, Ballerina Girl, etc. are all songs Whitney could have done. So are other songs like Let's Hear It For The Boy by Deniece Williams. Whitney's 1st album came out in 1985, her 2nd in 1987. 1987 is the year New Jack Swing blew up. Latin Freestyle like the Cover Girls, Exposé, Stevie B, Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam were also getting airplay on R&B radio. So were rap acts like Beastie Boys, Kool Moe Dee, EPMD, LL Cool J, Eric B & Rakim, 2 Live Crew, etc. Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson, The Jets, George Michael, Morris Day, Jesse Johnson, Taylor Dayne, Alexander O'Neal, Nu Shooz, Gloria Estefan, Terence Trent D'Arby, Jody Watley, even Rick Astley & Samantha Fox was on R&B radio. Sometimes local R&B radio would play the southern soul singers on Malaco Records like Z.Z. Hill & Johnnie Taylor and even zydeco records. None of those acts music sound much like Whitney or Anita Baker or Glenn Jones. So how did she change anything? Whitney only had 1985 & 1986 for the most part as that is before the popularity of New Jack Swing really hit. Secret Lovers by Atlantic Starr came out the same year as Whitney's debut. It was a big pop hit. Whitney wouldn't have had any influence on them as she hadn't blew up yet.

Funk didn't die because of Whitney Houston. It was because record labels signed fewer funk acts in the 1980s, especially horn groups. Funk was considered disco and they mostly stopped signeing disco acts too, or at least the title was changed to "dance music". Notice that Cameo was around 10 members at one point and then there was 5, then 3. Quincy Jones discovered James Ingram (adult contemporary) & Al B. Sure! (New Jack Swing). Ouincy also signed New Order to his label. So you could say Quincy had a hand in electronic dance music as well. Quincy made albums with rappers (Back On The Block, Q's Juke Joint). Quincy was behind The Fresh Prince & LL Cool J getting TV sitcoms in the early 1990s. Also mainstream radio started playing more of the adult contemporary acts after they all of a sudden stopped playing disco. The Bee Gees and Donna Summer didn't get the same airplay in the 1980s (in the USA). Donna managed to get a big hit with She Works Hard For The Money, but she was mostly ignored otherwise.

SantanaMaitreya said:

jjhunsecker said:

EmmaMcG said:

SantanaMaitreya said:

Idiotic comparisons? May I remind you that the first post you made on this thread was not about Elvis, but about Michael Jackson. As soon as folks say something about Jacko the all the Jacko fans come in and go all

The funniest thing about it was that I was making it very clear how big a Michael Jackson fan I am but still, any perceived slight against the man has a certain section of his fanbase up in arms. Fucking hilarious, really.

Free2BMe said:

Free2BMe said:

EmmaMcG said:

jjhunsecker said:

As a singer, I would rate Elvis 10 out of 10. His only true peers in post 1955 popular music in terms of vocal talent are Aretha Franklin, Ray Charles, and perhaps Sam Cooke and Marvin Gaye. As for writing songs, Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald and Tony Bennett and Dionne Warwick and Whitney Houston and Patsy Cline and Barbra Streisand wrote very little if any as well. Even with Aretha, the majority of her greatest performances were of songs written by other people.

jjhunsecker said:

EmmaMcG said:

Free2BMe said:

Strange how you twisted this into something else. I read your Post #20 and it was clear you are a Michael Jackson fan. However, that’s not what the discussion was about and you know it. My comment was SPECIFICALLY about you COMPARING Michael and Elvis songwriting skills. Go back and read your OWN post. I only pointed out that Michael was the SOLE songwriter of some of his BIGGEST and most ICONIC hits. That wasn’t a MJ fan gettin all upset, that was an MJ fan correcting Misinformation. You compared Michael’s songwriting to Elvis and Elvis never wrote a single song. That’s not bad, that’s the FACTS. Let’s stop trying to manipulate WHY Michael Jackson fans commented in this thread. It was ONLY to correct MISINFORMATION, and that’s the bottomline. We are all SUPPOSED to be ADULTS in this forum, let’s admit our mistakes and move on. Go back and read YOUR post #20. I have, several times.

It wasn't really their songwriting skills I was comparing. I was comparing their success. My point was that people downplay Elvis' importance due to him not playing an instrument or writing his own songs. And a lot of people downplay Michael Jackson's importance for those same reasons. Obviously, we all know MJ was a competent songwriter and has written some of the biggest and best pop songs of all time but the fact is that on a lot of his songs, he had only a co-writing credit. Does that diminish his overall appeal? No it doesn't. If he had written none of his own songs it still wouldn't diminish his appeal. Does the fact that he couldn't play an instrument as well as Prince/Stevie Wonder etc diminish his appeal? Definitely not. Michael Jackson's appeal, for me at least, lies in his ability to put on great performances, sing like only few could and release top quality material throughout his career. The very same reasons why Elvis is held in such high regard. If it makes you feel any better, or helps you see what I'm talking about, read my post again but replace Michael Jackson with Frank Sinatra. Or Elton John. Or Marvin Gaye prior to What's Going On. Or countless other music legends. I picked Michael Jackson because he's the one I like best. What I'm saying is not "misinformation" or "disrespect". I'm merely pointing out how ridiculous the notion of Elvis being overrated is. Especially when someone uses songwriting credits or ability to play an instrument as the basis for their opinions. Very few artists throughout the years do both if those things on the majority of their songs. And it makes no difference to the quality of the final output or the appeal of the artist performing it. I really can't make it any clearer than that.

Makes perfect sense 2 me.