rialb said:

mozfonky said:

I don't know what to think of wendy and lisa, I never remember being wowed by their actual musicianship, as far as what they contributed behind the scenes is unkown to me. Prince wrote plenty of great music before his heavy collabs with them and did lots after. It seems Prince felt that they brought something to the table when you listen to "Old Friends 4 Sale" but I thought that they were most important as an image thing, you know, the two white girls working with the black idiot savant angle.

Eh, if you want to hear what Lisa & Wendy brought to Prince listen to "Power Fantastic" and "Sometimes it Snows in April."

ok, obvious question, at least for me, is why didn't I like their first album enough to listen to it more than a couple times? I don't listen to Prince's music for my health, i listen because I like it.

mozfonky said:

rialb said:

Eh, if you want to hear what Lisa & Wendy brought to Prince listen to "Power Fantastic" and "Sometimes it Snows in April."

ok, obvious question, at least for me, is why didn't I like their first album enough to listen to it more than a couple times? I don't listen to Prince's music for my health, i listen because I like it.

I can't really answer that question, I would guess that as songwriters you find them to be lacking. I do think that their influence on Prince and his music is sometimes overstated but at the same time for a lot of people his best and most adventureous years were 1983-1986 which happens to be when they were around. I think they were able to nudge him into interesting areas that he otherwise would not have explored. I could be mistaken but since they parted ways I don't believe anyone else filled the role that they once had as far as exposing him to new and different music.

20ten is fantastic.

Come, while it seems to have experienced a renaissance among the core fans, is still terrible and completely uninspired.

Purple Rain is the least interesting album of his '80s run.

Though nothing has officially come out of the threatened paternity suits, Prince has some kids running around in the world.

mozfonky said:

I don't know what to think of wendy and lisa, I never remember being wowed by their actual musicianship, as far as what they contributed behind the scenes is unkown to me. Prince wrote plenty of great music before his heavy collabs with them and did lots after. It seems Prince felt that they brought something to the table when you listen to "Old Friends 4 Sale" but I thought that they were most important as an image thing, you know, the two white girls working with the black idiot savant angle.

There's definately a visual aspect there for sure - and it's one that Prince has continued with ever since (Sheila/Cat, D&P, The Twinz) - it's part of his pimp image, his insecurity needs it I guess that "Hey, I'm a midget, but I got a woman on each arm see" thing.

Someone said above how they thought the SOTT/LS band was better than the Revolution - I don't think that's too controversial, it's a pretty common opinion - I don't think it was their live playing as a band that was so great about the Revolution, it was an image thing and a mission statement thing - for me it was W&L in the studio more than them on the stage. I think they added a layer to his stuff that was irreplaceable and it left a huge void in his writing when they left. You might not hear it right away (a lot of SOTT was DF era), but you certainly hear it after Lovesexy. And that's not just down to them, there were a lot of changes in Prince world after the Rev. split that contributed to a downward trend in Prince's output. But the 3 of them together was unique and I think ending it in 86 we missed out where they could've gone because they were just getting started IMO..... Any way before someone turns this into the usual BS - I don't want to downplay others like Andre, Dez, Sheila, Eric, Michael B and Sonny T.

Related to that, I'll add back on topic for the thread that I think Prince squanded his full potential in order to be a popstar rather than an artist.

rialb said:

NouveauDance said:

mozfonky said:

Related to that, I'll add back on topic for the thread that I think Prince squanded his full potential in order to be a popstar rather than an artist.

ok, i'll bite, what do you think he should have done differently?

Many songwriters are at their most prolific in their 20s and early 30s, and become less productive later on, as the comforts of fame start to set in and life doesn't bring as many new experiences. Paul McCartney said as much when he accepted an award from the Library of Congress recently. Of course, you could say that Paul's songwriting suffered when the Beatles broke up, and that a siimilar phenomenon happened when Prince let Wendy & Lisa go. But most great songwriters tend to warm up for a while, then hit the "classic period" of extraordinary productivity, then sort of peter out over time. Bob Dylan, Jagger/Richards, Joni Mitchell, and Stevie Wonder all fit this mold, and Prince is the same. Note that I'm talking about songwriting: I haven't noticed any decline in Prince's ability as a musician.

electricberet said:

Many songwriters are at their most prolific in their 20s and early 30s, and become less productive later on, as the comforts of fame start to set in and life doesn't bring as many new experiences. Paul McCartney said as much when he accepted an award from the Library of Congress recently. Of course, you could say that Paul's songwriting suffered when the Beatles broke up, and that a siimilar phenomenon happened when Prince let Wendy & Lisa go. But most great songwriters tend to warm up for a while, then hit the "classic period" of extraordinary productivity, then sort of peter out over time. Bob Dylan, Jagger/Richards, Joni Mitchell, and Stevie Wonder all fit this mold, and Prince is the same. Note that I'm talking about songwriting: I haven't noticed any decline in Prince's ability as a musician.

my opinion is that pop artists do lose the raw, new sound they bring as they age, often they improve as musicians and singers, however, I cannot think of any artist who i get as excited as I do with a Prince release, Stevie wonder hasn't given me a good song in years, not one, Michael had so many distractions he could rarely do anything, most other artists in Prince's league do not fare as well as he has, not even close really. he's still capable of putting out a great song, not everyone is at the stage he's at. Lionel Richie etc.., anyone from his era or at his age doesn't really do much anymore. I just have to say, I wouldn't listen at all if P's music was as bad as many insist.

NouveauDance said:

mozfonky said:

I don't know what to think of wendy and lisa, I never remember being wowed by their actual musicianship, as far as what they contributed behind the scenes is unkown to me. Prince wrote plenty of great music before his heavy collabs with them and did lots after. It seems Prince felt that they brought something to the table when you listen to "Old Friends 4 Sale" but I thought that they were most important as an image thing, you know, the two white girls working with the black idiot savant angle.

There's definately a visual aspect there for sure - and it's one that Prince has continued with ever since (Sheila/Cat, D&P, The Twinz) - it's part of his pimp image, his insecurity needs it I guess that "Hey, I'm a midget, but I got a woman on each arm see" thing.

Someone said above how they thought the SOTT/LS band was better than the Revolution - I don't think that's too controversial, it's a pretty common opinion - I don't think it was their live playing as a band that was so great about the Revolution, it was an image thing and a mission statement thing - for me it was W&L in the studio more than them on the stage. I think they added a layer to his stuff that was irreplaceable and it left a huge void in his writing when they left. You might not hear it right away (a lot of SOTT was DF era), but you certainly hear it after Lovesexy. And that's not just down to them, there were a lot of changes in Prince world after the Rev. split that contributed to a downward trend in Prince's output. But the 3 of them together was unique and I think ending it in 86 we missed out where they could've gone because they were just getting started IMO..... Any way before someone turns this into the usual BS - I don't want to downplay others like Andre, Dez, Sheila, Eric, Michael B and Sonny T.

Related to that, I'll add back on topic for the thread that I think Prince squanded his full potential in order to be a popstar rather than an artist.

yes I agree, the revolution is Prince's worst band from a technical standpoint, but they seem the most like a band--that is a group of like-minded people who have some kind of relationship that somehow transcends the music and has a style that is imprinted upon the music.

Each band has gotten farther from this, to where the NPG sounded like session musiciains. The Sign band was a happy medium of style and proficiency.

Wendy & Lisa get more attention simply because they were the ones he seemed closest to, not to mention they played the instruments that get more attention from listeners than bass & drums, plus their voices are on the records. But Matt, Mark, Dez, Bobby all added style to the band too, moreso IMO than Levi (on guitar), Renato, Kat, Mico, Rosie, Mr Hays, Tommy, Kirky J, or anyone with him now save perhaps John B.

As for your last comment, I agree with that, too. Diamonds & Pearls was a huge step backward artistically in favor of a step forward commercially. The Rainbow Children was his first attempt at reprising the artistic freedom he exhibited in the 80's, but after restraining yourself for 10 years, it's impossible to capture it completely.

Perhaps you mean his entire career, and you may be right from a certain POV, but I don't think pop stars can't also be complete artists.

[Edited 4/5/11 22:18pm]

The 1999 and Purple Rain albums will always be the vintage Prince albums for me, with 1999, he took all the promise he'd showed before and put it together in a way that would rival Elvis' Sun Session or the best of Springsteens work. Wendy wasn't even there for that album and Lisa wasn't the keyboard player that Fink was. I agree though, that on the whole, the Revolution and the Time and other assorted musicians around him fed him but I really don't know how big a part to give W and L. The bands musicianship was just not that good though, when Dez left, Wendy didn't even fill those shoes as a sideman on stage. Dez was perfect as an onstage foil. Wendy and Lisa had thin voices, which in some ways worked but neither really could sing. Brown Mark and Fink were both adequate but Bobby wendy and lisa had to be carried at times.

I miss Lotus;-)

mozfonky said:

electricberet said:

Many songwriters are at their most prolific in their 20s and early 30s, and become less productive later on, as the comforts of fame start to set in and life doesn't bring as many new experiences. Paul McCartney said as much when he accepted an award from the Library of Congress recently. Of course, you could say that Paul's songwriting suffered when the Beatles broke up, and that a siimilar phenomenon happened when Prince let Wendy & Lisa go. But most great songwriters tend to warm up for a while, then hit the "classic period" of extraordinary productivity, then sort of peter out over time. Bob Dylan, Jagger/Richards, Joni Mitchell, and Stevie Wonder all fit this mold, and Prince is the same. Note that I'm talking about songwriting: I haven't noticed any decline in Prince's ability as a musician.

my opinion is that pop artists do lose the raw, new sound they bring as they age, often they improve as musicians and singers, however, I cannot think of any artist who i get as excited as I do with a Prince release, Stevie wonder hasn't given me a good song in years, not one, Michael had so many distractions he could rarely do anything, most other artists in Prince's league do not fare as well as he has, not even close really. he's still capable of putting out a great song, not everyone is at the stage he's at. Lionel Richie etc.., anyone from his era or at his age doesn't really do much anymore. I just have to say, I wouldn't listen at all if P's music was as bad as many insist.

Thank goodness someone else gets it, we need more posters like you. Personally i am getting really tired of the negativity on his site regarding prince.

mozfonky said:

The 1999 and Purple Rain albums will always be the vintage Prince albums for me, with 1999, he took all the promise he'd showed before and put it together in a way that would rival Elvis' Sun Session or the best of Springsteens work. Wendy wasn't even there for that album and Lisa wasn't the keyboard player that Fink was. I agree though, that on the whole, the Revolution and the Time and other assorted musicians around him fed him but I really don't know how big a part to give W and L. The bands musicianship was just not that good though, when Dez left, Wendy didn't even fill those shoes as a sideman on stage. Dez was perfect as an onstage foil. Wendy and Lisa had thin voices, which in some ways worked but neither really could sing. Brown Mark and Fink were both adequate but Bobby wendy and lisa had to be carried at times.

yes, wendy seemed like she could play a bit, but I can't actually identify anything that Lisa played and their vocals were nothing to write home about

but they were the most visible members, you heard their voices, they were identified by name in the movie, they went with Prince to the oscars, they went on to have a "solo" career

I think this is why people attribute more to them than maybe they deserve.

But I don't know, maybe they were crucial to his Purple Rain through Parade development. Prince's music really changed around this time. Maybe they had something to do with that that Dez & Matt did not. I don't know.

ParanoidAndroid said:

hhhhdmt said:

yes thats why prince was composing most of their songs

I mean "live"

Yes for sure, totally agree!

That band was on fire back in the days. Not that Prince was doing bad or anything, hell no, but his band couldn't touch The Time in their heyday...

trevion said:

that's a controversial one. Sign o the times is one of his best in most peoples minds. everything's subjective I guess. I'd take it over any of his albums that have more "polish".

Lammastide said:

* The Black Album was decent, but inferior to Lovesexy

I agree.The Black Album has some great moments,but I don't think it's as edgy,interesting and groundbreaking as some people make it out to be.He was wise to shelve it and release Lovesexy instead.

Wtf,

Sign "☮" The Times

Lovesexy

those are truly great,

2 of the finest albums ever made by any artist.

Masterpieces, both.... yep that's imo........

thedance said:

ParanoidAndroid said:

thedance said:

Wtf,

Sign "☮" The Times

Lovesexy

those are truly great,

2 of the finest albums ever made by any artist.

Masterpieces, both.... yep that's imo........

Both were ruined by the terrible production. As I said earlier, the songs are great. But the sound of these albums is terrible. SOTT deserved rerecording with the live band, Lovesexy is overproduced crap. I'd love to hear what it was before Prince decided to flood the mix with all these keyboards and synths. Eric Leeds said that in some interview.

He was only referring to the change from "The Ball" to "I Know". Not the whole album.

NDRU said:

and their vocals were nothing to write home about

See, for me this is the same thing as saying Prince had better players after the Revolution, or Prince saying he's a better musician now than he was back when.

It isn't always about how proficient something is - or should I just say 'it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it'.

I love the sound of Lisa's vocals against Prince's own - Imagine Mariah Carey or Beyonce screeching and warbling over 'Head' or 'Wonderful Ass'.

Spinlight said:

savvy said:

There was a douchebag in here a couple of years ago that more or less stated that Prince had never composed genuine Funk music.

I wasn't livid because of his idiocy, I was livid, because some people were stupid enough to take him seriously.

He went on to proclaim; a- He knew how to define Funk b- There was an existence of a "Funk Community" (Do they have meetings? Collect dues? Do they have a mission statement?Do they have a yearbook?) that didn't take Prince seriously.

The thread went on forever. Sometimes delusional people are actually smart. Not in this case, he was both dumb and lost.

I remember that thread It was one of the most interesting and longest discussions we ever had on this site.

'Parade' has some good songs but the album as a whole is uneven.

'Emancipation' has about 12 great songs and a bunch of songs that are just average.

'The Arms Of Orion' is a masterpiece.

Tony M. really wasn't that bad.I like his contributions to songs like "Sexy MF" and "The Max".

Maybe you should stop over these, and start listening some more to those brilliant albums?

Haha, I am a little tired of all this defending, it's like I have to defend Lovesexy a lot of times on this site - even this, "the holy Prince grail" is critisized.

Those 2 albums are loved and very dear to me.

I understand a Prince fan who critisizes the post Warner music 1996>2010,

About the sound..... is this maybe a little complex for you? On Lovesexy?

Sign "☮" The Times >> psychedelic soul, pop, rock, funk - 16 truly great tracks, I don't hear anything wrong with the production, I absolutely love it.... some of Prince's best work.

Lovesexy >> too complex? pop funk, multi layered production, screaming guitars, I love this too.

I rate both 10 out of 10,

I know tastes may be different, but these albums are some of the finest..... it hurts me a bit, to see Prince's best work is not appreciated, apparently what is gold to some is garbage to others....

Is this sad, or don't it matters....?

Ps. I rate Parade 10 out of 10 also.....