mjscarousal said:

laurarichardson said:

I read his autobiography he is a strange ass man. Some of the things he has said about MJ and Ray Charles are just fucked up. I also listened to the Mike Dean Princepodcast interview with PJ Jones who worked with Prince's mgmt for the 2nd album. He went to Q to see if he could borrow m money to put into Prince's stage show and Q did not want Prince to come in his house he made Prince wait in the car. Just seemed stuck up and snotty.

http://podcastjuice.net/the-prince-podcast-perry-pj-jones-interview/#disqus_thread

Q said that he only knew "Michael the artist, not the person". He said this when MJ was accused in 04. Why would you say that about someone you refer to as your brother and your friend? Why say that when they need your support IF you are suppose to be their friend? Q is a fake and a fuqing fraud, can't stand him. You are right, he is very stuck up and snotty. Michael was very appreciative/loyal to Q and always took the opportunity to give him his props for helping him with his success. Its sad MJ did not have any true friends.

[Edited 7/26/17 11:32am]

He had a lack of friends in the end because he was no longer true to himself, how can you continue to know someone if that person is changing everything u used to know about them

[Edited 7/26/17 12:52pm]

Scorp said:

mjscarousal said:

Q said that he only knew "Michael the artist, not the person". He said this when MJ was accused in 04. Why would you say that about someone you refer to as your brother and your friend? Why say that when they need your support IF you are suppose to be their friend? Q is a fake and a fuqing fraud, can't stand him. You are right, he is very stuck up and snotty. Michael was very appreciative/loyal to Q and always took the opportunity to give him his props for helping him with his success. Its sad MJ did not have any true friends.

[Edited 7/26/17 11:32am]

He had a lack of friends in the end because he was no longer true to himself, how can you continue to know someone if that person is changing everything u used to know about them

[Edited 7/26/17 12:52pm]

Something is mentally wrong with you..

mjscarousal said:

Scorp said:

He had a lack of friends in the end because he was no longer true to himself, how can you continue to know someone if that person is changing everything u used to know about them

[Edited 7/26/17 12:52pm]

Something is mentally wrong with you..

sticks and stones may break one's bones

but the one who seek is the one who owns.....

circa 2017

Michael Jackson told the world and his fans just exactly what was going on with him but rather than say it through actual conversation, he did so through song and lyric all the way to the tilt in the classic WILL YOU BE THERE when he pleaded.....

Everyone's taking control of me
Seems that the world's got a role for me
I'm so confused will you show to me
You'll be there for me
And care enough to bear me

Through song, he acknowledged he was caught up in the web of the greatest illusionary tactic ever concocted in the music indutry.......The Pop Ascension

and this is why he started saying stuff like all he wanted to happen was to be loved because he knew he had lost allot of love along the way

[Edited 7/26/17 15:30pm]

he also said something about "these are the kinds of things that happen when you don't have god in your life" about the mj situation. I swear, q is just like many of the mentors and would be mentors I've had, all hot air, they love to talk and hear themselves speak, they are very very sensitive when it comes to their feelings and respect they get and fuck everyone else. when you need them, they are gone and when it was over you ask yourself "what exactly did I get out of that?" eventually you learn not to let those assholes in your life to begin with.

mjscarousal said:

laurarichardson said:

I read his autobiography he is a strange ass man. Some of the things he has said about MJ and Ray Charles are just fucked up. I also listened to the Mike Dean Princepodcast interview with PJ Jones who worked with Prince's mgmt for the 2nd album. He went to Q to see if he could borrow m money to put into Prince's stage show and Q did not want Prince to come in his house he made Prince wait in the car. Just seemed stuck up and snotty.

http://podcastjuice.net/the-prince-podcast-perry-pj-jones-interview/#disqus_thread

Q said that he only knew "Michael the artist, not the person". He said this when MJ was accused in 04. Why would you say that about someone you refer to as your brother and your friend? Why say that when they need your support IF you are suppose to be their friend? Q is a fake and a fuqing fraud, can't stand him. You are right, he is very stuck up and snotty. Michael was very appreciative/loyal to Q and always took the opportunity to give him his props for helping him with his success. Its sad MJ did not have any true friends.

[Edited 7/26/17 11:32am]

that's not how i interpreted it at the time, though you may be right. Michael did a lot of complaining about fame, it was part of his schtick, I never knew how seriously to take it. One more thing I'll say, I watched the tv special coinciding with the dangerous release, when he perforemed "will you be there for me" i still remember thinking that a time like that would never come for him, it didn't seem possible at that time. Little did we know trouble was right around the corner.

Scorp said:

mjscarousal said:

Something is mentally wrong with you..

sticks and stones may break one's bones

but the one who seek is the one who owns.....

circa 2017

Michael Jackson told the world and his fans just exactly what was going on with him but rather than say it through actual conversation, he did so through song and lyric all the way to the tilt in the classic WILL YOU BE THERE when he pleaded.....

Everyone's taking control of me
Seems that the world's got a role for me
I'm so confused will you show to me
You'll be there for me
And care enough to bear me

Through song, he acknowledged he was caught up in the web of the greatest illusionary tactic ever concocted in the music indutry.......The Pop Ascension

and this is why he started saying stuff like all he wanted to happen was to be loved because he knew he had lost allot of love along the way

[Edited 7/26/17 15:30pm]

PeteSilas said:

yup, i've never forgiven q for the things he said after MJ died. and also, having had a mentor who was a lot like q, a guy who says all the right things but isn't about shit, that doesn't help either. I'm skeptical of all people in a leadership position now and i'd have it no other way. I still think q was a really sharp, talented guy, he's managed to put himself into many historical positions, you can't do that without some real good instincts and intelligence. He has had quite a life, in a way, his life is american history of the last 60 years, he knew ray charles pre-fame, he knew Malcolm X prefame, the list of talent he's been in contact with would put anyone to shame. He's also a fine producer, MJ brought the tunes but Quincy added some nice shit to them. Michael used to say "i don't know what quincy does" which is a cryptic statement and maybe was a portent of later troubles between the two because it just isn't that easy to pin down exactly what he did for michael. Of course he sponsored him, he put his name on him, he had a generations worth of hollywood contacts by the time mj got with him, he was a prolific composer. I just happen to think his ex-wife had a point when she called him a psychopath. Here is a guy who'll slap you on the back and yuck it all up but wont' go to your funeral because "it's enough". Not the kind of guy I want around. Unfortunately, in the celeb worshipping culture, there will always be people to kiss his ass, i mentioned his recent seattle trip, word was that he was just a real social whirlwind, talking to any and every musician who came up to hhim, showing great interest in their life stories. I think he's a conman at least to a degree.

It's pretty easy to pinpoint what Q brought to the table, especially on Off The Wall and Thriller.

He was the one who brought in the musicians and the writers like James Ingram, Tom Bahler, and of course Rod Temperton. He was the one who brought quality control, and helped give the albums direction. Picking the songs that were strongest and what needed to be done to get the best result. Also, he was the one got Michael connected with people like Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, and others.

Michael was getting stronger as an artist and Destiny and Triumph shows you the guy knew what he was doing. There were even talks that he was going to produce for Gladys Knight and The Pips, Barbara Streisand, and other s

By the time Bad, came around, that was more Michael than any of the three albums. He wrote most of the songs and he had worked on the material away from Q and the Westlake team to the point that by the time they got to Westlake, the songs were fully formed (He had been working on songs like Dirty Diana, Smooth Criminal, Speed Demon, Liberian Girl, and Another Part of Me for years.)

A recent article (and I posted in another thread) said Michael felt Q helped make him the artist that he was and he wanted to prove he could do it without Q. He was so adamant about his ideas that he took the tapes AWAY from the studio to his own studio to work on them, which Q did not like. They clashed on the equipment, on what songs made the cut, who worked in the studio with the team and even down to the album title.

It was time they both moved on. Q was ready to chill and Michael was ready to take more control.

[Edited 7/26/17 17:55pm]

....and Q got his money. Not 30 million though

http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/quincy-jones-verdict-michael-jackson-1202506100/

Veteran music producer Quincy Jones prevailed on Wednesday in his dispute over unpaid royalties with the estate of Michael Jackson.

A Los Angeles jury awarded Jones $9.42 ($9,423,695) million in damages, finding that he had been underpaid in royalties for music used in the “This Is It” documentary and two Cirque du Soleil shows.

Jones first sued in 2013, alleging that he was unfairly cut out of posthumous deals by Jackson’s estate to feature his music in the 2009 film and the Cirque shows. He said he was owed $30 million.

During the two-week trial, attorneys for both sides quibbled over how to interpret contract language that governed how Jones’ royalties were calculated.

Jones took the witness stand last week — entering the courtroom in a wheelchair — to explain his views on how he was “cheated out of a lot of money” by the Jackson estate. At issue was the interpretation of two contracts for the albums “Off the Wall,” “Thriller,” and “Bad.” Jones’ lawyers contended that his contracts entitle him to significant proceeds from “This Is It,” the backstage concert film released after Jackson’s death, as well as those from two Cirque du Soleil shows.

In handing down their verdict, the jury did not redefine what a “record” is. On the question of whether the Cirque shows or “This Is It” were considered “records,” the jury said no. As to what comprises a “video show” — “This Is It” is applicable, but not the Cirque performances.

Representing the Jackson estate, Howard Weitzman argued that Jackson himself made major contributions to the sound of each song, which rankled Jones, who testified that producers often take the blame for failures while artists get credit for hits.

nothing could have been done to repeat the success of thriller, with or without q. I know that they argued over equipement, i happen to agree with some of q's points, his take was, new shit isn't always good, the most current thing might not have any staying power. also there were the popular arguement that q tried to get billy jean pulled as a single, he says it was a lie and that "I know where it came from". where did it come from? who'd want to lie about old lovely q? also, there was the story that michael said that q wanted rap on the bad album and that mike said q was "losing it" because rap was dying out, q, being the egomaniac he was, couldn't take the criticism. He was right of course, hip hop has taken over, but, a real secure person doesn't get deeply hurt by some random statement someone makes, that only happens when you have a toxic, huge ego. Believe me, I've had a mentor like that, when it came to my feelings everything was "oh it's not big deal" when it came to his needs it was a huge fucking deal. Like i said, i have q's number. In his book he states he was once kicked out of a popular chinese restaurant called ruby chows (bruce lee infamously worked there too) because he was black. He mentioned that He always wanted an apology for that, who the fuck wants an apology for some slight from 50 fucking years ago? especially when you have so much acclaim, so much money so much respect? I'm telling you, he's a wounded human being, I know his type.

That's the thing, when the entertainment value is set aside, and all the hoopla and hysterica cast down, that's when everything becomes apparent and that's when eveything becomes clear as to exactly what's going on. When I first heard Will You Be There, those lyrics spoke volumes and I knew he was crying out.

The complaints about fame, I believe that was mostly schtick as you mentioned, and then part of it was the reality his career was not as successful after reaching what turned out to be the pinnacle of his career with Thriller.....Thriller should not have been his pinnacle achievement, that's where the story gets dicey, because he knew something was missing after that point, and the majority of his fans knew something was missing, that's why they put so much effort into making sure his latter works receives the same acclaim, recognition that his earlier work did .

The Pop Ascension he was thrust into was a whole other animal, that nobody could be prepared for. This is why he compared his plight to that of a whale in the movie Free Willy to serve as a metaphor for what was happened to him.......

In the same way the whale tried to break free of its confinement in a strange world, Michael tried breaking free of the shackles imposed on him by the Pop Ascension. The difference was that his confinement took on a more ominous form while casting this looming shadow.

PeteSilas said:

that's not how i interpreted it at the time, though you may be right. Michael did a lot of complaining about fame, it was part of his schtick, I never knew how seriously to take it. One more thing I'll say, I watched the tv special coinciding with the dangerous release, when he perforemed "will you be there for me" i still remember thinking that a time like that would never come for him, it didn't seem possible at that time. Little did we know trouble was right around the corner.

Scorp said:

sticks and stones may break one's bones

but the one who seek is the one who owns.....

circa 2017

Michael Jackson told the world and his fans just exactly what was going on with him but rather than say it through actual conversation, he did so through song and lyric all the way to the tilt in the classic WILL YOU BE THERE when he pleaded.....

Everyone's taking control of me
Seems that the world's got a role for me
I'm so confused will you show to me
You'll be there for me
And care enough to bear me

Through song, he acknowledged he was caught up in the web of the greatest illusionary tactic ever concocted in the music indutry.......The Pop Ascension

and this is why he started saying stuff like all he wanted to happen was to be loved because he knew he had lost allot of love along the way

[Edited 7/26/17 15:30pm]

bboy87 said:

....and Q got his money. Not 30 million though

http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/quincy-jones-verdict-michael-jackson-1202506100/

Veteran music producer Quincy Jones prevailed on Wednesday in his dispute over unpaid royalties with the estate of Michael Jackson.

A Los Angeles jury awarded Jones $9.42 ($9,423,695) million in damages, finding that he had been underpaid in royalties for music used in the “This Is It” documentary and two Cirque du Soleil shows.

Jones first sued in 2013, alleging that he was unfairly cut out of posthumous deals by Jackson’s estate to feature his music in the 2009 film and the Cirque shows. He said he was owed $30 million.

During the two-week trial, attorneys for both sides quibbled over how to interpret contract language that governed how Jones’ royalties were calculated.

Jones took the witness stand last week — entering the courtroom in a wheelchair — to explain his views on how he was “cheated out of a lot of money” by the Jackson estate. At issue was the interpretation of two contracts for the albums “Off the Wall,” “Thriller,” and “Bad.” Jones’ lawyers contended that his contracts entitle him to significant proceeds from “This Is It,” the backstage concert film released after Jackson’s death, as well as those from two Cirque du Soleil shows.

In handing down their verdict, the jury did not redefine what a “record” is. On the question of whether the Cirque shows or “This Is It” were considered “records,” the jury said no. As to what comprises a “video show” — “This Is It” is applicable, but not the Cirque performances.

Representing the Jackson estate, Howard Weitzman argued that Jackson himself made major contributions to the sound of each song, which rankled Jones, who testified that producers often take the blame for failures while artists get credit for hits.

Currently, the court is polling the jury on how they each answered the 28-question verdict form.

Following the verdict, Jones released the following statement:

“As an artist, maintaining the vision and integrity of one’s creation is of paramount importance. I, along with the team I assembled with Michael, took great care and purpose in creating these albums, and it has always given me a great sense of pride and comfort that three decades after they were originally recorded, these songs are still being played in every corner of the world. This lawsuit was never about Michael, it was about protecting the integrity of the work we all did in the recording studio and the legacy of what we created. Although this judgement is not the full amount that I was seeking, I am very grateful that the jury decided in our favor in this matter. I view it not only as a victory for myself personally, but for artists’ rights overall.”

I knew he wasn't going to be awarded 30 million

There was no question on that.....at least he didn't get juked all the way.....

PeteSilas said:

he also said something about "these are the kinds of things that happen when you don't have god in your life" about the mj situation. I swear, q is just like many of the mentors and would be mentors I've had, all hot air, they love to talk and hear themselves speak, they are very very sensitive when it comes to their feelings and respect they get and fuck everyone else. when you need them, they are gone and when it was over you ask yourself "what exactly did I get out of that?" eventually you learn not to let those assholes in your life to begin with.

mjscarousal said:

Q said that he only knew "Michael the artist, not the person". He said this when MJ was accused in 04. Why would you say that about someone you refer to as your brother and your friend? Why say that when they need your support IF you are suppose to be their friend? Q is a fake and a fuqing fraud, can't stand him. You are right, he is very stuck up and snotty. Michael was very appreciative/loyal to Q and always took the opportunity to give him his props for helping him with his success. Its sad MJ did not have any true friends.

[Edited 7/26/17 11:32am]

Yea Quincy was very brutal, he was clearly never a friend of Michaels. IMO, a mentor is someone who really cares about your wellbeing, they want what is best for you, they care about you and really want to help guide you in the right direction. I feel you about the mentor issue, I had one that was similiar. That is why you have to be confident in who you are, your values and where you want to go in your life because people will try to persuade you otherwise

PeteSilas said:

nothing could have been done to repeat the success of thriller, with or without q. I know that they argued over equipement, i happen to agree with some of q's points, his take was, new shit isn't always good, the most current thing might not have any staying power. also there were the popular arguement that q tried to get billy jean pulled as a single, he says it was a lie and that "I know where it came from". where did it come from? who'd want to lie about old lovely q? also, there was the story that michael said that q wanted rap on the bad album and that mike said q was "losing it" because rap was dying out, q, being the egomaniac he was, couldn't take the criticism. He was right of course, hip hop has taken over, but, a real secure person doesn't get deeply hurt by some random statement someone makes, that only happens when you have a toxic, huge ego. Believe me, I've had a mentor like that, when it came to my feelings everything was "oh it's not big deal" when it came to his needs it was a huge fucking deal. Like i said, i have q's number. In his book he states he was once kicked out of a popular chinese restaurant called ruby chows (bruce lee infamously worked there too) because he was black. He mentioned that He always wanted an apology for that, who the fuck wants an apology for some slight from 50 fucking years ago? especially when you have so much acclaim, so much money so much respect? I'm telling you, he's a wounded human being, I know his type.

Didn't he call out Jackie for the comment about Billie Jean? Quincy is NOT a fan of Joe and vice versa. Something else, I believe Frank Dileo was partly the cause of that tension. He was agreeing with Michael that Q was making pointless changes to certain mixes THEN going to Q telling him things Michael said (or didn't say, who knows)

That rap thing is interesting because Michael DID in fact agree to work with Run DMC and got along with them. The other version has been that Michael was skeptical of hip hop and didn't see how it would fit into his material. It wasn't until New Jack Swing hit big in '88 and when he heard guys like Heavy D and LL then his interest grew. Not only that, Saying rap was dead in '87 is pretty stupid don't you think? Michael read Billboard and Cashbox regularly and had a friendship with Cynthia Horner who covered rappers a lot in Right On

hold up, this fucker came in in a wheelchair? if i was there i would have wheeled his ass down the courtroom steps.

Scorp said:

bboy87 said:

....and Q got his money. Not 30 million though

http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/quincy-jones-verdict-michael-jackson-1202506100/

Veteran music producer Quincy Jones prevailed on Wednesday in his dispute over unpaid royalties with the estate of Michael Jackson.

A Los Angeles jury awarded Jones $9.42 ($9,423,695) million in damages, finding that he had been underpaid in royalties for music used in the “This Is It” documentary and two Cirque du Soleil shows.

Jones first sued in 2013, alleging that he was unfairly cut out of posthumous deals by Jackson’s estate to feature his music in the 2009 film and the Cirque shows. He said he was owed $30 million.

During the two-week trial, attorneys for both sides quibbled over how to interpret contract language that governed how Jones’ royalties were calculated.

Jones took the witness stand last week — entering the courtroom in a wheelchair — to explain his views on how he was “cheated out of a lot of money” by the Jackson estate. At issue was the interpretation of two contracts for the albums “Off the Wall,” “Thriller,” and “Bad.” Jones’ lawyers contended that his contracts entitle him to significant proceeds from “This Is It,” the backstage concert film released after Jackson’s death, as well as those from two Cirque du Soleil shows.

In handing down their verdict, the jury did not redefine what a “record” is. On the question of whether the Cirque shows or “This Is It” were considered “records,” the jury said no. As to what comprises a “video show” — “This Is It” is applicable, but not the Cirque performances.

Representing the Jackson estate, Howard Weitzman argued that Jackson himself made major contributions to the sound of each song, which rankled Jones, who testified that producers often take the blame for failures while artists get credit for hits.

Currently, the court is polling the jury on how they each answered the 28-question verdict form.

Following the verdict, Jones released the following statement:

“As an artist, maintaining the vision and integrity of one’s creation is of paramount importance. I, along with the team I assembled with Michael, took great care and purpose in creating these albums, and it has always given me a great sense of pride and comfort that three decades after they were originally recorded, these songs are still being played in every corner of the world. This lawsuit was never about Michael, it was about protecting the integrity of the work we all did in the recording studio and the legacy of what we created. Although this judgement is not the full amount that I was seeking, I am very grateful that the jury decided in our favor in this matter. I view it not only as a victory for myself personally, but for artists’ rights overall.”

I knew he wasn't going to be awarded 30 million

There was no question on that.....at least he didn't get juked all the way.....

q had the connections, he didn't write any of the songs, maybe he composed some of the arrangements, i think that's quite likely but MJ always, always brought the best songs on his albums, that's no mean admission when he had access to some great songwriters submitting their best stuff. I am familiar with rod temperton, the various studio musicians, the engineers and everything else but Michaels material not counting the whole image/dance/video stuff was the best and the strongest. Of course a tune like Beat it was taken to another level by the great van halen so again, we have a guy who had connections, q was a conman, a bullshitter, miles davis once mentioned how q could deal with all the situations necessary to do what he did, he didn't call him a bullshitter, but he may as well have. I acknowledge his impact but I could see why q said michael would say "i don't know what quincy does". q responded with his pseudo-svengali rap about how he could see music and see if it needed more or less, fuckers a bullshitter.

bboy87 said:

PeteSilas said:

yup, i've never forgiven q for the things he said after MJ died. and also, having had a mentor who was a lot like q, a guy who says all the right things but isn't about shit, that doesn't help either. I'm skeptical of all people in a leadership position now and i'd have it no other way. I still think q was a really sharp, talented guy, he's managed to put himself into many historical positions, you can't do that without some real good instincts and intelligence. He has had quite a life, in a way, his life is american history of the last 60 years, he knew ray charles pre-fame, he knew Malcolm X prefame, the list of talent he's been in contact with would put anyone to shame. He's also a fine producer, MJ brought the tunes but Quincy added some nice shit to them. Michael used to say "i don't know what quincy does" which is a cryptic statement and maybe was a portent of later troubles between the two because it just isn't that easy to pin down exactly what he did for michael. Of course he sponsored him, he put his name on him, he had a generations worth of hollywood contacts by the time mj got with him, he was a prolific composer. I just happen to think his ex-wife had a point when she called him a psychopath. Here is a guy who'll slap you on the back and yuck it all up but wont' go to your funeral because "it's enough". Not the kind of guy I want around. Unfortunately, in the celeb worshipping culture, there will always be people to kiss his ass, i mentioned his recent seattle trip, word was that he was just a real social whirlwind, talking to any and every musician who came up to hhim, showing great interest in their life stories. I think he's a conman at least to a degree.

It's pretty easy to pinpoint what Q brought to the table, especially on Off The Wall and Thriller.

He was the one who brought in the musicians and the writers like James Ingram, Tom Bahler, and of course Rod Temperton. He was the one who brought quality control, and helped give the albums direction. Picking the songs that were strongest and what needed to be done to get the best result. Also, he was the one got Michael connected with people like Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, and others.

Michael was getting stronger as an artist and Destiny and Triumph shows you the guy knew what he was doing. There were even talks that he was going to produce for Gladys Knight and The Pips, Barbara Streisand, and other s

By the time Bad, came around, that was more Michael than any of the three albums. He wrote most of the songs and he had worked on the material away from Q and the Westlake team to the point that by the time they got to Westlake, the songs were fully formed (He had been working on songs like Dirty Diana, Smooth Criminal, Speed Demon, Liberian Girl, and Another Part of Me for years.)

A recent article (and I posted in another thread) said Michael felt Q helped make him the artist that he was and he wanted to prove he could do it without Q. He was so adamant about his ideas that he took the tapes AWAY from the studio to his own studio to work on them, which Q did not like. They clashed on the equipment, on what songs made the cut, who worked in the studio with the team and even down to the album title.

It was time they both moved on. Q was ready to chill and Michael was ready to take more control.

[Edited 7/26/17 17:55pm]

commercially at least, there would never and will never be any topping of thriller. I don't know what greater heights mj could have achieved, I think the fame stifled him but he was always a great songwriter, the only things he could have done better was to learn an instrument, maybe get involved with movies more, I don't really know if he could have put out greater albums artistically, the ones he did were pretty damned good by anyone's measure.

Scorp said:

That's the thing, when the entertainment value is set aside, and all the hoopla and hysterica cast down, that's when everything becomes apparent and that's when eveything becomes clear as to exactly what's going on. When I first heard Will You Be There, those lyrics spoke volumes and I knew he was crying out.

The complaints about fame, I believe that was mostly schtick as you mentioned, and then part of it was the reality his career was not as successful after reaching what turned out to be the pinnacle of his career with Thriller.....Thriller should not have been his pinnacle achievement, that's where the story gets dicey, because he knew something was missing after that point, and the majority of his fans knew something was missing, that's why they put so much effort into making sure his latter works receives the same acclaim, recognition that his earlier work did .

The Pop Ascension he was thrust into was a whole other animal, that nobody could be prepared for. This is why he compared his plight to that of a whale in the movie Free Willy to serve as a metaphor for what was happened to him.......

In the same way the whale tried to break free of its confinement in a strange world, Michael tried breaking free of the shackles imposed on him by the Pop Ascension. The difference was that his confinement took on a more ominous form while casting this looming shadow.

PeteSilas said:

that's not how i interpreted it at the time, though you may be right. Michael did a lot of complaining about fame, it was part of his schtick, I never knew how seriously to take it. One more thing I'll say, I watched the tv special coinciding with the dangerous release, when he perforemed "will you be there for me" i still remember thinking that a time like that would never come for him, it didn't seem possible at that time. Little did we know trouble was right around the corner.

jackie jackson said that? hmm, i always suspected it was one of the other people in the studio. q was right about rap of course, the point is how tender his fucking feelings are, he was obviously hurt because he brings it up all the goddamned time.

bboy87 said:

PeteSilas said:

nothing could have been done to repeat the success of thriller, with or without q. I know that they argued over equipement, i happen to agree with some of q's points, his take was, new shit isn't always good, the most current thing might not have any staying power. also there were the popular arguement that q tried to get billy jean pulled as a single, he says it was a lie and that "I know where it came from". where did it come from? who'd want to lie about old lovely q? also, there was the story that michael said that q wanted rap on the bad album and that mike said q was "losing it" because rap was dying out, q, being the egomaniac he was, couldn't take the criticism. He was right of course, hip hop has taken over, but, a real secure person doesn't get deeply hurt by some random statement someone makes, that only happens when you have a toxic, huge ego. Believe me, I've had a mentor like that, when it came to my feelings everything was "oh it's not big deal" when it came to his needs it was a huge fucking deal. Like i said, i have q's number. In his book he states he was once kicked out of a popular chinese restaurant called ruby chows (bruce lee infamously worked there too) because he was black. He mentioned that He always wanted an apology for that, who the fuck wants an apology for some slight from 50 fucking years ago? especially when you have so much acclaim, so much money so much respect? I'm telling you, he's a wounded human being, I know his type.

Didn't he call out Jackie for the comment about Billie Jean? Quincy is NOT a fan of Joe and vice versa. Something else, I believe Frank Dileo was partly the cause of that tension. He was agreeing with Michael that Q was making pointless changes to certain mixes THEN going to Q telling him things Michael said (or didn't say, who knows)

That rap thing is interesting because Michael DID in fact agree to work with Run DMC and got along with them. The other version has been that Michael was skeptical of hip hop and didn't see how it would fit into his material. It wasn't until New Jack Swing hit big in '88 and when he heard guys like Heavy D and LL then his interest grew. Not only that, Saying rap was dead in '87 is pretty stupid don't you think? Michael read Billboard and Cashbox regularly and had a friendship with Cynthia Horner who covered rappers a lot in Right On

SoulAlive said:

9 million sounds like a reasonable amount.Not sure how Quincy came up with the $30 million anount...that seemed excessive to me,especially when you consider the millions that have already been paid to him since MJ's death Glad it's over [Edited 7/26/17 19:26pm]

that's just how it's done, they ask for a million times as much as they expect to get. he sounds happy, now he can go back to his blankie and tv dinners. fuck you q.

PeteSilas said:

q had the connections, he didn't write any of the songs, maybe he composed some of the arrangements, i think that's quite likely but MJ always, always brought the best songs on his albums, that's no mean admission when he had access to some great songwriters submitting their best stuff. I am familiar with rod temperton, the various studio musicians, the engineers and everything else but Michaels material not counting the whole image/dance/video stuff was the best and the strongest. Of course a tune like Beat it was taken to another level by the great van halen so again, we have a guy who had connections, q was a conman, a bullshitter, miles davis once mentioned how q could deal with all the situations necessary to do what he did, he didn't call him a bullshitter, but he may as well have. I acknowledge his impact but I could see why q said michael would say "i don't know what quincy does". q responded with his pseudo-svengali rap about how he could see music and see if it needed more or less, fuckers a bullshitter.

bboy87 said:

It's pretty easy to pinpoint what Q brought to the table, especially on Off The Wall and Thriller.

He was the one who brought in the musicians and the writers like James Ingram, Tom Bahler, and of course Rod Temperton. He was the one who brought quality control, and helped give the albums direction. Picking the songs that were strongest and what needed to be done to get the best result. Also, he was the one got Michael connected with people like Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, and others.

Michael was getting stronger as an artist and Destiny and Triumph shows you the guy knew what he was doing. There were even talks that he was going to produce for Gladys Knight and The Pips, Barbara Streisand, and other s

By the time Bad, came around, that was more Michael than any of the three albums. He wrote most of the songs and he had worked on the material away from Q and the Westlake team to the point that by the time they got to Westlake, the songs were fully formed (He had been working on songs like Dirty Diana, Smooth Criminal, Speed Demon, Liberian Girl, and Another Part of Me for years.)

A recent article (and I posted in another thread) said Michael felt Q helped make him the artist that he was and he wanted to prove he could do it without Q. He was so adamant about his ideas that he took the tapes AWAY from the studio to his own studio to work on them, which Q did not like. They clashed on the equipment, on what songs made the cut, who worked in the studio with the team and even down to the album title.

It was time they both moved on. Q was ready to chill and Michael was ready to take more control.

[Edited 7/26/17 17:55pm]

Right.

If I remember correctly, Q did the arrangements on a few of the songs, but the songs Michael wrote, Mike and his away team did much of it, especially on Bad. Bruce Swedien said anybody would be lucky to get a Michael Jackson esque demo because everything is there already.

PeteSilas said:

commercially at least, there would never and will never be any topping of thriller. I don't know what greater heights mj could have achieved, I think the fame stifled him but he was always a great songwriter, the only things he could have done better was to learn an instrument, maybe get involved with movies more, I don't really know if he could have put out greater albums artistically, the ones he did were pretty damned good by anyone's measure.

Scorp said:

That's the thing, when the entertainment value is set aside, and all the hoopla and hysterica cast down, that's when everything becomes apparent and that's when eveything becomes clear as to exactly what's going on. When I first heard Will You Be There, those lyrics spoke volumes and I knew he was crying out.

The complaints about fame, I believe that was mostly schtick as you mentioned, and then part of it was the reality his career was not as successful after reaching what turned out to be the pinnacle of his career with Thriller.....Thriller should not have been his pinnacle achievement, that's where the story gets dicey, because he knew something was missing after that point, and the majority of his fans knew something was missing, that's why they put so much effort into making sure his latter works receives the same acclaim, recognition that his earlier work did .

The Pop Ascension he was thrust into was a whole other animal, that nobody could be prepared for. This is why he compared his plight to that of a whale in the movie Free Willy to serve as a metaphor for what was happened to him.......

In the same way the whale tried to break free of its confinement in a strange world, Michael tried breaking free of the shackles imposed on him by the Pop Ascension. The difference was that his confinement took on a more ominous form while casting this looming shadow.

I agree with the fans who believe MJ seemed to make peace that he wasn't going to outsell Thriller by the time Invincible came around. His plans during the This Is It period and how he wasn't going to put out traditional albums anymore says that too.

with the following he had garnered with Thriller while receiving support of a new wave of music fans five years after the fact...the stage was set for his follow up to outsell it, as BAD was the most anticipated follow up album ever in the recording arts.....everything was there for it to happen......

and two months after BAD's release, the album had already sold 16 million copies worldwide, outpacing Thriller by a mile....and then the album hit the proverbial wall......because....................his appearance would take on the greatest degree of change at any point of his adult solo career and people were disturbed by it....that was the reality.......even with all the promotional backing, the solo tour, the videos for each major single release, the VHS specials, the Moonwalker video game, the performance at the 88 Grammys, the Sammy Davis Jr. Tribute, none of that was able to offset how people felt about what he was doing to himself, and that was as early as 1987-1988.....

To show how Thriller should not have been his pinnacle, fans of the past 20 plus years will suggest that Michael grew artistically after that period and that his music evolved into a greater state....if that's the case, that substantiates the conclusion that his pinnacle should have taken place later in his career

Take the transformation out the equation, there's no question in my mind that all of his albums after Thriller would have sold more than they actually did, especially domestic sales....there's no doubt about that......the pinnacle should have occurred at least 8-10 years after Thriller, which would have been during the time the album that became known as Dangerous occurred, and after Dangerous, he had resorted to the fact that his pinnacle occurred prematurely, and that led to his period of rebellious state during the years of History, and by the time he began working on Invincible, that album was geared towards regaining his former urban audience that made his pop success possible....

PeteSilas said:

commercially at least, there would never and will never be any topping of thriller. I don't know what greater heights mj could have achieved, I think the fame stifled him but he was always a great songwriter, the only things he could have done better was to learn an instrument, maybe get involved with movies more, I don't really know if he could have put out greater albums artistically, the ones he did were pretty damned good by anyone's measure.

Scorp said:

That's the thing, when the entertainment value is set aside, and all the hoopla and hysterica cast down, that's when everything becomes apparent and that's when eveything becomes clear as to exactly what's going on. When I first heard Will You Be There, those lyrics spoke volumes and I knew he was crying out.

The complaints about fame, I believe that was mostly schtick as you mentioned, and then part of it was the reality his career was not as successful after reaching what turned out to be the pinnacle of his career with Thriller.....Thriller should not have been his pinnacle achievement, that's where the story gets dicey, because he knew something was missing after that point, and the majority of his fans knew something was missing, that's why they put so much effort into making sure his latter works receives the same acclaim, recognition that his earlier work did .

The Pop Ascension he was thrust into was a whole other animal, that nobody could be prepared for. This is why he compared his plight to that of a whale in the movie Free Willy to serve as a metaphor for what was happened to him.......

In the same way the whale tried to break free of its confinement in a strange world, Michael tried breaking free of the shackles imposed on him by the Pop Ascension. The difference was that his confinement took on a more ominous form while casting this looming shadow.

[Edited 7/26/17 19:47pm]

PeteSilas said:

i don't quite know what you mean by the "doing to himself" thing, if it's the plastic surgery and the skin lightening, I don't think that hurt Bad's sales, it may have pissed off his black audience although, oddly, i didn't hear much talk of it at the time. we didn't have the net and the race issues weren't mentioned all that much in white publications and even black mags like ebony and jet had a habit of not criticizing black role models so i don't remember any mention in those mags about it. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I can't see how he could have possibly repeated the success of thriller, that was a one time unrepeatable thing.

Scorp said:

with the following he had garnered with Thriller while receiving support of a new wave of music fans five years after the fact...the stage was set for his follow up to outsell it, as BAD was the most anticipated follow up album ever in the recording arts.....everything was there for it to happen......

and two months after BAD's release, the album had already sold 16 million copies worldwide, outpacing Thriller by a mile....and then the album hit the proverbial wall......because....................his appearance would take on the greatest degree of change at any point of his adult solo career and people were disturbed by it....that was the reality.......even with all the promotional backing, the solo tour, the videos for each major single release, the VHS specials, the Moonwalker video game, the performance at the 88 Grammys, the Sammy Davis Jr. Tribute, none of that was able to offset how people felt about what he was doing to himself, and that was as early as 1987-1988.....

To show how Thriller should not have been his pinnacle, fans of the past 20 plus years will suggest that Michael grew artistically after that period and that his music evolved into a greater state....if that's the case, that substantiates the conclusion that his pinnacle should have taken place later in his career

Take the transformation out the equation, there's no question in my mind that all of his albums after Thriller would have sold more than they actually did, especially domestic sales....there's no doubt about that......the pinnacle should have occurred at least 8-10 years after Thriller, which would have been during the time the album that became known as Dangerous occurred, and after Dangerous, he had resorted to the fact that his pinnacle occurred prematurely, and that led to his period of rebellious state during the years of History, and by the time he began working on Invincible, that album was geared towards regaining his former urban audience that made his pop success possible....

PeteSilas said:

commercially at least, there would never and will never be any topping of thriller. I don't know what greater heights mj could have achieved, I think the fame stifled him but he was always a great songwriter, the only things he could have done better was to learn an instrument, maybe get involved with movies more, I don't really know if he could have put out greater albums artistically, the ones he did were pretty damned good by anyone's measure.

[Edited 7/26/17 19:47pm]

PeteSilas said:

i don't quite know what you mean by the "doing to himself" thing, if it's the plastic surgery and the skin lightening, I don't think that hurt Bad's sales, it may have pissed off his black audience although, oddly, i didn't hear much talk of it at the time. we didn't have the net and the race issues weren't mentioned all that much in white publications and even black mags like ebony and jet had a habit of not criticizing black role models so i don't remember any mention in those mags about it. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I can't see how he could have possibly repeated the success of thriller, that was a one time unrepeatable thing.

Scorp said:

with the following he had garnered with Thriller while receiving support of a new wave of music fans five years after the fact...the stage was set for his follow up to outsell it, as BAD was the most anticipated follow up album ever in the recording arts.....everything was there for it to happen......

and two months after BAD's release, the album had already sold 16 million copies worldwide, outpacing Thriller by a mile....and then the album hit the proverbial wall......because....................his appearance would take on the greatest degree of change at any point of his adult solo career and people were disturbed by it....that was the reality.......even with all the promotional backing, the solo tour, the videos for each major single release, the VHS specials, the Moonwalker video game, the performance at the 88 Grammys, the Sammy Davis Jr. Tribute, none of that was able to offset how people felt about what he was doing to himself, and that was as early as 1987-1988.....

To show how Thriller should not have been his pinnacle, fans of the past 20 plus years will suggest that Michael grew artistically after that period and that his music evolved into a greater state....if that's the case, that substantiates the conclusion that his pinnacle should have taken place later in his career

Take the transformation out the equation, there's no question in my mind that all of his albums after Thriller would have sold more than they actually did, especially domestic sales....there's no doubt about that......the pinnacle should have occurred at least 8-10 years after Thriller, which would have been during the time the album that became known as Dangerous occurred, and after Dangerous, he had resorted to the fact that his pinnacle occurred prematurely, and that led to his period of rebellious state during the years of History, and by the time he began working on Invincible, that album was geared towards regaining his former urban audience that made his pop success possible....

[Edited 7/26/17 19:47pm]

Exactly. He wasn't going to outdo Thriller. That was a phenomenom in itself. Markets and eras change. It's inevitable. Even up against Whitney's album, U2, George Michael, Bruce Springsteen, Def Leppard and the freakin' Dirty Dancing soundtrack, It was still considered a blockbuster.

Bad having 6 top 10 singles (and 5 #1 hits) and selling 36 million

Dangerous having 4 top 10 singles and selling close to Bad's sales

Moonwalker being the best selling music home video ever

HIStory being the best selling double album

Blood on The Dancefloor being the best selling remix album

The man was in the Guiness Book of Records as the most successful entertainer EVER. At this point, who cares that he didn't outsell Thriller?

Quincy Jones Wins Huge Cut of MJ's Hits ... Nearly $10 Million!! http://www.tmz.com/2017/0...oductions/

Quincy Jones suddenly has 9.4 million reasons to go off the wall ... after scoring a huge victory over MJJ Productions and Sony.

The jury handed down its thriller of a decision Wednesday in Quincy's legal battle for unpaid royalties on Michael Jackson's three mega hit albums. Quincy argued accountants for the defendants screwed him out of dough he was owed for producing those records.

He was asking for around $30 million, so he didn't get exactly what he wanted -- but still a nice payday.

You can say this about Q -- he really didn't stop until he got enough.

8:10 PM PT -- MJ's estate says the judgement is "too much" and "unfair to Michael Jackson's heirs."

Attorneys Howard Weitzman and Zia Modabber tell TMZ, "While the jury denied Quincy Jones $21 million – or more than two-thirds of what he demanded -- we still believe that giving him millions of dollars that he has no right to receive under his contracts is wrong."

This would reinterpret the legal language in, and effectively rewrite, contracts that Mr. Jones lived under for more than three decades, admitted he never read, referred to as 'contract, montract,' and told the jurors he didn't 'give a damn' about."

"Any amount above and beyond what is called for in his contracts is too much and unfair to Michael’s heirs. Although Mr. Jones is portraying this is a victory for artists’ rights, the real artist is Michael Jackson and it is his money Mr. Jones is seeking."

Quincy Jones Awarded $9.4 Million in Michael Jackson Royalty Trial http://www.billboard.com/...-9-million

The legendary producer had originally requested $30 million he claimed he was cheated out of since the King of Pop's death in 2009.

Iconic composer and music mogul Quincy Jones who produced Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad was calm and cool on Wednesday (July 26) as a Los Angeles courtroom jury awarded him $9.4 million in the trial against Michael Jackson's estate, claiming he was cheated out of royalties after the King of Pop died in 2009.

The award is not the $30 million the legendary producer was hoping for, but the amount reflects more than what the Jackson estate believed they should pay him. Jones, dressed in a gray suit and wearing a lavender dress shirt, looked at a verdict form and paid close attention during the verdict reading Wednesday afternoon.

In a statement given to The Hollywood Reporter Jones said, “As an artist, maintaining the vision and integrity of one’s creation is of paramount importance. I, along with the team I assembled with Michael, took great care and purpose in creating these albums, and it has always given me a great sense of pride and comfort that three decades after they were originally recorded, these songs are still being played in every corner of the world."

The deliberations, which began Monday afternoon after the closing arguments ended, cap off the three-week trial after Jones' years-long fight to prove that he was denied at least $30 million in royalties. Jones sued MJJ Productions in 2013, claiming that he was owed significant money and that he was wrongfully excluded from having the option to remix works he created with Jackson.

Following the verdict, Howard Weitzman and Zia Modabber, attorneys for the estate of Michael Jackson, said Jones should not have received the sum. "While the jury denied Quincy Jones $21 million – or more than two-thirds of what he demanded -- from The Estate of Michael Jackson, we still believe that giving him millions of dollars that he has no right to receive under his contracts is wrong," the pair said in a statement issued to Billboard.

The statement continues, "This would reinterpret the legal language in, and effectively rewrite, contracts that Mr. Jones lived under for more than three decades, admitted he never read, referred to as 'contract, montract,' and told the jurors he didn't 'give a damn' about. Any amount above and beyond what is called for in his contracts is too much and unfair to Michael’s heirs. Although Mr. Jones is portraying this is a victory for artists’ rights, the real artist is Michael Jackson and it is his money Mr. Jones is seeking."

Prior to the verdict, the estate had already conceded Jones was owed royalties of less than $400,000 due to accounting errors, but argued that the producer was not entitled to $30 million. Since Jackson's death, Jones has received about $18 million in royalties, according to court testimony given during the trial.

During the trial, jurors heard testimony from accounting experts, attorneys, music specialists, royalties specialists and the 84-year-old Jones, who took the stand last week to tell his story. Charming in demeanor, yet bold in his assertions that he was cheated out of millions, Jones spoke in court about his significant contributions to Jackson's musical catalog, which includes the ownership of the masters that are now managed by the estate.

Regardless of what the contracts said, Jones declared, the right thing has always been to pay him for his work, which has been exploited since Jackson's death. "Contract, montract," said Jones during his first day on the stand fast week. "If we made the record, we deserve to get paid." The albums in question were Off the Wall, Thriller, Bad and the This Is It soundtrack, in addition to two Cirque du Soleil shows.

Two contracts from 1978 and 1985 were at the center of the dispute between Jones and Jackson, with specific wording that at times seemed to have a variety of interpretations. The deals indicate that Jones is entitled to a share of record royalties from Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad. However, the dispute intensified because Jones believes that he should have always received shares from the profits of Jackson's 1991 joint venture with Sony. Additionally, Jones said he was also entitled to net profits from movies instead of licensing fees from the songs used in those projects.

Jones argued that the This Is It documentary concert film, which opened in theaters four months after Jackson's death, counted as a "video show" under his contract, which would have entitled him to a share of the net receipts. The Jackson legal team argued that the term is standard for music and irrelevant in Jones' appeal.

The jury had to closely examine Jones' contract, which indicates that the producer has the right of first refusal to remix any of the works he produced with Jackson, but the Jackson attorneys maintained that Jones' right was limited to remixes ordered by Sony at the time the albums were being produced.

Before deliberations began, Stern instructed the jury to consider the actions of the parties from the time that the contract was signed until the time when the dispute was initiated as a way to interpret what the words of the contract meant during that period. That directive played a key factor in the jury's final decisions as they looked at Jones, Jackson and MJJ and how they treated the business relationship from 1985 to 2013.

In a recent exclusive interview with Billboard, Jackson estate attorney Howard Weitzman said an appeal could be an option if the award handed to Jones was substantial.

"If he gets [major] money obviously there is a process post-trial," Weitzman said. "We'll take advantage of all that and sometime in the future if there is no relief there, then he'll get paid."

[Edited 7/26/17 21:44pm]

Goddess4Real said:

This is the whole crux of the problem....

his enormous black following continues to get slighted when they played the greatest role in providing the foundation for his success, a foundation that started with the Jackson Five debuting on the scene in 1969........this is why I continue to represent those who was there before myself, those who bought those 4 #1 singles by the droves in 1969-1970

The plastic surgery he had in obliterating his natural features turned a whole lot of people off, especially the black community during that time, the problem is, society who existed outside of that realm were shielded from that reality by those dictating press made sure those voices who expressed dissent were not going to be heard, because......that audience who made it possible were being phased out of the equation, and as of 2017, that audience is barely if ever mentioned at all

voices and feelings existed before the internet....in other words, there was plenty said on the streets about the subject, and many times, that's the greatest press there is

The plastic surgery extreme is the #1 factor in declining record sales, especially in his own country, this is why by the end of the 80s, he sought to become an international artist exclusively because he became convinced, or encouraged to do that in an attempt to compensate for the support he lost domestically, and that formula did not work in the grand scheme

It's easy to say Thriller was a one time phenomenon because everyone knows his record sales never reached that level again afterwards......but it's the WHY that few want to acknowledge...which means Thriller was NOT a phenomenon but a culimination of sorts that had been brewing for 14 years of talent cultivation and cultural prowess that fueled the circumstance...and MIchael Jackson sure didn't feel Thriller was a phenomenon because that day of its release, he felt that that album would become the greatest selling ever......that means his talent and the contribution of others who participated on that project brought that goal to fruition.

when something is a phenomenon, that's when something happens at such a level beyond one's control......that's not what should define what happened to Thriller because there were a number of highmarks and moments that caused that record to sale the way it did, unforgetable performances, groundbreaking videos, and exceptional music, and the fact that Michael Jackson was viewed as an adult and grown man.

PeteSilas said:

i don't quite know what you mean by the "doing to himself" thing, if it's the plastic surgery and the skin lightening, I don't think that hurt Bad's sales, it may have pissed off his black audience although, oddly, i didn't hear much talk of it at the time. we didn't have the net and the race issues weren't mentioned all that much in white publications and even black mags like ebony and jet had a habit of not criticizing black role models so i don't remember any mention in those mags about it. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I can't see how he could have possibly repeated the success of thriller, that was a one time unrepeatable thing.

Scorp said:

with the following he had garnered with Thriller while receiving support of a new wave of music fans five years after the fact...the stage was set for his follow up to outsell it, as BAD was the most anticipated follow up album ever in the recording arts.....everything was there for it to happen......

and two months after BAD's release, the album had already sold 16 million copies worldwide, outpacing Thriller by a mile....and then the album hit the proverbial wall......because....................his appearance would take on the greatest degree of change at any point of his adult solo career and people were disturbed by it....that was the reality.......even with all the promotional backing, the solo tour, the videos for each major single release, the VHS specials, the Moonwalker video game, the performance at the 88 Grammys, the Sammy Davis Jr. Tribute, none of that was able to offset how people felt about what he was doing to himself, and that was as early as 1987-1988.....

To show how Thriller should not have been his pinnacle, fans of the past 20 plus years will suggest that Michael grew artistically after that period and that his music evolved into a greater state....if that's the case, that substantiates the conclusion that his pinnacle should have taken place later in his career

Take the transformation out the equation, there's no question in my mind that all of his albums after Thriller would have sold more than they actually did, especially domestic sales....there's no doubt about that......the pinnacle should have occurred at least 8-10 years after Thriller, which would have been during the time the album that became known as Dangerous occurred, and after Dangerous, he had resorted to the fact that his pinnacle occurred prematurely, and that led to his period of rebellious state during the years of History, and by the time he began working on Invincible, that album was geared towards regaining his former urban audience that made his pop success possible....

[Edited 7/26/17 19:47pm]

bboy87 said:

PeteSilas said:

i don't quite know what you mean by the "doing to himself" thing, if it's the plastic surgery and the skin lightening, I don't think that hurt Bad's sales, it may have pissed off his black audience although, oddly, i didn't hear much talk of it at the time. we didn't have the net and the race issues weren't mentioned all that much in white publications and even black mags like ebony and jet had a habit of not criticizing black role models so i don't remember any mention in those mags about it. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I can't see how he could have possibly repeated the success of thriller, that was a one time unrepeatable thing.

Exactly. He wasn't going to outdo Thriller. That was a phenomenom in itself. Markets and eras change. It's inevitable. Even up against Whitney's album, U2, George Michael, Bruce Springsteen, Def Leppard and the freakin' Dirty Dancing soundtrack, It was still considered a blockbuster.

Bad having 6 top 10 singles (and 5 #1 hits) and selling 36 million

Dangerous having 4 top 10 singles and selling close to Bad's sales

Moonwalker being the best selling music home video ever

HIStory being the best selling double album

Blood on The Dancefloor being the best selling remix album

The man was in the Guiness Book of Records as the most successful entertainer EVER. At this point, who cares that he didn't outsell Thriller?

During its initial run from 1987 through March of 1989, Bad sold 25 million copies worldwide, close to a 50% drop in sales and this is why everyone in sight got canned, producer, manager and all

it's easy to say who cares that he didn't outsell Thriller, because he sure cared, and he cared allot. He cared when he released Bad, he cared after releasing Dangerous, and as a result, he went stone cold rebellion mode during History and if fans read between the lines of the lyrics to allot of the songs from that album, he would begin to reveal the slightest hint of having second thoughts embracing the full scale Pop association. and as he said by that point, by the mid 90s, he was "all abandoned in my fame"

The fact is the plastic surgery extreme and his transformation caused a steady declilne in support and the trajectory showed in the sales of all his albums after Thriller.....not to mention health concerns that stripped away the entertainment value to where he couldn't perform freely anymore.

and fans of today, they just need to be honest and stop beating around the bush and say they preferred his transformational look vs his natural being, because that's the reality

mike also did a lot of things to come across as eccentric, that really hurt him, not just the skin and plastic surgery thing. the elephant man's bones and stuff like that, mike found a way to manipulate the press with the hyperbaric chamber, but he didn't know when to quit and so it hurt him when those stories wouldn't stop, in spite of what they say all press isn't good press. i couldn't tell you what black folks were syaing about mj at the time of bad, i was just entering adulthoood and all the black folks i was around growing up were gone. teddy riley said that mike said he regreetted it all at the time of dangerous, meaning the surgeries, teddy supposedly told him that he couldn't do anything about it at that point. would have been interesting being a fly on the wall for those kinds of conversations.

Scorp said:

This is the whole crux of the problem....

his enormous black following continues to get slighted when they played the greatest role in providing the foundation for his success, a foundation that started with the Jackson Five debuting on the scene in 1969........this is why I continue to represent those who was there before myself, those who bought those 4 #1 singles by the droves in 1969-1970

The plastic surgery he had in obliterating his natural features turned a whole lot of people off, especially the black community during that time, the problem is, society who existed outside of that realm were shielded from that reality by those dictating press made sure those voices who expressed dissent were not going to be heard, because......that audience who made it possible were being phased out of the equation, and as of 2017, that audience is barely if ever mentioned at all

voices and feelings existed before the internet....in other words, there was plenty said on the streets about the subject, and many times, that's the greatest press there is

The plastic surgery extreme is the #1 factor in declining record sales, especially in his own country, this is why by the end of the 80s, he sought to become an international artist exclusively because he became convinced, or encouraged to do that in an attempt to compensate for the support he lost domestically, and that formula did not work in the grand scheme

It's easy to say Thriller was a one time phenomenon because everyone knows his record sales never reached that level again afterwards......but it's the WHY that few want to acknowledge...which means Thriller was NOT a phenomenon but a culimination of sorts that had been brewing for 14 years of talent cultivation and cultural prowess that fueled the circumstance...and MIchael Jackson sure didn't feel Thriller was a phenomenon because that day of its release, he felt that that album would become the greatest selling ever......that means his talent and the contribution of others who participated on that project brought that goal to fruition.

when something is a phenomenon, that's when something happens at such a level beyond one's control......that's not what should define what happened to Thriller because there were a number of highmarks and moments that caused that record to sale the way it did, unforgetable performances, groundbreaking videos, and exceptional music, and the fact that Michael Jackson was viewed as an adult and grown man.

PeteSilas said:

i don't quite know what you mean by the "doing to himself" thing, if it's the plastic surgery and the skin lightening, I don't think that hurt Bad's sales, it may have pissed off his black audience although, oddly, i didn't hear much talk of it at the time. we didn't have the net and the race issues weren't mentioned all that much in white publications and even black mags like ebony and jet had a habit of not criticizing black role models so i don't remember any mention in those mags about it. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I can't see how he could have possibly repeated the success of thriller, that was a one time unrepeatable thing.