herb4 said:

Man, I hope there's better stuff on those 3 CD's than "Cosmic Day" because that's rather weak.

If that's the lead track then...well.

Not feeling that one at all.

Although we already know many of the tracks, albiet in lesser quality, to know that it will be a ton of varied and cool stuff! I don't know if "Cosmic Day" is going to be my favorite by a longshot but I dig the vibe Prince was putting out on this tune and I love the guitar work

ofofoffjoff said:

This could've really been an opportunity for them (the estate) to educate the audience in the sense that the inspiration for Camille came from Herlucine Barbine's memoir who was an intersex person and was later on referred to as Camille. Especially these days when intersex and the trans community is facing so much adversity in society. Prince was back then a head of the game – pushing the gender binary even further with the concept of Camille.

I presume you're thinking of his interview with Ben Greenman, when Ben asks him about his brother's theory that Herculine Barbin was the inspiration for Camille and P. responds, "Your brother is very wise." That's not a confirmation from P.; that's a non-answer answer.

I think it's important to remember that Prince always used male pronouns when referring to Camille: in the Lovesexy tourbook (as others pointed out) and in his letter to Tom Moon several years later (in response to Tom's critique of Come). Prince never said Camille was female, or intersex or transgender. And as SquirrelMeat points out, Camille is likely a state of mind, not only a high-pitched voice.

Someone pointed out the reason this voice sound even higher is because he recorded it in falsetto, then used the vary-speed recording technique (used on other Camille tracks -- that were originally sung in a lower register).


[emphasis edit]

[Edited 8/8/20 21:49pm]

RJOrion said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

I don't understand why people keep thinking Camile was a gender bending,intersex character or Prince(r.i.p.) trying to portray a woman? Prince(r.i.p.)still sounded like a man in that speeded up voice. His regular falsetto was more genderbending than that Camile voice..

maybe because Camille is a female name...i agree with the rest of what youre saying though

In France/French, Camille can be a male or female name.

jone70 said:

RJOrion said:

maybe because Camille is a female name...i agree with the rest of what youre saying though

In France/French, Camille can be a male or female name.

.

In the Netherlands, Kamiel (pronounced the same as Camille) is mostly just a boys name, almost never for girls.

love2thenines2003 said:

Romeoblu said:

love2thenines2003 said:

U can add BLANCHE .....a killer trax....not as it is described on Prince.Vault

Your post strongly suggests you've heard Blanche. Is this true? If so can you describe the song?

Not an instrumental ...i can't say more sorry !

love2thenines2003 said:

love2thenines2003 said:

PurplePassion90 said:

Hey guys first post here but as for Cosmic Day I kinda like it, it's growing on me

Romeoblu said:

jone70 said:

ofofoffjoff said:

This could've really been an opportunity for them (the estate) to educate the audience in the sense that the inspiration for Camille came from Herlucine Barbine's memoir who was an intersex person and was later on referred to as Camille. Especially these days when intersex and the trans community is facing so much adversity in society. Prince was back then a head of the game – pushing the gender binary even further with the concept of Camille.

I presume you're thinking of his interview with Ben Greenman, when Ben asks him about his brother's theory that Herculine Barbin was the inspiration for Camille and P. responds, "Your brother is very wise." That's not a confirmation from P.; that's a non-answer answer.

I think it's important to remember that Prince always used male pronouns when referring to Camille: in the Lovesexy tourbook (as others pointed out) and in his letter to Tom Moon several years later (in response to Tom's critique of Come). Prince never said Camille was female, or intersex or transgender. And as SquirrelMeat points out, Camille is likely a state of mind, not only a high-pitched voice.

Someone pointed out the reason this voice sound even higher is because he recorded it in falsetto, then used the vary-speed recording technique (used on other Camille tracks -- that were originally sung in a lower register).


[emphasis edit]

[Edited 8/8/20 21:49pm]

Correct, although my souce initially is Per Nilsen's book. Ever elusive, I agree it isn't a straight forward answer from Prince. It still however is possible it was an inspiration for him. I also agree that Prince's Camille was more of an attitude and I never stated that his Camille was intersex or transgender. What I make out of it (and that's just my interpertation) that the Herculine Barbin memoir was possibly a reference or an inspiration and I feel it loosely pops up in some of the Camille tracks either through the title Rebith Of The Flesh and specifically If I Was Your Girlfriend, where the line "If I was your girlfriend, would you let me dress you" could be directly inspired by Herculine's relationship with fellow teacher Sara – who was the only one allowed to dress them. Prince possibly was inspired by that narrative to convey his love for Sussannah. However I understand that none of these things are facts, it's all speculation which in many ways for me personally makes it all the more fascinating. I am not sure if Prince always used male pronouns when referring to Camille, since in Shockadelica – Camille is refered to as being a girl "the girl must be a witch", but then again of course confusing since Shockadelica is listed as a Camille track and this would mean that Camille would be singing about Camille? It ain't all black & white when it comes down to creating work, something can have a multitude of inspirations, references or motivations and can also be conflicting. So it's not really about being right or wrong.

•

In the end me bringing up Herculine Barbin in reference to Prince's Camille, was an attempt to possibly give a bit more context to the compartmentalized notion (I am seeing online everywhere) that Camille was "Prince's female alter-ego". Which I think actually doesn't do it justice. With much of his unreleased or shelved work (Camille, The Crystall Ball, The Black Album) I often wonder if these works would have been released at the time – what the response could or would've been. Prince was already pushing the gender binary with just being Prince – was Camille possibly pushing this even further. What Prince intended is one thing, it all could've just been for the sake of controversy. There's a lot of music out there in the world that has become hallmarks of cultural movements – eventhough the artist themselves didn't neccessarily intend it that way. The audience or collective consciousness made it so, and that is simply the beauty of art.

•

Prince has left us with a lot of unreleased music as well as a lot of unanswered questions (the king of mystique). It has kept me hooked on his music for decades now. Cosmic Day is clearly one of those tracks that ignites a lot of discussion and I think it's pretty amazing 34 years later we are having these conversations. He must be laughing his ass of right now. Perhaps the ultimate prank.

Worst vault track ever.

[Edited 8/9/20 6:58am]

Poplife88 said:

It’s certainly growing on me. But OMG does my husband hate it.

This

I love love love it (apart from the tra la la la's).

Seriously though - headphones save marriages

djThunderfunk said:

Worst vault track ever.

[Edited 8/9/20 6:58am]

it is not one that ever got my attention. I have had it in comparable quality for sometime... without the last 2 mins of guitar it falls pretty flat. But that is okay! I never put it on a cd...and I often make cds with 60+ songs on it... (i have to make a new one now that some of songs on my current one are on this set...which I had to do last year when some of the songs were on 1999)

djThunderfunk said:

ofofoffjoff said:

jone70 said:

I presume you're thinking of his interview with Ben Greenman, when Ben asks him about his brother's theory that Herculine Barbin was the inspiration for Camille and P. responds, "Your brother is very wise." That's not a confirmation from P.; that's a non-answer answer.

I think it's important to remember that Prince always used male pronouns when referring to Camille: in the Lovesexy tourbook (as others pointed out) and in his letter to Tom Moon several years later (in response to Tom's critique of Come). Prince never said Camille was female, or intersex or transgender. And as SquirrelMeat points out, Camille is likely a state of mind, not only a high-pitched voice.

Someone pointed out the reason this voice sound even higher is because he recorded it in falsetto, then used the vary-speed recording technique (used on other Camille tracks -- that were originally sung in a lower register).


[emphasis edit]

[Edited 8/8/20 21:49pm]

Correct, although my souce initially is Per Nilsen's book. Ever elusive, I agree it isn't a straight forward answer from Prince. It still however is possible it was an inspiration for him. I also agree that Prince's Camille was more of an attitude and I never stated that his Camille was intersex or transgender. What I make out of it (and that's just my interpertation) that the Herculine Barbin memoir was possibly a reference or an inspiration and I feel it loosely pops up in some of the Camille tracks either through the title Rebith Of The Flesh and specifically If I Was Your Girlfriend, where the line "If I was your girlfriend, would you let me dress you" could be directly inspired by Herculine's relationship with fellow teacher Sara – who was the only one allowed to dress them. Prince possibly was inspired by that narrative to convey his love for Sussannah. However I understand that none of these things are facts, it's all speculation which in many ways for me personally makes it all the more fascinating.

....

In the end me bringing up Herculine Barbin in reference to Prince's Camille, was an attempt to possibly give a bit more context to the compartmentalized notion (I am seeing online everywhere) that Camille was "Prince's female alter-ego". Which I think actually doesn't do it justice. With much of his unreleased or shelved work (Camille, The Crystall Ball, The Black Album) I often wonder if these works would have been released at the time – what the response could or would've been. Prince was already pushing the gender binary with just being Prince – was Camille possibly pushing this even further. What Prince intended is one thing, it all could've just been for the sake of controversy. There's a lot of music out there in the world that has become hallmarks of cultural movements – eventhough the artist themselves didn't neccessarily intend it that way. The audience or collective consciousness made it so, and that is simply the beauty of art.

Actually it is straightforward -- Prince only referred to Camille with male pronouns. You say yourself that you're speculating, which is fine if not a bit irresponsible because as you mention, "I am seeing online everywhere that Camille was 'Prince's female alter ego.'" That's exactly what SquirrelMeat was referring to -- people with less knowledge labeling Camille as something he's not. And then people read posts like yours and repeat incorrect information because you didn't say upfront you were speculating; you presented it as fact. IIWYG is commonly accepted to be about Susannah and Wendy's closeness as twins or more loosely, how woman/girl friends share clothes, feelings, etc. that they don't always share with the men in their life. To tie that line specifically to Sarah and Herculine is quite a stretch, imo.

Here's some factual food for your speculative thoughts: there is a French novel by Alexandre Dumas, entitled La Dame aux Camélias, (commonly known in English as Camille). The flowers, camélia/camille, feature prominently in the life of the protagonist. In the 1930s Greta Garbo starred in a film adaptation of it, which earned her an Oscar nomination. We know P. had a penchant for old Hollywood. In one of the auctions in the past few years there were some prints for sale from his Galpin Ave house, including a Louis Icart print of...The Lady of the Camillias. So who's to say Prince didn't choose the name based on the film? Speculate away! But remember -- he still always used male pronouns for Camille.

ofofoffjoff said:

I am not sure if Prince always used male pronouns when referring to Camille, since in Shockadelica – Camille is refered to as being a girl "the girl must be a witch", but then again of course confusing since Shockadelica is listed as a Camille track and this would mean that Camille would be singing about Camille? It ain't all black & white when it comes down to creating work, something can have a multitude of inspirations, references or motivations and can also be conflicting. So it's not really about being right or wrong.

Shockadelica is the woman; she's the witch, she has a shockidelicar. Camille is the reason for his feeling, which fits into the idea that Camille is a state of mind. (In the extended version, Shockadelica is also a feeling -- the lonely cold.)

djThunderfunk said:

herb4 said:

Man, I hope there's better stuff on those 3 CD's than "Cosmic Day" because that's rather weak.

If that's the lead track then...well.

Not feeling that one at all.

In what world is this, the third released track from this reissue with exactly zero extra promotion, the "lead" track?

jone70 said:

ofofoffjoff said:

Actually it is straightforward -- Prince only referred to Camille with male pronouns. You say yourself that you're speculating, which is fine if not a bit irresponsible because as you mention, "I am seeing online everywhere that Camille was 'Prince's female alter ego.'" That's exactly what SquirrelMeat was referring to -- people with less knowledge labeling Camille as something he's not. And then people read posts like yours and repeat incorrect information because you didn't say upfront you were speculating; you presented it as fact. IIWYG is commonly accepted to be about Susannah and Wendy's closeness as twins or more loosely, how woman/girl friends share clothes, feelings, etc. that they don't always share with the men in their life. To tie that line specifically to Sarah and Herculine is quite a stretch, imo.

Here's some factual food for your speculative thoughts: there is a French novel by Alexandre Dumas, entitled La Dame aux Camélias, (commonly known in English as Camille). The flowers, camélia/camille, feature prominently in the life of the protagonist. In the 1930s Greta Garbo starred in a film adaptation of it, which earned her an Oscar nomination. We know P. had a penchant for old Hollywood. In one of the auctions in the past few years there were some prints for sale from his Galpin Ave house, including a Louis Icart print of...The Lady of the Camillias. So who's to say Prince didn't choose the name based on the film? Speculate away! But remember -- he still always used male pronouns for Camille.

ofofoffjoff said:

I am not sure if Prince always used male pronouns when referring to Camille, since in Shockadelica – Camille is refered to as being a girl "the girl must be a witch", but then again of course confusing since Shockadelica is listed as a Camille track and this would mean that Camille would be singing about Camille? It ain't all black & white when it comes down to creating work, something can have a multitude of inspirations, references or motivations and can also be conflicting. So it's not really about being right or wrong.

Shockadelica is the woman; she's the witch, she has a shockidelicar. Camille is the reason for his feeling, which fits into the idea that Camille is a state of mind. (In the extended version, Shockadelica is also a feeling -- the lonely cold.)

No, I was saying that a lot of people online (fb, instagram, etc.) are stating Camille being Prince's female alter-ego – which I do not agree with and find it a way too compartementalized notion. I wasn't reinstating that idea at all, but challenging it. I also agreed with SquirrelMeat that songs with a sped-up voice are too quickly assigned as a Camille track. That's really where this whole conversation started. Which as far as I am concerned we all agree on.

•

A strecth or not, the Herculin Barbin link, isn't something I fabricated myself it has been written about (Per Nilsen) in context of Camille. While it was merely hinted at, so not factual, I still was and still am intrigued by this possible inspiration (I am sure you understand the difference between an inspiration and duplication of an idea or concept). Whichever way we put it there is an ambiquity surrounding Camille. Also not contesting the Sussannah/Wendy story in regards to IIWYG, but why would it not be possible for Prince to bridge the Herculin story simultaneously in inspiration of this track? Since Herculine and Sara in the memoir were both female colleagues of eachother at that moment and while lovers, at that time they probably had to pretend to be girlfriends. While in reality Herculine was born with male genitalia, is it possible that Prince could relate to that story desiring to be as close to someone as he witnnessed the closeness between Sussanah & Wendy. I don't see any irresponsibility in sharing my personal view on this. As much as I wouldn't find it irresponsible for you to link the lovely reference of La Dame aux Camélias as a possible link to the invention of the name Camille. We are all just shuffling snippets of information here and there is no harm in trying to puzzle things together. I think it all just adds to the richness of it all whether we'll ever know the truth around it or not. Whether you agree with me or not that has nothing to do with me mis informing. Unless you of course have the receipts – you can try an prove me otherwise.

•

Lastly, perhaps my views aren't waterproof neccessarily and happy to be challenged and learn from other people's perspectives and knowledge (thanks for the Shockedelica clarification, it is appreciated (Shockedeilica being a woman, and then being a feeling ). But I do have to say that your response however is misconstrueing things I said earlier (or i'll give you the benefit of the doubt as in wrongly interperted) which really comes across as a ticket for you to try and school me in a patronizing manner. It is good to take pride in your knowledge, but wrong to belittle others with it.

•

Maybe not intended that way! Just letting you know. Not hurt it by it, but a bit of kindeness and opnessess goes a much longer way.

[Edited 8/9/20 12:00pm]

jone70 said:

Actually it is straightforward -- Prince only referred to Camille with male pronouns. You say yourself that you're speculating, which is fine if not a bit irresponsible because as you mention, "I am seeing online everywhere that Camille was 'Prince's female alter ego.'"

Hold up. Virtually everything written and understood about Camille is based on what came from Prince and Prince's camp. Perhaps it was reductive while marketing a project some feared would be challenging, but Prince never sought to correct it. A great majority of what leaked in terms of unauthorized bio turned out to be accurate or based on something. So while it's wonderful you don't have the dogma of American sexuality, and you can reference French literature that might relate, we would have to pretend Prince was in tune with that, and while it's possible, there's virtually nothing to indicate that.

Was Prince making a deeper statement? Sure, even if he was consciously trying to.

Prince is a man. He's Camille but Camille is a persona or mood or concept, or performance art, or as was publicized, his female side. Being in touch with a non gender normative mindset doesn't make Prince less of a man. So he is a he.

Nobody has talked about Prince having gender dysmorphia by saying Camille is his feminine side...which is exactly what we've been told consistently without correction.

[Edited 8/9/20 12:14pm]

lavendardrummachine said:

jone70 said:

Hold up. Virtually everything written and understood about Camille is based on what came from Prince and Prince's camp. Perhaps it was reductive while marketing a project some feared would be challenging, but Prince never sought to correct it. A great majority of what leaked in terms of unauthorized bio turned out to be accurate or based on something. So while it's wonderful you don't have the dogma of American sexuality, and you can reference French literature that might relate, we would have to pretend Prince was in tune with that, and while it's possible, there's virtually nothing to indicate that.

Was Prince making a deeper statement? Sure, even if he was consciously trying to.

Prince is a man. He's Camille but Camille is a persona or mood or concept, or performance art, or as was publicized, his female side. Being in touch with a non gender normative mindset doesn't make Prince less of a man. So he is a he.

Nobody has talked about Prince having gender dysmorphia by saying Camille is his feminine side...which is exactly what we've been told consistently without correction.

[Edited 8/9/20 12:14pm]

Thank You! Exactly the point I was trying to make through a very complicated route

All I know is, Steve Vai must be thinking, "He WAS listening to me!"

*

This is taking a fair few listens to get into. I'm finding the second half of the song less 1980s teen film soundtrack, than the first.

RJOrion said:

ofofoffjoff said:

lavendardrummachine said:

Hold up. Virtually everything written and understood about Camille is based on what came from Prince and Prince's camp. Perhaps it was reductive while marketing a project some feared would be challenging, but Prince never sought to correct it. A great majority of what leaked in terms of unauthorized bio turned out to be accurate or based on something. So while it's wonderful you don't have the dogma of American sexuality, and you can reference French literature that might relate, we would have to pretend Prince was in tune with that, and while it's possible, there's virtually nothing to indicate that.

Was Prince making a deeper statement? Sure, even if he was consciously trying to.

Prince is a man. He's Camille but Camille is a persona or mood or concept, or performance art, or as was publicized, his female side. Being in touch with a non gender normative mindset doesn't make Prince less of a man. So he is a he.

Nobody has talked about Prince having gender dysmorphia by saying Camille is his feminine side...which is exactly what we've been told consistently without correction.

[Edited 8/9/20 12:14pm]

Thank You! Exactly the point I was trying to make through a very complicated route

If virtually everything understood about Camille is based on what came directly from Prince, then there is no basis that Camille was a female alter ego. Prince never said that, and in fact, Prince referred to Camille as "he" or "his," as has been mentioned by a few people on this thread.

ofofoffjoff wrote, "...the inspiration for Camille came from Herlucine Barbine's memoir who was an intersex person and was later on referred to as Camille." which you admitted you sourced from Per Nielsen. But what was his source for that? The Ben Greenman interview? First you're saying Herculine was an inspiration for Camille, but then you say that's your speculation. Which is it?

@lavendardrummachine, if you don't believe there is anything to indicate Prince was in tune with French literature then the whole idea that Camille was inspired by Herculine Barbin falls apart completely. It was Michel Foucault who (re)discovered Herculine's memoir in the French Department of Public Hygiene (in the 1970s). Foucault was French, Herculine was French. So was Prince aware of Foucault & Barbin or not? I believe that he was, but that doesn't mean for certain that Camille is inspired by Herculine. The two are not mutually exclusive. If IIWYG wasn't a "Camille" song, would people even be having the conversation of Camille's gender? The rest of the confirmed Camille-attributed songs that reference sexual relationships are pretty heteronormative.

I'm not sure why fact would be patronizing. I'm appreciative when someone points out facts to me.

RJOrion said:

Moonbeam said:

RJOrion said:

it has my vote...i thought moonbeam levels was bad, but when i hear P screeching tralalalalala, a new level of worst has been achieved

Both of these are among my favorites ever. In fact, “Moonbeam Levels” is my favorite Prince song.

Cool! Diversity of opinion is a GOOD thing, and Prince was eclectic enough to please all of us.

jaawwnn said:

herb4 said:

Man, I hope there's better stuff on those 3 CD's than "Cosmic Day" because that's rather weak.

If that's the lead track then...well.

Not feeling that one at all.

In what world is this, the third released track from this reissue with exactly zero extra promotion, the "lead" track?

The world where I haven't heard any other songs that the estate officially released for SoTT Deluxe I suppose (?) So please accept my apologies if I missed two previous ones. I've been a little busy the last 4 - 6 months trying not to die so maybe I have trouble keeping up.

Cosmic Day was the first officially released single from the new upcoming collection that I'd heard.

What were the other two? Google and none of the stickies here turn up anything.

So, short answer in regards to "what world?", I guess is "my world", which admittedly may be limited, lacking in attention and perhaps I'm a little behind and don't keep up with this shit like I used to. As a fan, perhaps I am slacking.

So if it's not too much trouble though, please post the previous two official estate releases for me and cut me some slack in the process.

Thanks in advance.