tmo1965 said:

TheVaultKeeper said:

blood fentanyl level = 67.8 milligrams!

liver fentanyl level - 435 milligrams!!

gastric fentanyl level = 14,000!!!

.

Let me tell ya

Some people wanna die

So they can be free

Controversy...

[Edited 5/29/17 18:54pm]

Do we have any doctors on here who can tell us if that is a reasonable gastric level of fentanyl for someone who od'ed? I can understand an elevated about being in his system, but these amounts seem extraordinarly high. It makes me wonder if this was intentional on P's part.

.

They were "illegal" Fentanyl and Prince probably didn't know what was in them! He probably thought he was just taking a mild pain pill (Vicodin), and didn't know it was laced with the deadly drug.

.

Was Prince so out of his freaking mind and took that much Fentanyl on-purpose?

.

I beg to differ.

cloveringold85 said:

Telecaster5 said:

I don´t like to write on this kind of boards because we are mostly speculating and exchange of opinions quickly turn into discussions, but I´d really like to know one thing: with such high levels on his body, would he have time (or be able to) to put his clothes (if the backward cloth thing is real) and get into the elevator for help? Is there is any doctor here who could clarify that ?

.

I am not a doctor, but we've been discussing this quite a bit here. I also have a hard time believing that with the lethal amount of Fentanyl that Prince had in his system, he could not have possibly been able to walk to the elevator. I just do not believe that is possible, unless he walked into the elevator, then took the lethal dose--which really doesn't make sense either, because why would he do something like that, and especially in an elevator?

.

The clothes on backwards -- another big mystery.

We don't know how long it takes fentanyl to work once you have ingested it. Maybe it takes 5 - 10 minutes or more, so he could have taken the meds and after few minutes knew something was wrong, put his clothes back on in hurry to get help. But the high levels in his system are really bothering me after thinking about it for a bit.

cloveringold85 said:

tmo1965 said:

Do we have any doctors on here who can tell us if that is a reasonable gastric level of fentanyl for someone who od'ed? I can understand an elevated about being in his system, but these amounts seem extraordinarly high. It makes me wonder if this was intentional on P's part.

.

They were "illegal" Fentanyl and Prince probably didn't know what was in them! He probably thought he was just taking a mild pain pill (Vicodin), and didn't know it was laced with the deadly drug.

.

Was Prince so out of his freaking mind and took that much Fentanyl on-purpose?

.

I beg to differ.

I understand that he thought he was taking Vicodin and that they were illegal street drugs and mixed with fentanyl. My point is, given the really high amounts in his system, was he trying to do himself in with what he thought was Vicodin. To someone who does not have a medical background and who does not know how quickly fentanyl processes out of your system, these amounts are troublesome even in an OD situation.

tmo1965 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

I am not a doctor, but we've been discussing this quite a bit here. I also have a hard time believing that with the lethal amount of Fentanyl that Prince had in his system, he could not have possibly been able to walk to the elevator. I just do not believe that is possible, unless he walked into the elevator, then took the lethal dose--which really doesn't make sense either, because why would he do something like that, and especially in an elevator?

.

The clothes on backwards -- another big mystery.

We don't know how long it takes fentanyl to work once you have ingested it. Maybe it takes 5 - 10 minutes or more, so he could have taken the meds and after few minutes knew something was wrong, put his clothes back on in hurry to get help. But the high levels in his system are really bothering me after thinking about it for a bit.

.

Yes, that is something I need to do some research on. I don't know how long it takes for the drug to take effect.

tmo1965 said:

One thing we do know is the Carver County sheriff (Chanhassen doesn't have it's own police department) who held a press conference right after Prince passed ruled out suicide. Obviously they had enough information to make that declaration.

Fentanyl is given in 100mg dosage and up. Now, we have no idea how many mg. Prince took. From what I read, you get relief within 30 minutes, however, you must wait at least 4-hours to take another tablet.

.

https://www.drugs.com/pro...blets.html

.

Dosing

1. Initial Dose

1. For opioid-tolerant patients not being converted from Actiq®‡, the initial dose of Fentanyl Buccal Tablets is always 100 mcg.

2. For patients being converted from Actiq®‡, prescribers must use the Initial Dosing Recommendations table below (Table 7). The doses of Fentanyl Buccal Tablets in this table are starting doses and not intended to represent equianalgesic doses to Actiq®‡. Patients must be instructed to stop the use of Actiq®‡ and dispose of any remaining units.

   Table 7. Initial Dosing Recommendations for Patients on Actiq®‡

   Current Actiq®‡ Dose (mcg)	Initial Fentanyl Buccal Tablets Dose (mcg)
   200	100 mcg tablet
   400	100 mcg tablet
   600	200 mcg tablet
   800	200 mcg tablet
   1200	2 x 200 mcg tablets
   1600	2 x 200 mcg tablets

rogifan said:

tmo1965 said:

I understand that he thought he was taking Vicodin and that they were illegal street drugs and mixed with fentanyl. My point is, given the really high amounts in his system, was he trying to do himself in with what he thought was Vicodin. To someone who does not have a medical background and who does not know how quickly fentanyl processes out of your system, these amounts are troublesome even in an OD situation.

One thing we do know is the Carver County sheriff (Chanhassen doesn't have it's own police department) who held a press conference right after Prince passed ruled out suicide. Obviously they had enough information to make that declaration.

.

I wonder how they came to that conclusion? Was it because no suicide note was found?

cloveringold85 said:

rogifan said:

tmo1965 said: One thing we do know is the Carver County sheriff (Chanhassen doesn't have it's own police department) who held a press conference right after Prince passed ruled out suicide. Obviously they had enough information to make that declaration.

.

I wonder how they came to that conclusion? Was it because no suicide note was found?

At the time that the sheriff held that press conference, the toxicology tests probably had not even been taken, let alone having the results. Not all suicide victims leave a note. Many do not even show any signs that they may want to kill themselves.

cloveringold85 said:

Fentanyl is given in 100mg dosage and up. Now, we have no idea how many mg. Prince took. From what I read, you get relief within 30 minutes, however, you must wait at least 4-hours to take another tablet.

.

https://www.drugs.com/pro...blets.html

.

Dosing

1. Initial Dose

1. For opioid-tolerant patients not being converted from Actiq®‡, the initial dose of Fentanyl Buccal Tablets is always 100 mcg.

2. For patients being converted from Actiq®‡, prescribers must use the Initial Dosing Recommendations table below (Table 7). The doses of Fentanyl Buccal Tablets in this table are starting doses and not intended to represent equianalgesic doses to Actiq®‡. Patients must be instructed to stop the use of Actiq®‡ and dispose of any remaining units.

   Table 7. Initial Dosing Recommendations for Patients on Actiq®‡

   Current Actiq®‡ Dose (mcg)	Initial Fentanyl Buccal Tablets Dose (mcg)
   200	100 mcg tablet
   400	100 mcg tablet
   600	200 mcg tablet
   800	200 mcg tablet
   1200	2 x 200 mcg tablets
   1600	2 x 200 mcg tablets

Minor correction: The dosages are in micrograms, not miligrams.

cloveringold85 said:

I don't know but I doubt they would say that if they weren't fairly confident about it.

tmo1965 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

I wonder how they came to that conclusion? Was it because no suicide note was found?

At the time that the sheriff held that press conference, the toxicology tests probably had not even been taken, let alone having the results. Not all suicide victims leave a note. Many do not even show any signs that they may want to kill themselves.

.

I remember the media spinning the story of a "suicide note", which was fake news.

.

The ME stated accidential overdose, based on their findings, so I guess they ruled-out suicide.

.

I still have my doubts about the information that has been presented.

tmo1965 said:

cloveringold85 said:

Fentanyl is given in 100mg dosage and up. Now, we have no idea how many mg. Prince took. From what I read, you get relief within 30 minutes, however, you must wait at least 4-hours to take another tablet.

.

https://www.drugs.com/pro...blets.html

.

Dosing

1. Initial Dose

1. For opioid-tolerant patients not being converted from Actiq®‡, the initial dose of Fentanyl Buccal Tablets is always 100 mcg.

2. For patients being converted from Actiq®‡, prescribers must use the Initial Dosing Recommendations table below (Table 7). The doses of Fentanyl Buccal Tablets in this table are starting doses and not intended to represent equianalgesic doses to Actiq®‡. Patients must be instructed to stop the use of Actiq®‡ and dispose of any remaining units.

   Table 7. Initial Dosing Recommendations for Patients on Actiq®‡

   Current Actiq®‡ Dose (mcg)	Initial Fentanyl Buccal Tablets Dose (mcg)
   200	100 mcg tablet
   400	100 mcg tablet
   600	200 mcg tablet
   800	200 mcg tablet
   1200	2 x 200 mcg tablets
   1600	2 x 200 mcg tablets

Minor correction: The dosages are in micrograms, not miligrams.

.

Whoops!! MCG.........not MG.........THANKS!!

cloveringold85 said:

He did Clover....I have lived with chronic pain for 10 years. I've been in prescription pain meds for years. I was at a point where my meds had once again stopped working and I was taking more and more each day to make it thru and afraid to tell my doctor. I was already at a high dose and BC of the stigma attached and shame I feel for having to live taking meds I was hiding it and didn't wanna increase my meds. I was running out at month end of my meds and it was horrific. His death hit me like a brick wall and made me go to my Dr and tell him. Now we have finally found doses that work. I'm not taking anymore than I should an my quality of life has greatly improved? I'll forever owe that to Prince.

Mkilpatrick74 said:

This is so great to hear. I hope I live to see a day where chronic pain can be managed without the use of strong drugs like opioids.

rogifan said:

You and I Both!!! I would give anything to have an alternative to control my pain.

Mkilpatrick74 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

All we know is that Prince was dropped off around 8PM on April 20th, 2016, and we suspect it was KJ, but there were stories that he went out of town (Switzerland), but he could have still been in Chanhassen on the 20th.

.

Prince saved your life? I'm glad to hear that and hope you are doing well. Yes, it still hurts and we all miss him, terribly.

He did Clover....I have lived with chronic pain for 10 years. I've been in prescription pain meds for years. I was at a point where my meds had once again stopped working and I was taking more and more each day to make it thru and afraid to tell my doctor. I was already at a high dose and BC of the stigma attached and shame I feel for having to live taking meds I was hiding it and didn't wanna increase my meds. I was running out at month end of my meds and it was horrific. His death hit me like a brick wall and made me go to my Dr and tell him. Now we have finally found doses that work. I'm not taking anymore than I should an my quality of life has greatly improved? I'll forever owe that to Prince.

.

I am very pleased to hear you are doing much better and are able to manage your pain. Sounds like you have a very caring doctor. I only wish someone was able to save Prince.

.

No one should have to suffer with chronic pain.

cloveringold85 said:

Thank u so much. I truly know how he had to be feeling. And it's a very lonely and terrifying place to be. People look down at us for having to take these meds and automatically assume we are strung out and taking them to get high or for kicks. Mot hardly!!! I am just the average single mom who does all she can to hide the fact I take the meds from others around me so I can only imagine the fear he felt if it got out that he was in pain and taking prescription pain meds. The press would have eaten him alive and that is what ultimately killed him I feel....it hurts so so badly and I wish someone who understood a little of what he was going thru could have helped him.

Mkilpatrick74 said:

I don't want to ever have my child find me gone having overdosed on my pain meds. I don't want her to hurt like we all do over Prince. So I am forever grateful that I was able to get it under control.

Mkilpatrick74 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

I am very pleased to hear you are doing much better and are able to manage your pain. Sounds like you have a very caring doctor. I only wish someone was able to save Prince.

.

No one should have to suffer with chronic pain.

Thank u so much. I truly know how he had to be feeling. And it's a very lonely and terrifying place to be. People look down at us for having to take these meds and automatically assume we are strung out and taking them to get high or for kicks. Mot hardly!!! I am just the average single mom who does all she can to hide the fact I take the meds from others around me so I can only imagine the fear he felt if it got out that he was in pain and taking prescription pain meds. The press would have eaten him alive and that is what ultimately killed him I feel....it hurts so so badly and I wish someone who understood a little of what he was going thru could have helped him.

.

I've experienced pain before, but not on the level that Prince was. I'm talking about "feminine" pains, and the ocassional back pain and/or headaches, but again, nothing on the level of pain that Prince was going through, my God. No one should suffer like that, but there is help and good treatment out there. Fortunately for you, you found it -- but many do not.

.

[Edited 5/31/17 14:18pm]

Mkilpatrick74 said:

Mkilpatrick74 said:

Thank u so much. I truly know how he had to be feeling. And it's a very lonely and terrifying place to be. People look down at us for having to take these meds and automatically assume we are strung out and taking them to get high or for kicks. Mot hardly!!! I am just the average single mom who does all she can to hide the fact I take the meds from others around me so I can only imagine the fear he felt if it got out that he was in pain and taking prescription pain meds. The press would have eaten him alive and that is what ultimately killed him I feel....it hurts so so badly and I wish someone who understood a little of what he was going thru could have helped him.

I don't want to ever have my child find me gone having overdosed on my pain meds. I don't want her to hurt like we all do over Prince. So I am forever grateful that I was able to get it under control.

.

If you ever feel you losing the battle with your pain, pick up the phone and call for help. Don't ever get to the point where you want to take more pills to ease the pain. I'm not saying you would do that, because you seem to have a good head on your shoulder and you have a child to look after. You were strong enough and smart enough to seek the help that you needed, so I commend you for that!

cloveringold85 said:

Thank u for that. I promise you if I ever get to that point I will call for help. It's a scary place to be and I'm telling you all reasonable thoughts go out the window when you are in withdrawals or in so much pain nothing is working. Had i not had my mom and dad around, I may have lost my life just like Prince. But thank God I got the help I needed and I know now not to he afraid to ask for help. The alternative just isn't worth it.

Mkilpatrick74 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

If you ever feel you losing the battle with your pain, pick up the phone and call for help. Don't ever get to the point where you want to take more pills to ease the pain. I'm not saying you would do that, because you seem to have a good head on your shoulder and you have a child to look after. You were strong enough and smart enough to seek the help that you needed, so I commend you for that!

Thank u for that. I promise you if I ever get to that point I will call for help. It's a scary place to be and I'm telling you all reasonable thoughts go out the window when you are in withdrawals or in so much pain nothing is working. Had i not had my mom and dad around, I may have lost my life just like Prince. But thank God I got the help I needed and I know now not to he afraid to ask for help. The alternative just isn't worth it.

.

You are fortunate to have your Mom and Dad around. I understand when you are in pain, you just want the pain to cease, but you have the wisdom to know to pick up the phone and get help. Think of those who love you and depend on you.

tmo1965 said:

I asked one of the doctors i work with and he said he is not a pathologist so it would be hard for him to answer your specific question. But it did not sound unreasonable to him especially taking some extenuating circumstances into consideration. Perhaps Prince was accostomed to taking 3 or 4 pills at a time. On top of that all of them could have been laced with fentanyl. And how much fentanyl? All these factors make the report plausible.

tmo1965 said:

TheVaultKeeper said:

blood fentanyl level = 67.8 milligrams!

liver fentanyl level - 435 milligrams!!

gastric fentanyl level = 14,000!!!

.

Let me tell ya

Some people wanna die

So they can be free

Controversy...

[Edited 5/29/17 18:54pm]

Do we have any doctors on here who can tell us if that is a reasonable gastric level of fentanyl for someone who od'ed? I can understand an elevated about being in his system, but these amounts seem extraordinarly high. It makes me wonder if this was intentional on P's part.

According to the information in the article:

.

blood fentanyl level = 67.8 milligrams (3 is considered fatal by experts)

liver fentanyl level - 435 milligrams (Anything above 69 is toxic, according to investigators)

gastric fentanyl level = 14,000 (an extraordinarily high amount according to sources)

.

Let me tell ya

Some people wanna die

So they can be free

Controversy...

I posted this in another thread awhile back, but it seems important enough to share again. The article includes groundbreaking information about the use of opiates to treat pain. I actually feel very sorry for those people who have been sentenced to a lifetime of addiction due to having their "chronic pain" treated with this class of drugs.

The more information that comes out every day about opiates seems like all bad news. Perhaps those who don't live here aren't aware of how much effort is going into the opiate epidemic, but in MN its in the news one way or another almost weekly. I'm sure Prince's high profile has something to do with it and that gives me a tiny bit of comfort knowing his unnecessary and untimely death may not be entirely in vain. Also MN has a well-known reputation for having some of the best healthcare available in the world as well as state-of-the-art, progressive research programs thanks in large parts to the U of MN and The Mayo Clinic. So that probably has something to do with the amount of coverage this issue receives here.

m.startribune.com/minneapolis-va-study-challenges-wide-use-of-opioids/421327343/

This is an article from 2015.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/ca...-1.3200562

.

While it would be "impossible" to know how potent the drug is, he said he certainly knows when there's fentanyl in the product he's using, because it has a different smell and texture.

Dr. Weiss disputed any recreational user's ability to detect potency.

"It's playing Russian roulette because you never really know what you're getting and you can't tell how much you're getting from the way it looks," he said.

.

"Different tablets contain different amounts of fentanyl and the person making the tablets has no idea," the doctor added. "If a fentanyl tablet, for example, is supposed to contain 1 mg, it can easily contain 2 mg and that can be the difference between life and death."

.

[Edited 5/31/17 16:16pm]

TheVaultKeeper said:

tmo1965 said:

Do we have any doctors on here who can tell us if that is a reasonable gastric level of fentanyl for someone who od'ed? I can understand an elevated about being in his system, but these amounts seem extraordinarly high. It makes me wonder if this was intentional on P's part.

According to the information in the article:

.

blood fentanyl level = 67.8 milligrams (3 is considered fatal by experts)

liver fentanyl level - 435 milligrams (Anything above 69 is toxic, according to investigators)

gastric fentanyl level = 14,000 (an extraordinarily high amount according to sources)

.

Let me tell ya

Some people wanna die

So they can be free

Controversy...

I love it when somebody takes one bit of info and tries to play ISpy with it. Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

TheVaultKeeper said:

Like i said in my reply its not unreasonable when you consider the extenuating circumstances.

cloveringold85 said:

Thank you! I don't understand why its so hard for some people to understand this part.
[Edited 5/31/17 16:23pm]

cloveringold85 said:

TheVaultKeeper said:

blood fentanyl level = 67.8 milligrams!

liver fentanyl level - 435 milligrams!!

gastric fentanyl level = 14,000!!!

.

Let me tell ya

Some people wanna die

So they can be free

Controversy...

[Edited 5/29/17 18:54pm]

.

So, it is your belief that Prince wanted out? You think he had enough and was ready to go in an elevator, and clothes on backwards? You think with that much Fentanyl in his body, he had the strength to walk to the elevator on his own?

I think those extremely high amounts just seem a little too hard to reach by accident. That's all I'm sayin'. Do I think it was murder? I don't know. Do I think it was suicide? I don't know. Do I think it was an accidental overdose? I have my doubts. Do I think that Kirk Johnson was involved somehow? Yes, I do.