JudasLChrist said:

MoodyBlumes said:

And what is your interpretation?

"During their eight rounds Clay took away Liston’s heavyweight championship, his manhood, and his basic will to go on. Six years later, Sonny was found dead in his Las Vegas home from a heroin overdose."

I'm not having a conversation with you. You just want to fight and rage about yr very narrow issue. I've already told you that you are being inappropriate and I told you to back off.

Here is what I find inappropriate:

.

"During their eight rounds Clay took away Liston’s heavyweight championship, his manhood, and his basic will to go on. Six years later, Sonny was found dead in his Las Vegas home from a heroin overdose."

.

But to each his own.

MoodyBlumes said:

onlyforaminute said:

MoodyBlumes said:

And what is your interpretation?

"During their eight rounds Clay took away Liston’s heavyweight championship, his muanhood, and his basic will to go on. Six years later, Sonny was found dead in his Las Vegas home from a heroin overdose."

I suggest you leave this particular tidbit alone. There's a lengthy Wikipedia page on this fight(s) and there seems to have been a ton of stuff revolving around it. I would suggest you stick with tidbits you know about. It's painfully obvious you know nothing about this part of history. All I know is that famous picture. I'm not saying any of this in defense on Neal's book in any form or fashion but this horse isn't going to carry you anywhere.

I wasn't the one who brought up this tidbit. What part of this history makes Neal's statement appropriate?

MoodyBlumes said:

onlyforaminute said:

MoodyBlumes said:

I wasn't the one who brought up this tidbit. What part of this history makes Neal's statement appropriate?

I was defending my use of the word traumatizing which seems to be scrutinized here by someone who has absolutely no context to the event whatsoever but insist on quantifying it. It looks downright silly to argue whether it could have been that way for the parties involved when one knows no history behind it just to complain about something.

Fair enough, when I think about trauma I don't think about a professional boxer losing a fight. Not saying the defeat wasn't hard on Sonny. But Neal claiming that Ali took away Sonny's will to live and having him make atonement in his book (while he is conveniently dead), is inappropriate. One of my very favorite films is When We Were Kings...funny how people change.

MoodyBlumes said:

onlyforaminute said:

MoodyBlumes said:

Fair enough, when I think about trauma I don't think about a professional boxer losing a fight. Not saying the defeat wasn't hard on Sonny. But Neal claiming that Ali took away Sonny's will to live and having him make atonement in his book (while he is conveniently dead), is inappropriate. One of my very favorite films is When We Were Kings...funny how people change.

It was an iconic fight is all I know. I know nothing about Liston’s history before nor after that event. But P history before and after losing amir I'm familiar with. And I do find it odd for so many to keep hanging his death due to overdose on that event but ignore, what was a rumor for years and now was confirmed in Mayte's book, that P had an overdose incident which he could have easily died from while she was pregnant, which was supposed to be the happiest time in his life. Seems like a selective logic system is being applied.

careful... "hot potato"

Margot said:

onlyforaminute said:

Margot said:

careful... "hot potato"

Because?

I'm in agreement w/you, but some...not so much.

Margot said:

onlyforaminute said:

Margot said:

I'm in agreement w/you, but some...not so much.

Ok.

It has to do with your mention of his near overdose in 96. Some do not like to acknowledge that happened.

onlyforaminute said:

MoodyBlumes said:

onlyforaminute said:

MoodyBlumes said:

.... Liston was a pro fighter - unbeatable. Nobody was expecting Ali to win, but he did. Liston continued fighting after the event, but wasn't to be heavyweight champion again. The fight is easily accessed online if you are interested. One doesn't need to know much to know Ali isn't responsible for his death. [Edited 10/15/20 15:06pm]

Ok. Not sure how this plays into how he responded to this fight but ok. If I really wanted to know, there is the whole wiki page which I did skim. And in that I get why Neal put the event in the book, not really about P which I'm here about but Neal had his point with those who have an opinion about this fight which isn't me. And reading the room, nobody else here cares.

If you are going to include a whole chapter on Ali and Sonny Liston, claim Ali was responsible for Liston's death, and make up a whole atonement scenario, when Ali never claimed he 'felt guilty' for winning the match, then 'the room' shouldn't be surprised that this is being questioned (along with the many other issues raised).

[Edited 10/15/20 16:54pm]

MoodyBlumes said:

According to the book, The Dawn became 3 Chains of Gold movie. Is this new info?

MendesCity said:

According to the book, The Dawn became 3 Chains of Gold movie. Is this new info?

I'd never heard that before and was kinda surprised, yeah.

MendesCity said:

fragglerock said:

MendesCity said:

According to the book, The Dawn became 3 Chains of Gold movie. Is this new info?

Most likely total trash like so much of this 'book'

You need to build your arguments so we can follow you.

Making a blanket statement stating something is 'total trash'

is lazy and says nothing.

fragglerock said:

MendesCity said:

According to the book, The Dawn became 3 Chains of Gold movie. Is this new info?

Most likely total trash like so much of this 'book'

Hey you should read the book. Neil rote the script for The Dawn/3 Chains of Gold. He would be THE person to talk to about that particular topic.

Margot said:

fragglerock said:

MendesCity said: Most likely total trash like so much of this 'book'

You need to build your arguments so we can follow you.

Making a blanket statement stating something is 'total trash'

is lazy and says nothing.

Why should I structure my argument the way that YOU want it? Are you delusional? LOL

.

You've clearly already made up your mind on Neal Karlen and his trash called book.

.

[Edited 10/24/20 22:07pm]

onlyforaminute said:

As if someone is going to dig up PP looking for a time capsule.

if there was a will in there, yeah its worth digging up. but we all know this is total fiction like so much else written in this book already proven to be lies

[Edited 10/24/20 22:16pm]

JudasLChrist said:

fragglerock said:

onlyforaminute said:

As if someone is going to dig up PP looking for a time capsule.

if there was a will in there, yeah its worth digging up. but we all know this is total fiction like so much else written in this book already proven to be lies

[Edited 10/24/20 22:16pm]

Yeah, I can't picture Prince out there with a shovel digging a hole for his time capsule Plus, as much as he changes his mind, he'd have to dig that thing back up so many times!

Also, why would John Nelson ask if there is a Will after learning of the time capsule? Who would associate those two things (?) - time capsules are typically meant to be unearthed generations later - any sooner and its just hoarding.

[Edited 10/25/20 9:15am]

Number23 said:

Just finished it there. Revelatory, if true. But a lot of my suspicions over the years were confirmed. Certainly looks like that skanky street dealer the Daily Mail dug up the day after he died was telling the truth. Addicted to painkillers since Purple Rain. Bipolar traits. Serious cognitive dissonance. Body was absolutely fucked since Parade. Double hip transplant. Kept on swearing til the end. Hated Miles Davis (!). Unceasingly cynical and hateful. Despised most people, only saw weakness. Loathed brownnosing. Used friends as extension of self for personal gain. Could only empathise with Mozart. Major working class chip on his shoulder. Lied about his mother continually because she didn’t protect him from John‘s bestings. Extreme childhood trauma. Lied about ... everything. Constantly. Mainly to himself. ‘Our family exists’. Never recovered from the death of his child. Believed it was his God’s punishment for so-called explicit lyrics and behaviour. Wrapped himself in so many layers of that he had no idea who he was anymore. Viewed his gift as a curse, his genius his daemon. Got rid of anyone who got too close. Was losing feeling in his arms and legs. Talked of suicide often. Died alone. I feel sick, actually.

No biography will ever be absolutely true, and this isn't a traditional biography anyway. I believe this is the truth as Karlen sees it now. But hindsight changes what we thought was true in the past.

However... I had the same reaction, Number23, all of what you mention in your post makes this one of the saddest books I've ever read. Some of Neal Karlen's specifics may be off, but the broad strokes feel very plausible. The notion that Prince's death was a passive suicide hit me hard.

JudasLChrist said:

Just finished it. I've been reading prince biographies since the 80s. While I wouldn't quite call this I biography, it's more of a memoir of Neil's relationship with friends and a postmortem attempt at understanding who he was. The book is doomed to be hated by certain types of fans because it doesn't always paint a pretty picture, or flat out contradicts what they think they know about him. The thing that people are posting here getting mad because Neil believed that prince disliked Miles Davis as a person is a good example of that. I would remind folks that this is Neil's book and covers Neil's experience with prince, and is different than what prince presented to the public or to other people. I don't think Neil tells a single lie in this book, and he's very open about what he doesn't know.

There's definitely some tragic stuff in here about Prince believing in his created persona to his own detriment. Wendy Melvoin has talks about how prince never stopped being the "rockstar" enough to have been able to ask for help when he was dealing with addiction, and Neil deep dives into that idea further. Prince could never show that kind of "weakness", and was ashamed. There are things in this book which are painful to read for those of us that loved Prince, and whose lives were elevated by his music and grand visions.

Neil has done a real service in telling the truth about what he knew about this extraordinary musician. The narrative of who Prince was gets fleshed out in a more human way. I believe this is one of the most unique books about prince, and will be one of the most important for historians.

I grew up in Minneapolis, and i'm also very appreciative of the picture of Minnesota and it's stifling culture that Neil paints. I don't think I have ever seen or read such an accurate portrayal of this anywhere, and it's actually very important to Prince's story.

I agree with this. Neal may misremember, but I don't think he consciously tells lies. This is Prince from a certain point of view. Take all of the "my friend Prince" books (including Mayte's book and Prince's "autobiography") and we may have a semi-accurate picture.

JudasLChrist said:

Just finished it. I've been reading prince biographies since the 80s. While I wouldn't quite call this I biography, it's more of a memoir of Neil's relationship with friends and a postmortem attempt at understanding who he was. The book is doomed to be hated by certain types of fans because it doesn't always paint a pretty picture, or flat out contradicts what they think they know about him. The thing that people are posting here getting mad because Neil believed that prince disliked Miles Davis as a person is a good example of that. I would remind folks that this is Neil's book and covers Neil's experience with prince, and is different than what prince presented to the public or to other people. I don't think Neil tells a single lie in this book, and he's very open about what he doesn't know.

There's definitely some tragic stuff in here about Prince believing in his created persona to his own detriment. Wendy Melvoin has talks about how prince never stopped being the "rockstar" enough to have been able to ask for help when he was dealing with addiction, and Neil deep dives into that idea further. Prince could never show that kind of "weakness", and was ashamed. There are things in this book which are painful to read for those of us that loved Prince, and whose lives were elevated by his music and grand visions.

Neil has done a real service in telling the truth about what he knew about this extraordinary musician. The narrative of who Prince was gets fleshed out in a more human way. I believe this is one of the most unique books about prince, and will be one of the most important for historians.

I grew up in Minneapolis, and i'm also very appreciative of the picture of Minnesota and it's stifling culture that Neil paints. I don't think I have ever seen or read such an accurate portrayal of this anywhere, and it's actually very important to Prince's story.

My sentiments exactly, Judas. Thank you for speaking my heart and probably of many others'.

jone70 said:

Ruth, Prince's manager during this time, has explicity said this is not accurate:

I just came back on to Twitter to say anything Neal wrote abt 2007 is false.

and also

I can’t speak for the whole of it, but most definitely can tell you on many accounts how erroneous the Sonny Lister story is besides the story of Sonny Lister. [sic]

I'm inclined to believe Ruth, who worked for Prince 24/7 for seven years, over Neal.

Those tweets appear to have been deleted. I wonder why?

I've read most, but not all of this thread. I haven't seen anyone address Neal's claim that the only thing that frightened Prince was the prospect of dying alone.