I don't understand why people keep thinking Camile was a gender bending,intersex character or Prince(r.i.p.) trying to portray a woman? Prince(r.i.p.)still sounded like a man in that speeded up voice. His regular falsetto was more genderbending than that Camile voice..

ofofoffjoff said:

And the estate isn't helping much either with their press release for Cosmic Day – indirectly stating it being a "Camille" track. What evidence do they have?

This could've really been an opportunity for them (the estate) to educate the audience in the sense that the inspiration for Camille came from Herlucine Barbine's memoir who was an intersex person and was later on referred to as Camille. Especially these days when intersex and the trans community is facing so much adversity in society. Prince was back then a head of the game – pushing the gender binary even further with the concept of Camille. Was this perhaps another reason why Warners balked at the idea of an entire Camille album aka the original Crystal Ball (as the BG tapes suggest)? As the concept itself was too controversial at the time? Did Prince push it too far with Warners at the time, presenting a large volume of work and a total name change?

It's kind of fascinating how important the Camille persona was to Prince – he pretty much held onto it all the way until Lovesexy.

I am also curious for Wally on the SDE– as the leaked version also had a sped-up voice and I remember people on the org slowing down the track at normal speed (thinking it was tinkered with). In the end I also don't think Cosmic Day was created for someone else. It's just Prince creating a highly experimental track.

Still listening to it on repeat.

Why do you want The Estate to spread even more lies and misinformation??
And especially about topics Prince didn't even support and/or was even opposed to (Intersex, Trans)?
Remember that Prince was the guy that demanded Wendy and Lisa to publicly denounce their Homosexuality before he would let them produce music they helped him create in the 1980's...
Prince only used the Male/Female, Straight/Gay thing to shock, cause controversy and to let people notice him, you know, simple marketing tactics to make more money...
Plus, Prince; that guy who was vehemently against tattoos, blood tranfusions and other ways of "body altering" practices, you really think he would be pro Trans?? Intersex I could imagine simply for being a "natural anomaly"...

The "Camille" persona was just an act (not even a female act, he just used the name for the mystery of it, in his early he did the same for his own "Prince" act by toying with his sexuality etc.) he concocted for a play/movie that would have (probably) "The Kid" compete with this new funky and mysterious artist called "Camille" who was beating him in the music game with the big reveal at the end being that "Camille" and "The Kid" were one and the same person ("Prince")...

WBR wanted to release the "Camille" album but wanted "Prince" to be referenced simply because "Prince" on an album sold more and needed less marketing than the unknown "Camille"...
Prince pulled the album and not WBR...
If WBR pulled the album it probably would have been because "Under The Cherry Moon" bombed and they didn't want to risk another flop with his "Camille" movie...

Neversin.

[Edited 8/8/20 9:30am]

What a delight. That's my Prince!

ChocolateBox3121 said:

I don't understand why people keep thinking Camile was a gender bending,intersex character or Prince(r.i.p.) trying to portray a woman? Prince(r.i.p.)still sounded like a man in that speeded up voice. His regular falsetto was more genderbending than that Camile voice..

maybe because Camille is a female name...i agree with the rest of what youre saying though

Neversin said:

ofofoffjoff said:

And the estate isn't helping much either with their press release for Cosmic Day – indirectly stating it being a "Camille" track. What evidence do they have?

This could've really been an opportunity for them (the estate) to educate the audience in the sense that the inspiration for Camille came from Herlucine Barbine's memoir who was an intersex person and was later on referred to as Camille. Especially these days when intersex and the trans community is facing so much adversity in society. Prince was back then a head of the game – pushing the gender binary even further with the concept of Camille. Was this perhaps another reason why Warners balked at the idea of an entire Camille album aka the original Crystal Ball (as the BG tapes suggest)? As the concept itself was too controversial at the time? Did Prince push it too far with Warners at the time, presenting a large volume of work and a total name change?

It's kind of fascinating how important the Camille persona was to Prince – he pretty much held onto it all the way until Lovesexy.

I am also curious for Wally on the SDE– as the leaked version also had a sped-up voice and I remember people on the org slowing down the track at normal speed (thinking it was tinkered with). In the end I also don't think Cosmic Day was created for someone else. It's just Prince creating a highly experimental track.

Still listening to it on repeat.

Why do you want The Estate to spread even more lies and misinformation??
And especially about topics Prince didn't even support and/or was even opposed to (Intersex, Trans)?
Remember that Prince was the guy that demanded Wendy and Lisa to publicly denounce their Homosexuality before he would let them produce music they helped him create in the 1980's...
Prince only used the Male/Female, Straight/Gay thing to shock, cause controversy and to let people notice him, you know, simple marketing tactics to make more money...
Plus, Prince; that guy who was vehemently against tattoos, blood tranfusions and other ways of "body altering" practices, you really think he would be pro Trans??

The "Camille" persona was just an act (not even a female act, he just used it for the mystery of it) he concocted for a play/movie that would have (probably) "The Kid" compete with this new funky and mysterious artist called "Camille" who was beating him in the music game with the big reveal at the end being that "Camille" and "The Kid" were one and the same person ("Prince")...

WBR wanted to release the "Camille" album but wanted "Prince" to be referenced simply because "Prince" on an album sold more and needed less marketing than the unknown "Camille"...
Prince pulled the album and not WBR...
If WBR pulled the album it probably would have been because "Under The Cherry Moon" bombed and they didn't want to risk another flop with his "Camille" movie...

Neversin.

[Edited 8/8/20 9:24am]

Since the estate listed Cosmic Day as a Camille track is this then a lie/mis-information or correct from you perspective?

ofofoffjoff said:

Neversin said:

Why do you want The Estate to spread even more lies and misinformation??
And especially about topics Prince didn't even support and/or was even opposed to (Intersex, Trans)?
Remember that Prince was the guy that demanded Wendy and Lisa to publicly denounce their Homosexuality before he would let them produce music they helped him create in the 1980's...
Prince only used the Male/Female, Straight/Gay thing to shock, cause controversy and to let people notice him, you know, simple marketing tactics to make more money...
Plus, Prince; that guy who was vehemently against tattoos, blood tranfusions and other ways of "body altering" practices, you really think he would be pro Trans??

The "Camille" persona was just an act (not even a female act, he just used it for the mystery of it) he concocted for a play/movie that would have (probably) "The Kid" compete with this new funky and mysterious artist called "Camille" who was beating him in the music game with the big reveal at the end being that "Camille" and "The Kid" were one and the same person ("Prince")...

WBR wanted to release the "Camille" album but wanted "Prince" to be referenced simply because "Prince" on an album sold more and needed less marketing than the unknown "Camille"...
Prince pulled the album and not WBR...
If WBR pulled the album it probably would have been because "Under The Cherry Moon" bombed and they didn't want to risk another flop with his "Camille" movie...

Neversin.

[Edited 8/8/20 9:24am]

Since the estate listed Cosmic Day as a Camille track is this then a lie/mis-information or correct from you perspective?

Who cares?
It sounds like a "Camille" song (like the speeded up and guitar heavy, similar like "Cosmic Day" version of "Katrina's Paper Dolls" or even "Good Love"...) but it also sounds like "Crucial" and "Adonis And Bathsheba"... In the end these weren't songs for any "Camille" project for all we know...
Just class it under "Erotic City", "Love or $" and "Partyman"... In the end the song remains the same...

Neversin.

[Edited 8/8/20 9:44am]

Just returnd from vacation and just blasted it!!
My wife hates only the vocals but she loves the guitar.
I think this lives waaaaaayyy up to the 20+ years of hype, what a great song!
Love love LOVE it.

Neversin said:

ofofoffjoff said:

Since the estate listed Cosmic Day as a Camille track is this then a lie/mis-information or correct from you perspective?

Who cares?
It sounds like a "Camille" song (like the speeded up and guitar heavy, similar like "Cosmic Day" version of "Katrina's Paper Dolls" or even "Good Love"...)

[Edited 8/8/20 9:44am]

Is this the version you mentioned in these threads?

https://prince.org/msg/7/441233

https://prince.org/msg/7/...&pg=11

You said this version of Katrina's Paper Dolls was recorded in october or november 1986, did that version belong on some album with Cosmic Day or other 'Camille' like trracks that were recorded around that time?
Any reason you maybe know why they left that track of the SOTT SDE??

Neversin said:

ofofoffjoff said:

Since the estate listed Cosmic Day as a Camille track is this then a lie/mis-information or correct from you perspective?

Who cares?
It sounds like a "Camille" song (like the speeded up and guitar heavy, similar like "Cosmic Day" version of "Katrina's Paper Dolls" or even "Good Love"...) but it also sounds like "Crucial" and "Adonis And Bathsheba"... In the end these weren't songs for any "Camille" project for all we know...
Just class it under "Erotic City", "Love or $" and "Partyman"... In the end the song remains the same...

Neversin.

[Edited 8/8/20 9:44am]

A lot of people on here seem to care, but it is always great to get your perspective as you are one of the few that is privy to more information than most of us and kind enough to share it (i.e. speeded up version of Katerina's Paper Dolls – thanks for that )

•

Also, I wasn't trying to imply that Prince was somekind of Harvey Milk. I think there is a difference between what he stood for personally (noone will ever know, so all we can do is speculate) and the way his music affected people/his fans. For me personally, Prince's music has been extremely important in my development as a kid growing up in a so called liberal Netherlands and in many way it gave me the strength to liberate myself and stand up for being gay – and leave this cult he unfortunately later joined. I am sure it is the same for many. Whether he stood for the things he conveyed in his music and whether that really relfected in his interations with his band and real life and wether that later on changed (people do change perspectives through out life) – in those days with the music he did push for a more inclusive agenda – if that was just a marketing trick of his – I would then have to question the integrity of his creations, which I choose not to, as much as I choose/can't stand listen to Rainbow Children – doesn't mean I can't listen to the stuff he produced pre-JW. I guess that is just personal to me, but I also know it is important to many others. What he represented at the time (specifically in the beginning of his career) as an artist culturally did push for diversity.

•

I agree that in the end it doesn't matter, just enjoy the music, and I definetly do – but music also touches us on other I guess more visceral levels and as a fan I contemplate on his motivations for certain creative decisions/directions, like any other fan – especially when the unreleased surfaces. Might be wrong with some interpertations, happy to be correted if I am wrong – that is why we are all on this forum I believe – to share our perspectives and to agree or to disagree.

[Edited 8/8/20 11:11am]

ofofoffjoff said:

I am also not sure about it being a Camille track. I also think that the notion of a sped-up-vocals in a track by default making it a "Camille" track is a very simplistic way of looking at it. I think the Camille persona was a much more complex concept with a variety of outcomes – it was more of an attitude and his way of creatively totally abandoning his musical past of Prince & The Revolution in order to reinvent himself musically. Tracks like Dream Factory, Love or Money, Erotic City (all pre Camille) are definetly not Camille tracks. Scarlet Pussy was listed as a Camille track but was recorded with slowed-down vocals. So while most Camille tracks are with of course the sped-vocals it ain't the rule.

Scarlet Pussy was done like Erotic City, with multiple pitched voices - deep narrator voice, Camille voice, and it sounds like Sheila's vocals are treated the same, as her verse one sounds normal, and verse 2 sounds pitched. So technically this track does have the Camille voice, though he's kind of dueting with his deep voiced self, and Sheila.

SquirrelMeat said:

Ding Ding. There is a real danger than fans with less knowledge are labeling Camille songs as 'tracks with a speeded up voice'. That thought process is already all over you tube and twitter, and has been here for many years.

There was never a Camille 'voice'. There was high register (Good Love), mid register (Le Grind) and low register (scarlett Pussy/Bob George). For some reason, a section of Prince fans seem desperate to compartmentalise Camille as the speeded up tracks.

I'm confused by this. Good Love is the Camille voice, Le Grind his normal voice, and Bob George the deep pitched voice (Spooky Electric? Though he refers to himself as Camille during Bob George on the Lovesexy Live video, just to make it a little more confusing). The latter 2 aren't referred to as Camille or Camille-style tracks. The high pitched voice is the distinguishing factor of a Camille or Camille-style track, even if it was never credited to Camille.

le grind and bob george are not camille voice to me... and cosmic day definitely isn't

[Edited 8/8/20 13:12pm]

Honestly, this should not have been a single.

It took like 7 pages of discussion before talk that this wasn't meant to be a Prince song. Enjoy it for what it is, but we don't actually know what the hell it is other than a Prince oddity. People are really stretching to pretend we have any insight on Prince's intent here...and really that's just because they made it a single.


Cosmic Day isn't dependent on tape speed like with Camille. He's trying to sound female, like totally commited and you can't say that about Good Love. It's close to one of the backing voices he does in Rebirth of the Flesh that's separate from the main vocal so that vocal tone does appear there at least but it's not Camille and even though you can loosely group "Erotic City", "Love or $" and "Partyman" as one offs in a general style he played with or group Camille becaue he did it, and sequenced them and they have similarities.... we don't know what's up here. Again, it mostly matters because they made it a single.



If someone said "Yeah Prince had a moment after Camille where instead of writing hits for girl pop singers, he wanted to take them on himself and win best male and best female artist the same year, releasing records as a female" or some variation of that... it would make more sense. but it's a good bet this song has been misclassified.

(I personally don't get how this would rank as a favorite Prince track of all time given not just that it's a pop throwaway, but that he's altering his voice to sound the least Prince like possible... but eh, to each their own, none of the above discussion factors into how much someone can like the song, even if it turns out it should have been in the Originals collections or whatever. Love the Prince that you love!)

lavendardrummachine said:

Honestly, this should not have been a single.

It took like 7 pages of discussion before talk that this wasn't meant to be a Prince song. Enjoy it for what it is, but we don't actually know what the hell it is other than a Prince oddity. People are really stretching to pretend we have any insight on Prince's intent here...and really that's just because they made it a single.


Cosmic Day isn't dependent on tape speed like with Camille. He's trying to sound female, like totally commited and you can't say that about Good Love. It's close to one of the backing voices he does in Rebirth of the Flesh that's separate from the main vocal so that vocal tone does appear there at least but it's not Camille and even though you can loosely group "Erotic City", "Love or $" and "Partyman" as one offs in a general style he played with or group Camille becaue he did it, and sequenced them and they have similarities.... we don't know what's up here. Again, it mostly matters because they made it a single.



If someone said "Yeah Prince had a moment after Camille where instead of writing hits for girl pop singers, he wanted to take them on himself and win best male and best female artist the same year, releasing records as a female" or some variation of that... it would make more sense. but it's a good bet this song has been misclassified.

(I personally don't get how this would rank as a favorite Prince track of all time given not just that it's a pop throwaway, but that he's altering his voice to sound the least Prince like possible... but eh, to each their own, none of the above discussion factors into how much someone can like the song, even if it turns out it should have been in the Originals collections or whatever. Love the Prince that you love!)

to me personally, these really oddball, weird, total wtf? type of songs are what i love most from him.

it's so cool to have a few of these tracks that don't sound like anything else in his catalogue, which
is pretty much amazing in itself at this point, given that he's covered SO MUCH ground and done so
many different vocals.

i'm just in awe at how he manages to bend his vocals and harmonize all those layers of backin vox
to sound different so many times and in so many ways.

of course i can totally see why a lot of people will hate this track, but it also sort of, a little bit, does
surprise me that so many prince fans -like, people who manage to keep coming to this place -
are so outspoken and harsh about truly weird or experimental or just crazy stuff and go right past
'this is interesting, but i don't really like it. maybe in another year? just not for me i guess' and just
straight to 'this is trash, never listening to this again. no!'

SchlomoThaHomo said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Ding Ding. There is a real danger than fans with less knowledge are labeling Camille songs as 'tracks with a speeded up voice'. That thought process is already all over you tube and twitter, and has been here for many years.

There was never a Camille 'voice'. There was high register (Good Love), mid register (Le Grind) and low register (scarlett Pussy/Bob George). For some reason, a section of Prince fans seem desperate to compartmentalise Camille as the speeded up tracks.

I'm confused by this. Good Love is the Camille voice, Le Grind his normal voice, and Bob George the deep pitched voice (Spooky Electric? Though he refers to himself as Camille during Bob George on the Lovesexy Live video, just to make it a little more confusing). The latter 2 aren't referred to as Camille or Camille-style tracks. The high pitched voice is the distinguishing factor of a Camille or Camille-style track, even if it was never credited to Camille.

"Scarlet Pussy" uses the low register but is credited to Camille on the b-side of "I Wish U Heaven."

I can't wait to see the reaction to When The Dawn Of The Morning Comes and Walkin' In Glory. Both of those sound like complete outliers like Cosmic Day and HM Buff's description of Walkin' In Glory as "a gospel We March" sounds super interesting.

[Edited 8/8/20 20:03pm]

Strive said:

I can't wait to see the reaction to When The Dawn Of The Morning Comes and Walkin' In Glory. Both of those sound like complete outliers like Cosmic Day and HM Buff's description of Walkin' In Glory as "a gospel We March" sounds super interesting.

U can add BLANCHE .....a killer trax....not as it is described on Prince.Vault

Man, I hope there's better stuff on those 3 CD's than "Cosmic Day" because that's rather weak.

If that's the lead track then...well.

Not feeling that one at all.

RJOrion said:

IstenSzek said:

of course i can totally see why a lot of people will hate this track, but it also sort of, a little bit, does
surprise me that so many prince fans -like, people who manage to keep coming to this place -
are so outspoken and harsh about truly weird or experimental or just crazy stuff and go right past
'this is interesting, but i don't really like it. maybe in another year? just not for me i guess' and just
straight to 'this is trash, never listening to this again. no!'

IstenSzek said:

of course i can totally see why a lot of people will hate this track, but it also sort of, a little bit, does
surprise me that so many prince fans -like, people who manage to keep coming to this place -
are so outspoken and harsh about truly weird or experimental or just crazy stuff and go right past
'this is interesting, but i don't really like it. maybe in another year? just not for me i guess' and just
straight to 'this is trash, never listening to this again. no!'

It's really cool Prince had the ability to make weird music. But at the end of the day the musicality isn't what makes this one weird or interesting. None of those adjectives would apply if he gave it to The Bangles.

dannyd5050 said:

Strive said:

Blown away.....Never heard the whole song before. Love the guitar solo and organ. Definitely could have been a song on a movie soundtrack in the 80's....September can't come fast enough.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

Strive said:

I can't wait to see the reaction to When The Dawn Of The Morning Comes and Walkin' In Glory. Both of those sound like complete outliers like Cosmic Day and HM Buff's description of Walkin' In Glory as "a gospel We March" sounds super interesting.

HM Buff described The Divine this way, not Walkin’ In Glory.

You are right. Sorry about that.

First listen I wasn't really digging it.

Now on listen 50 or so I can't get enough of it!!!st

Also, when I play it through my stereo/receiver it sounds almost distorted with too much bass but listening to it on headphones I don't really notice that.

[Edited 8/8/20 20:28pm]