Cerebus said:

Lammastide said:

That's a fair comment, John. I have a ton of respect for that, and I'd like to think I'd have the balls to jump in and help in a situation like this too. We hear stories often, though, about people losing their lives trying to defend others in fights like this, and I suspect a lot of bystanders in situations like this internalize those stories and automatically kick into self-preservation mode, for better or worse.

Exactly. And we hear of just as many stories where people stand by and do absolutely nothing. I will say again, the internet is overrun with these videos.

Watching is not self-preservation though. This is my only issue. I get that folk might not wanna get involved (ok not really, no I don't actually get it, but recognize it), but when you don't want to be involved you go, in order to avoid trouble. You don't watch and you certainly don't tape or chuckle...those are all gross things to do in this sort of situation.

johnart said:

Lammastide said:

That's a fair comment, John. I have a ton of respect for that, and I'd like to think I'd have the balls to jump in and help in a situation like this too. We hear stories often, though, about people losing their lives trying to defend others in fights like this, and I suspect a lot of bystanders in situations like this internalize those stories and automatically kick into self-preservation mode, for better or worse.

BTW I didn't mean "Lammie said" as in calling u out, I just meant "Lammie said". And not judging what you said, just that seriously, unless something uncontrollable kicked in in my body, I would have to be involved in trying to help in some way. Foolish a move as it may be.

I don't always have best judgment. I will mouth back as some ignorance even when something in me tells me "JOHN SHUT THE FUCK UP THAT DUDE IS TOO HUGE".

Oh, I know you weren't calling me out.

It's interesting. I totally buy that you'd be so bold as to put yourself in harm's way to defend this woman. I wonder, though, if you could do that because you've lived first-hand (as a drag performer) in proximity to a subculture that must put up with this exact threat every day. I guess I'm wondering if you're maybe somehow conditioned for that sort of response.

Most people in the U.S. these days, no matter how oppressed they picture themselves to be, don't experience this level of attack looming at any given moment. I'm wondering if for them, then, such raw inhumanity is foreign and just scrambles their brains in the moment. (Not that I'm making excuses, though. I still think they would have the presence of mind to do something, if only pulling the victim into a more secure back room.)

Maybe this all is BS. Just brainstorming here.

[Edited 4/22/11 23:10pm]

Lammastide said:

johnart said:

BTW I didn't mean "Lammie said" as in calling u out, I just meant "Lammie said". And not judging what you said, just that seriously, unless something uncontrollable kicked in in my body, I would have to be involved in trying to help in some way. Foolish a move as it may be.

I don't always have best judgment. I will mouth back as some ignorance even when something in me tells me "JOHN SHUT THE FUCK UP THAT DUDE IS TOO HUGE".

Oh, I know you weren't calling me out.

It's interesting. I totally buy that you'd be so bold as to put yourself in harm's way to defend this woman. I wonder, though, if you could do that because you've lived first-hand (as a drag performer) in proximity to a subculture that must put up with this type of threat every day. I guess I'm wondering if you're maybe somehow conditioned for that sort of response.

Most people, no matter how oppressed they picture themselves to be, don't experience this level of attack looming at any given moment. I'm thinking for them, maybe, such raw inhumanity is foreign and just scrambles their brains in the moment.

Maybe this all is BS. Just brainstorming here.

[Edited 4/22/11 23:05pm]

It's all possible I suppose. Like I said one or two posts ago, I can recognize that (even if not understand or relate) but to interact (via dialogue or behind a camera) and to find it humorous in any way...I just can't deal with. This was not some chicks slapping eachother, it was so brutal to me. WTF is even remotely entertaining about that?

I watched that girl's video on youtube (the one King posted), folk making comments like "That ain't a siezure, that's a trannygasm". How fucking gross are you inside??

johnart said:

Lammastide said:

Oh, I know you weren't calling me out.

It's interesting. I totally buy that you'd be so bold as to put yourself in harm's way to defend this woman. I wonder, though, if you could do that because you've lived first-hand (as a drag performer) in proximity to a subculture that must put up with this type of threat every day. I guess I'm wondering if you're maybe somehow conditioned for that sort of response.

Most people, no matter how oppressed they picture themselves to be, don't experience this level of attack looming at any given moment. I'm thinking for them, maybe, such raw inhumanity is foreign and just scrambles their brains in the moment.

Maybe this all is BS. Just brainstorming here.

[Edited 4/22/11 23:05pm]

It's all possible I suppose. Like I said one or two posts ago, I can recognize that (even if not understand or relate) but to interact (via dialogue or behind a camera) and to find it humorous in any way...I just can't deal with. This was not some chicks slapping eachother, it was so brutal to me. WTF is even remotely entertaining about that?

I watched that girl's video on youtube (the one King posted), folk making comments like "That ain't a siezure, that's a trannygasm". How fucking gross are you inside??

I hear you on that. That's naked transphobia. I certainly can't brainstorm that away.

In regards to both of you (and anyone who reads this thread) I want to make it abundantly clear that I'm not making excuses for any of the behavior in the video. I think what I wrote makes that clear, but maybe it doesn't, so I guess better to be safe than sorry.

However, I don't understand where the disbelief in people standing around watching, laughing and commenting is coming from. It happens all the time. Its a constant in this day and age, and probably has been forever, but every 8 out of 10 people didn't carry around a camera and have access to the internet in the past.

Ya know, think about the bully video posted here just a couple weeks ago. And while I flatly refuse to post links to the sites or videos, there are countless places where people post videos of unsuspecting victims getting attacked. In nearly all of them the people not involved in the fight stand by and watch or just turn around and walk away. In a lot of cases they start cheering, or going "oooo", or making comments.

Again, NOT defending. But I don't believe for one second that the behavior in the video is out of the ordinary for the human race at large. We kinda suck.

Cerebus said:

However, I don't understand where the disbelief in people standing around watching, laughing and commenting is coming from.

Oh for me it's not disbelief, I just think folk who do that are a worthless douche. It's a very sad sign of our times, that everything, even savagery and disregard for one another as humans, is nothing more than a fucking youtube photo-op/joke.

[Edited 4/22/11 23:20pm]

johnart said:

Lammastide said:

Oh, I know you weren't calling me out.

It's interesting. I totally buy that you'd be so bold as to put yourself in harm's way to defend this woman. I wonder, though, if you could do that because you've lived first-hand (as a drag performer) in proximity to a subculture that must put up with this type of threat every day. I guess I'm wondering if you're maybe somehow conditioned for that sort of response.

Most people, no matter how oppressed they picture themselves to be, don't experience this level of attack looming at any given moment. I'm thinking for them, maybe, such raw inhumanity is foreign and just scrambles their brains in the moment.

Maybe this all is BS. Just brainstorming here.

[Edited 4/22/11 23:05pm]

It's all possible I suppose. Like I said one or two posts ago, I can recognize that (even if not understand or relate) but to interact (via dialogue or behind a camera) and to find it humorous in any way...I just can't deal with. This was not some chicks slapping eachother, it was so brutal to me. WTF is even remotely entertaining about that?

I watched that girl's video on youtube (the one King posted), folk making comments like "That ain't a siezure, that's a trannygasm". How fucking gross are you inside??

I couldn't watch her video and I've outlawed myself from reading YouTube video comments. They're nothing but an open hate board and I don't need any more proof as to how fucked up the human race is. I was convinced we're beyond repair long ago. All that's left to do is be the best individual you can, help when you can, and hope we don't destroy ourselves before we can get off this rock.

.... OK, I realize most people don't care about that last part... but I do.

I wont watch the video. Just more proof that we human beings are not humane.

Side story, I was at a Mcdonald's once and these 2 guys where shoving each other about to get to blows, when a woman manager came in between the two and yelled at the one guy to go outside! And to the other to sit down! She was not nice about it, but it worked.

Some dude got up in my face yelling (about 2 years ago) and I did not back down. I just watched his body movements and clenched my fists, prepared for a blow out. Some people called the cops and it was over. I didn't strike him even though he pushed me (not a hard push). Just a fight me push. You don't have to use violence, but you have to be prepared to.

6 of one half dozen of the other

sometimes me sometimes you

i didn't ever see this one in a thread though...

KingBAD said:

6 of one half dozen of the other

sometimes me sometimes you

i didn't ever see this one in a thread though...

The fuck is your point?

Spinlight said:

KingBAD said:

6 of one half dozen of the other

sometimes me sometimes you

i didn't ever see this one in a thread though...

The fuck is your point?

you becommin worse than a dog that eats it's own shit.

you more like one that eats the shit out of a ccatbox.

i don't miss you

you can miss me though...

I don't know how anyone can wrap their minds around saying that what happened to that person is SIMILIAR to what goes on at Prince.org. That's some ridiculous shit.

KingBAD said:

Spinlight said:

The fuck is your point?

you becommin worse than a dog that eats it's own shit.

you more like one that eats the shit out of a ccatbox.

i don't miss you

you can miss me though...

You are a complete moron.

Spinlight said:

http://www.thesmokinggun....ing-640128

[img:$uid]http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/1fbgrabsizedforinside.jpg[/img:$uid]]

And who's to say that the SAME kind of hate crime wouldn't have happen if a transgender woman was using the men's restroom? Remember, homophobia is pretty high among some straight men.

TonyVanDam said:

Spinlight said:

http://www.thesmokinggun....ing-640128

[img:$uid]http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/1fbgrabsizedforinside.jpg[/img:$uid]]

And who's to say that the SAME kind of hate crime wouldn't have happen if a transgender woman was using the men's restroom? Remember, homophobia is pretty high among some straight men.

A transgendered woman wouldn't use the men's bathroom. I'm 99.999999% sure about that.

A transgendered man might, but he would be just as prone to abuse as the transwoman would be.

Transphobia is even deeper than homophobia in the US. Transphobia doesn't even exist in some nations.

KingBAD said:

6 of one half dozen of the other

sometimes me sometimes you

i didn't ever see this one in a thread though...

I'm not going to comment on whether or not the fight was "justified" or any such nonsense.

What I am going to say is that the employees and management of that McDonald's had/have an obligation to maintain order within the confines of their store.

Doesn't mean that if some dude pulls out a gun they should take a bullet...but in this case, they needed to break the fight up and eject the attackers.

Yeah, they're gonna get sued, and rightly so.

admiration 4 the old girl who stands up 2 those animals

DoffieParker said:

admiration 4 the old girl who stands up 2 those animals

paintedlady said:

Spinlight said:

The group mentality of ganging up on someone happens all the time on the org. When a person of perceived difference is seen in an ostensibly sensitive situation or vulnerable place, people use the opportunity to exploit their weakness and abuse them. And that's exactly what I gather from this video - people repelled by something/someone who is different and everyone just kinda aimlessly staring around like it was supposed to be that way and no one should help.

That behavior is then justified by saying the person begged for it, warranted it, etc.

These ways of thinking are pervasive - they don't reside wholly within people who hang out in a McDonald's as opposed to on the internet.

I see people disagreeing, people standing up for their friends, people asking provacative questions and controversial hot button issues being discussed... sometimes passionately.

co-sign

I watched the whole sickening thing last night and read the news reports and comments from various sources. Wtf? Whether it was a transgender or cross dresser, allegedly with a criminal record, nothing justifies what those broads did just because she may or may not have been allowed in the bathroom or regardless of what she may have said to them.

Those are some of the excuses being made by some idiots online, like the one who filmed the incident.

Secondly, McDonald's is very much liable, not because the employees didn't intervene, but because of the laughing, posting the video online for entertainment and encouraging the suspects to run.

Furthermore, when the suspects were leaving the first time couldn't the idiot manager have locked the damned door then? He kept letting them come back...further liability.

I can't boast about what I would or would not have done in a given situation but damn! that old lady has my respect.

There's no way to determine why the victim did not fight or run...some people get paralyzed in such dire situations.

babynoz said:

I watched the whole sickening thing last night and read the news reports and comments from various sources. Wtf? Whether it was a transgender or cross dresser, allegedly with a criminal record, nothing justifies what those broads did just because she may or may not have been allowed in the bathroom or regardless of what she may have said to them.

Those are some of the excuses being made by some idiots online, like the one who filmed the incident.

Secondly, McDonald's is very much liable, not because the employees didn't intervene, but because of the laughing, posting the video online for entertainment and encouraging the suspects to run.

Furthermore, when the suspects were leaving the first time couldn't the idiot manager have locked the damned door then? He kept letting them come back...further liability.

I can't boast about what I would or would not have done in a given situation but damn! that old lady has my respect.

There's no way to determine why the victim did not fight or run...some people get paralyzed in such dire situations.

Actually, it's just the opposite, the are liable due to the fact the employees didn't intervene enough to stop the attack. The laughing and posting and encouragement by the "filmmaker" has nothing to do with McDonald's.

SonOfSoul said:

babynoz said:

I watched the whole sickening thing last night and read the news reports and comments from various sources. Wtf? Whether it was a transgender or cross dresser, allegedly with a criminal record, nothing justifies what those broads did just because she may or may not have been allowed in the bathroom or regardless of what she may have said to them.

Those are some of the excuses being made by some idiots online, like the one who filmed the incident.

Secondly, McDonald's is very much liable, not because the employees didn't intervene, but because of the laughing, posting the video online for entertainment and encouraging the suspects to run.

Furthermore, when the suspects were leaving the first time couldn't the idiot manager have locked the damned door then? He kept letting them come back...further liability.

I can't boast about what I would or would not have done in a given situation but damn! that old lady has my respect.

There's no way to determine why the victim did not fight or run...some people get paralyzed in such dire situations.

Actually, it's just the opposite, the are liable due to the fact the employees didn't intervene enough to stop the attack. The laughing and posting and encouragement by the "filmmaker" has nothing to do with McDonald's.

Not true. Employees are expressly told not to intervene in any incidents whether it's a fight or even a robbery as reported by a McDonald's spokesperson responding to an incident that happened recently in our city. According to him, company policy requires them only to call the police asap.

A lawyer can and will make a case that the employees were actively encouraging the violence by their reactions though. The employee did not film the video on his own time, he was on duty at the restaurant.

babynoz said:

SonOfSoul said:

Actually, it's just the opposite, the are liable due to the fact the employees didn't intervene enough to stop the attack. The laughing and posting and encouragement by the "filmmaker" has nothing to do with McDonald's.

Not true. Employees are expressly told not to intervene in any incidents whether it's a fight or even a robbery as reported by a McDonald's spokesperson responding to an incident that happened recently in our city. According to him, company policy requires them only to call the police asap.

A lawyer can and will make a case that the employees were actively encouraging the violence by their reactions though. The employee did not film the video on his own time, he was on duty at the restaurant.

But just because that's their policy doesn't exempt them from any liability. That policy is in place to protect the employees. The lawyer's case will be McDonald's failed to provide a safe environment for its patrons.

johnart said:

Cerebus said:

Exactly. And we hear of just as many stories where people stand by and do absolutely nothing. I will say again, the internet is overrun with these videos.

Watching is not self-preservation though. This is my only issue. I get that folk might not wanna get involved (ok not really, no I don't actually get it, but recognize it), but when you don't want to be involved you go, in order to avoid trouble. You don't watch and you certainly don't tape or chuckle...those are all gross things to do in this sort of situation.

As another orger stated, it also depends what neighborhood you're in. Try being a hero in parts of NYC(especially on the subways), you take the risk of getting sliced or shot. Too many crazy mfers here, and you don't know what they're capable of. Would I take that risk for a family member or a friend? Of course, but for a stranger, my first option is to call the cops. Getting in the middle of shit would be a last resort.

Folks like to get online and say they'd do this and that. It's a whole different story in real life, when you're facing dudes bigger than you and possibly armed.

SonOfSoul said:

babynoz said:

Not true. Employees are expressly told not to intervene in any incidents whether it's a fight or even a robbery as reported by a McDonald's spokesperson responding to an incident that happened recently in our city. According to him, company policy requires them only to call the police asap.

A lawyer can and will make a case that the employees were actively encouraging the violence by their reactions though. The employee did not film the video on his own time, he was on duty at the restaurant.

But just because that's their policy doesn't exempt them from any liability. That policy is in place to protect the employees. The lawyer's case will be McDonald's failed to provide a safe environment for its patrons.

I know that. Any number of claims be made but a finding of liability involves a lot of mitigating factors. I personally wish the employees would have done something but are they required to?

As far as a safe environment goes, the girls may try to claim the same thing regarding who can and cannot access the restroom. It wouldn't surprise me.

babynoz said:

SonOfSoul said:

But just because that's their policy doesn't exempt them from any liability. That policy is in place to protect the employees. The lawyer's case will be McDonald's failed to provide a safe environment for its patrons.

I know that. Any number of claims be made but a finding of liability involves a lot of mitigating factors. I personally wish the employees would have done something but are they required to?

As far as a safe environment goes, the girls may try to claim the same thing regarding who can and cannot access the restroom. It wouldn't surprise me.

Yep, the girls can claim they felt they were in danger with a man being in the ladies room.

uPtoWnNY said:

johnart said:

Watching is not self-preservation though. This is my only issue. I get that folk might not wanna get involved (ok not really, no I don't actually get it, but recognize it), but when you don't want to be involved you go, in order to avoid trouble. You don't watch and you certainly don't tape or chuckle...those are all gross things to do in this sort of situation.

As another orger stated, it also depends what neighborhood you're in. Try being a hero in parts of NYC(especially on the subways), you take the risk of getting sliced or shot. Too many crazy mfers here, and you don't know what they're capable of. Would I take that risk for a family member or a friend? Of course, but for a stranger, my first option is to call the cops. Getting in the middle of shit would be a last resort.

Folks like to get online and say they'd do this and that. It's a whole different story in real life, when you're facing dudes bigger than you and possibly armed.

So damn true.

The passive approach is the best way.

I had two different incidences in the past couple of years where 2 people at separate times became violent and agressive towards me, no way am i going to fight back people that are violent pyschos, unstable and unpredictible, your playing with fire, and theres chances of you getting seriously hurt or killed. one scary part of one of the incidences the person was meant to be a friend and ended up being very violent on me and the other was a tall broad male stranger who i thought was carrying a knife.

Real life incidences and online attacks is completely different no forces you to be online if you dont like it switch it off and anyone can act brave or be extra nice behind there screen its all bs, its when you really meet people you see the truth.

uPtoWnNY said:

johnart said:

Watching is not self-preservation though. This is my only issue. I get that folk might not wanna get involved (ok not really, no I don't actually get it, but recognize it), but when you don't want to be involved you go, in order to avoid trouble. You don't watch and you certainly don't tape or chuckle...those are all gross things to do in this sort of situation.

As another orger stated, it also depends what neighborhood you're in. Try being a hero in parts of NYC(especially on the subways), you take the risk of getting sliced or shot. Too many crazy mfers here, and you don't know what they're capable of. Would I take that risk for a family member or a friend? Of course, but for a stranger, my first option is to call the cops. Getting in the middle of shit would be a last resort.

Folks like to get online and say they'd do this and that. It's a whole different story in real life, when you're facing dudes bigger than you and possibly armed.

It's not a whole different story for some people.

And as you can see from this video, this isn't some huge roided out musclebound dude pummeling someone. It's 2 women. A 14 year old and an 18 year old.