bboy87 said:

i know! damn how informatmtion can get twisted


I cannot say what evidence found at Neverland Ranch was officially presented at trial of the top of my head but apparently the following is an offical list of evidence that was found at the ranch. Whether it was or was not presented at trial I am not sure. However, whether it was presented or not to me does not matter as there are sometimes many legal loopholes which preclude evidence from being presented. What is important to me, is the list of items found at Neverland. This, in and of itself is enough for me to form an opinion. See below. This is from a website that listed the partial items seized:


This is only a partial list of what was found in the Neverland search.
I emphasize that: a partial list.
I’ve summarized the official descriptions of these pieces of evidence,
hence the numerous elipses.

A few points of interest to note:

1. Contrary to the f’loons claims, a number of nudie male materials were found. Remember, this is just part of the list, it doesn’t include, for instance, some of the nude guy materials we already know about.

2. MJ had Macauley’s photo in his _bathroom_. Where a lot of his porn was found (plus some bottles of booze not included in this particular list). This, f’loons, is the bathroom used by the boys who spent time in MJ’s bedroom.

3. The cops retrieved a couple of bags containing, among other things, bloody bedsheets and nine pairs of men’s underwear from the *library area of the upstairs video/arcade room*!

4. This partial list goes far to illustrate how Neverland was _loaded_ with porn. They found it everywhere. Note that most of it was freely available to kids. Very little was locked up.

5. Check out the drug stuff. It’s well known that MJ has a substance abuse problem, and that he’s hooked on Xanax. Look at all the prescriptions found in other people’s names. Note that his bestest, most favorite DERMATOLOGIST buddy doctor – Dr. Arnold Klein – wrote a prescription for Xanax for MJ’s dear friend Frank Tyson, which was found in MJ’s possession. What’s a dermatologist doing writing a scrip for mood-altering drug?
Also note that a Las Vegas physician wrote two other scrips for Xanax, *neither* of which were in MJ’s name, but both of which were found in his possession.
And Dr. Klein wrote another prescription for another person whose given address was actually that of a television production company!
Plus the syringe. Plus the ‘unidentified substance’ which was sent off to the state lab for testing.
Plus the letter from MJ’s physician about detox programs.
Put it all together and what do you get?

Here we go:
Item number 301…five DVD media covers…the covers indicated the contents were films from the Hustler ‘Barely Legal’ series…

…Item number 302 was described as a pornographic magazine located within the master bathroom at the Neverland Ranch residence. …I found it to be a periodical entitled, ‘The Best of Club’…

…Item number 303..three books that contained nude photographs, found in the master bedroom within the Neverland Ranch… …the first book was… titled Scenes D’Interieur…The book consisted of a compilation of photographs of nude and/or semi-nude women, in sexually explicit poses.
…The second book was…Camp Cove – Photos Sydney Men… the book was a compilation of naked and semi-naked men…
…The third book was…titled Dressup: Playacts and Fantasies of Childhood. …This book appeared to be a compilation of photographs that appeared to depict either pre-teen or early teen age individuals. Some of the pictured children were nude and/or semi-nude.

…Item Number 304. This item was described as being two pornographic magazines and two nude art books found in the master bathroom at the Neverland Ranch. …The Gynoids appeared to have a fetish (bondage, sadomasochism, piercings, etc.) related theme.

…Item number 305…a photograph of Macauley Culkin, which was located in the master bathroom…

…Item number 306…a pornographic magazine located within a metal brief case in the master bathroom…

…Item number 307…a book, which contained nude photographs of men…found in the master bathroom…titled Bidgood…a compilation of photographs of nude and semi-nude men.

…Item Number 309…a black leather bag, which contained pornographic magazines and pornographic DVDs.

…Within a separate compartment within this front portion of the briefcase…a 5cc syringe (no needle).

…On the reverse side of the briefcase was a compartment that contained miscellaneous loose papers and envelopes.
…There was a postcard depicting young boys (clothed) lined up at a urinal.

…The main compartment contained miscellaneous paperwork, pornographic periodicals…and two DVD cases that appeared to contain pornographic material…the first DVD was titled Michael Ryan’s Believe It Or Not…the second DVD was titled Sloppy Dogs Presents: Fuck Me, I’m A Bad Girl.

…a letter from a student Councilor/Teacher…wrote of a desire to bring a group of children to California for the purposes of meeting with Michael Jackson.

…a greeting card from Erma J. Lardydell…the writer indicated she sang with Michael Jackson and provided the name of her son, Prince Alba, who was thirteen years of age…

…The final items within this compartment were the May 2002 issue of Gallery and the September 2002 issue of Gallery.

Item Number 313…a book that contained nude photographs. This item was located in the master bathroom…This book was titled Naked As A Jaybird…some of the pictures depicted sexually explicit activities.

…Item Number 505. This item was described as being three books with photographs of nude and partially clothed children. This item was found in the downstairs cellar area of the video/arcade area.

Item number 508…a book depicting nude children…titled The Fourth Sex, Adolescent Extremes…some of the pictures depicted individuals wearing no clothing, or in a state of partial dress…

Item Number 509…a book…titled Cronos…the book appeared to be a compilation of numerous photographs depicting men, women, and children of both sexes…the majority of the photographs depicted the subjects completely unclothed, including the male and female children…

…Item Number 510…two bags of miscellaneous underclothes and bloodied bed linen…located in the upstairs library room of the video/arcade area. The Disneyland bag contained a red Prada brand, long-sleeve shirt…I also found the bag to contain a white cotton sheet with reddish brown stains on it, which I believed were consistent with blood staining. The Garden City Hotel bag had a white Harbor Bay long-sleeved cotton shirt; a folded cotton bed sheet…and numerous pairs of size 30 cotton briefs…in total, there were nine pair of men’s cotton brief underwear. Some of the briefs had discolorations and/or stains, but all pairs appeared to have been washed.

Item number 514…the glass vial…seemed to contain remnants of a substance…submitted to the California…Crime Laboratory…

Item Number 515…medicine bottles, found in the upstairs library room of the video arcade area…four prescription bottles…

…the first bottle indicated the prescription was prescribed to a subject named Michael Armstrong…the prescription was for Percocet…

…the second bottle…to Peter Midani…it should be noted this address was also associated with a Grace Rwarambu (the nanny) …the location is actually a television production company…prescribing physician was a Dr. Klein…contained Prednisone…

…third bottle prescribed to ‘M.M.’…contents were…’Erytab’…
…fourth bottle indicated the intended recipient of the prescription was Frank Tyson…Dr. Arnold Klein…Beverly Hills…prescribed this medication…The prescription was for Alprazolam …

Item Number 518…prescription paperwork…a prescription for Frank Tyson…for Alprazolam…prescribing physician was Dr. William VanValin…a prescription for a Manuel Rivera…for Xanax…the prescribing physician was a Dr. William VanValin.

Item Number 349…paperwork found within the master bathroom…letter is addressed to ‘Dearest MJ’…the letter indicated it was from Dr. Farshchian…The letter pertains to a ‘program’ for outpatient detoxification…

Item Number 1001…Barely Legal magazine…found in the museum/office area…

Item number 1002…a magazine, found in the museum/office area…the December 2002 issue of ‘Naughty Neighbors’…

Item #365…two hardbound books…’Robert Maxwell Photographs’…’The Christy Report Exploring The Outer Edges of the Sexual Experience’…

Item Number 366…several books and magazines…located within the master bedroom/den area…
…five copies of ‘The Nudist’…contained nude photographs of men, women, and children…

…19 copies of ‘The Nudist, Sunshine and Health’…contained photographs of nude men, women, and children…

…one magazine titled ‘Solair Universelle Day Nudisme’…contained photographs of nude men, women, and children…

…a magazine titled ‘American Sunbather’…contained photographs of nude men, women, and children…

…three issues of ‘Eden’…contained photographs of nude men, women, and children…

…a softcover book…titled Man, a Sexual Study of Man…depicted naked males engaged in sexually explicit activities including oral copulation and anal sex…

…a softcover book…titled Taormina Wilhelm Von Gloeden…a compilation of photographs, which depicted both adult and juvenile males, who were posed in the nude…

…a softcover book…titled The Golden Age Of Neglect…the sexual behavior depicted in this book contained photography which depicted both male and female subjects, in various stages of undress, including full nudity. Some of the photographs depicted sexually explicit activity, including oral sex, masturbation, and digital penetration…the subjects appear to be within the age range of late adolescence to early adults…

…hard cover book…titled Before the Hand of Man…a compilation of photographs which depict nude males… hard cover book…titled Bob and Rod…a compilation of photographs of two adult males, who for the most part, were pictured in full and partial nudity…

MJ once wrote a note to his late sister-in-law:
“Dee Dee Please read this article about child malestation [sic] and please read it to Taj, T.S. and Tarryl [her children]. It brings out how even your own reletives [sic] can be malesters [sic] of children, or even uncle or aunts malesting [sic] nephew or nieces. Please read.”

http://www.courttv.com/ne...y2/17.html
[Edited 10/10/09 20:48pm]

For those of you who believe he's a pedophile I just want to know, when it comes to Macauley Culkin, Brett Barnes, Emanual, and the like, do you believe he picked and chose who he would molest and they werent part of it, or do you think they're lying when they say that he didnt? I've always been curious about there opinion on that. I just think out of all the boys Macauley was the one he was most taken with, of course I don't mean that in a sexual way as I don't believe he was a pedophile but I look at it as the way your taken with a friend, like a best friend. But someone who views him as having more sinister thoughts I wonder what there view on that is.

Arnotts said:

If you agree with me that he was giving his opinion in the present tense then there was really no reason for you to respond to me at all. We agree. He didn't like her.

Arnotts said:

My personal opinion is that Culkin,Emmanuel Lewis, etc. lied about what went on with MJ. They had reputations to protect as well as they were also in the public eye. Other boys who were not famous that said nothing happened with Jackson either I think they were paid off or it is possible that they as individuals did not have any issues of sexual molestation with MJ, However, this does not mean many other boys were not molested by MJ.In other words if you find 3 boys out of 10 that said MJ did not molest them, there may be another 7 boys that were molested and refused to say anything about it for whatever reasons--i.e. paid off, ec.

lavenderfields said:

Well at least you concede that it is possible he had a sexual relationship with LMP, even though you believe he could still be gay. It's true there are lots of gay men that do and can have sexual relationships with women. That's the difference between someone like you and Midnightmover. Midnightmover believes and convince he is 100% right that MJ could not have a relationship with any woman because he was gay.

Now, I don't believe MJ was some playa, like some fans do, and he had women left, right and centre, he clearly wasn't a casanova. But if he was gay and had a double life, where are all the gay lovers? Why haven't they come out now and spoken up? There is more proof that he and Grace, the Nanny were lovers than him and any man.

lavenderfields said:

Dude you made account just for this shit. What reputations to Culkin and emmanuel lewis have lol. I remember all the drugs that culkin was on at some point and how he came on TV and said he saw dead people like the kid from sixth sense. He also went to the funeral.
[Edited 10/10/09 21:07pm]

Arnotts said:

My personal opinion is that Culkin,Emmanuel Lewis, etc. lied about what went on with MJ. They had reputations to protect as well as they were also in the public eye. Other boys who were not famous that said nothing happened with Jackson either I think they were paid off or it is possible that they as individuals did not have any issues of sexual molestation with MJ, However, this does not mean many other boys were not molested by MJ.In other words if you find 3 boys out of 10 that said MJ did not molest them, there may be another 7 boys that were molested and refused to say anything about it for whatever reasons--i.e. paid off, ec.

midnightmover said:

Yes but there was more to my point then that. I was getting at why I dont think this was such a stab at Madonna like you were making out. She out of everyone knows how difficult she was back then. She has sung about it in many songs since. I think she wouldnt be offended over it as many people openly voiced the same things about her back in the day. I don't think it will change her opinion or her love for him.

lavenderfields said:

This came out in 2003 and notice how much of it has been proved correct since MJ's death. For instance the numerous prescription drugs fraudulently prescribed for Mike under false names by his dermatologist. It's also worth mentioning that this corrupt dermatologist is the same man who would have been handling Mike's whitened skin. The revelations about his character only make it more likely that he aided and abetted Michael in his skin bleaching.
[Edited 10/10/09 21:05pm]

midnightmover said:

I think he did admit that he helped MJ with his skin bleaching on Larry King.
The whole cast of characters around MJ just go from bad to worse. He was hanging with some pretty shady people!

midnightmover said:

I think he did admit that he helped MJ with his skin bleaching on Larry King.
The whole cast of characters around MJ just go from bad to worse. He was hanging with some pretty shady people!

Arnotts said:

How can it not be a stab at her when he is blatantly saying she's not nice and is jealous of him? Your quibble seems to be more with the accuracy of Mike's assessment than anything else. Since you feel he based his opinion on his past experiences you maybe feel he was wrong to still judge her on that. Frankly, that's a seperate discussion. The POINT is that Michael did not like Madonna. That's why he broke off their relationship in 1991. Because he didn't like her. And this tape makes it clear that ten years later.... he STILL didn't like her.

midnightmover said:

Lets just put it this way, if I set out to be blatantly provocative to someone, told a shy insecure man that I masturbated to him and 'this is the finger I used', told kids to get lost who wanted our autographs and then told the press that he was gay and looked like a space alien drag queen, I wouldnt be surpised either if he didnt like me too much. Thats my point. Madonna intentionally tried to draw something out of him by being nasty. It didnt work and it backfired. I think she will be understanding of that.

lavenderfields said:

please. mac, emmanuel and etc. wouldn't continue to hang around someone who hurt them. michael was obviously like a big brother to them, he was their friend they were just all big kids together.

you make it seem like there were many people paid, there was one kid and we don't know the details cause no one is allowed to speak about it. but it's suspicious that when michael stops financing the 2nd accusers family that's when he was accused. michael had been paying for that kids cancer treatments and everything, it's sick what people will do for money. when ur child is abused u don't ask for money or wait years until making a complaint.

lavenderfields said:

He chose to hang with shady people because he himself was shady. These people did not force themselves on him.

Arnotts said:

i like madonna now bushe was too damn much in the 90's. another reason janet didn;t like her(i don't know if she's changed her mind)

mimi07 said:

How in the world do you know Culkin or E. Lewis would not continue to hang with MJ? Pedophiles have a whole method of seduction used and it is possible both of them were caught up in this seduction process as well. Also I remember reading that E.Lewis' mother put a stop to her son's relationship with MJ when she heard that they were going to check into a hotel as father and son.
Another point is that once the kids MJ liked reached a certain age--i.e. past 13 or so, he did not continue his relationship with them as "special friends" so that in itself would put an end to these relationships. Yes I know apparently Culkin did continue some sort of friendship with MJ years after puberty, so what? This is not proof of anything in and of itself.

Also, there WERE many families of kids that MJ paid off. It was not just one as you are suggesting. If you have read a lot about MJ over the years, there were many families that were paid off. This stuff does not become public knowledge.When you are wealthy you can pay people off and nobody is the wiser.

mimi07 said:

Exactly, and she knows she was too damn much too. She wanted a strong reaction, and she definitley got it. I think shes been trying to make up for it since the Ray Of Light days, which coincidently happens to be when Lourdes was born. Just like Michael said had probably happened.

whatsgoingon said:

Stop lying! I've said a million times that I think he had sex with Lisa Marie. The fact that you are misrepresenting me so brazenly shows why your posts can't be taken seriously. First you resort to wild speculations about my sexuality, then to complete lies about my arguments. Like most MJ defenders you have an appalling lack of integrity.

midnightmover said:

True enough. I totally agree with you.

midnightmover said:

I am doing what you are doing; being presumptious. And please do not lump us all together, I am very objective about MJ, more objective than most. I don't think it was right him sharing his bed with children, regardless of their sex, I can't stand what he did to his face and I still think the two eldest children(P&P) are not biologically his, but they are just my opinions.

Considering I have been following MJ since his J5 days I have a great deal of knowledge about MJ, more than alot of people on this forum, but at the end of the day I still didn't know him personally, neither did his hardest core fans and neither did you, so stop pretending you did.

whatsgoingon said:

By the same logic I ask you, where are all the women that MJ had sex with and why aren't they coming forward? I am sure confidentiality agreements were signed and that is why no men or women have come forward.
Also what evidence is there that MJ slept with his nanny? I do not see any solid evidence suggesting this.

Arnotts said:

Do you think Madonna really cares about what she did or did not say to MJ and vice versa? Both of them are all about publicity and spin. Haven't you ever heard of the expression that there is no bad publicity? If the media is talking about you it is good and keeps you relevant. Madonna and MJ(before he became too heavily drug-induced), were both shrewd business people. Believe me the majority of stuff that was presented to the press on behalf of either one of them was done with their full knowledge and intent. It is all a game in the name of publicity.

whatsgoingon said:

Do not flatter yourself by grouping yourself with me. You are making totally inaccurate statements about me that are clearly wrong. The fact that you made two FALSE personal attacks against me shows that you are so desperate to shield yourself from my logic that you'll resort to the lowest and most dishonest tactics.

lavenderfields said:

I am not saying he was a casanova, read my post again, but when you look at it, the proof that he was gay is not concrete either. Where are all the gay lovers?

As for the nanny, I am not saying they were lovers, but considering she shared the parenting with MJ and the children ended up calling her "mum" we could just as well as assume she was his lover. That's the thing everything we are saying are assumptions not facts and we shouldn't try and make them into facts.

midnightmover said:

Oh please, if you didn't put yourself on such a pedalstall and try convince the forum your theories and opinions were whole load of facts, instead of just theories and opinions I wouldn't make any assumptions about you, in the first place.

whatsgoingon said:

There is a big difference. No one here has claimed MJ had a relationship with an adult male. Saying he's gay is not the same as saying he had a boyfriend. YOU on the other hand are saying he may have had an affair with his nanny even though you have no evidence for that at all. That is a big difference. It's a sign of your intellectual bankruptcy that you can't see that.

lavenderfields said:

I just took another look at that list you posted and it's so detailed, so specific and parts of it have so clearly been validated over time (the parts about Klein for instance) that it makes things look even worse for MJ than I thought. This material should be more widely available.

midnightmover said:

How does that indicate any more that he was guilty? It's still not evidence that he molested them. It is all based on what your feeling on Michael personally is anyway, which is why I usually never bother discussing the allegations, because its about the kind of vibes you get from Michael himself, seeing as there is no evidence in eithers favour. I dont see how that list is more of a reason to view Michael as a pedophile, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying about how this makes Michael look worse.