What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe? Close scrutiny of their doctrinal position on such subjects as the deity of Christ, salvation, the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, and the atonement shows beyond a doubt that they do not hold to orthodox Christian positions on these subjects. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus is Michael the archangel, the highest created being. This contradicts many Scriptures which clearly declare Jesus to be God (John 1:1,14, 8:58, 10:30). Jehovah’s Witnesses believe salvation is obtained by a combination of faith, good works, and obedience. This contradicts countless scriptures which declare salvation to be received by grace through faith (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the Trinity, believing Jesus to be a created being and the Holy Spirit to essentially be the inanimate power of God. Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the concept of Christ’s substitutionary atonement and instead hold to a ransom theory, that Jesus’ death was a ransom payment for Adam’s sin.

I don't think Larry FORCED him into anything. But it's unfortunate Prince took to JW like he did. Blame organized religion instead.

Larry seemed to make Prince a happier person. The influence Larry appeared to have on Prince's writing was detrimental to what was released post-Larry/JW.

.

But who cares. Prince seemed to be a happier person, and that's all that matters at the end of the day.

.

Not any of the speculation bullshit you see otherwise since his death.

Prince made his own choices quite freely. I think he equated losing his children to past sins and hence his conversion and subsequent 'cleaning up' in his lyrics and approach.

Prince was a genius in how he used spirituality as sexuality pre-JW....his lyrics and juxtaposition of music imagery and presentation were from living BETWEEN the lines and living outside the box of definitions our society likes to lock us down with.

Post JW he created from inside that box, with all its ceilings, walls and restrictions and guilt, lots and lots of guilt. But that danger - that religio-sexuality as a mainstay creative jumpoff was muted. It wasnt ALL gone - but he filtered himself.

He lost his way for awhile, but the rainbow children is the masterwork of that focus and love he had for the process he went through.

For someone who was blessed with so much, to lose his children and be denied a family - well he had to rationalize it somehow, someway right? Larry was an important father figure and I dont blame Larry - Prince made his own decisions - Prince thought he had the world figured out, and then he didnt.

We all go through psychic pain as we go through life. In that way Prince was very very human.

What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe? Close scrutiny welcome..

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201008/what-do-jehovahs-witnesses-believe/

nursev said:

terrig said:

Prince made his own choices quite freely. I think he equated losing his children to past sins and hence his conversion and subsequent 'cleaning up' in his lyrics and approach.

Prince was a genius in how he used spirituality as sexuality pre-JW....his lyrics and juxtaposition of music imagery and presentation were from living BETWEEN the lines and living outside the box of definitions our society likes to lock us down with.

Post JW he created from inside that box, with all its ceilings, walls and restrictions and guilt, lots and lots of guilt. But that danger - that religio-sexuality as a mainstay creative jumpoff was muted. It wasnt ALL gone - but he filtered himself.

He lost his way for awhile, but the rainbow children is the masterwork of that focus and love he had for the process he went through.

For someone who was blessed with so much, to lose his children and be denied a family - well he had to rationalize it somehow, someway right? Larry was an important father figure and I dont blame Larry - Prince made his own decisions - Prince thought he had the world figured out, and then he didnt.

We all go through psychic pain as we go through life. In that way Prince was very very human.

The only thing that's a head scratcher for me is people's unrealistic expectations. He was seldom treated as a human here.

It's not only the JW thing but anytime Prince makes any choice or voices any idea that doesn't comport with their fantasy/illusion/delusion of him, the fangs come out and a crisis ensues.

It's like he's expected to be some ambiguous blank slate for everybody to protect their idea of who they think he is and not allowed to define himself, for himself.

I'm not sure he's the one with the pathology.

Astasheiks said:

What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe? Close scrutiny of their doctrinal position on such subjects as the deity of Christ, salvation, the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, and the atonement shows beyond a doubt that they do not hold to orthodox Christian positions on these subjects. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus is Michael the archangel, the highest created being. This contradicts many Scriptures which clearly declare Jesus to be God (John 1:1,14, 8:58, 10:30). Jehovah’s Witnesses believe salvation is obtained by a combination of faith, good works, and obedience. This contradicts countless scriptures which declare salvation to be received by grace through faith (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the Trinity, believing Jesus to be a created being and the Holy Spirit to essentially be the inanimate power of God. Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the concept of Christ’s substitutionary atonement and instead hold to a ransom theory, that Jesus’ death was a ransom payment for Adam’s sin.

Log off.

jdcxc said:

nursev said:

agreed 100%

Have you actually read his lyrics post-JW conversion? Hell, Rainbow Children's "Mellow" is one of his most explicit songs ever. Oral sex, masturbation and a very wet partner make up Prince's religious utopia.

Exactly!

The sexiest, most creative and compelling Witness who ever lived. If only folks would quit whining and listen they would realize that he was still as Princey as ever.

Yup. And the biggest offenders are all boo-hooing the loudest now.

babynoz said:

the only thing that's a head scratcher for me is people's unrealistic expectations. He was seldom treated as a human here.

babynoz said:

terrig said:

Prince made his own choices quite freely. I think he equated losing his children to past sins and hence his conversion and subsequent 'cleaning up' in his lyrics and approach.

Prince was a genius in how he used spirituality as sexuality pre-JW....his lyrics and juxtaposition of music imagery and presentation were from living BETWEEN the lines and living outside the box of definitions our society likes to lock us down with.

Post JW he created from inside that box, with all its ceilings, walls and restrictions and guilt, lots and lots of guilt. But that danger - that religio-sexuality as a mainstay creative jumpoff was muted. It wasnt ALL gone - but he filtered himself.

He lost his way for awhile, but the rainbow children is the masterwork of that focus and love he had for the process he went through.

For someone who was blessed with so much, to lose his children and be denied a family - well he had to rationalize it somehow, someway right? Larry was an important father figure and I dont blame Larry - Prince made his own decisions - Prince thought he had the world figured out, and then he didnt.

We all go through psychic pain as we go through life. In that way Prince was very very human.

The only thing that's a head scratcher for me is people's unrealistic expectations. He was seldom treated as a human here.

It's not only the JW thing but anytime Prince makes any choice or voices any idea that doesn't comport with their fantasy/illusion/delusion of him, the fangs come out and a crisis ensues.

It's like he's expected to be some ambiguous blank slate for everybody to protect their idea of who they think he is and not allowed to define himself, for himself.

I'm not sure he's the one with the pathology.

Remarkably true. It's certainly not been very respectful of him - despite the claims of being such genuine fans..

babynoz said:

terrig said:

Prince made his own choices quite freely. I think he equated losing his children to past sins and hence his conversion and subsequent 'cleaning up' in his lyrics and approach.

Prince was a genius in how he used spirituality as sexuality pre-JW....his lyrics and juxtaposition of music imagery and presentation were from living BETWEEN the lines and living outside the box of definitions our society likes to lock us down with.

Post JW he created from inside that box, with all its ceilings, walls and restrictions and guilt, lots and lots of guilt. But that danger - that religio-sexuality as a mainstay creative jumpoff was muted. It wasnt ALL gone - but he filtered himself.

He lost his way for awhile, but the rainbow children is the masterwork of that focus and love he had for the process he went through.

For someone who was blessed with so much, to lose his children and be denied a family - well he had to rationalize it somehow, someway right? Larry was an important father figure and I dont blame Larry - Prince made his own decisions - Prince thought he had the world figured out, and then he didnt.

We all go through psychic pain as we go through life. In that way Prince was very very human.

The only thing that's a head scratcher for me is people's unrealistic expectations. He was seldom treated as a human here.

It's not only the JW thing but anytime Prince makes any choice or voices any idea that doesn't comport with their fantasy/illusion/delusion of him, the fangs come out and a crisis ensues.

It's like he's expected to be some ambiguous blank slate for everybody to protect their idea of who they think he is and not allowed to define himself, for himself.

I'm not sure he's the one with the pathology.

So so true! And like someone just posted downthread - the dirty Prince was still in there - he just learned to code it even further ....he became even smarter within the box.

I'll bet almost NO ONE understands what it takes to be percieved as superhuman 24/7 - Prince very much created his myth, lived it, expected others to live it and no one could, and understood what he was doing while doing it.

His conversion while probably emotionally necessary for him at the time also gave him another fountain to drink from to extend his creative force - and fwiw Prince human being was very fast and loose with rules when they were to be applied to him, while he wasn't so generous in allowing others leeway if his expectations weren't met without fail.

The more human Prince was - the more opposing behaviour - the bigger the superhuman myth. The JW in hindsight saved him in more ways than just spiritually.

terrig said:

babynoz said:

The only thing that's a head scratcher for me is people's unrealistic expectations. He was seldom treated as a human here.

It's not only the JW thing but anytime Prince makes any choice or voices any idea that doesn't comport with their fantasy/illusion/delusion of him, the fangs come out and a crisis ensues.

It's like he's expected to be some ambiguous blank slate for everybody to protect their idea of who they think he is and not allowed to define himself, for himself.

I'm not sure he's the one with the pathology.

So so true! And like someone just posted downthread - the dirty Prince was still in there - he just learned to code it even further ....he became even smarter within the box.

I'll bet almost NO ONE understands what it takes to be percieved as superhuman 24/7 - Prince very much created his myth, lived it, expected others to live it and no one could, and understood what he was doing while doing it.

His conversion while probably emotionally necessary for him at the time also gave him another fountain to drink from to extend his creative force - and fwiw Prince human being was very fast and loose with rules when they were to be applied to him, while he wasn't so generous in allowing others leeway if his expectations weren't met without fail.

The more human Prince was - the more opposing behaviour - the bigger the superhuman myth. The JW in hindsight saved him in more ways than just spiritually.

You nailed it.

It's weird because the very things that cause so much garment-rending, weeping and knashing of teeth are the things that intrigue me a great deal. Who else would be capable of extending his creative energies in that manner? The man was fascinating!

Also, the bolded is an important observation. He very much knew what HE needed regardless of those on the outside looking in.

Uhope said:

babynoz said:

The only thing that's a head scratcher for me is people's unrealistic expectations. He was seldom treated as a human here.

It's not only the JW thing but anytime Prince makes any choice or voices any idea that doesn't comport with their fantasy/illusion/delusion of him, the fangs come out and a crisis ensues.

It's like he's expected to be some ambiguous blank slate for everybody to protect their idea of who they think he is and not allowed to define himself, for himself.

I'm not sure he's the one with the pathology.

Remarkably true. It's certainly not been very respectful of him - despite the claims of being such genuine fans..

I find it odd.

Rather than look at the loss of sexually explicit lyrics and sexualized concert performances after Prince's conversion to the Jehovah Witnesses as a negative, it may have forced Prince to think of songwriting involving sex in more creative terms that allowed sexuality to be in his music but much more subtle and nuanced. Prince really found a bond through a spiritual faith in Larry Graham and they always seemed like the best of friends. I can only empathasize for Larry, Tina and Latia. Prince thought the world of Larry and treated Larry's family like his own. "Baby Brutha" will be missed.

Uhope said:

jdcxc said:

nursev said:

agreed 100%

Have you actually read his lyrics post-JW conversion? Hell, Rainbow Children's "Mellow" is one of his most explicit songs ever. Oral sex, masturbation and a very wet partner make up Prince's religious utopia.

I am hoping he and Denise (Vanity) are enjoying utopia together

Genesia said:

Y'know...maybe all Larry said to Prince was, "You don't have to be that anymore if you don't want to. It's okay to let go of the past - with all its pain - and be who you are now. If people want something else from you, that's their issue."

This. I may look at Larry and think, "Nope, bye Felicia." I've never met him, nor do I have any interest in doing so -- but hell, even I can admit I might be wrong about the guy. I admit I don't like him because of his voice, and the way he talks, the few times I've heard him talk. That's not exactly a lot to go on, since I've only actually heard him speak once, on Larry King's show. However, this doesn't mean Larry did anything malicious to Prince at all. Prince was always capable of thinking for himself -- listen to the man talk for two minutes and you know that boy was highly intelligent. Why blame Larry for Prince's issues?

C'mon, guys, can we all just agree to stop bashing every single person in Prince's life? It's just... c'mon, we're better than this. Aren't we?

Bunsterdk said:

Uhope said:

Remarkably true. It's certainly not been very respectful of him - despite the claims of being such genuine fans..

It seems as if some are really only in love with their own vision of Prince, and someone gonna pay if he doesn't live up to their fantasy. But he was a man, a human being, and he made choices that baffled and angered those who did not and still do not acknowledge the actual man behind the public persona. The very fact that he was able to stand up for his new-found beliefs the way he did shows enormous courage and willpower. I visited the org back in those days and was shocked at the disrespect and anger found here. True fans would not have reacted with such hatred against what this man stood for and would definitely not be dissing his best friends like this. He has made wonderful music since and was obviously much happier after becoming a jw. It's so plain to see in his eyes that he found a peace that was lacking before. Instead of being happy for him, people are moaning that he doesn't sing as openly about sex anymore. Well, if you can't feel the sexy groove in his music the past fifteen years, then I'm genuinely worried about you. LOL If you care anything about Prince as a person you would be happy for him. And respect his choice of friends instead of assuming that you can see what's behind their relationship without knowing either of them personally. /Rant over

Also, this. Oh, man, so much this. Young Prince was sexy in the overt way all young men are sexy. Older Prince, though? There's something inherently gorgeous about a man who doesn't have to put it all out there.Eventually you gotta stop being a sex kitten and grow the hell up. I'm glad Prince did that.

Why do some fans hate on Larry? He was the nicest person I have ever met at the Celebration at Paisley Park in June 2001.

Imagine meeting someone you looked up to as a musical influence and that person turned out to be nice, gracious and genuine.

That is why Prince Cherished his friendship with Larry.

I am grateful Prince found a Ladder (JW religion) and Friend (father figure) that was comforting to him.

Especially after so much sadness. I feel so bad Prince missed out on fatherhood.

I like to imagine now that he is a father and that is why he left the music world so soon.

Or to get out before he is the next tabloid victom.

But its hard to keep dreaming that way. It's denial, but its the only thing from keeping me from jumping off a bridge.

[Edited 6/28/16 16:05pm]

[Edited 6/28/16 16:06pm]

[Edited 6/28/16 16:09pm]

panpac777 said:

Why do some fans hate on Larry? He was the nicest person I have ever met at the Celebration at Paisley Park in June 2001.

Imagine meeting someone you looked up to as a musical influence and that person turned out to be nice, gracious and genuine.

That is why Prince Cherished his friendship with Larry.

I am grateful Prince found a Ladder (JW religion) and Friend (father figure) that was comforting to him.

Especially after so much sadness. I feel so bad Prince missed out on fatherhood.

I like to imagine now that he is a father and that is why he left the music world so soon.

Or to get out before he is the next tabloid victim.

But its hard to keep dreaming that way. It's denial, but its the only thing from keeping me from jumping off a bridge.

Did anyone else catch that both Dave Chappelle and Questlove when speeking at the Billboard and BET Awards said "when Prince Left the Music World" instead of left this world? Things that make u go hmmm???

[Edited 6/28/16 16:05pm]

[Edited 6/28/16 16:06pm]

[Edited 6/28/16 16:09pm]

[Edited 6/28/16 16:13pm]

Blakbear said:

Junglehop said:

I can't help it, my gut tells me Larry Graham wasn't a positive influence on Prince's life. I feel he exploited vulnerabilities in Prince, and acting as a defacto father figure of sorts, he manipulated and smothered him, ultimately robbing Prince of his own personal power. I can't help feeling Larry led Prince down a path toward self destruction. Ultimately Prince was responsible for his own life but Larry poisoned the well so to speak. [Edited 5/16/16 3:33am]

You Got that Right!!!

larry is a good man. i remember back in the day i resented the whole 'towel waving' thing onstage and worried about JW prohibitions on prince seeking medical treatment for his hip (that was just a rumor back in the day). to the extent that larry persuaded prince to destroy old masters of naughtier songs, i regret that. but, when i met him in person larry was nice to me. prince did what he wanted and that was that. i think larry was a good friend but even he couldn't have made prince do anything prince didn't want to do..

Astasheiks said:

Junglehop said:

I can't help it, my gut tells me Larry Graham wasn't a positive influence on Prince's life. I feel he exploited vulnerabilities in Prince, and acting as a defacto father figure of sorts, he manipulated and smothered him, ultimately robbing Prince of his own personal power. I can't help feeling Larry led Prince down a path toward self destruction. Ultimately Prince was responsible for his own life but Larry poisoned the well so to speak. [Edited 5/16/16 3:33am]

I'm with you Junglehop, my gut tells me if P could come back he would whoop Larry's arse!

I'm right there with you guys! What is it about him that gives me the creeps? Nice face, lovely smile but I get creeped out by the man every time, always have.

Can someone be so nice and SO spiritually evolved that it becomes suspect? I don't know but I'm just going to follow my intuition, it has never done me wrong, and walk the other way when I see him coming.

All I know is that Larry gave Prince the most heartfelt musical tribute you could ever wish to see at the London Autism Rocks shows. There was no doubting the man's complete and utter sincerity for me.

I'm gonna keep it about the music & say I didn't want to see Larry perform with P back in the day, & I sure as FUCK don't want to see/hear him singing P's songs NOW The only thing I ever need to hear him do is hit that pedal on "Joy in Rep" from the ONA Live aftershow. THAT'S IT

Bunsterdk said:

Uhope said:

Remarkably true. It's certainly not been very respectful of him - despite the claims of being such genuine fans..

It seems as if some are really only in love with their own vision of Prince, and someone gonna pay if he doesn't live up to their fantasy. But he was a man, a human being, and he made choices that baffled and angered those who did not and still do not acknowledge the actual man behind the public persona. The very fact that he was able to stand up for his new-found beliefs the way he did shows enormous courage and willpower. I visited the org back in those days and was shocked at the disrespect and anger found here. True fans would not have reacted with such hatred against what this man stood for and would definitely not be dissing his best friends like this. He has made wonderful music since and was obviously much happier after becoming a jw. It's so plain to see in his eyes that he found a peace that was lacking before. Instead of being happy for him, people are moaning that he doesn't sing as openly about sex anymore. Well, if you can't feel the sexy groove in his music the past fifteen years, then I'm genuinely worried about you. LOL If you care anything about Prince as a person you would be happy for him. And respect his choice of friends instead of assuming that you can see what's behind their relationship without knowing either of them personally. /Rant over

That right there is the crux of the problem.

jjam said: