angel345 said:

JoeyC said:

Kids like this.

http://www.sacbee.com/201...k=misearch

[Edited 11/3/11 16:17pm]

That's abuse

Yeah that's a heartbreaking story. The abuse you see here took place in california but apparently this girl also suffered abuse in Texas. Her story is a testament to the will to survive.

PurpleJedi said:

Dave1992 said:

How do you think it would feel to your children if they'd hear you saying you don't respect someone's opinion just because they're younger than you are (or because they don't share your opinion)?

I've said it a thousand times already: I met old, experienced people who behaved like total idiots (especially here on the org) and I met young, inexperienced people who didn't have to go through certain experiences to know what their outcome would be, which is quite wise. You'd be lying if you told me you haven't, too.

But I guess it makes you feel stronger, so carry on.

"Respect"...there's a word worth looking up in the dictionary. When you offer an "opinion" that's laced with condescention and a high-brow "holier-than-thou" tone...then it's not an "opinion" but rather a condemnation.

It's YOUR opinion that spanking is "abusive". But that is your opinion. It does not make it a fact. And you can argue 'til your pretty little face turns blue all you want, and it still does not make it a fact.

I expect my children to have strong opinions (which they do) and more importantly to lead by actions and not words. And when they do offer their opinion, I hope that they do so wisely and with tact...and actually know what the hell they're talking about.

PurpleJedi, all I did in that post was try to explain that age/amount of expierence can't really be important in a conversation like this, because everybody has gained different experiences and it's all relative.

Of course it's my opinion, just as it is your opinion that it isn't. I was trying to defend my point, you should be trying to defend yours, rather than simply telling me that I haven't raised enough children to be able to participate properly. I think I gave enough arguments to prove my point, regardless of my personal experience.

"Tactfulness" is very difficult to maintain in a heated discussion like this. It's very difficult to participate without using words that imply condescension at all (even you did not manage to). I didn't mean to attack anyone personally, I hope you didn't mean to either.

PurpleJedi said:

SUPRMAN said:

She apparently posted it after Daddy threatened to cut her off financially and take her Mercedes if she dropped out of school.

I guess being beaten led to attempted blackmail.

So many abused and abusers trying to make it seem they are so 'normal'.

What a sad, sad, sad thread.

Dave1992 said:

PurpleJedi said:

"Respect"...there's a word worth looking up in the dictionary. When you offer an "opinion" that's laced with condescention and a high-brow "holier-than-thou" tone...then it's not an "opinion" but rather a condemnation.

It's YOUR opinion that spanking is "abusive". But that is your opinion. It does not make it a fact. And you can argue 'til your pretty little face turns blue all you want, and it still does not make it a fact.

I expect my children to have strong opinions (which they do) and more importantly to lead by actions and not words. And when they do offer their opinion, I hope that they do so wisely and with tact...and actually know what the hell they're talking about.

PurpleJedi, all I did in that post was try to explain that age/amount of expierence can't really be important in a conversation like this, because everybody has gained different experiences and it's all relative.

Of course it's my opinion, just as it is your opinion that it isn't. I was trying to defend my point, you should be trying to defend yours, rather than simply telling me that I haven't raised enough children to be able to participate properly. I think I gave enough arguments to prove my point, regardless of my personal experience.

"Tactfulness" is very difficult to maintain in a heated discussion like this. It's very difficult to participate without using words that imply condescension at all (even you did not manage to). I didn't mean to attack anyone personally, I hope you didn't mean to either.

That's fair.

I typically don't feel the need to "defend" my opinion because I have no desire to sway anyone to think/feel the way that I do.

Go back to your post to which StillGotIt & I replied to...it definitely was more offensive than defensive.

I've seen my fair share of threads such as this one (spanking...racism...Creation...Michael Jackson...) turn into heated exchanges of egos because people are trying to enforce their mindset upon others.

Opinions are opinions. I will share mine with yours, but I won't try to PUSH mine onto you. And I appreciate the same in return.

Sorry if the age remark struck a nerve...but you have to admit that being called "too young" is a whole hell of a lot less inciteful than being called "pathetic, horrible and disgusting".

...and BTW...while we're on the subject (and relevant to this thread)...

...IMO...harmful words leave scars upon young children that take much longer to heal.

I've heard parents say such horrible things to their children ("Why are you so stupid?" or "I wish you were never born") that it makes ME want to cry.

Where are the threads on verbal abuse???

in regards to age and experience.....I would just like to say that although Dave is young and inexperienced as far as raising his own children, he is still young enough to be considered a "kid" by most of us...and therefore has a VERY valuable opinion from a "kids" point of view on this topic.

Dave, please don't be offended by me referring to you as a kid, I know you are not a child, my point is that as we get older I think many people forget what it was like being a kid. How it felt to have practically zero control over anything in your life. This is why I think your opinion on this is VERY VALUABLE.

In my life with conversations like these when a parent is basically undermining their children's opinions because the parent knows better, a kind of "oh stop it, I've been there and done that and it's not that big a deal, get over it" kind of attitude. I like to remind them of when they were a kid, when they felt completely misunderstood or under valued, I like to ask them if they have totally forgot what it was like to be a kid. A kid's POV is one that should not be forgotten or disregarded. Now, I'm not saying let your kids run amuck and do as they please...but let's not act like they have no feelings, or that those feelings don't count. Let's not forget that we are jaded and bitter (yes we all are to some extent) because we are grown up and have experienced many unpleasant experiences. If you really think about it, children are sweet and loving and we should not want to change that, we should hold it dear because they grow up so fast and we can't turn back the clock or take things back. Believe me, I have had many moments where I have wanted to beat my kids...but it's just not in my nature. I know, my kids are brats sometimes because I am too nice to them, I love them too much. But I'm am firm when I have to be and all in all they are good boys who will learn as they grow up. My husband and I grew up very differently, we are often at odds on how to handle bad behavior. He grew up with being hit and I didn't. It may have taken me a bit longer to understand the concept of respecting adults and authority but ...not by much. by the time I was 15 or 16 it was light bulb went off in my head, where I realized my parents were just people, who were trying their best and I decided at that point that they deserved my respect and I made a conscious decision to not be such a brat anymore. (hey...I had my set backs but...I continually improved) Now, my family relationships are GREAT! I love both my parents and brother VERY much, we all have great relationships. My husband's family on the other hand.......mmm, not so much. The lack of love for their parents is obvious, sure, they "love" them but....there is bitterness there. The mom was the authoritarian in that household and the dad was the "nice" one....but he didn't step in to curb her "whippings" either and they resent them both for their respective rolls.

Just remember, that kids aren't supposed to act like adults because they are NOT adults, let them be kids. This doesn't mean let them do whatever they want but it doesn't mean beat them into submission either.

Shorty said:

Just remember, that kids aren't supposed to act like adults because they are NOT adults, let them be kids. This doesn't mean let them do whatever they want but it doesn't mean beat them into submission either.

Golden words for any parent to love by, regardless of where they stand on the topic.

Shorty said:

in regards to age and experience.....I would just like to say that although Dave is young and inexperienced as far as raising his own children, he is still young enough to be considered a "kid" by most of us...and therefore has a VERY valuable opinion from a "kids" point of view on this topic.

Dave, please don't be offended by me referring to you as a kid, I know you are not a child, my point is that as we get older I think many people forget what it was like being a kid. How it felt to have practically zero control over anything in your life. This is why I think your opinion on this is VERY VALUABLE.

In my life with conversations like these when a parent is basically undermining their children's opinions because the parent knows better, a kind of "oh stop it, I've been there and done that and it's not that big a deal, get over it" kind of attitude. I like to remind them of when they were a kid, when they felt completely misunderstood or under valued, I like to ask them if they have totally forgot what it was like to be a kid. A kid's POV is one that should not be forgotten or disregarded. Now, I'm not saying let your kids run amuck and do as they please...but let's not act like they have no feelings, or that those feelings don't count. Let's not forget that we are jaded and bitter (yes we all are to some extent) because we are grown up and have experienced many unpleasant experiences. If you really think about it, children are sweet and loving and we should not want to change that, we should hold it dear because they grow up so fast and we can't turn back the clock or take things back. Believe me, I have had many moments where I have wanted to beat my kids...but it's just not in my nature. I know, my kids are brats sometimes because I am too nice to them, I love them too much. But I'm am firm when I have to be and all in all they are good boys who will learn as they grow up. My husband and I grew up very differently, we are often at odds on how to handle bad behavior. He grew up with being hit and I didn't. It may have taken me a bit longer to understand the concept of respecting adults and authority but ...not by much. by the time I was 15 or 16 it was light bulb went off in my head, where I realized my parents were just people, who were trying their best and I decided at that point that they deserved my respect and I made a conscious decision to not be such a brat anymore. (hey...I had my set backs but...I continually improved) Now, my family relationships are GREAT! I love both my parents and brother VERY much, we all have great relationships. My husband's family on the other hand.......mmm, not so much. The lack of love for their parents is obvious, sure, they "love" them but....there is bitterness there. The mom was the authoritarian in that household and the dad was the "nice" one....but he didn't step in to curb her "whippings" either and they resent them both for their respective rolls.

Just remember, that kids aren't supposed to act like adults because they are NOT adults, let them be kids. This doesn't mean let them do whatever they want but it doesn't mean beat them into submission either.

JoeyC said:

angel345 said:

That's abuse

Yeah that's a heartbreaking story. The abuse you see here took place in california but apparently this girl also suffered abuse in Texas. Her story is a testament to the will to survive.

And a happy ending. At least her adoptive parents were charged.

so many children living an absolute nightmare. This kind of shit needs to end.

Tremolina said:

So many abused and abusers trying to make it seem they are so 'normal'.

What a sad, sad, sad thread.

It doesn't seem to be aberrant behavior among human beings though.

Thinking about it it seems closer to 'normal' for human beings.

Even here in the Org., some will abuse and if there weren't moderators with the threat of banishment, it would be very ugly in here.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

so many children living an absolute nightmare. This kind of shit needs to end.

I agree.

Sadly, as long as we have people with this type of mentality things will never change.

http://news.yahoo.com/blo...04793.html

[Edited 11/9/11 14:11pm]

^ nah you're wrong, this is all "not what it seems like" and you either don't have the "experience" as a "parent" or you just can't see the "need", wait better yet, the "fun" of it all...

In recent years, several children have died after enduring extreme forms of corporal punishment from parents who had absorbed the controversial child-rearing advice of Tennessee pastor Michael Pearl. Now, the New York Times r...under fire.

In their self-published book, To Train Up a Child, Pearl, 66, and his wife Debi, 60, recommend the systematic use of "the rod" to teach young children to submit to authority. They offer instructions on how to use a switch for hitting children as young as six months, and describe how to use other implements, including a quarter-inch flexible plumbing line. Older children, the Pearls say, should be hit with a belt, wooden spoon or willow switch, hard enough to sting. Michael Pearl has said the methods are based on "the same principles the Amish use to train their stubborn mules."

There are 670,000 copies of the book in circulation, and it's especially popular among Christian home-schoolers such as Larry and Carri Williams of Sedro-Woolley, Wash. In September, local prosecutors charged them with homicide by abuse after their adopted daughter Hana, 11, was found naked and emaciated in the backyard, having died of hypothermia and malnutrition. She had been deprived of food for days at a time, and made to sleep in an unheated barn.

JoeyC said:

NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v

What do ya think ?

[Edited 11/3/11 0:08am]

I didn't watch the entire video because it seemed like long pauses between action.

But if the spanking/beating lasted about 2 - 3 minutes like I think then:

I bet her azz won't sneak and use that computer again.

I got beat like that as a kid growing up. Sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with it except that they have waited a little late to be whooping on their kid. If they had did it properly when she was younger they would not need to do at 16. They would have respectful fear of deliberately disobeying a parent.

aww ... look at all those cute little babies in your avatar... do you beat thos up too?

another abused, abusing

Tremolina said:

aww ... look at all those cute little babies in your avatar... do you beat thos up too?

another abused, abusing

I think you should take in abused children and give them a home where they will never be subject to corporal punishment again.

Tremolina said:

aww ... look at all those cute little babies in your avatar... do you beat thos up too?

another abused, abusing

Please don't tell me this is directed at me.

paintedlady said:

LadyCasanova said:

So far, that definition (in this discussion) has been very different depending on the poster.

What say you?

[Edited 11/5/11 16:30pm]

If I DO spank..... I use a belt... not my hand.

1-Me and child have a long discussion - the why -the how- and the what can happen

2- because while I get the child to get the belt I am able to calm down and think, so not to strike my child while anger. Sometimes I even wait a few minutes.

3- If I use my hand I fear I may bruise or even break a bone... I am heavy handed.

4- I use the two stike method and to intimidate/scare them... not cause pain. Sometimes I even strike the floor and I get the same effect.

the trick is not in the actual hitting... but in the sense of instilling the "don't ever try that again" in the child.

after the spanking we hug it out and the child needs time to be alone.

I NEVER allow my children to taunt any sibling who is on punishment or has been spanked... ever.

that is abusive also.

Oh and I NEVER call my children out of their name, nor do I call them dumb, stupid... etc.

I keep it to what they should not do and why ONLY.

This way the child isn't emotionally abused also. Many parents do NOT stop themselves from verbally abusing their children when angered.

I am BIG on that one. I hate verbal abuse.

[Edited 11/5/11 16:48pm]

PaintedLady, your method sounds very very familiar to me. My mom always made us go get the belt too.

I never thought it was because she needed time to compose herself.

I did not spank my child. DH did when she was younger... 4, 5, 6. At 7 or 8 we decided that we would not spank anymore. I have noticed now that my DD is 12 and nearly as tall as me, that she has a healthy respect for DH.

but she thought she could flat out tell me "no" and also thought she could "take me on". That is exactly what she said to me and put up her dukes. at 11.

She won't try that anytime too soon with me. But I know the day is coming when she will flat out defy me. mind you she is not even a teenager yet.

She wouldn't DREAM of acting that way with DH. I now think it is because he spanked her when she was younger and she doesn't want that to happen. He doesn't even threaten to spank... he doesn't have to.

I now wish I had use corporal punishment for repeated and deliberate defiance when she was younger.

jone70 said:

tinaz said:

There has to be fear... fear based actions rule the world... Why dont you speed in your car? Because you fear a speeding ticket... Why dont you steal? Cuz you fear jail...

There MUST be consequences to every action, I have seen those "time out, lets discuss this" parenting... Its a joke, the child is usually out of contol! But if a child knows its bad behaviour will warrant a punishment of some kind, that is what teaches them how to behave... You dont have to "scare" your child, but it must be aware of the consequences...

And this is in noway saying beat your child...

This seems backwards to me. You* should be taught to do or not do things because they are right not because you are scared of the consequences of getting caught doing them. You shouldn't speed because it is dangerous and could cause harm to yourself or others. You shouldn't steal because it is not right to take something that does not belong to you. It's fine to have consequences, but ruling by fear doesn't seem quite right. Wouldn't it be better to teach children to not do something because it is not polite or proper or moral instead of teach them to be afraid of what happens if they get caught?

*All use of "you" is in the general sense, not the specific.

That comes later when they are able to think LOGICALLY and with REASON. Sorry but 4 - 8 year old children do not fully comprehend consequences of action let alone doing things for 'the right reason".

They think in concrete terms, respond to negative and positive reinforcment. Do things correctly you get rewarded. It is the reward that they work for, not because it is "the right thing to do". Do things wrong you get punished. For some kids punishment is parent's disapproval, for others, it is depriving a toy etc. for others you need to give NEGATIVE consequence for bad behavior.

My sister did not need to be spanked. All my parents had to do was raise their voices and she would began to cry and be remorseful.

I on the other hand would roll my eyes when I was being reprimanded.... and my tone of voice was dispectful. I would actually have to get licks with the belt.

Guess what? I am in my 40s now and I have NEVER shoplifted, never did illicit drugs, never broke curfew, never been arrested for ANYTHING... NOT EVER.

I really believe time outs are sometimes just don't go far enough for some kids. And each kid is different.

I only have one. I talked about this with someone who had 3. One kid you could talk to, one kid you could take away privileges, and one would occassionally need a spanking to fall in line.

All punishment is done with love and concern for your child. I am not talking about child abuse. There is a difference. If you don't understand that...

vainandy said:

"Oh my God, he hit her with a belt! He hit her with a belt! Even though she screamed, he still hit her with the belt!"

Well hell, if he didn't hit her with a belt, then what the hell is he supposed to hit her with....a feather? And she screamed, well hell, ain't that what you do when you get a whoopin'. Hell, I used to start screaming before the belt even came down and touched me.

Yeah my sister did this. I was the defiant one. I would try to hold out as long as I could when I got whooped. Finally one day my LITTLE sister (by 5 years) told me that it would be much faster and easier if I would just cry.

next time I squeezed those tears out... she was right.

The majority of the posts in this thread make me want to vomit. Seriously.

Dave, as a mother who is not only raising a child but doing it on her own, I completely agree with everything you said. Funny how no one is questioning the childless people who have very strong opinions on corporal punishment being totally appropriate. No one claims they are in a fairytale world.

Anyway, Dave...you totally get it. 100%.

Tremmy too. And Lady and Shorty and the few others that share similar views.

I respect the hell out of you guys even more now.

SUPRMAN said:

Tremolina said:

aww ... look at all those cute little babies in your avatar... do you beat thos up too?

another abused, abusing

I think you should take in abused children and give them a home where they will never be subject to corporal punishment again.

Some people have agendas and can pay plenty of lip service to a "position" on a controversial subject. Beyond talk, judgment and condemation....

JustErin said:

The majority of the posts in this thread make me want to vomit. Seriously.

Dave, as a mother who is not only raising a child but doing it on her own, I completely agree with everything you said. Funny how no one is questioning the childless people who have very strong opinions on corporal punishment being totally appropriate. No one claims they are in a fairytale world.

Anyway, Dave...you totally get it. 100%.

Tremmy too. And Lady and Shorty and the few others that share similar views.

I respect the hell out of you guys even more now.

Thank you and all the best to you; your son is lucky to have a mother like you (because I bet he has seen you naked already).

... and , of course.

SUPRMAN said:

Tremolina said:

aww ... look at all those cute little babies in your avatar... do you beat thos up too?

another abused, abusing

I think you should take in abused children and give them a home where they will never be subject to corporal punishment again.

And I think you should take in bankers who lost everything in their self inflicted crisis. You have a problem with me having a problerm with child abuse? Then you're part of the problem.

Tremolina said:

aww ... look at all those cute little babies in your avatar... do you beat thos up too?

another abused, abusing

See, this is what I was talking about in the other thread. Defending the "abused" while being abusive. It just doesn't add up to me. There's no point to post like this, other than to condescend and judge harshly. Maybe I'll rephrase my saying you're slightly abusive to astonishingly judgmental. Would that be better for you?

Tremolina said:

aww ... look at all those cute little babies in your avatar... do you beat thos up too?

another abused, abusing

What constitutes child abuse and spankings? How were you raised?

This thread has over 200 replies and over 4,000 views yet the thread about that Penn State coach/official raping and molesting little boys hardly has any action.

Some orgers have strange definitions of abuse.

HotGritz said:

This thread has over 200 replies and over 4,000 views yet the thread about that Penn State coach/official raping and molesting little boys hardly has any action.

Some orgers have strange definitions of abuse.

HotGritz said: