Unholyalliance said:

RKJCNE said:

I guess you are able to see past the image where I'm not. More power to you!

I think it's a little disappointing when people get so caught up in the image and can't see past it. This is why I don't get myself caught up in that shit. I like to be able to experience a piece of art and just appreciate it for what it is instead of getting caught up in unnecessary nonsense. Could you imagine not enjoying Madonna's music, because of her bitchy image? Or not enjoying Prince because of his? Or not enjoying hip hop simply because you think that ALL rappers are a bunch of idiotic thugs? I feel that line of thinking leads into other narrow-minded approaches/views in one's life.

I am curoius to know what people's reactions to about TDRCAU I mean it's a song about discrimination in which he himself uses discriminitory language. Am I the only one bothered by that?

It's about context. Not because it's MJ, but I would afford that to any artist. At the end of the day, it's just really a word. It's about how much meaning you give it.

Example: in Lady Gaga's Born This Way, she did use some less than desirable terms to refer to a whole bunch of people. Even though 'orient' and 'chola' are not racial slurs but I mean who is of 'chola' descent and wtf is up with using the terms 'orient' in this day and age? It's the same as referring to someone as being 'colored.' That to me is way more offensive than MJ's use of actual racial slurs since Lady Gaga was actively referring to groups of people rather than MJ who was being metaphoriocal about it.

What's even more fucked up is that no one barely said anything, because stereotypical images of Hispanic/Latinos and Asians are still accepted in Western media. Yet MJ got criticized up his ass for it.

I'm glad we can have a calm discussion about this!

I understand how you relate it to Prince and Madonna, both of which have somewhat unrespectable qualities. I understand it's frustrating when someone doesn't like an artist that you like. And I want to share why I don't like MJ's image but I generally hold back on this board because of the many fans here, but truth be told I think he is a pedophile. I understand that it was never proven and that it's not the most solid case. I just think he is. He's fraile speaking voice and constant plastic surgery combined with the amount of time he spent with children gives me the creeps. For me that's something much harder to over look than Madonna being an uber bitch or Prince being some kind of Xenophobe.

I understand what you mean by Context too, but the fact is MJ used two offensive terms about one race in his song, Gaga spends the entire song about different races and orientations. I think her context is alot clearer than MJ's. I don't think it's just a word though, nothing is more important to me the civil rights and equality and the heavyness behind words like that need to be understood and not used lightly. I never thought MJ has a malicious intent behind it at all, I just thought it was pure ignorance.

In that case, you should be scared for all the children that interact with male workers and fathers.

RKJCNE said:

I'm glad we can have a calm discussion about this!

"Kike me" has nothing racist in itself. The song - an aggressive, the song about the problems in the world and the problems of the Michael, the song about the contempt to the man and his rights.
Jews suffered in the 20th century more than any other nation, they were oppressed and killed in large numbers.
So Michael has chosen this comparison.
Spiritual guide of Michael was a Jew, most friends - too. To accuse him of anti-Semitism - is just silly!

I'm not talking about pedophilia, because I understand that you are specifically provoke and realize that none of us knows the truth, it`s just impossible. Talk about things unknown to us is a childish and absolutely useless.

But I understand why you accent attention to complex and controversial personality MJ. This is simply because talk about creativity and talent, you absolutely no advantage, because, obviously,

MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No contest.

RKJCNE said:

I'm glad we can have a calm discussion about this!

I understand how you relate it to Prince and Madonna, both of which have somewhat unrespectable qualities. I understand it's frustrating when someone doesn't like an artist that you like.

I don't find this to be frustrating in the least. People have their own opinions. Maybe for some yeah, because I think that people take it as a some form of rejection?!?!?! I don't know. Sometimes, I think that when people dislike certain artists it's for some really ridiculous reasons though. I mean, you don't even know them on a personal level. How can you dislike someone you never met before?

I also don't understand disliking an entire artist's discography either or an entire genre OR (the worst) disliking something, because it's popular. In that case, I feel, that the person with said dislike does have their head in their ass, because they're making broad generalizations.

In your case though, it's like "I don't like his image; therefore I hate his work." Like what?!?!?! I mean...I guess it would be different if it was like an actual criticism of the work itself that was seperate from a criticism from this man who you did not know on a personal level you know? I understand for many people it is hard to seperate those things. I just feel sorry for them for being mentally unable to seperate the two.

This is why, as I said before I don't bother with those things. Doing so taints your opinion of the work because you will always associate the two of them.

And I want to share why I don't like MJ's image but I generally hold back on this board because of the many fans here, but truth be told I think he is a pedophile. I understand that it was never proven and that it's not the most solid case. I just think he is. He's fraile speaking voice and constant plastic surgery combined with the amount of time he spent with children gives me the creeps. For me that's something much harder to over look than Madonna being an uber bitch or Prince being some kind of Xenophobe.

While I disagree, I respect your opinion. When you start using something like that as a valid criticism of the music is when I think it's narrow-minded though. Simply put.

I understand what you mean by Context too, but the fact is MJ used two offensive terms about one race in his song, Gaga spends the entire song about different races and orientations. I think her context is alot clearer than MJ's.

=/

How can you justify Gaga's use of a racially insensitive term to refer to Asians and then claim 'chola' as a descent and then to say MJ was wrong for using Jewish racial slurs when he was doing was comparing his own plight to theirs? It's one thing if Born This Way had used other slurs to refer to other people, but she didn't. It was just those two.

I think that Mjscarousel was right. You are really biased.

To choose secret over scream is all personal taste , but to say that MJ never grew up as an artist is laughable and pure ignornace......

Unholyalliance said:

LiLi1992 said:

I think MJ is VERY grown as a songwriter in the 90s, compared with 80s.

Stranger in Moscow, will you be there, Earth Song - among the best songs he created for his entire career.

History - a dark, aggressive, angry album. It is unlike any previous one.

I much prefer his work 90s.

[Edited 10/10/11 6:58am]

Yeah this.

So, considering that, I just think that the whole 'he hasn't grown as an artist since Thriller' argument is kinda moot. HIStory and Thriller don't even sound anything alike imo. I also always thought that MJ's music always reflected the times save for HIStory.

I think that they both grew as artists. I never listen to any of their albums and ever thought to myself; "Wow...this sounds like the same shit on the other albums I just heard."

Sure !!!!

when you create timeless songs , songs before their time ( do I need to mention " leave me alone "....the layers on chorus used on the track were before their time..just to mention one song ) , then you are absolutely an innovator and an artist who grew up immensely......Stanger in moscow , Little susie , earth song , They don't care about us , dirty diana , liberian girl are all pure indication that MJ grew up as an artist especially when he was the songwriter of all those tracks .........

I never took madonna seriously as an artist , Never , Just beacause she covered more daring subjects on her already forgotten songs doesn't mean that she grew more as an artist !..LOL