Blakbear said:

Astasheiks said:

The Majority on here don't like Larry bytch arse and you ain't going to change that. And yes he has some part to blame for getting P in that Cult!!!

I don't want you to like Larry. Hell, I don't like him either. I'm just pointing out hiw stupid it is to blame him for some shit Prince did. And it's also childish to call JW a cult because you don't like it. But if it makes you feel better to throw a tantrum like a child, go ahead. You just keep losing in the end, because I know you're an uneducated little brat.

I guess well known Orthodox Christain Ministers like Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Dr Jefferies of First Baptist Church of Dallas, etc. etc. are Childish also! If you ask them guess what they would tell your arse about the JWs??? Furthermore, How about meeting in a Court of Law on that "uneducated" part!

[Edited 7/6/16 11:47am]

nursev said:

Again fuck LG...never trusted his ass and still don't.

nursev said:

koolwater said:

There is a time & place for this discussion and I'm open to discussing it but I don't think this is the place

bye Larry

good Idea

Astasheiks said:

Furthermore, How about meeting in a Court of Law on that "uneducated" part!

[Edited 7/6/16 11:47am]

Astasheiks said:

Blakbear said:

Astasheiks said:

The Majority on here don't like Larry bytch arse and you ain't going to change that. And yes he has some part to blame for getting P in that Cult!!!

I don't want you to like Larry. Hell, I don't like him either. I'm just pointing out hiw stupid it is to blame him for some shit Prince did. And it's also childish to call JW a cult because you don't like it. But if it makes you feel better to throw a tantrum like a child, go ahead. You just keep losing in the end, because I know you're an uneducated little brat.

“If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him” (Deut. 18:22).2

Like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christianity died with the last of the apostles. They believe Christianity was not resurrected until their founder, Charles Taze Russell, began organizing the Watchtower Society in the 1870s. In their view the cross is a pagan symbol adopted by an apostate church and salvation is impossible apart from the Watchtower. While the Witnesses on your doorstep consider themselves to be the only authentic expression of Christianity, the Society they serve compromises, confuses, or contradicts essential Christian doctrine.

First, the Watchtower Society compromises the nature of God. They teach their devotees that the Trinity is a “freakish-looking, three headed God” invented by Satan and that Jesus is merelya god. In Watchtower theology Jesus was created by God as the archangel Michael, during his earthly sojourn became merely human, and after his crucifixion was re-created an immaterial spirit creature. JWs also deny the physical resurrection of Jesus. According to Russell, the body that hung on a torture stake either “dissolved into gasses” or is “preserved somewhere as the grand memorial of God’s love.”

Furthermore, although Christians believe all believers will spend eternity with Christ in “a new heaven and a new earth” (Rev. 21:1; 22:17), the Watchtower teaches that only 144,000 people will make it to heaven while the rest of the faithful will live apart from Christ on earth. Thus in Watchtower lore there is a “little flock” of 144,000 who get to go to heaven and a “great crowd” of others who are relegated to earth. The heavenly class are born again, receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and partake of communion; the earthly class do not. To substantiate the notion that heaven’s door was closed irrevocably in 1935, JWs point to “flashes of prophetic light” received by Joseph F. Rutherford at a JW convention in Washington D.C. Other false “flashes of prophetic light” include Watchtower predictions of end-time cataclysms that were to occur in 1914…1918…1925…1975.

Finally, under the threat of being “disfellowshipped,” Jehovah’s Witnesses are barred from celebrating Christmas, birthdays, or holidays such as Thanksgiving and Good Friday. Even more troubling are Watchtower regulations regarding vaccinations, organ transplants, and blood transfusions. In 1931, JWs were instructed to refuse vaccinations—by 1952, this regulation was rescinded. In 1967, organ transplants were ruled a forbidden form of cannibalism—by 1980, this edict was erased. In 1909, the Watchtower produced a prohibition against blood transfusions. No doubt, this too will one day become a relic of the past. In the meantime, tens of thousands have not only been ravished spiritually by the Watchtower Society but have paid the ultimate physical price as well.

While Watchtower adherents are often willing to do more for a lie than Christians are willing to do for the truth, these and a host of other doctrinal perversions keep JWs from rightly being considered Christian.

Is the New World Translation of the Bible Credible?

Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the New World Translation (NWT) is the “work of competent scholars.” Conversely, they contend that other Bible translations are corrupted by religious traditions that are rooted in paganism. In reality, the NWT is the work of a Bible Translation Committee with no working knowledge of biblical languages. Their bias is so blatant that Dr. Bruce Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton, not only characterized the NWT as a “frightful mistranslation” but as “erroneous,” “pernicious,” and “reprehensible.”

First, the NWT mistranslates the Greek Scriptures in order to expunge the deity of Jesus Christ. Against all credible scholarship, Jesus is downgraded from God to “a” god in John 1 and demoted from the Creator of all things to a mere creature who created all other things in Colossians 1. According to the translation committee of the Watchtower Society, as noted above, Jesus was created by God as the archangel Michael, during his earthly sojourn was merely human, and after his crucifixion was recreated an immaterial spirit creature.

Furthermore, the Translation Committee has sought to conform the NWT to their religious traditions by replacing the cross of Christ with a torture stake. Matthew 10:38, for example, has been altered to read, “And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” In Watchtower lore, the cross is a pagan symbol adopted by an apostate Christianity when Satan took control of the early church. Jehovah’s Witnesses view wearing a cross as a blatant act of idolatry. Conversely, Christians wear crosses as a reminder of what was at once the most brutal and beautiful act in redemptive history.

Finally, the Watchtower Society claims that the Christian Scriptures have “been tampered with” in order to eliminate the name Jehovah from the text. In reality, it is the Translation Committee of the NWT that can rightly be accused of tampering. In well over two hundred cases the name Jehovah has been gratuitously inserted into the New Testament text. In passages such as Romans 10:13 this is done to obscure the unique deity of Christ. In other passages, it is done under the pretext that referring to God as Lord rather than Jehovah is patently pagan. Ironically, in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, Watchtower translators themselves fall into this “pagan” practice by translating the Greek word kurios as “Lord” even in cases where it specifically refers to the Father.

For these and a host of other reasons, Greek scholars across the board denounce the NWT. Dr. Julius Mantey, author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, called the NWT a “shocking mistranslation,” and Dr. William Barclay characterized the translators themselves as “intellectually dishonest.”

—Hank Hanegraaff

Hank Hanegraaff is president of the Christian Research Institute and host of the Bible Answer Man broadcast heard daily throughout the United States and Canada via radio, satellite radio XM-170, and the Internet. For a list of stations airing theBible Answer Man, or to listen online, log on to equip.org.

http://www.equip.org/article/are-jehovahs-witnesses-christian-3/

Educate yourself Blakbear from some Real Christains ....

Shoo wee. I swear things turn from friendly conversation, to confrontational, to just a hateful rage in here on a dime. Welcome to the org. I mean I don't agree with Bunsterdk on things but I still respect her opinion even if I don't agree with a view point she has. I wish ppl didn't resort to personal attacks on here and if U do don't let it be over friggin' Larry Damn Graham. U want proof he's a trouble maker look what's happening.

Astasheiks said:

Blakbear said:

Astasheiks said:

---

“If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him” (Deut. 18:22).2

Like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christianity died with the last of the apostles. They believe Christianity was not resurrected until their founder, Charles Taze Russell, began organizing the Watchtower Society in the 1870s. In their view the cross is a pagan symbol adopted by an apostate church and salvation is impossible apart from the Watchtower. While the Witnesses on your doorstep consider themselves to be the only authentic expression of Christianity, the Society they serve compromises, confuses, or contradicts essential Christian doctrine.

First, the Watchtower Society compromises the nature of God. They teach their devotees that the Trinity is a “freakish-looking, three headed God” invented by Satan and that Jesus is merelya god. In Watchtower theology Jesus was created by God as the archangel Michael, during his earthly sojourn became merely human, and after his crucifixion was re-created an immaterial spirit creature. JWs also deny the physical resurrection of Jesus. According to Russell, the body that hung on a torture stake either “dissolved into gasses” or is “preserved somewhere as the grand memorial of God’s love.”

Furthermore, although Christians believe all believers will spend eternity with Christ in “a new heaven and a new earth” (Rev. 21:1; 22:17), the Watchtower teaches that only 144,000 people will make it to heaven while the rest of the faithful will live apart from Christ on earth. Thus in Watchtower lore there is a “little flock” of 144,000 who get to go to heaven and a “great crowd” of others who are relegated to earth. The heavenly class are born again, receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and partake of communion; the earthly class do not. To substantiate the notion that heaven’s door was closed irrevocably in 1935, JWs point to “flashes of prophetic light” received by Joseph F. Rutherford at a JW convention in Washington D.C. Other false “flashes of prophetic light” include Watchtower predictions of end-time cataclysms that were to occur in 1914…1918…1925…1975.

Finally, under the threat of being “disfellowshipped,” Jehovah’s Witnesses are barred from celebrating Christmas, birthdays, or holidays such as Thanksgiving and Good Friday. Even more troubling are Watchtower regulations regarding vaccinations, organ transplants, and blood transfusions. In 1931, JWs were instructed to refuse vaccinations—by 1952, this regulation was rescinded. In 1967, organ transplants were ruled a forbidden form of cannibalism—by 1980, this edict was erased. In 1909, the Watchtower produced a prohibition against blood transfusions. No doubt, this too will one day become a relic of the past. In the meantime, tens of thousands have not only been ravished spiritually by the Watchtower Society but have paid the ultimate physical price as well.

While Watchtower adherents are often willing to do more for a lie than Christians are willing to do for the truth, these and a host of other doctrinal perversions keep JWs from rightly being considered Christian.

Is the New World Translation of the Bible Credible?

Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the New World Translation (NWT) is the “work of competent scholars.” Conversely, they contend that other Bible translations are corrupted by religious traditions that are rooted in paganism. In reality, the NWT is the work of a Bible Translation Committee with no working knowledge of biblical languages. Their bias is so blatant that Dr. Bruce Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton, not only characterized the NWT as a “frightful mistranslation” but as “erroneous,” “pernicious,” and “reprehensible.”

First, the NWT mistranslates the Greek Scriptures in order to expunge the deity of Jesus Christ. Against all credible scholarship, Jesus is downgraded from God to “a” god in John 1 and demoted from the Creator of all things to a mere creature who created all other things in Colossians 1. According to the translation committee of the Watchtower Society, as noted above, Jesus was created by God as the archangel Michael, during his earthly sojourn was merely human, and after his crucifixion was recreated an immaterial spirit creature.

Furthermore, the Translation Committee has sought to conform the NWT to their religious traditions by replacing the cross of Christ with a torture stake. Matthew 10:38, for example, has been altered to read, “And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” In Watchtower lore, the cross is a pagan symbol adopted by an apostate Christianity when Satan took control of the early church. Jehovah’s Witnesses view wearing a cross as a blatant act of idolatry. Conversely, Christians wear crosses as a reminder of what was at once the most brutal and beautiful act in redemptive history.

Finally, the Watchtower Society claims that the Christian Scriptures have “been tampered with” in order to eliminate the name Jehovah from the text. In reality, it is the Translation Committee of the NWT that can rightly be accused of tampering. In well over two hundred cases the name Jehovah has been gratuitously inserted into the New Testament text. In passages such as Romans 10:13 this is done to obscure the unique deity of Christ. In other passages, it is done under the pretext that referring to God as Lord rather than Jehovah is patently pagan. Ironically, in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, Watchtower translators themselves fall into this “pagan” practice by translating the Greek word kurios as “Lord” even in cases where it specifically refers to the Father.

For these and a host of other reasons, Greek scholars across the board denounce the NWT. Dr. Julius Mantey, author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, called the NWT a “shocking mistranslation,” and Dr. William Barclay characterized the translators themselves as “intellectually dishonest.”

—Hank Hanegraaff

Hank Hanegraaff is president of the Christian Research Institute and host of the Bible Answer Man broadcast heard daily throughout the United States and Canada via radio, satellite radio XM-170, and the Internet. For a list of stations airing theBible Answer Man, or to listen online, log on to equip.org.

http://www.equip.org/article/are-jehovahs-witnesses-christian-3/

Educate yourself Blakbear from some Real Christains ....

Nope, try again. Lies. I'm not even JW and I know this isn't even true. Please stop targeting this crap at me, I don't believe in ridiculous things from people who have an axe to grind against religions not their own.

ACharmed1 said:

Shoo wee. I swear things turn from friendly conversation, to confrontational, to just a hateful rage in here on a dime. Welcome to the org. I mean I don't agree with Bunsterdk on things but I still respect her opinion even if I don't agree with a view point she has. I wish ppl didn't resort to personal attacks on here and if U do don't let it be over friggin' Larry Damn Graham. U want proof he's a trouble maker look what's happening.

Nope, I'm the troublemaker. And no LG nowhere near me to blame that on. I'm a troublemaker all on my own.

Bunsterdk said:

Okay, Astasheiks, I only got one sentence into all of that before I met the first lie. We certainly don't believe that Christianity died with the last apostles etc etc. There were faithful Christians all the way up through the centuries. I'm not going to read any further as it seems futile. You're just going to post new lies. And I do call them lies, because whoever wrote that no doubt knew it wasn't true. Aaaaand we're back to referring to JW.ORG yet again for the actual true facts about jw. I can keep doing this, but I don't really see the point in these threads bashing jw with direct lies about our beliefs on a site dedicated to a known and very zealous jw? Hmmm.. Oh well..

Well read all of it, its informative, for example

"Furthermore, the Translation Committee has sought to conform the NWT to their religious traditions by replacing the cross of Christ with a torture stake. Matthew 10:38, for example, has been altered to read, “And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” In Watchtower lore, the cross is a pagan symbol adopted by an apostate Christianity when Satan took control of the early church. Jehovah’s Witnesses view wearing a cross as a blatant act of idolatry. Conversely, Christians wear crosses as a reminder of what was at once the most brutal and beautiful act in redemptive history."

Remember the song "The Cross", Prince use to wear a cross sometimes during the Lovesexy tour...Well after getting with LG, LG had him on stage at one of the Black Award shows (BET or NAACP) awards doing The Cross as depicting hung on stake rather than a Cross, a direct result of getting with LG!!! I can still remember it, I got it recorded.

Blakbear said:

ACharmed1 said:

Shoo wee. I swear things turn from friendly conversation, to confrontational, to just a hateful rage in here on a dime. Welcome to the org. I mean I don't agree with Bunsterdk on things but I still respect her opinion even if I don't agree with a view point she has. I wish ppl didn't resort to personal attacks on here and if U do don't let it be over friggin' Larry Damn Graham. U want proof he's a trouble maker look what's happening.

Nope, I'm the troublemaker. And no LG nowhere near me to blame that on. I'm a troublemaker all on my own.

Fair enuff.

Astasheiks said:

When you're vulnerable - the vultures swoop!

bashraka said:

Blaming Larry Graham for Prince choosing to become a Jehovah Witness is insulting to Prince as a man. It makes it seem like Prince could not make life decisions for himself and needed someone to hold his hand for him. Prince found a place of worship (Kingdom Hall) and Jehovah Witness as a faith that he chose for his life. Regardless of whether folks like or dislike the religion, Larry mentored Prince like an older brother, shared how his life was with Prince before being baptized in the religion and how it give his life structure. Also, Prince genuinely found happiness recording with Larry Graham and jamming with him at Paisley Park and on the road with Chaka Khan up until the gig they did together with 3RDEYEGIRL. Lastly, Prince was a creative genius that worked 24/7 with many different creative pursuits that will take a toll on your body-writing and recording songs, rehearsing and recording with different bands concurrently, playing Hit And Run style concerts and working on an autobiography. It may have been too much to take on at 57. Prince's commitment to a faith that demands humility and patience is a testament to Prince and Larry did his job as a church elder. Just leave it at that.

Amen to that.

so about the stauros thing. from a strictly historical perspective, jesus christ was crucified in a roman fashion, to humilate him, no? the romans did not crucify anyone on a stake! it was a very elaborate, drawn out process designed to maximize suffering and make a public display of them. that is why heavy wooden timber was used. a common stake could not and would not have help the weight of a human body for any period of time. certainly not long enough for them to suffocate to death which takes hours.

+++

just trying to help.

[Edited 7/6/16 15:15pm]

wavesofbliss said:

what does it matter the shape of the crucifix? Isn't the point that Jesus was crucified? A 'cross' or a 'stake' I'm sure neither was pleasant. Just don't get the whole 'argument' about the shape of something used to kill a man over 2,000 years ago. It doesn't matter. Christian, Jew, JW, doesn't matter. It's all religion and as usual by the looks of this thread, it always involves arguments and stuff I never read about in the bible.

It is what it is. Prince had some weird bromance with LG to the point of his acceptance speech into the hall of fame sounded like an ode to larry graham. It was weird to me then, and it still is. But it was Prince's choice. He was child like and I believe gullible in alot of ways and therefore the perfect target for conspiracy theorists and religious nuts.

CROWNS1 said:

Bunsterdk said:

wavesofbliss said:

so about the stauros thing. from a strictly historical perspective, jesus christ was crucified in a roman fashion, to humilate him, no? the romans did not crucify anyone on a stake! it was a very elaborate, drawn out process designed to maximize suffering and make a public display of them. that is why heavy wooden timber was used. a common stake could not and would not have help the weight of a human body for any period of time. certainly not long enough for them to suffocate to death which takes hours.

+++

just trying to help.

[Edited 7/6/16 15:15pm]

Kind of depends on the size of the thing, wouldn't you say?

Put your hands together above your head and hold them there for an hour. Now imagine your entire weight being held by a nail struck through your hands above your head and iirc one through your feet as well. I'd say that was at least as bad as being nailed to a cross.

I'll be happy to look up non-jw sources for this, but not now as it's past midnight and I'm not nocturnal. If you're interested, I'm sure there are non-jw sources listed at jw.org.

I'm a little torn about the dialogue on this site simply because we cannot turn back time to the day before Prince passed on, and this site should not be turned into a "religious war" of words and symbols. I hope we digress, and honestly, I'm ready for this thread to be locked.

BUT after saying that, I did come across a webpage describing the crucifixion from a physician and archeological point of view: http://www1.cbn.com/medic...sus-christ

Maybe this will give clarity to both points of view.

Read if you're interested, but personally, I hope we all digress from this.

roxy831 said:

roxy831 said:

Bunsterdk said:

roxy831 said:

I'm a little torn about the dialogue on this site simply because we cannot turn back time to the day before Prince passed on, and this site should not be turned into a "religious war" of words and symbols. I hope we digress, and honestly, I'm ready for this thread to be locked.

BUT after saying that, I did come across a webpage describing the crucifixion from a physician and archeological point of view: http://www1.cbn.com/medic...sus-christ

Maybe this will give clarity to both points of view.

Read if you're interested, but personally, I hope we all digress from this.

Religion and Prince are inseparable, but I wish people would just accept his choices and move on if they don't like them. Some are really interested in knowing more about his choices and that doesn't mean they want to make the same choices in their lives. They just want to understand the man instead of trying to make him fit their world view when he clearly doesn't. Unfortunately some want to turn this into a constant religious battle and that's sad. It means that we can't talk about one of the single most important aspects of Prince the man, his faith, without it turning into a fight with all kinds of accusations flying through the air. He deserved better imo. This was of outmost importance to him, he said so often enough. That said, however, I don't think it's off topic to discuss something that he felt strongly enough about to address it like he did with the stauros. I'm not trying to win the discussion, just to explain further what he meant and point out his sources. Others know so much more about his music than I do, others again about other aspects of his life. This subject (his faith as a jw) I can shed light on for those interested, so I offer to do that with respect towards those who don't agree.

This whole thread does not look respectful. But if arguing makes people feel better, go ahead.

Bunsterdk said:

Bunsterdk said:

Kind of depends on the size of the thing, wouldn't you say? Put your hands together above your head and hold them there for an hour. Now imagine your entire weight being held by a nail struck through your hands above your head and iirc one through your feet as well. I'd say that was at least as bad as being nailed to a cross. I'll be happy to look up non-jw sources for this, but not now as it's past midnight and I'm not nocturnal. If you're interested, I'm sure there are non-jw sources listed at jw.org.

Here you go. This article refers to many non-jw sources that state that stauros meant stake or pole. You can look them up if you want to check that they have not been misquoted: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/...&p=par We have plenty of telephone poles in this country that could bear the weight of more than one man at a time, BTW. Depends on the thickness of the tree you cut the pole from. The same would be true of a cross really as that's just a pole with another piece of wood and the upright one has to carry the weight of both the man and the smaller piece of wood. If you don't care about the cross then it doesn't matter, but as is obvious in this thread it is a touchy subject for some. No-one is forced to change anything though just because they find out about the historic background of the cross as we know it today. It's entirely up to everyone of us. You are free to keep using it, I'm free not to. God alone judges.

you missed the point i was making, which was/is that if there is a historical record and archeological evidence to back it up(and there is) about the manner in which roman crucifictions were carried out, and the JWs STILL strain to misinterpret/misrepresent the way in which christ died, why should i care(and i surley don't) about how they apply such mistranslations/misinterpretations on other points/scriptures.

++

now in the interest of full disclosure my BA is in classical culture and I have been to europe and the mediterrean on archeological digs. i have studied ancient greek and latin(i prefer latin) since high school. i'm not a top scholar but i can work my way through some text and engravings. also, i have 3 family members who were mid-life converts to the watchtower bullocks. 1 of them moved from houston to detroit to "help our niece with the death of her mother" in spite of the fact that she was never close to either one of them. does this sound familiar to aspects of the P & L story? this same family member is to the JWs what evangelicals call missionaries. "pioneers" or some such. i would not be surprised if LG was one as well.

roxy831 said:

wavesofbliss said:

CROWNS1 said:

what does it matter the shape of the crucifix? Isn't the point that Jesus was crucified? A 'cross' or a 'stake' I'm sure neither was pleasant. Just don't get the whole 'argument' about the shape of something used to kill a man over 2,000 years ago. It doesn't matter. Christian, Jew, JW, doesn't matter. It's all religion and as usual by the looks of this thread, it always involves arguments and stuff I never read about in the bible.

It is what it is. Prince had some weird bromance with LG to the point of his acceptance speech into the hall of fame sounded like an ode to larry graham. It was weird to me then, and it still is. But it was Prince's choice. He was child like and I believe gullible in alot of ways and therefore the perfect target for conspiracy theorists and religious nuts.

Yes Sir!!!

I Wonder which one of these Women are Correct???