Phase3 said:

RJOrion said:

86 In A Large Room With No Light Coco Boys original Extralovable 30 minute I Would Die 4 U [Edited 8/9/20 15:29pm]

solid list, decidedly UNSOLID cosmic day and moonbeam opinions

Dandroppedadime said:

A lot of talk about Camille and ‘its’ origin and meaning. Not to poo poo anyone’s theories or thoughts, but to me it feels as if Prince was playing around with vox effects and liked it enough to try it out on a few songs and he was happy with the results but wanted to distance himself from them so came up with the name Camille. Similar to all the other pseudonyms he came up with.

And similar to other psuedonyms he came up with he had a bit of a phase of obsession with the psuedonym and would use it without particular consistency just because he liked it.

I think of that Quincy Jones story where he claims he addressed MJ as "Camille" the entire time they met. I've read people here doubt the veracity of that quote, but, he was literally smacking the Camille label at everything and anything tangentially related to the "concept" at that period in his career. It's like Paisley Park or Uptown or the New Power Generation.... everyones goin' Camille.

As for "Cosmic Day"

Some fans want linn drum + funk workout #5,083, all I ever wanted from "new" Prince songs is exactly what made me a fan of Prince in the first place--"new" ideas, "new" attempts", "new" concepts... I believe he could do anything, and I love when he tries anything new musically. Cosmic Day fits that bill. I will always appreciate and enjoy something wholly unique in his catalogue over something rote that I know he could do it in his sleep, even if it is indeed "fonky".

RJOrion said:

Phase3 said:

Neversin said:

herb4 said:

lavendardrummachine said:

Hold up. Virtually everything written and understood about Camille is based on what came from Prince and Prince's camp.
Prince is a man. He's Camille but Camille is a persona or mood or concept, or performance art, or as was publicized, his female side

No...
The dumb idea that "Camille" was Prince's "female side" was decided by some idiot reviewer (with an axe to grind) from some shitty music mag who draw that conclusion because of the track "If I Was Your Girlfriend"; either because he was too dumb to understand the, quite easy to understand and straight forward, meaning of or lyrics to the song or, even dumber, failed to listen to it and formed and uninformed opinion on it...
Dumbass fans with a lack of basic English skills parroted this dumbfuck idea and now decades later this baseless and badly made up idea is still being discussed...

Neversin.

jone70 said:

@lavendardrummachine, if you don't believe there is anything to indicate Prince was in tune with French literature then the whole idea that Camille was inspired by Herculine Barbin falls apart completely. It was Michel Foucault who (re)discovered Herculine's memoir in the French Department of Public Hygiene (in the 1970s). Foucault was French, Herculine was French. So was Prince aware of Foucault & Barbin or not? I believe that he was, but that doesn't mean for certain that Camille is inspired by Herculine. The two are not mutually exclusive. If IIWYG wasn't a "Camille" song, would people even be having the conversation of Camille's gender? The rest of the confirmed Camille-attributed songs that reference sexual relationships are pretty heteronormative.

I'm not sure why fact would be patronizing. I'm appreciative when someone points out facts to me.

Where did I say Prince was aware or French literature at all? Wasn't me.


Look, I could see a journalist or ridiculous French model friend saying "You know monchichi, your bikini is very French cut, and the way you carry your geneder roles is so provocative and reminiscent of Herculine Barbin, you must love him?" and giving him a book as a gift. Yet there's zero basis for that at all. It's my imagination.

I've never heard of Barbin until this discussion but I'm not a total stranger to gender statements in art. Prince wasn't an academic taking courses in Foucault, and Foucault didn't become trendy in US universities until the 90's. It's more likely he would have been given a book by Genet instead, if any at all, or maybe he saw a production of The Maids. Maybe I'm forgetting, but I can't think of anything similar in Prince's career before or after that would have him using an obscure literary reference, let alone a French literary one.

But all of that is neither here nor there, I'm just answering you because you addressed that question to me. I don't think Prince needed an academic reference point for Camille anyway. Again, if you reject the basic concept that we were told Camille is Prince tapping into his female side, then what exactly do you think Camille is? There is no Camille then.

Camille is a guy who likes helium? Camille is Prince's French alter ego?

Neversin said:

No...
The dumb idea that "Camille" was Prince's "female side" was decided by some idiot reviewer (with an axe to grind) from some shitty music mag who draw that conclusion because of the track "If I Was Your Girlfriend"; either because he was too dumb to understand the, quite easy to understand and straight forward, meaning of or lyrics to the song or, even dumber, failed to listen to it and formed and uninformed opinion on it...
Dumbass fans with a lack of basic English skills parroted this dumbfuck idea and now decades later this baseless and badly made up idea is still being discussed...

Neversin.

A lot of us were around, we remember it was more than just one reviewer or your patronizing view of fans repeating it.

Was there any concept behind Camille in your mind?

Unlike other psuedonyms he planned to release a completed work under the name. Clearly there was a concept it wasn't just an effect, because not all the tracks are dependent on the effect. Hell, you could say he was trying his hand a Aqua Boogie material and I'd even buy that, but suggesting there's no alternative answer or answer needed is just contrarian. You're well respected here, if you're privy to something you want to share, please do...otherwise you're not just challenging "dumbass fans".

lavendardrummachine said:

jone70 said:

@lavendardrummachine, if you don't believe there is anything to indicate Prince was in tune with French literature then the whole idea that Camille was inspired by Herculine Barbin falls apart completely. It was Michel Foucault who (re)discovered Herculine's memoir in the French Department of Public Hygiene (in the 1970s). Foucault was French, Herculine was French. So was Prince aware of Foucault & Barbin or not? I believe that he was, but that doesn't mean for certain that Camille is inspired by Herculine. The two are not mutually exclusive. If IIWYG wasn't a "Camille" song, would people even be having the conversation of Camille's gender? The rest of the confirmed Camille-attributed songs that reference sexual relationships are pretty heteronormative.

I'm not sure why fact would be patronizing. I'm appreciative when someone points out facts to me.

Where did I say Prince was aware or French literature at all? Wasn't me.

Sigh. That was exactly my point. You said, "So while it's wonderful you don't have the dogma of American sexuality, and you can reference French literature that might relate, we would have to pretend Prince was in tune with that, and while it's possible, there's virtually nothing to indicate that." If you think we would have to pretend Prince was in tune with French lit, then there is no way "we" can then also believe Camille was inspired by Herculine Barbin or Foucault. You are saying there is little proof that he knew anything about French lit. Personally, I disagree; he was very well read. Was he reading Foucault? Maybe not, but who amongst us really knows?

Look, I could see a journalist or ridiculous French model friend saying "You know monchichi, your bikini is very French cut, and the way you carry your geneder roles is so provocative and reminiscent of Herculine Barbin, you must love him?" and giving him a book as a gift. Yet there's zero basis for that at all. It's my imagination.

I've never heard of Barbin until this discussion but I'm not a total stranger to gender statements in art. Prince wasn't an academic taking courses in Foucault, and Foucault didn't become trendy in US universities until the 90's. It's more likely he would have been given a book by Genet instead, if any at all, or maybe he saw a production of The Maids. Maybe I'm forgetting, but I can't think of anything similar in Prince's career before or after that would have him using an obscure literary reference, let alone a French literary one.

I think Foucault was academically known prior to the 1990s. In terms of other literary references, there's "The Ballad of Dorothy Parker" yet he claimed he didn't know who Dorothy Parker was. (Later disproven, I believe, by Susan Rogers in a Wax Poetics article, iirc.) While not literary, there is an unreleased song (I'll Do Anything) that seemingly references a specific work (L.H.O.O.Q.) by Marcel Duchamp which I think would be considered obscure to most people. What one person considers common knowledge may be something entirely new to another.

But all of that is neither here nor there, I'm just answering you because you addressed that question to me. I don't think Prince needed an academic reference point for Camille anyway. Again, if you reject the basic concept that we were told Camille is Prince tapping into his female side, then what exactly do you think Camille is? There is no Camille then.

Camille is a guy who likes helium? Camille is Prince's French alter ego?

I don't think Camille is a female alter ego, nor French. The French thing only comes up because people are always trying to tie Camille to Herculine Barbain. As I wrote earlier, he's more a state of mind. I'm curious why the Estate attributed Cosmic Day to Camille. I wonder if they found something in the Vault that indicated it was Camille or if they are just assuming because of trhe ecording technique.

[clarification edit]

[Edited 8/9/20 19:55pm]

jone70 said:

he was very well read.

Ehhhh. I mean... according to who?

Dorothy Parker is a pop culture figure in the US, and was very in vogue among the New Wave and Punk crowd, few of whom actually read her work. Duchamp and readymade art is sort of basic art knowledge in the US, even if people only know a couple works or the name.

He read Rilke, and the books found at Paisley aren't basic, but French theory? I'm in the camp that it's unlikely, agree that we don't know, and given that - that it ultimately that it also doesn't matter.


You seem to be arguing that Prince would have to be in tune with French theory in order to be making certain statements through Camille? Prince never corrected anyone who thought Camille was female or non gender normative. When asked about a reference to a hermaphrodite he responded positively. Camille is obviously a character concept.


Anyway....Despite earlier replies you now sound like you also generally agree with my earlier statement that Prince is Camille but Camille is a persona or mood or concept, or performance art, or as was publicized, his female side. Well, you don't think female...so uh, other sex? Third Sex?

[Edited 8/9/20 21:20pm]

lavendardrummachine said:

jone70 said:

he was very well read.

Ehhhh. I mean... according to who?

Dorothy Parker is a pop culture figure in the US, and was very in vogue among the New Wave and Punk crowd, few of whom actually read her work. Duchamp and readymade art is sort of basic art knowledge in the US, even if people only know a couple works or the name.

He read Rilke, and the books found at Paisley aren't basic, but French theory? I'm in the camp that it's unlikely, agree that we don't know, and given that - that it ultimately that it also doesn't matter.


You seem to be arguing that Prince would have to be in tune with French theory in order to be making certain statements through Camille? Prince never corrected anyone who thought Camille was female or non gender normative. When asked about a reference to a hermaphrodite he responded positively. Camille is obviously a character concept.


Anyway....Despite earlier replies you now sound like you also generally agree with my earlier statement that Prince is Camille but Camille is a persona or mood or concept, or performance art, or as was publicized, his female side. Well, you don't think female...so uh, other sex? Third Sex?

[Edited 8/9/20 21:20pm]

You've completely misunderstood pretty much everything I've written in each of my posts and I'm not interested in explaining myself further.

[addition edit]

[Edited 8/10/20 7:08am]

lavendardrummachine said:

A lot of us were around, we remember it was more than just one reviewer or your patronizing view of fans repeating it.

Sure... It were more idiot reviewers (and music shows and whatnot) either repeating the same bullshit or making up an explanation based only on the title of the track (there were a shitload of UK, Dutch, German and US mags that repeated the same bullshit back then...)
This was when mags printed their "reviews" weeks before the album was out, so fans read them and idiot fans with no comprehension skills ran with it and even after hearing the song still continue to spread this nonsense...

Was there any concept behind Camille in your mind?

See some earlier posts...

But why care what I think? Inform yourself, weed out the bullshit and then make up your own mind...
In this case it's just an assumption based on stupidity that "Camille" was Prince's "female side"...

Neversin.

herb4 said:

jaawwnn said:

In what world is this, the third released track from this reissue with exactly zero extra promotion, the "lead" track?

The world where I haven't heard any other songs that the estate officially released for SoTT Deluxe I suppose (?) So please accept my apologies if I missed two previous ones. I've been a little busy the last 4 - 6 months trying not to die so maybe I have trouble keeping up.

Cosmic Day was the first officially released single from the new upcoming collection that I'd heard.

What were the other two? Google and none of the stickies here turn up anything.

So, short answer in regards to "what world?", I guess is "my world", which admittedly may be limited, lacking in attention and perhaps I'm a little behind and don't keep up with this shit like I used to. As a fan, perhaps I am slacking.

So if it's not too much trouble though, please post the previous two official estate releases for me and cut me some slack in the process.

Thanks in advance.

ah, fair enough! You should listen to the other two tracks released so, you're missing out!

on first listening one thought: did he write this with a female band in mind? Maybe as a gift to the Bangles?

Krid said:

RJOrion said:

RJOrion said:

Phase3 said:

What are your favorite unreleased songs?

86 In A Large Room
With No Light Coco
Boys original Extralovable
30 minute I Would Die 4 U

Now wait a second.


...A sophisticated mass-produced cacophony of no-win situations
That aren't right?

La la-la-la
La la-la-la
Shalalala-lala-laaaaa
Shalalala-lala-laaaaa

...that's Shakespeare to you?

Not to mention the la-la-la's from the girls
during the chorus, suprisingly similar to the Cosmic Day ones.


You have very little
to no point at all.

Neversin said:

See some earlier posts...

But why care what I think? Inform yourself, weed out the bullshit and then make up your own mind...
In this case it's just an assumption based on stupidity that "Camille" was Prince's "female side"...

Neversin.

Well you're downtalking "dumbass fans" positioning yourself as if you're privy to something, then ask why anyone cares what you think? you said it's Prince's "sexual side", then you make assumptions citing his feelings on social issues and sexaulity from 10 years after Camille, then obsfucated a bunch while hurling insults.

You also suggest he was planning a film where the audience wouldn't know it was Prince until a big reveal. Okaaay, that's a contradiction.


"If I was Your Girlfriend" actually has audio indicators of gender duality.

You mentioned lyrics, but listen to the song and it's impossible to ignore the vocal tone changes specifically when it dips lower to sing "man" in "when I was your man". It's past tense, and a play on words, same way he did with "When You Were Mine" with the line "When he was there. Sleeping in between the two of us". It's intentionally cheeky, and intentionally written that way. Maybe only stupid fans can follow that?

wasitgood4u said:

I saw Camille mainly as a weird cheeky persona, like those used by GC or Bootsy...

Finally, that's valid, but there's still a persona there.

GC or Bowie, those alter egos had a reason though, they weren't like Prince's Alexander Nevermind, Gemini or Tora Tora (I guess we don't totally know about this one though). Joey Coco and Christopher Tracy are debatable even knowing about a realized and unrealized project. Princes Jamie Starr, and old man Jazz "pimp" voice, were not that deep.

lavendardrummachine said:
you said it's Prince's "sexual side"

I didn't say that...

"If I was Your Girlfriend" actually has audio indicators of gender duality.

No it doesn't, you're just reaching now... He's just emphasizing a word...

same way he did with "When You Were Mine" with the line "When he was there. Sleeping in between the two of us". It's intentionally cheeky, and intentionally written that way. Maybe only stupid fans can follow that?

You just said it yourself; it was just a cheeky play on words, only stupid fans take a line like that literally...

Neversin.

bonatoc said:

Neversin said:

lavendardrummachine said:
you said it's Prince's "sexual side"

I didn't say that...

The "Camille" persona was just an act (not even a female act, he just used the name for the mystery of it, in his early he did the same for his own "Prince" act by toying with his sexuality etc.) he concocted for a play/movie that would have (probably) "The Kid" compete with this new funky and mysterious artist called "Camille" who was beating him in the music game with the big reveal at the end being that "Camille" and "The Kid" were one and the same person ("Prince")...

[Edited 8/10/20 13:35pm]

controversy99 said:

herb4 said:

The world where I haven't heard any other songs that the estate officially released for SoTT Deluxe I suppose (?) So please accept my apologies if I missed two previous ones. I've been a little busy the last 4 - 6 months trying not to die so maybe I have trouble keeping up.

Cosmic Day was the first officially released single from the new upcoming collection that I'd heard.

What were the other two? Google and none of the stickies here turn up anything.

So, short answer in regards to "what world?", I guess is "my world", which admittedly may be limited, lacking in attention and perhaps I'm a little behind and don't keep up with this shit like I used to. As a fan, perhaps I am slacking.

So if it's not too much trouble though, please post the previous two official estate releases for me and cut me some slack in the process.

Thanks in advance.

This is an odd comment. The first two releases were Witness 4 the Prosecution and I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man (1979 demo). One of these is sticky at this very moment. I don’t quite understand how you could miss that. I’m not trying to be mean or anything; it’s just weird. Btw, I agree that Cosmic Day wouldn’t be a good first release. But the actual first and second releases were solid, imo.

My bad.

I totally missed them both. Thanks though

wasitgood4u said:

I can relate to almost all the comments on this thread. My first reaction was that it's throwaway that was meant for the vault, especially the cheesy melody, but from the start I found the production interesting. Been listening on repeat because it's fascinating but still wouldn't say I love it. Fits to me with Good Love, All my Dreams etc, but thinking of it as intended for a female singer a la Sheena Easton or the Bangles def makes a lot of sense. For so,e reason, it keeps bringing to mind the C&D album for some reason. Dinner with Delores keeps popping in my head, not sure why. Imagine it with regular vocals - could fit on the album, guess because of the guitar, which is cool. Overall, agree with the general consensus - fascinating song, glad we have, but understand why it was vaulted. And the Camille discussion is cool. Never got the female after ego idea either, Camille's clearly a guy - but ,a year they meant an expression of P's feminine side? I.e. P as a male expressing his feminine side = Camille? (Not that he ever had a prob expressing his feminine side as himself!) I saw Camille mainly as a weird cheeky persona, like those used by GC or Bootsy...

Good point. The "cheesy melody" is what sours me on it too but, like most Prince songs, there ARE some layers in there worth diggin for. It's not terrible but the La la la thing is not grabbing me, nor is the drum sound. I like where he takes it around the last third of the song.

For some reason, it reminds me of "Wall of Berlin" and I'm not sure why.