if he was really that upset with the sales of bad, then, he was being a fool. you can't will over 50 million people to buy an album. Bad was a good album. some said it was better than thriller, i never thought so, hell, dangerous actualy might have been his best album, it's only weakness was that he was following a template by that point when he should have been free as a bird, he was trapped. Personally, i think off the wall is still his best of a lifetime full of excellence. the organic sounds of real instruments have dated better than a lot of the synths and things he used later and q (got to give it up) produced the hell out of that album.

Scorp said:

bboy87 said:

Exactly. He wasn't going to outdo Thriller. That was a phenomenom in itself. Markets and eras change. It's inevitable. Even up against Whitney's album, U2, George Michael, Bruce Springsteen, Def Leppard and the freakin' Dirty Dancing soundtrack, It was still considered a blockbuster.

Bad having 6 top 10 singles (and 5 #1 hits) and selling 36 million

Dangerous having 4 top 10 singles and selling close to Bad's sales

Moonwalker being the best selling music home video ever

HIStory being the best selling double album

Blood on The Dancefloor being the best selling remix album

The man was in the Guiness Book of Records as the most successful entertainer EVER. At this point, who cares that he didn't outsell Thriller?

During its initial run from 1987 through March of 1989, Bad sold 25 million copies worldwide, close to a 50% drop in sales and this is why everyone in sight got canned, producer, manager and all

it's easy to say who cares that he didn't outsell Thriller, because he sure cared, and he cared allot. He cared when he released Bad, he cared after releasing Dangerous, and as a result, he went stone cold rebellion mode during History and if fans read between the lines of the lyrics to allot of the songs from that album, he would begin to reveal the slightest hint of having second thoughts embracing the full scale Pop association. and as he said by that point, by the mid 90s, he was "all abandoned in my fame"

The fact is the plastic surgery extreme and his transformation caused a steady declilne in support and the trajectory showed in the sales of all his albums after Thriller.....not to mention health concerns that stripped away the entertainment value to where he couldn't perform freely anymore.

and fans of today, they just need to be honest and stop beating around the bush and say they preferred his transformational look vs his natural being, because that's the reality

PeteSilas said:

if he was really that upset with the sales of bad, then, he was being a fool. you can't will over 50 million people to buy an album. Bad was a good album. some said it was better than thriller, i never thought so, hell, dangerous actualy might have been his best album, it's only weakness was that he was following a template by that point when he should have been free as a bird, he was trapped. Personally, i think off the wall is still his best of a lifetime full of excellence. the organic sounds of real instruments have dated better than a lot of the synths and things he used later and q (got to give it up) produced the hell out of that album.

Scorp said:

During its initial run from 1987 through March of 1989, Bad sold 25 million copies worldwide, close to a 50% drop in sales and this is why everyone in sight got canned, producer, manager and all

it's easy to say who cares that he didn't outsell Thriller, because he sure cared, and he cared allot. He cared when he released Bad, he cared after releasing Dangerous, and as a result, he went stone cold rebellion mode during History and if fans read between the lines of the lyrics to allot of the songs from that album, he would begin to reveal the slightest hint of having second thoughts embracing the full scale Pop association. and as he said by that point, by the mid 90s, he was "all abandoned in my fame"

The fact is the plastic surgery extreme and his transformation caused a steady declilne in support and the trajectory showed in the sales of all his albums after Thriller.....not to mention health concerns that stripped away the entertainment value to where he couldn't perform freely anymore.

and fans of today, they just need to be honest and stop beating around the bush and say they preferred his transformational look vs his natural being, because that's the reality

When Nelson George was still writing for Billboard, he wrote that Bad was more consisten than Thriller.

Exactly, trapped by the web of the Pop Ascension that called on him to embrace the concept of racial indifference, and that concept is what brought forth the calamities he spoke of in the song Scream.

"with such confusion, doesn't it make you wanna scream"

"you're bashed, abused, victimized within the scheme"

Off The Wall remains the quintessential r&b/soul album of all time to this very day and will always be

With the success of Thriller, there was no reason for him not to believe that Bad could surpass it, Bad was the compass that created the trajectory for the way the rest of his career was going to play out.

PeteSilas said:

if he was really that upset with the sales of bad, then, he was being a fool. you can't will over 50 million people to buy an album. Bad was a good album. some said it was better than thriller, i never thought so, hell, dangerous actualy might have been his best album, it's only weakness was that he was following a template by that point when he should have been free as a bird, he was trapped. Personally, i think off the wall is still his best of a lifetime full of excellence. the organic sounds of real instruments have dated better than a lot of the synths and things he used later and q (got to give it up) produced the hell out of that album.

Scorp said:

During its initial run from 1987 through March of 1989, Bad sold 25 million copies worldwide, close to a 50% drop in sales and this is why everyone in sight got canned, producer, manager and all

it's easy to say who cares that he didn't outsell Thriller, because he sure cared, and he cared allot. He cared when he released Bad, he cared after releasing Dangerous, and as a result, he went stone cold rebellion mode during History and if fans read between the lines of the lyrics to allot of the songs from that album, he would begin to reveal the slightest hint of having second thoughts embracing the full scale Pop association. and as he said by that point, by the mid 90s, he was "all abandoned in my fame"

The fact is the plastic surgery extreme and his transformation caused a steady declilne in support and the trajectory showed in the sales of all his albums after Thriller.....not to mention health concerns that stripped away the entertainment value to where he couldn't perform freely anymore.

and fans of today, they just need to be honest and stop beating around the bush and say they preferred his transformational look vs his natural being, because that's the reality

bboy87 said:

PeteSilas said:

if he was really that upset with the sales of bad, then, he was being a fool. you can't will over 50 million people to buy an album. Bad was a good album. some said it was better than thriller, i never thought so, hell, dangerous actualy might have been his best album, it's only weakness was that he was following a template by that point when he should have been free as a bird, he was trapped. Personally, i think off the wall is still his best of a lifetime full of excellence. the organic sounds of real instruments have dated better than a lot of the synths and things he used later and q (got to give it up) produced the hell out of that album.

When Nelson George was still writing for Billboard, he wrote that Bad was more consisten than Thriller.

and Nelson George wrote that AFTER he said this in an interview during the moment the BAD LP was released.

that's been a popular opinion, for my money I'll take thriller, maybe it's because i was just beginning my love for music but i just think the songs and performances are better. and really, as i've said, off the wall might still be the best of this musical prodigy.

bboy87 said:

PeteSilas said:

if he was really that upset with the sales of bad, then, he was being a fool. you can't will over 50 million people to buy an album. Bad was a good album. some said it was better than thriller, i never thought so, hell, dangerous actualy might have been his best album, it's only weakness was that he was following a template by that point when he should have been free as a bird, he was trapped. Personally, i think off the wall is still his best of a lifetime full of excellence. the organic sounds of real instruments have dated better than a lot of the synths and things he used later and q (got to give it up) produced the hell out of that album.

When Nelson George was still writing for Billboard, he wrote that Bad was more consisten than Thriller.

Scorp said:

bboy87 said:

When Nelson George was still writing for Billboard, he wrote that Bad was more consisten than Thriller.

and Nelson George wrote that AFTER he said this in an interview during the moment the BAD LP was released.

....and then wrote this the following March

i once joked (back before he died, i used to joke, guilt free about mj, but after, i just can't do it, the man had a hard time with this society) "he went from one hit singing "it don't matter if you're black or white" to "scream". come now scorp, many black folk with success suddenly become colorblind, usually they get that wakeup call though. I personally try not to be to hard on MJ, it was a tough thing to deal with made even tougher by the cold reality that no matter how much bleach he used or how nonexistent that big nose became, he would never be accepted as white. Therefore, i don't blame him, I blame his naivety and I blame this society as much as him. Just look at all of us, we all are mixed up, every one of us, black folk talk about white folk but they love everything the white man loves, they worship money and material things even more than the white man does, and white people, as much as they want to put down everyone else, they do everything they can to be like black people, even when it makes no goddamned sense. It's a crazy country, we can love it hate and even do both.

Scorp said:

Exactly, trapped by the web of the Pop Ascension that called on him to embrace the concept of racial indifference, and that concept is what brought forth the calamities he spoke of in the song Scream.

"with such confusion, doesn't it make you wanna scream"

"you're bashed, abused, victimized within the scheme"

Off The Wall remains the quintessential r&b/soul album of all time to this very day and will always be

With the success of Thriller, there was no reason for him not to believe that Bad could surpass it, Bad was the compass that created the trajectory for the way the rest of his career was going to play out.

PeteSilas said:

if he was really that upset with the sales of bad, then, he was being a fool. you can't will over 50 million people to buy an album. Bad was a good album. some said it was better than thriller, i never thought so, hell, dangerous actualy might have been his best album, it's only weakness was that he was following a template by that point when he should have been free as a bird, he was trapped. Personally, i think off the wall is still his best of a lifetime full of excellence. the organic sounds of real instruments have dated better than a lot of the synths and things he used later and q (got to give it up) produced the hell out of that album.

but see, it really was not joking matter, because when that Bad video debuted on CBS in August of 1987, for myself personally, the entire situation at that moment told me this was going to end tragically in a way we've never seen and that's exactly what happened 22 years later because......................the transformation and everything that came with it led to this man's isolation and the way he was socially readjusted, it imprisoned him

and everyone who played a role in this from the cohorts who drove him to do it, to the artist, and to those who supported it, has responsibility.......it's really not about white superiority as much as it is about Race Superiority and this is the reason why we are driven to pick and choose what elements to emulate when it comes to gaining degrees of privilege, and other elements to shun when privilege won't be granted otherwise......THIS is the game MJ was driven by and this is why he said 12 years after reaching the pinnacle, when he said in the song Scream

"Yall keep changing the rules, I keep playing the game, I can't take it much longer, I think I may go insane"......

if things were the way they should be, privilege would not be a measuring stick for success and there wouldn't be a wake up call for anyone.....

and here's more insight into MJ's thinking.....he was led to believe his transformation would lead to neverending "liberty"...he said this in the song They Don't Really Care About Us when he mentions these words

Tell me what has become of my rights
Am I invisible because you ignore me?
Your proclamation promised me free liberty, now
I'm tired of being the victim of shame
They're throwing me in a class with a bad name
I can't believe this is the land from which I came

He wasn't naive.....

I'm a leave this alone for the time being

PeteSilas said:

i once joked (back before he died, i used to joke, guilt free about mj, but after, i just can't do it, the man had a hard time with this society) "he went from one hit singing "it don't matter if you're black or white" to "scream". come now scorp, many black folk with success suddenly become colorblind, usually they get that wakeup call though. I personally try not to be to hard on MJ, it was a tough thing to deal with made even tougher by the cold reality that no matter how much bleach he used or how nonexistent that big nose became, he would never be accepted as white. Therefore, i don't blame him, I blame his naivety and I blame this society as much as him. Just look at all of us, we all are mixed up, every one of us, black folk talk about white folk but they love everything the white man loves, they worship money and material things even more than the white man does, and white people, as much as they want to put down everyone else, they do everything they can to be like black people, even when it makes no goddamned sense. It's a crazy country, we can love it hate and even do both.

Scorp said:

Exactly, trapped by the web of the Pop Ascension that called on him to embrace the concept of racial indifference, and that concept is what brought forth the calamities he spoke of in the song Scream.

"with such confusion, doesn't it make you wanna scream"

"you're bashed, abused, victimized within the scheme"

Off The Wall remains the quintessential r&b/soul album of all time to this very day and will always be

With the success of Thriller, there was no reason for him not to believe that Bad could surpass it, Bad was the compass that created the trajectory for the way the rest of his career was going to play out.

he was naive enough to sing "it doesn't matter if you're black or white". Put it this way, pop stars, all of them, are out of touch, they really are, it's the nature of the beast. Bruce, MJ, Elvis, whoever, they aren't in touch with the grassroots, and I'm still shocked, honestly shocked that Prince was said to be a regular troll here on the org, i can't picture any star of his caliber giving a fuck what the proletariat think about them, and in the case of the org, i really feel bad that he had to read all this bullshit from hating ass fans. Anyway, I don't know that MJ got encouragement to bleach his skin from the associates around him, I think he got the idea like the rest of us do, through being brainwashed from birth that anything other than white is fucked up. From what I know, (I wasn't there, and i doubt youwere either) he had white people on his team who would tell him to knock off the mutilation and the surgery. I've never heard of anyone trying to encourage him to bleach his skin, anyone with any sense of normalcy would realize how much of a freak it would make him. And as for your quotes of his songs, i've mentioned already that I don't really know how seriously to take SOME of the lyrics as they seemed to be part of his schtick, obviously, by the time of history and blood on the dance floor, he had plenty of troubles. The women of billy jean and dirty diana were usurped by a judgemental white power structure, hell, even billy jeans lyrics took on a wierd prophetic bent in the light of the molestation trials, only instead of a woman not being his lover and no one believing him, it was a child not being his lover and no one believing him, kind of eerie when you think about it.

Scorp said:

but see, it really was not joking matter, because when that Bad video debuted on CBS in August of 1987, for myself personally, the entire situation at that moment told me this was going to end tragically in a way we've never seen and that's exactly what happened 22 years later because......................the transformation and everything that came with it led to this man's isolation and the way he was socially readjusted, it imprisoned him

and everyone who played a role in this from the cohorts who drove him to do it, to the artist, and to those who supported it, has responsibility.......it's really not about white superiority as much as it is about Race Superiority and this is the reason why we are driven to pick and choose what elements to emulate when it comes to gaining degrees of privilege, and other elements to shun when privilege won't be granted otherwise......THIS is the game MJ was driven by and this is why he said 12 years after reaching the pinnacle, when he said in the song Scream

"Yall keep changing the rules, I keep playing the game, I can't take it much longer, I think I may go insane"......

if things were the way they should be, privilege would not be a measuring stick for success and there wouldn't be a wake up call for anyone.....

and here's more insight into MJ's thinking.....he was led to believe his transformation would lead to neverending "liberty"...he said this in the song They Don't Really Care About Us when he mentions these words

Tell me what has become of my rights
Am I invisible because you ignore me?
Your proclamation promised me free liberty, now
I'm tired of being the victim of shame
They're throwing me in a class with a bad name
I can't believe this is the land from which I came

He wasn't naive.....

I'm a leave this alone for the time being

PeteSilas said:

i once joked (back before he died, i used to joke, guilt free about mj, but after, i just can't do it, the man had a hard time with this society) "he went from one hit singing "it don't matter if you're black or white" to "scream". come now scorp, many black folk with success suddenly become colorblind, usually they get that wakeup call though. I personally try not to be to hard on MJ, it was a tough thing to deal with made even tougher by the cold reality that no matter how much bleach he used or how nonexistent that big nose became, he would never be accepted as white. Therefore, i don't blame him, I blame his naivety and I blame this society as much as him. Just look at all of us, we all are mixed up, every one of us, black folk talk about white folk but they love everything the white man loves, they worship money and material things even more than the white man does, and white people, as much as they want to put down everyone else, they do everything they can to be like black people, even when it makes no goddamned sense. It's a crazy country, we can love it hate and even do both.

when MJ declared that it didn't matter if you're black or white, that was an extension of his proclamation where the precursor to that was Man in the Mirror....and I love MITM to the core, still listen to it all the time, but rather than changing the spirit from within, which MJ didn't need to do, when he said "if you wanna make the world, a better place, take a look at your self, and then make a change", he applied that principle to further his transformation even more, and this is when the amazing message within his music began to be undermined by manifestation of what he did to himself physically.

and this is the root of the reason why his work, the majority of his music post-Thriller gets overlook by the greater public, songs such as Smile or a Break of Dawn or the self title track to History, or even a Gone Too Soon, especially something as dramatic and profound as Earth Song, one of my favorite MJ songs ever.

yes, we all make mistakes, and we are predisposed to certain types of thinking through years of social conditioning during our formative years........but then you ultimately have choices and free will that fits into that equation.

PeteSilas said:

he was naive enough to sing "it doesn't matter if you're black or white". Put it this way, pop stars, all of them, are out of touch, they really are, it's the nature of the beast. Bruce, MJ, Elvis, whoever, they aren't in touch with the grassroots, and I'm still shocked, honestly shocked that Prince was said to be a regular troll here on the org, i can't picture any star of his caliber giving a fuck what the proletariat think about them, and in the case of the org, i really feel bad that he had to read all this bullshit from hating ass fans. Anyway, I don't know that MJ got encouragement to bleach his skin from the associates around him, I think he got the idea like the rest of us do, through being brainwashed from birth that anything other than white is fucked up. From what I know, (I wasn't there, and i doubt youwere either) he had white people on his team who would tell him to knock off the mutilation and the surgery. I've never heard of anyone trying to encourage him to bleach his skin, anyone with any sense of normalcy would realize how much of a freak it would make him. And as for your quotes of his songs, i've mentioned already that I don't really know how seriously to take SOME of the lyrics as they seemed to be part of his schtick, obviously, by the time of history and blood on the dance floor, he had plenty of troubles. The women of billy jean and dirty diana were usurped by a judgemental white power structure, hell, even billy jeans lyrics took on a wierd prophetic bent in the light of the molestation trials, only instead of a woman not being his lover and no one believing him, it was a child not being his lover and no one believing him, kind of eerie when you think about it.

Scorp said:

but see, it really was not joking matter, because when that Bad video debuted on CBS in August of 1987, for myself personally, the entire situation at that moment told me this was going to end tragically in a way we've never seen and that's exactly what happened 22 years later because......................the transformation and everything that came with it led to this man's isolation and the way he was socially readjusted, it imprisoned him

and everyone who played a role in this from the cohorts who drove him to do it, to the artist, and to those who supported it, has responsibility.......it's really not about white superiority as much as it is about Race Superiority and this is the reason why we are driven to pick and choose what elements to emulate when it comes to gaining degrees of privilege, and other elements to shun when privilege won't be granted otherwise......THIS is the game MJ was driven by and this is why he said 12 years after reaching the pinnacle, when he said in the song Scream

"Yall keep changing the rules, I keep playing the game, I can't take it much longer, I think I may go insane"......

if things were the way they should be, privilege would not be a measuring stick for success and there wouldn't be a wake up call for anyone.....

and here's more insight into MJ's thinking.....he was led to believe his transformation would lead to neverending "liberty"...he said this in the song They Don't Really Care About Us when he mentions these words

Tell me what has become of my rights
Am I invisible because you ignore me?
Your proclamation promised me free liberty, now
I'm tired of being the victim of shame
They're throwing me in a class with a bad name
I can't believe this is the land from which I came

He wasn't naive.....

I'm a leave this alone for the time being

bboy87 said:

Scorp said:

and Nelson George wrote that AFTER he said this in an interview during the moment the BAD LP was released.

....and then wrote this the following March

and then he wrote this book some 15 years later after all the smoke had cleared out

https://www.amazon.com/De...0142004081

[Edited 7/27/17 7:20am]

Goddess4Real said:

Quincy Jones Awarded $9.4 Million in Michael Jackson Royalty Trial http://www.billboard.com/...-9-million

The legendary producer had originally requested $30 million he claimed he was cheated out of since the King of Pop's death in 2009.

Iconic composer and music mogul Quincy Jones who produced Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad was calm and cool on Wednesday (July 26) as a Los Angeles courtroom jury awarded him $9.4 million in the trial against Michael Jackson's estate, claiming he was cheated out of royalties after the King of Pop died in 2009.

The award is not the $30 million the legendary producer was hoping for, but the amount reflects more than what the Jackson estate believed they should pay him. Jones, dressed in a gray suit and wearing a lavender dress shirt, looked at a verdict form and paid close attention during the verdict reading Wednesday afternoon.

In a statement given to The Hollywood Reporter Jones said, “As an artist, maintaining the vision and integrity of one’s creation is of paramount importance. I, along with the team I assembled with Michael, took great care and purpose in creating these albums, and it has always given me a great sense of pride and comfort that three decades after they were originally recorded, these songs are still being played in every corner of the world."

The deliberations, which began Monday afternoon after the closing arguments ended, cap off the three-week trial after Jones' years-long fight to prove that he was denied at least $30 million in royalties. Jones sued MJJ Productions in 2013, claiming that he was owed significant money and that he was wrongfully excluded from having the option to remix works he created with Jackson.

Following the verdict, Howard Weitzman and Zia Modabber, attorneys for the estate of Michael Jackson, said Jones should not have received the sum. "While the jury denied Quincy Jones $21 million – or more than two-thirds of what he demanded -- from The Estate of Michael Jackson, we still believe that giving him millions of dollars that he has no right to receive under his contracts is wrong," the pair said in a statement issued to Billboard.

The statement continues, "This would reinterpret the legal language in, and effectively rewrite, contracts that Mr. Jones lived under for more than three decades, admitted he never read, referred to as 'contract, montract,' and told the jurors he didn't 'give a damn' about. Any amount above and beyond what is called for in his contracts is too much and unfair to Michael’s heirs. Although Mr. Jones is portraying this is a victory for artists’ rights, the real artist is Michael Jackson and it is his money Mr. Jones is seeking."

Prior to the verdict, the estate had already conceded Jones was owed royalties of less than $400,000 due to accounting errors, but argued that the producer was not entitled to $30 million. Since Jackson's death, Jones has received about $18 million in royalties, according to court testimony given during the trial.

During the trial, jurors heard testimony from accounting experts, attorneys, music specialists, royalties specialists and the 84-year-old Jones, who took the stand last week to tell his story. Charming in demeanor, yet bold in his assertions that he was cheated out of millions, Jones spoke in court about his significant contributions to Jackson's musical catalog, which includes the ownership of the masters that are now managed by the estate.

Regardless of what the contracts said, Jones declared, the right thing has always been to pay him for his work, which has been exploited since Jackson's death. "Contract, montract," said Jones during his first day on the stand fast week. "If we made the record, we deserve to get paid." The albums in question were Off the Wall, Thriller, Bad and the This Is It soundtrack, in addition to two Cirque du Soleil shows.

Two contracts from 1978 and 1985 were at the center of the dispute between Jones and Jackson, with specific wording that at times seemed to have a variety of interpretations. The deals indicate that Jones is entitled to a share of record royalties from Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad. However, the dispute intensified because Jones believes that he should have always received shares from the profits of Jackson's 1991 joint venture with Sony. Additionally, Jones said he was also entitled to net profits from movies instead of licensing fees from the songs used in those projects.

Jones argued that the This Is It documentary concert film, which opened in theaters four months after Jackson's death, counted as a "video show" under his contract, which would have entitled him to a share of the net receipts. The Jackson legal team argued that the term is standard for music and irrelevant in Jones' appeal.

The jury had to closely examine Jones' contract, which indicates that the producer has the right of first refusal to remix any of the works he produced with Jackson, but the Jackson attorneys maintained that Jones' right was limited to remixes ordered by Sony at the time the albums were being produced.

Before deliberations began, Stern instructed the jury to consider the actions of the parties from the time that the contract was signed until the time when the dispute was initiated as a way to interpret what the words of the contract meant during that period. That directive played a key factor in the jury's final decisions as they looked at Jones, Jackson and MJJ and how they treated the business relationship from 1985 to 2013.

In a recent exclusive interview with Billboard, Jackson estate attorney Howard Weitzman said an appeal could be an option if the award handed to Jones was substantial.

"If he gets [major] money obviously there is a process post-trial," Weitzman said. "We'll take advantage of all that and sometime in the future if there is no relief there, then he'll get paid."

[Edited 7/26/17 21:44pm]

Glad this mess is over. Hopefully Quincy keeps quiet about Michael from now on. After all the questionable things he has said about MJ, he really shouldn't say anything about MJ at this point.

[Edited 7/27/17 7:36am]

This case came down to the documents and math. Not personal stuff.

As to the personal stuff, you've got 2 of the most important artists in pop music history who collaborated on the biggest musical phenomenon the world has ever seen and created signature sounds together while making megatons of money. It's easy to see how that relationship could be complicated and even messy over the decades.

bboy87 said:

PeteSilas said:

if he was really that upset with the sales of bad, then, he was being a fool. you can't will over 50 million people to buy an album. Bad was a good album. some said it was better than thriller, i never thought so, hell, dangerous actualy might have been his best album, it's only weakness was that he was following a template by that point when he should have been free as a bird, he was trapped. Personally, i think off the wall is still his best of a lifetime full of excellence. the organic sounds of real instruments have dated better than a lot of the synths and things he used later and q (got to give it up) produced the hell out of that album.

When Nelson George was still writing for Billboard, he wrote that Bad was more consisten than Thriller.

Good read and good to know; but that book he published after mj's death appeared to recant anything positive after Thriller era once again, possibly cause of the transformation and his perception of it. This was apparent when he wrote something to the effect of state of shock, dirty diana and give in to me being wannabe rock songs...his narrative clearly demonstrated that mj's changes were clouding his perception on the musical evolution, and though he may have been writing what a lot of folks were thinking, he also has the power and intelligence to look at it deeper, challenge the public consciousness a little more, and would be interesting to see what he writes in the future about mj, if ever again

[Edited 7/27/17 8:33am]

mjscarousal said:

alphastreet said:

I'm sure he's getting paid, but it's also good to keep in mind what he may have been owed from a past contract, that rate has to have been adjusted with time somehow, on top of it, royalties from products using music from OTW-Thriller-Bad posthumously ala Cirque Du Soilel. So about $30 million sounds right, and giving him a small settlement does no justice to the work. It's business, you don't have to like or agree with his comments about mj in recent years, and he's entitled to his share and deserves more respect.

[Edited 7/25/17 6:53am]

If they can prove that Quincy is owed money I agree that they should pay him, but that doesn't necessarily mean he deserves respect because he doesn't as far as I am concern.

Respect as in, pay the man his dues. I don't have to agree with what he's said and I don't, but I can try to understand it was coming from a place of anger, sadness and helplessness over what happened to mj, even if how he articulated it publicly wasn't the best way to go....

namepeace said:

This case came down to the documents and math. Not personal stuff.

As to the personal stuff, you've got 2 of the most important artists in pop music history who collaborated on the biggest musical phenomenon the world has ever seen and created signature sounds together while making megatons of money. It's easy to see how that relationship could be complicated and even messy over the decades.

Yes.

alphastreet said:

bboy87 said:

When Nelson George was still writing for Billboard, he wrote that Bad was more consisten than Thriller.

Good read and good to know; but that book he published after mj's death appeared to recant anything positive after Thriller era once again, possibly cause of the transformation and his perception of it. This was apparent when he wrote something to the effect of state of shock, dirty diana and give in to me being wannabe rock songs...his narrative clearly demonstrated that mj's changes were clouding his perception on the musical evolution, and though he may have been writing what a lot of folks were thinking, he also has the power and intelligence to look at it deeper, challenge the public consciousness a little more, and would be interesting to see what he writes in the future about mj, if ever again

[Edited 7/27/17 8:33am]

Ill respond to this later and explain how there's hidden meaning within the words being said

alphastreet said:

mjscarousal said:

If they can prove that Quincy is owed money I agree that they should pay him, but that doesn't necessarily mean he deserves respect because he doesn't as far as I am concern.

Respect as in, pay the man his dues. I don't have to agree with what he's said and I don't, but I can try to understand it was coming from a place of anger, sadness and helplessness over what happened to mj, even if how he articulated it publicly wasn't the best way to go....

Frustration maybe?

214 said:

alphastreet said:

Respect as in, pay the man his dues. I don't have to agree with what he's said and I don't, but I can try to understand it was coming from a place of anger, sadness and helplessness over what happened to mj, even if how he articulated it publicly wasn't the best way to go....

Frustration maybe?

you guys can believe that if you want but anyone who's been as sociable and in the spotlight for as long as q has knows how to contain anything like that if he knew it was making him look bad. I think it was just what I said, kind of a gloating thing, kind of a "you left me and you couldn't make it on your own".

I'm aware of the man in the mirror lyrics and the irony about them, he didn't write that tune though. Ya, you could say he lived it out in distorted fashion. I don't know if the later work would have gotten credit or not without all the craziness, no one can say. Like elvis before him, he had plenty of great work that got ignored, so did Prince, it happens. MJ's major issue was he just wasn't productive enough, not from a commercial standpoint, from a creative standpoint, it's a shame. I understand why, the fame, the allegations, but it's still a shame.

Scorp said:

when MJ declared that it didn't matter if you're black or white, that was an extension of his proclamation where the precursor to that was Man in the Mirror....and I love MITM to the core, still listen to it all the time, but rather than changing the spirit from within, which MJ didn't need to do, when he said "if you wanna make the world, a better place, take a look at your self, and then make a change", he applied that principle to further his transformation even more, and this is when the amazing message within his music began to be undermined by manifestation of what he did to himself physically.

and this is the root of the reason why his work, the majority of his music post-Thriller gets overlook by the greater public, songs such as Smile or a Break of Dawn or the self title track to History, or even a Gone Too Soon, especially something as dramatic and profound as Earth Song, one of my favorite MJ songs ever.

yes, we all make mistakes, and we are predisposed to certain types of thinking through years of social conditioning during our formative years........but then you ultimately have choices and free will that fits into that equation.

PeteSilas said:

he was naive enough to sing "it doesn't matter if you're black or white". Put it this way, pop stars, all of them, are out of touch, they really are, it's the nature of the beast. Bruce, MJ, Elvis, whoever, they aren't in touch with the grassroots, and I'm still shocked, honestly shocked that Prince was said to be a regular troll here on the org, i can't picture any star of his caliber giving a fuck what the proletariat think about them, and in the case of the org, i really feel bad that he had to read all this bullshit from hating ass fans. Anyway, I don't know that MJ got encouragement to bleach his skin from the associates around him, I think he got the idea like the rest of us do, through being brainwashed from birth that anything other than white is fucked up. From what I know, (I wasn't there, and i doubt youwere either) he had white people on his team who would tell him to knock off the mutilation and the surgery. I've never heard of anyone trying to encourage him to bleach his skin, anyone with any sense of normalcy would realize how much of a freak it would make him. And as for your quotes of his songs, i've mentioned already that I don't really know how seriously to take SOME of the lyrics as they seemed to be part of his schtick, obviously, by the time of history and blood on the dance floor, he had plenty of troubles. The women of billy jean and dirty diana were usurped by a judgemental white power structure, hell, even billy jeans lyrics took on a wierd prophetic bent in the light of the molestation trials, only instead of a woman not being his lover and no one believing him, it was a child not being his lover and no one believing him, kind of eerie when you think about it.

PeteSilas said:

214 said:

Frustration maybe?

you guys can believe that if you want but anyone who's been as sociable and in the spotlight for as long as q has knows how to contain anything like that if he knew it was making him look bad. I think it was just what I said, kind of a gloating thing, kind of a "you left me and you couldn't make it on your own".

I meant frustration out of pain because of how MJ's life turned out to be.

214 said:

PeteSilas said:

you guys can believe that if you want but anyone who's been as sociable and in the spotlight for as long as q has knows how to contain anything like that if he knew it was making him look bad. I think it was just what I said, kind of a gloating thing, kind of a "you left me and you couldn't make it on your own".

I meant frustration out of pain because of how MJ's life turned out to be.

ok, and that's why he brought up how michael thought he was "losing it". of course he scoffed at that and had made statements that he could see musical fads comeing a million miles away.

I can't understand how is it possible a song like Bless His Soul has been so overlooked for so many years, or the whole Destiny album for that matter.

alphastreet said:

mjscarousal said:

If they can prove that Quincy is owed money I agree that they should pay him, but that doesn't necessarily mean he deserves respect because he doesn't as far as I am concern.

Respect as in, pay the man his dues. I don't have to agree with what he's said and I don't, but I can try to understand it was coming from a place of anger, sadness and helplessness over what happened to mj, even if how he articulated it publicly wasn't the best way to go....

We will have to agree to disagree. Quincy said disrespectful things about MJ during the trial, not just after he died. He was not a good friend to Michael. There is no excuse for any of his behavior. Friends do not do that, period.

[Edited 7/27/17 18:26pm]

PeteSilas said:

214 said:

Frustration maybe?

you guys can believe that if you want but anyone who's been as sociable and in the spotlight for as long as q has knows how to contain anything like that if he knew it was making him look bad. I think it was just what I said, kind of a gloating thing, kind of a "you left me and you couldn't make it on your own".

I agree.. if you consider someone to be your "brother" why try to defame them? Why disrespect them and their children? I don't see how anyone could excuse that behavior. Its not like Quincy was some random producer, MJ identified Q as a friend and so did he, so he should be held to that standard. He was a fake and not a geniune friend. I sense Quincy was jealous of MJ as well.

[Edited 7/27/17 18:32pm]

214 said:

I can't understand how is it possible a song like Bless His Soul has been so overlooked for so many years, or the whole Destiny album for that matter.

haven't heard that one, i'll check it out. I loved the recently, (for me) discovery "if you don't love me" great, motown derived song, shame he didn't release it, i could see why, didn't fit the gothic, dark vibe he was going with, he should have maybe given it to another artist.

PeteSilas said:

214 said:

I can't understand how is it possible a song like Bless His Soul has been so overlooked for so many years, or the whole Destiny album for that matter.

haven't heard that one, i'll check it out. I loved the recently, (for me) discovery "if you don't love me" great, motown derived song, shame he didn't release it, i could see why, didn't fit the gothic, dark vibe he was going with, he should have maybe given it to another artist.

For me one of his worst songs i have listened from him. Take a listen to the Destiny album.

214 said:

PeteSilas said:

haven't heard that one, i'll check it out. I loved the recently, (for me) discovery "if you don't love me" great, motown derived song, shame he didn't release it, i could see why, didn't fit the gothic, dark vibe he was going with, he should have maybe given it to another artist.

For me one of his worst songs i have listened from him. Take a listen to the Destiny album.

really? even worse than some of the thriller and bad outtakes? I couldn't get into those at all. I loved it. edit, ive heard the album before, it didn't strike a bell, i'm listening now, it's ok.

[Edited 7/27/17 19:06pm]

PeteSilas said:

214 said:

For me one of his worst songs i have listened from him. Take a listen to the Destiny album.

really? even worse than some of the thriller and bad outtakes? I couldn't get into those at all. I loved it. edit, ive heard the album before, it didn't strike a bell, i'm listening now, it's ok.

[Edited 7/27/17 19:06pm]

Just ok? and you didn't like Thriller and Bad outtakes but you did like IYDLM? to each his own i guess.

214 said:

PeteSilas said:

really? even worse than some of the thriller and bad outtakes? I couldn't get into those at all. I loved it. edit, ive heard the album before, it didn't strike a bell, i'm listening now, it's ok.

[Edited 7/27/17 19:06pm]

Just ok? and you didn't like Thriller and Bad outtakes but you did like IYDLM? to each his own i guess.

it only relistened once, usually though, if i like something, i'll like it on first or second listen. of course several of the other songs on the jacksons albums were fantastic. i just listened to ifdlm again, i still love it, but could see why it wouldn't work for him, that was not the kind of stuff he was doing then, like i said, it could have been a hit for someone else like centipede or muscles.