TrevorAyer said:

Vendetta1 said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said: the existence of God can't be proven. Maybe we should call creationism a myth too.

wut? have u looked around? the existance of god is well proven

No. Not at all.

TrevorAyer said:

Vendetta1 said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said: the existence of God can't be proven. Maybe we should call creationism a myth too.

wut? have u looked around? the existance of god is well proven .. the definition gets arguable when criticizing the subsections of the all encompassing everything header ..

No it is not. Tell me one thing that proves the existence of God.

How can believers argue with evolution when their side sounds just as ridiculous as the other side? You all have your truths. None of it is universal. Deal with it and learn to get along with each other anyway.

no ......

Vendetta1 said:

TrevorAyer said:

wut? have u looked around? the existance of god is well proven .. the definition gets arguable when criticizing the subsections of the all encompassing everything header ..

No it is not. Tell me one thing that proves the existence of God.

How can believers argue with evolution when their side sounds just as ridiculous as the other side? You all have your truths. None of it is universal. Deal with it and learn to get along with each other anyway.

Vendetta1 said:

TrevorAyer said:

wut? have u looked around? the existance of god is well proven .. the definition gets arguable when criticizing the subsections of the all encompassing everything header ..

No it is not. Tell me one thing that proves the existence of God.

How can believers argue with evolution when their side sounds just as ridiculous as the other side? You all have your truths. None of it is universal. Deal with it and learn to get along with each other anyway.

You're equating evolution with creationism as both sounding as ridiculous as the other and both having truths. Care to point out what is ridiculous in evolution and the truths in creationism please?

swdee said:

IshmaelB said:

Q: How do we know "Jesus saves?"

A: Because the Bible says so.

Q: How do we know what the Bible says is true?

A: ...because... its the Bible.

LOL

As a creationist, when christians make stupid statements like this it's just embarasing and damages our cause.

Present your oh so sophisticated, water tight case that wins us all over to creationism then...

Dsoul said:

Vendetta1 said:

No it is not. Tell me one thing that proves the existence of God.

How can believers argue with evolution when their side sounds just as ridiculous as the other side? You all have your truths. None of it is universal. Deal with it and learn to get along with each other anyway.

You're equating evolution with creationism as both sounding as ridiculous as the other and both having truths. Care to point out what is ridiculous in evolution and the truths in creationism please?

Actually no I am not. I may have not made myself clear. Evolution sounds ridiculous to some creationists. Creationism sounds ridiculous to some evolutionists while each of these people believe they have "the truth". That's all I'm saying. I don't have a dog in this fight.

TrevorAyer said:

Vendetta1 said:

No it is not. Tell me one thing that proves the existence of God.

How can believers argue with evolution when their side sounds just as ridiculous as the other side? You all have your truths. None of it is universal. Deal with it and learn to get along with each other anyway.

define god

You are the one who said "god" existed. You define it.

Spinlight said:

From what I know of this topic, most people who believe in alien theories believe the aliens take the place of god.

i believe in the alien theory but i dont think they replace god because i dont see god as being separate from anything.

i dont believe god is separate from us or nature or the stars in the universe or the other life-forms which exist in other dimensions.

"jesus christ" said that god is within us and all around us. i believe that. and i believe that god expresses itself in an infinite number of ways.

i also believe that spirit is androgenous and god is neither he nor she but both. i believe gender is only defined in some of it's manifestations for the sake of pro-creation.

i believe in feminine and masculine energy and the equality of both. i do not support a male dominated religion as this suggests an imbalance in the universe.

i believe that angels and aliens are expressions of our higher selves and therefore representations of the god within us.

i will never support the idea that god is separate from humans, except in the case where humans have cut themselves off from their true identity and lead purely ego-based lives.

but the possibility of re-connecting with their own true nature is up to them to establish.

Spinlight said:

Evolution of cells has been proven already in laboratories.

Next?

do you mean scientists (intelligent beings) can CREATE something like a cell?

[Edited 10/5/10 20:23pm]

IshmaelB said:

... humans evolved out of an ape like species 40,000 years ago

Homo Sapien-Sapiens ARE "ape like species" and came onto the scene at least 150,000 years ago.

Humans may be "ape-like" but that is not the same thing as saying humans evolved from apes...a motorcycle might be "bicycle-like" but bikes didn't "evolve" into motorcycles without an intelligent agent.

IshmaelB said:

Q: How do we know "Jesus saves?"

A: Because the Bible says so.

Q: How do we know what the Bible says is true?

A: ...because... its the Bible.

wish it were that easy

[Edited 10/5/10 20:20pm]

TrevorAyer said:

Vendetta1 said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said: the existence of God can't be proven. Maybe we should call creationism a myth too.

wut? have u looked around? the existance of god is well proven .. the definition gets arguable when criticizing the subsections of the all encompassing everything header ..

depends what you mean by "proof". The evidence supports the probability of God and for many that is proof

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

I think the theory of evolution started first innocently, to explain scientist's bafflement over new species that looked so similar to other species. (Just like we find new species of animals everyday, why does it mean they HAVE to come from another species?). The theory then evolved itself when those that rejected GOD needed a way to debunk creationism. Science itself proves evolution to be on more than a myth, a hoax, whatever you want to call it. Evolution isn't able to be tried and proven, so it will remain no more than a creative theory.

we are on the same side of this whole thread/issue but what you said here can be misleading. Evolution is a fact. Creatures do evolve over time due to natural selection and other factors. The horse has most definitely evolved..... BUT there are limitations to evolution. The micro vs macro distinction. That horsey creature was always the same "kind" (in a Biblical sense- "kind" is not the same thing of species, new species appear all the time...many species of finch for example). It evlovled from a small creature to the robust horse we see today but there's no evidence it evolved from whales.

What is not fact is that all life has evolved naturally from microbes to man. That is materialism which is a religion in itself.

iloveannie said:

HomeSquid said:

wow. You must not have heard/read the rebuttals to Dawkins. He is only effective with those who are not hip to the goings on in the ID and Christian apologist movements.

Thanks though for your honest, humble post. But PLEASE don't rely on Richard Dawkins' sophistry as the end of your quest

Sophistry? What he said resonated more with me than anything anyone of religious belief has yet said.

okay. Like what? What did he say that resonated with you?

Spinlight said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

Well, I don't believe these animals have changed. (I believe the animals have always been 2 different species, kind of like different breeds of dogs) There are no present day animals that can used to accurately and irrefuteably document these changes... The evolutionists say that the changes come from a genetic mutation that the animals go through to adjust to their surroundings. Yet a mutation has never been proven to be anything positive or beneficial. A mutation is considered a defect in a gene that happens randomly, with no specific direction or stimulus in mind. So the animals wouldn't then survive and become better species with a "defect."

If you look at it from purely a scientific perspective... genes don't just pop up into existance. The "fossil evidence" just doesn't exist to prove that an animal has changed to become a completely differernt animal. The "fossils" of many animals are exactly the same as animals of the same species that are alive today. And there are animals today that have mutated/change thousands of times and yet have not changed into completely different animals with any "greater intelligence" or anything significant.

I think the theory of evolution started first innocently, to explain scientist's bafflement over new species that looked so similar to other species. (Just like we find new species of animals everyday, why does it mean they HAVE to come from another species?). The theory then evolved itself when those that rejected GOD needed a way to debunk creationism. Science itself proves evolution to be on more than a myth, a hoax, whatever you want to call it. Evolution isn't able to be tried and proven, so it will remain no more than a creative theory.

Evolution of cells has been proven already in laboratories.

Next?

Proof? OK, say cells can be manipulated perhaps, but entire species? Randomly? Nah..

Spinlight said:

hollywooddove said:

I happen to believe that also. Every science class I took in college, including the infamous study of organic chemistry, is based on a set of fundamental tenants. Number one, is that there is no evidence of spontaneous generation in the serious study of the genre. You will find this in any text based on real time observation. We have no evidence of something coming from nothing. This applies to the physical sciences as well as the organic sciences.

The very basis of life itself is that proteins became so complex that, essentially, life just began from nothing.

what??!?

robinhood said:

i agree that 'intelligent design' doesnt necessarily indicate the intervention of 'god himself', but possibly the interbreeding of alien races with apes,

but perhaps the term GOD is used due to our opportunity to aquire cosmic intelligence due to the extra string of DNA.

Interesting. I haven't rejected the idea that perhaps God used early primates- moreso hominids as a template to create the first human. As far as the horny galaxy-cruising aliens we'd still have to explain the existence of an intelligent alien species.

Chiquetet said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

The theory then evolved itself when those that rejected GOD needed a way to debunk creationism.

But how?

When the theory started out, it was meant to explain these new species of animals. Those that rejected GOD and creationism used the theory of evolution to create an alternate idea to "life and how we got here." They knew people would fall for it...as humans, we want choices. Whether right or wrong, we want to be able to choose what we believe. And all you have to do is tell people you can prove it, and they will believe it. The theory went from "see these animals evolved into this animal" to "humans evolved from apes..." which in turns make people say "see, there is no GOD, we came from apes."

Contrary to popular belief, there is NO hard evidence to prove evolution. The few "proofs" have been debunked and proven to be a hoax... Look at it this way, if you found the remains of 3 different types of cats...say a minx, a domestic cat, and a tiger...they are all in the cat family and share common genetic traits, yet are not the same right? OK, let's say we find another species of cat...would it automatically mean that this "new" species of cat evolved from one of the present day cats or visa versa? No! It could be an extinct species that we've never found before..

What we know today, tells us that siberian tigers and domestic house cats are different, yet if the siberians become extinct then they would eventually not be talked about. In 1,000yrs some people could find a siberian fossil and then could/may conclude that the domestic cat evolved from the siberian!! Which would be wrong, but with the idea of evolution...would it be that hard to conclude?

Animals change mainly due to cross breeding...both natural and man-assisted. Look at the animals today that are "new breeds." Why is it that we don't think this could have been going on for centuries before? Just a thought...

Vendetta1 said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

Evolution is all a myth anyway! The Bible said long before the evolutionists existed that man would be wiser and weaker! The only thing the teaching of evolution is good for is to make one learn to use their imagination! The idea of it is absolutely ridiculous if you really think about it!

the existence of God can't be proven. Maybe we should call creationism a myth too.

I think we should consider them both as being worthy enough to teach and learn. However, schools and scientists alike tend to teach evolution as "fact" when it is not...

Creationism goes back further than evolution..... History is completely ignored when it comes to GOD. The idea of GOD and the Heavens goes way back, how long has the idea of evolution been around?

swdee said:

IshmaelB said:

Q: How do we know "Jesus saves?"

A: Because the Bible says so.

Q: How do we know what the Bible says is true?

A: ...because... its the Bible.

LOL

As a creationist, when christians make stupid statements like this it's just embarasing and damages our cause.

Maybe I'm missing something..but doesn't The Bible teach us this concept? That GOD and his word are truth and that's pretty much it? Isn't that what it really breaks down to? Isn't that the concept of "walk by faith and not by sight?" I mean, The Bible is truth because it just is... What else can be said about it?

HomeSquid said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

I think the theory of evolution started first innocently, to explain scientist's bafflement over new species that looked so similar to other species. (Just like we find new species of animals everyday, why does it mean they HAVE to come from another species?). The theory then evolved itself when those that rejected GOD needed a way to debunk creationism. Science itself proves evolution to be on more than a myth, a hoax, whatever you want to call it. Evolution isn't able to be tried and proven, so it will remain no more than a creative theory.

we are on the same side of this whole thread/issue but what you said here can be misleading. Evolution is a fact. Creatures do evolve over time due to natural selection and other factors. The horse has most definitely evolved..... BUT there are limitations to evolution. The micro vs macro distinction. That horsey creature was always the same "kind" (in a Biblical sense- "kind" is not the same thing of species, new species appear all the time...many species of finch for example). It evlovled from a small creature to the robust horse we see today but there's no evidence it evolved from whales.

What is not fact is that all life has evolved naturally from microbes to man. That is materialism which is a religion in itself.

But how can we PROVE that these animals evolved? There is no proof of this...it's only a theory. These animals could have ALWAYS been 2 seperate animals. There just isn't any hard proof of 1 animal evolving into another. And the lab experiments haven't been successful...scientist have yet to be able to age something so much where it evolves into another species. One of the things that GOD said was very applicable here..that GOD has given everything that you need to survive...so evolving would go against this don't you think?

Vendetta1 said:

TrevorAyer said:

wut? have u looked around? the existance of god is well proven .. the definition gets arguable when criticizing the subsections of the all encompassing everything header ..

No it is not. Tell me one thing that proves the existence of God.

How can believers argue with evolution when their side sounds just as ridiculous as the other side? You all have your truths. None of it is universal. Deal with it and learn to get along with each other anyway.

What I don't understand though when comparing creationism to evolution....creationism has been around for centuries! Since the beginning of time... yet evolution is relatively a new concept. How can anyone even compare the 2? That would be like someone saying for millions of years that the sky is blue, then a new concept that the sky is really brown. Yet without proof, people believe it anyway..

If one puts any basis into science... then the idea of GOD is quite realistic. Science tells us that something must come from something else. The creator has designed this universe perfectly, kind of how we organize our houses. "Positive energy" doesn't organize our houses, why would it organize our universe?

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

Maybe I'm missing something..but doesn't The Bible teach us this concept? That GOD and his word are truth and that's pretty much it? Isn't that what it really breaks down to? Isn't that the concept of "walk by faith and not by sight?" I mean, The Bible is truth because it just is... What else can be said about it?

we interpret the "word of god" according to our own understanding. we perceive and understand the "word of god" through the human mind.

we create an "image of god" accordingly to what we can comprehend through the filter of the human mind.

how can we interpret the "word of god" or "know the truth" if we are not capable of accurately discerning what that is?

wouldnt we need to have the "mind of god" to interpret and understand the "word of god"? can anyone understand anyone else if we're not on the same wavelength?

it says in the bible to not lean on our own understandings, yet we do it everyday. we've created a god according to what we think it is, not necessarily what it is.

until the human mind aquires cosmic intelligence, and not just earthly, flesh bound intelligence, we can't fully know, interpret or understand the "word of god" in all its fullness, imo.

but this is the arrogance of man, to presume to know, based on our own flawed perspective, and assume that flawed perspective to be a fact.

religions throughout the ages have done it, and millions of people all over the word never question man's interpretations of the "word of god" because they are told that man's interpretation is the "word of god".

if the "word of god" was clearly understood and alive in every mind and heart, we wouldnt be fighting over it for thousands of years.

Vendetta1 said:

TrevorAyer said:

wut? have u looked around? the existance of god is well proven .. the definition gets arguable when criticizing the subsections of the all encompassing everything header ..

No it is not. Tell me one thing that proves the existence of God.

How can believers argue with evolution when their side sounds just as ridiculous as the other side? You all have your truths. None of it is universal. Deal with it and learn to get along with each other anyway.

"No it is not. Tell me one thing that proves the existence of God."

Fire on the Foot!

robinhood said:

we interpret the "word of god" according to our own understanding. we perceive and understand the "word of god" through the human mind.

Yes we do understand him through our own minds...the minds that we have been given by GOD. I believe that one can understand GOD and his word when they allow themselves to think with GOD....allow GOD to take over his mind so to speak.

we create an "image of god" accordingly to what we can comprehend through the filter of the human mind.

Very true. I think the issue lies with what frame of mind are we following... the worldly view of life and what GOD is. Or will one allow themselves to follow GOD's will..

how can we interpret the "word of god" or "know the truth" if we are not capable of accurately discerning what that is?

Who's incapable? Just because some still have the mindset "I don't know what the truth is" doesn't mean all have that mindset. I'm not still wondering what the truth is, I'm quite satisfied with where I am.. I do think that interpreting GOD's word has been an issue since so many have attempted it and didn't have GOD in their hearts...

wouldnt we need to have the "mind of god" to interpret and understand the "word of god"? can anyone understand anyone else if we're not on the same wavelength?

Yes; No

it says in the bible to not lean on our own understandings, yet we do it everyday. we've created a god according to what we think it is, not necessarily what it is.

We must lean on GOD to reveal himself to us...you can't contend that everyone leans on their own understanding. There are people in the world that really strive to think with GOD and open themselves up to his will without even knowing what that will is. GOD knows those that work for him, and those that work against him. He gives those that call on him the understanding they need...GOD is who he is, none of humanity's false thoughts/creations will change that, no matter how hard one wants to believe what they want to believe.

until the human mind aquires cosmic intelligence, and not just earthly, flesh bound intelligence, we can't fully know, interpret or understand the "word of god" in all its fullness, imo.

I pretty much agree there, I don't think we will ever *fully* understand 100%, but that doesn't mean we can't/shouldn't understand some things....we can/should understand those things that we allow ourselves to understand through GOD. IF one doesn't have humility before GOD and allow themselves to submit to his authority while excepting his love and grace, then no, they won't understand...

but this is the arrogance of man, to presume to know, based on our own flawed perspective, and assume that flawed perspective to be a fact.

I also find it quite arrogant of man to think that they know better than The Bible...

religions throughout the ages have done it, and millions of people all over the word never question man's interpretations of the "word of god" because they are told that man's interpretation is the "word of god".

Of course one can "question" man's interpretation of The Bible, does that automatically make it untrue? It is up to each individual to seek out the answers to those questions..not from man or themselves, but from GOD. The Bible is a complicated book to understand, none of us may ever really understand every single concept. But there are verses in The Bible that are easy to understand and not open for interpretation..and GOD does instruct his people that have been called by him to spread his message. He will make it possible for every woman and man to hear his word and make their choice...GOD is a fair and just GOD, everyone has the power to understand and accept GOD...

if the "word of god" was clearly understood and alive in every mind and heart, we wouldnt be fighting over it for thousands of years.

I never claimed it was understood by every mind and heart...but it is in some. GOD guides his people, the devil is a very busy person too, one of the things he does is cast doubt in the heart of man, even in some believers..and it can be a very strong temptation. GOD puts the truth in us and transforms us in ways that the human mind can't even understand.. It is impossible for the human mind to comprehend GOD and his power, because we are so self sufficient and don't want to give in to the authority of another. How does that old sayings go.."You must lose your life or you will surely lose your life" or "In order to live you must die."

One of the best pieces of advice I've ever received from my pastor was ~To really understand, appreciate, and follow GOD, you must yield to the will of GOD before you even know what it is~

robinhood said:

we interpret the "word of god" according to our own understanding. we perceive and understand the "word of god" through the human mind.

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

Yes we do understand him through our own minds...the minds that we have been given by GOD. I believe that one can understand GOD and his word when they allow themselves to think with GOD....allow GOD to take over his mind so to speak.

the mind we have been given by god has been polluted, dumbed down, most of it doesnt even work, thanks to the works of man.

we are even raised in a society which conditions us to use the left side of our brain more than the right.

what kind of understanding of the word of god can we achieve if we are mentally impaired to such a degree?

robinhood said:

wouldnt we need to have the "mind of god" to interpret and understand the "word of god"? can anyone understand anyone else if we're not on the same wavelength?

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

Yes; No

so if we need the mind of god to understand the word of god, how can we aquire the mind of god within human thinking?

I pretty much agree there, I don't think we will ever *fully* understand 100%

then what right does any religion have to claim they are the one true religion if they do not fully comprehend the word of god, let alone declare their interpretation as the absolute truth?

robinhood said:

but this is the arrogance of man, to presume to know, based on our own flawed perspective, and assume that flawed perspective to be a fact.

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

I also find it quite arrogant of man to think that they know better than The Bible...

no i meant it is arrogant for man to presume to know what the bible means then preach his opinion as fact. creating god in his own image according to what his limited thinking can comprehend.

It is impossible for the human mind to comprehend GOD and his power,

right. so who then, on the earth, is an authority on these matters?

robinhood said:

robinhood said:

we interpret the "word of god" according to our own understanding. we perceive and understand the "word of god" through the human mind.

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

Yes we do understand him through our own minds...the minds that we have been given by GOD. I believe that one can understand GOD and his word when they allow themselves to think with GOD....allow GOD to take over his mind so to speak.

the mind we have been given by god has been polluted, dumbed down, most of it doesnt even work, thanks to the works of man.

we are even raised in a society which conditions us to use the left side of our brain more than the right.

what kind of understanding of the word of god can we achieve if we are mentally impaired to such a degree?

I see your point, and it is a very good point you make. The only thing I can say along those lines are.. that when one aceepts Jesus into their heart, then they become a new man...heart, mind, soul. So while our old minds belonged to the world, our new minds belong with GOD. And what a transformation it is! The world looks differently, your outlook on life looks differently, and honestly "temptation" doesn't look at all so tempting anymore. That doesn't make you perfect, as we all fall short, but when you've accepted Jesus, you fall in his grace.

no i meant it is arrogant for man to presume to know what the bible means then preach his opinion as fact. creating god in his own image according to what his limited thinking can comprehend.

Oh, I see. I agree then on that... no one should be preaching fact with their own interpretations in mind. I wish people, pastors included, would instruct people to open their Bibles more often and pray more often. Everyone should be reading it with their own eyes and asking GOD to guide them... While we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us. Not just those that have known him since they were 5, or those pastors, who those who go to church every Sunday and Wednesday, but for those that yet to know and accept him...

It is impossible for the human mind to comprehend GOD and his power,

right. so who then, on the earth, is an authority on these matters?

GOD is the authority in my opinion. GOD instructs his people...we must listen to him even if we don't like what is saying. There is a such thing as a "theocratic order" so to speak. GOD instructs to congregate, worship him together in the body of Christ, and that Christ needs to be our guide. From there, GOD leads. HE leads some people into leadership roles. Does it make them righteous? No. It just makes them leaders, those that have decided to be used by GOD to lead his people. Just like many times before. No, not everyone who comes in GOD's name will be working for GOD, but we must pray and ask GOD to help us figure out who is and who isn't real. Our faith needs to lie in Jesus and GOD alone...

HomeSquid said:

TrevorAyer said:

wut? have u looked around? the existance of god is well proven .. the definition gets arguable when criticizing the subsections of the all encompassing everything header ..

depends what you mean by "proof". The evidence supports the probability of God and for many that is proof

What evidence supporting the probability of God? Just give me ONE thing.

I wish Darwin was still around to have his thesis firstly challenged and then categorically corrected by the likes of Daphne and homesquid. At least its not too late for Richard Dawkins et al. I will send word out immediately, evolutionary theory has just been turned on it's very head.