So he probably died anywhere from midnight to 3am. With his sleeping issue, I wonder if he was taking the elevator to go to his studio to record. It looks like his staff arranged some kind of invention with the doctor.

How are they ruling out suicide if he had pills on him? Just because there was no suicide note, so what? If someone has a pill bottle on them and are found dead, how can you rule out the possibility? I'm just trying to understand this from an investigative/medical perspective

I think it was the Sheriff that said (that morning) there were no indications of suicide or reason to suspect foul play. They would need affirmative evidence to that effect, such as toxicology and autopsy results, which they did not have at the time.

From the other Star Tribune reports, it sounds like the Sheriff's office detained Kornfeld for questioning that morning, so I would assume that happened before the press conference.

BreakfastCanWait said:

How are they ruling out suicide if he had pills on him? Just because there was no suicide note, so what? If someone has a pill bottle on them and are found dead, how can you rule out the possibility? I'm just trying to understand this from an investigative/medical perspective

BreakfastCanWait said:

How are they ruling out suicide if he had pills on him? Just because there was no suicide note, so what? If someone has a pill bottle on them and are found dead, how can you rule out the possibility? I'm just trying to understand this from an investigative/medical perspective

Of course there are multiple factors that have to be taken into account, but one immediate clue is the bottle itself. For instance, if a bottle is labeled to contain 30 pills and said bottle still contains 28 when found with the deceased, probably the person wasn't intent on suicide.

[Edited 5/20/16 23:47pm]

He might just have had the pills on him at the time, like in his pocket or whatever. He was found in the elevator, so he was going to or from somewhere, I guess, so he took them with him. If there had been any indications of suicide the bottle would have been empty, right? That was probably the reasoning behind the "no evidence of suicide". Either that or the xeriff just wanted to respect his privacy.
Also, if it has been established he was being treated for opioid withdrawal symptoms that means he had acknowledged an addiction/dependency problem and was dealing with. Perhaps those symptoms were getting to be too difficult to handle, his staff might have decided to call the doctor for an emergency meeting. He could have decided that the he'd rather continue taking the opiates (hence the plane incident) cause the withdrawl symptoms were too awful and made him feel worse and were affecting his work, and his staff got so concerned with that set back that they called a doctor to intervene.
Of course, again, all this is speculation on my part.

*

Edited: was just reading this:

"Sources with knowledge of the investigation have told the Star Tribune that despite putting on a calm face after his emergency treatment for an opioid overdose in Moline, Ill., on April 15, Prince grew increasingly agitated in the following days. That prompted one member of his staff to place a call to New York at 6 a.m. on April 20 — the day before the musician’s body was found — seeking advice from someone who had recently worked with the musician, a source said.

Later that day, Prince was given an intravenous treatment at a local hospital, a source with knowledge of the investigation said."

*
Ok, so an alleged OD on the plane, rushed to hospital, then (5 days later) is given an intravenous treatment at the local hospital, on the 20th!!!!!!!!!!... For me, this question still remains: WHY WAS THIS MAN LEFT ALONE? There were too many health scares on those few days! I saddens me so to think that all this could have been prevented...

[Edited 5/21/16 2:00am]

nursev said:

MMJas said:

cardinal said:

MMJas said:

He might just have had the pills on him at the time, like in his pocket or whatever. He was found in the elevator, so he was going to or from somewhere, I guess, so he took them with him. If there had been any indications of suicide the bottle would have been empty, right? That was probably the reasoning behind the "no evidence of suicide". Either that or the xeriff just wanted to respect his privacy.
Also, if it has been established he was being treated for opioid withdrawal symptoms that means he had acknowledged an addiction/dependency problem and was dealing with. Perhaps those symptoms were getting to be too difficult to handle, his staff might have decided to call the doctor for an emergency meeting. He could have decided that the he'd rather continue taking the opiates (hence the plane incident) cause the withdrawl symptoms were too awful and made him feel worse and were affecting his work, and his staff got so concerned with that set back that they called a doctor to intervene.
Of course, again, all this is speculation on my part.

*

Edited: was just reading this:

"Sources with knowledge of the investigation have told the Star Tribune that despite putting on a calm face after his emergency treatment for an opioid overdose in Moline, Ill., on April 15, Prince grew increasingly agitated in the following days. That prompted one member of his staff to place a call to New York at 6 a.m. on April 20 — the day before the musician’s body was found — seeking advice from someone who had recently worked with the musician, a source said.

Later that day, Prince was given an intravenous treatment at a local hospital, a source with knowledge of the investigation said."

*
Ok, so an alleged OD on the plane, rushed to hospital, then (5 days later) is given an intravenous treatment at the local hospital, on the 20th!!!!!!!!!!... For me, this question still remains: WHY WAS THIS MAN LEFT ALONE? There were too many health scares on those few days! I saddens me so to think that all this could have been prevented...

[Edited 5/21/16 2:00am]

ok now i am just livid. a man whose plan practically dove down a few days earlier, who is agitated (when has anyone seen prince agitated? the man exuded tranquility and explosive energy at once but not agitation), and had AN IV TREATMENT THAT DAY is left alone? and please, no more "he was prince, stubborn, blah blah" this is fricking INSANE, peeps. and what the eff was in that iv and who gets iv medicine and just goes home like nothing happened? alone? damn. i am NOT liking the way this is shaping up. and why the f$ck call ny at 6am on the 20th? these people never heard of 911? [Edited 5/21/16 5:05am]

In my opinion that IV medicine could have been many things: immediate pain relief, anxiety medicine, etc.

cardinal said:

MMJas said:

He might just have had the pills on him at the time, like in his pocket or whatever. He was found in the elevator, so he was going to or from somewhere, I guess, so he took them with him. If there had been any indications of suicide the bottle would have been empty, right? That was probably the reasoning behind the "no evidence of suicide". Either that or the xeriff just wanted to respect his privacy.
Also, if it has been established he was being treated for opioid withdrawal symptoms that means he had acknowledged an addiction/dependency problem and was dealing with. Perhaps those symptoms were getting to be too difficult to handle, his staff might have decided to call the doctor for an emergency meeting. He could have decided that the he'd rather continue taking the opiates (hence the plane incident) cause the withdrawl symptoms were too awful and made him feel worse and were affecting his work, and his staff got so concerned with that set back that they called a doctor to intervene.
Of course, again, all this is speculation on my part.

*

Edited: was just reading this:

"Sources with knowledge of the investigation have told the Star Tribune that despite putting on a calm face after his emergency treatment for an opioid overdose in Moline, Ill., on April 15, Prince grew increasingly agitated in the following days. That prompted one member of his staff to place a call to New York at 6 a.m. on April 20 — the day before the musician’s body was found — seeking advice from someone who had recently worked with the musician, a source said.

Later that day, Prince was given an intravenous treatment at a local hospital, a source with knowledge of the investigation said."

*
Ok, so an alleged OD on the plane, rushed to hospital, then (5 days later) is given an intravenous treatment at the local hospital, on the 20th!!!!!!!!!!... For me, this question still remains: WHY WAS THIS MAN LEFT ALONE? There were too many health scares on those few days! I saddens me so to think that all this could have been prevented...

[Edited 5/21/16 2:00am]

ok now i am just livid. a man whose plan practically dove down a few days earlier, who is agitated (when has anyone seen prince agitated? the man exuded tranquility and explosive energy at once but not agitation), and had AN IV TREATMENT THAT DAY is left alone? and please, no more "he was prince, stubborn, blah blah" this is fricking INSANE, peeps. and what the eff was in that iv and who gets iv medicine and just goes home like nothing happened? alone? damn. i am NOT liking the way this is shaping up. and why the f$ck call ny at 6am on the 20th? these people never heard of 911? [Edited 5/21/16 5:05am]

I've seen Prince agitated. I've also had family members become agitated to the point that they reached psychosis. I wouldn't be so quick to judge everyone involved. People in an agitated state can be very strong willed, so it would not surprise me if Kirk's offer to stay over was rebuffed and he felt powerless to do anything about it, or had no reason to think an OD was imminent.

As to the IV treatments: they are common if you go to a hospital and appear dehydrated. It is SOP. I had one a few months ago after getting food poisoning, and there were no instructions that I needed somebody to stay with me after I was released.

MMJas said:

MMJas said:

cardinal said:

MMJas said: ok now i am just livid. a man whose plan practically dove down a few days earlier, who is agitated (when has anyone seen prince agitated? the man exuded tranquility and explosive energy at once but not agitation), and had AN IV TREATMENT THAT DAY is left alone? and please, no more "he was prince, stubborn, blah blah" this is fricking INSANE, peeps. and what the eff was in that iv and who gets iv medicine and just goes home like nothing happened? alone? damn. i am NOT liking the way this is shaping up. and why the f$ck call ny at 6am on the 20th? these people never heard of 911? [Edited 5/21/16 5:05am]

In my opinion that IV medicine could have been many things: immediate pain relief, anxiety medicine, etc.

Or it could've been no medication at all, just a bottle of fluid replacement. He certainly looked like he needed more water.

BanishedBrian said:

cardinal said:

BanishedBrian said:

I've seen Prince agitated. I've also had family members become agitated to the point that they reached psychosis. I wouldn't be so quick to judge everyone involved. People in an agitated state can be very strong willed, so it would not surprise me if Kirk's offer to stay over was rebuffed and he felt powerless to do anything about it, or had no reason to think an OD was imminent.

As to the IV treatments: they are common if you go to a hospital and appear dehydrated. It is SOP. I had one a few months ago after getting food poisoning, and there were no instructions that I needed somebody to stay with me after I was released.

not trying to dump on kirk or the assistant, and they sure are not medical professionals. what bothers me is that there were a number of concerning incidents, each one concerning on its own, but in combination, are strongly suggestive of a serious situation. its hard to imagine from this vantage point that there is any scenario where medical staff and or his closest associates would see fit to leave him alone or call an out of state dr other than 911. i guess i am preparing for the worst, which would be that several individuals will be charged with some type of malpracrice/negligent homicide and we will know that this was preventable. but we will have to wait until the picture is clear.

Go watch the documentary "Heroin: Cape Cod USA" and it will sober you on how difficult the whole situation would have been for everyone involved. I realize this doesn't involve heroin, but it's basically the same situation, just a wealthier version. (And before you start in with, "no, that's different because Prince was in pain," one of the persons in that doc is a teenager who was severely hurt by a drunk driver and became addicted to opiods in the hospital. It doesn't matter how your addiction starts, you end up in the same place regardless.)

I hate this thread, and I hate myself for coming to it.

donnyenglish said:

Let's not forget another obvious signal that he was in grave danger. He had to cancel the Atlanta concert about two weeks before his death. Here is what I have: - Cancelled first Atlanta Show two weeks before death. - Unconscious on the plane and emergency landing 6 daya before his death. - Hospitalized the day before his death. - Doctor treated him the eve before his death. - Someone on inner circle finally reaches out for help the eve before his death indicating he was in grave danger. - He is left alone. I am past blaming his inner circle. Freaking doctors were well aware of his medical condition and they left him alone. Yes, his friends should have done more regardless of the fact that he was always boss. Sometimes you have to put your stubborn dad in the hospital kicking and screaming. But the doctors had a duty. The doctors had the full information. The doctors had the expertise. [Edited 5/21/16 5:56am]

The vast majority of people who die from opioid overdose do so after getting professional treatment for addiction. Most also die after previously having OD'd and gotten a save shot.

You can't just lock an addict in the hospital. There's no legal basis for it.

Unfortunately, this stuff is just the devil in terms of how powerful and addictive it is... unless you could go back in time and prevent Prince from ever taking it, there's no clear action that could have been taken that would have definitely saved his life.

The saddest thing for me will always be that he was on his own. If someone was with him, he probably could have been saved.

cardinal said:

MMJas said:

He might just have had the pills on him at the time, like in his pocket or whatever. He was found in the elevator, so he was going to or from somewhere, I guess, so he took them with him. If there had been any indications of suicide the bottle would have been empty, right? That was probably the reasoning behind the "no evidence of suicide". Either that or the xeriff just wanted to respect his privacy.
Also, if it has been established he was being treated for opioid withdrawal symptoms that means he had acknowledged an addiction/dependency problem and was dealing with. Perhaps those symptoms were getting to be too difficult to handle, his staff might have decided to call the doctor for an emergency meeting. He could have decided that the he'd rather continue taking the opiates (hence the plane incident) cause the withdrawl symptoms were too awful and made him feel worse and were affecting his work, and his staff got so concerned with that set back that they called a doctor to intervene.
Of course, again, all this is speculation on my part.

*

Edited: was just reading this:

"Sources with knowledge of the investigation have told the Star Tribune that despite putting on a calm face after his emergency treatment for an opioid overdose in Moline, Ill., on April 15, Prince grew increasingly agitated in the following days. That prompted one member of his staff to place a call to New York at 6 a.m. on April 20 — the day before the musician’s body was found — seeking advice from someone who had recently worked with the musician, a source said.

Later that day, Prince was given an intravenous treatment at a local hospital, a source with knowledge of the investigation said."

*
Ok, so an alleged OD on the plane, rushed to hospital, then (5 days later) is given an intravenous treatment at the local hospital, on the 20th!!!!!!!!!!... For me, this question still remains: WHY WAS THIS MAN LEFT ALONE? There were too many health scares on those few days! I saddens me so to think that all this could have been prevented...

[Edited 5/21/16 2:00am]

ok now i am just livid. a man whose plan practically dove down a few days earlier, who is agitated (when has anyone seen prince agitated? the man exuded tranquility and explosive energy at once but not agitation), and had AN IV TREATMENT THAT DAY is left alone? and please, no more "he was prince, stubborn, blah blah" this is fricking INSANE, peeps. and what the eff was in that iv and who gets iv medicine and just goes home like nothing happened? alone? damn. i am NOT liking the way this is shaping up. and why the f$ck call ny at 6am on the 20th? these people never heard of 911? [Edited 5/21/16 5:05am]

oh my goodness. it's becoming clear he was heading for disaster pretty obviously but there is no legal way to detain someone in the hospital against their will.

does 'agitated' have a specific meaning in this situation? i can't blame his inner circle who seems as though they were doing what they were able to do.

oh, prince .... he just wasn't able to make his own decisions at this point, the demon took hold.

jjam said:

The saddest thing for me will always be that he was on his own. If someone was with him, he probably could have been saved.

You can't stay with an addict 365/24/7.

BanishedBrian said:

BanishedBrian said:

jjam said:

The saddest thing for me will always be that he was on his own. If someone was with him, he probably could have been saved.

You can't stay with an addict 365/24/7.

thats right... an addict's most valuable commodity is time alone... by any means necessary...

Dr. Everything'll be alright
will make everything go wrong
Pills and thrills and dafodills will kill

Careful with the word 'addict'.

Most people associate it with 'junkie'. Let's be clear: Prince most certainly was NOT 'shooting up to get high'.

If he was in so much pain for such a long time that he NEEDED a painkiller to get by, that obviously led to his body developing a dependancy, thus he became an 'addict' to that painkiller – just as people who drink coffee or tea every day are addicted to caffeine, yet for some reason society doesn't label them 'addicts'.

KaresB said:

Careful with the word 'addict'.

Most people associate it with 'junkie'. Let's be clear: Prince most certainly was NOT 'shooting up to get high'.

If he was in so much pain for such a long time that he NEEDED a painkiller to get by, that obviously led to his body developing a dependancy, thus he became an 'addict' to that painkiller – just as people who drink coffee or tea every day are addicted to caffeine, yet for some reason society doesn't label them 'addicts'.

Addiction is a medical term/condition. The reason people who take opioids can't stop is because the drug causes your body to feel the effects of addiction.

Addiciton is not a pejorative term. If you get struck by a drunk driver and spend a month in the hospital getting your body reconstructed, you might end up addicted to opioids while in the hospital. Soldiers in WWI were given opioids for war injuries. They became addicted to opioids. When the injury that caused their initial pain was gone, the craving for the reaction that opioids gave them remained - that's addiction.

Caffeine is not medically addictive in the way that opioids are.

The problem here is not people using the term "addiction" in reference to what Prince may have been going through - it's the notion that "junkies" as you call them are somehow morally to blame for their condition, when this type of addiction can happen to anyone.

cardinal said:

can someone link me to where this has come out that he was an "addict?"

The StarTribune article linked above.

"A Twin Cities physician had been treating Prince in the weeks before he died for withdrawal symptoms from opioid addiction."

BanishedBrian said:

KaresB said:

Careful with the word 'addict'.

Most people associate it with 'junkie'. Let's be clear: Prince most certainly was NOT 'shooting up to get high'.

If he was in so much pain for such a long time that he NEEDED a painkiller to get by, that obviously led to his body developing a dependancy, thus he became an 'addict' to that painkiller – just as people who drink coffee or tea every day are addicted to caffeine, yet for some reason society doesn't label them 'addicts'.

Addiction is a medical term/condition. The reason people who take opioids can't stop is because the drug causes your body to feel the effects of addiction.

Addiciton is not a pejorative term. If you get struck by a drunk driver and spend a month in the hospital getting your body reconstructed, you might end up addicted to opioids while in the hospital. Soldiers in WWI were given opioids for war injuries. They became addicted to opioids. When the injury that caused their initial pain was gone, the craving for the reaction that opioids gave them remained - that's addiction.

Caffeine is not medically addictive in the way that opioids are.

The problem here is not people using the term "addiction" in reference to what Prince may have been going through - it's the notion that "junkies" as you call them are somehow morally to blame for their condition, when this type of addiction can happen to anyone.

Of course it's a medical term and it should not be pejorative – that was exactly my point. But when it's taken out of medical context and used on tabloid headlines, most people will immediately go "here we go again, a rock star with an addiction!".

That's why I thought the term should be used more carefully.

And I'm not sure about caffeine not being medically addictive. I'm not a doctor but I assume it's almost as addictive as tobacco, even if both of these work different to opioids. But that's not the point.

JellyJam said:

I hate this thread, and I hate myself for coming to it.

.

.

.

Agreed. I read the article first and wanted to see a conversation about it. There aren't many friends of mine who understand how hard it is to read that he was in the elevator for six hours. I'd read about him being in rigor mortis a week or two ago and couldn't bring myself to think about it, but I knew it would be bad because that doesn't happen right away. I talked to one friend and suggested he'd been in there for hours; that moment of silence between us was something I never want to experience again. I want to know, but I don't want to know.

KaresB said:

BanishedBrian said:

Addiction is a medical term/condition. The reason people who take opioids can't stop is because the drug causes your body to feel the effects of addiction.

Addiciton is not a pejorative term. If you get struck by a drunk driver and spend a month in the hospital getting your body reconstructed, you might end up addicted to opioids while in the hospital. Soldiers in WWI were given opioids for war injuries. They became addicted to opioids. When the injury that caused their initial pain was gone, the craving for the reaction that opioids gave them remained - that's addiction.

Caffeine is not medically addictive in the way that opioids are.

The problem here is not people using the term "addiction" in reference to what Prince may have been going through - it's the notion that "junkies" as you call them are somehow morally to blame for their condition, when this type of addiction can happen to anyone.

Of course it's a medical term and it should not be pejorative – that was exactly my point. But when it's taken out of medical context and used on tabloid headlines, most people will immediately go "here we go again, a rock star with an addiction!".

That's why I thought the term should be used more carefully.

And I'm not sure about caffeine not being medically addictive. I'm not a doctor but I assume it's almost as addictive as tobacco, even if both of these work different to opioids. But that's not the point.

The fact that most people may be ignorant about opioid addiction or what addicts go through doesn't mean we should make false distinctions in an effort to protect Prince from ignorant criticism. There are thousands of people in the USA going through what he went through and we shouldn't throw them under the bus because ignorant people call them "junkies" just so we can concoct public relations spin on Prince's behalf.

With regards to caffeine, I didn't say it's not addictive - just that it's not addictive in the same way that opioids are addictive.

I consume way too much caffeine... whenever I stop for a few days, I feel withdrawal effects. However, if I really wanted to stop, I could definitely do so. A caffeine addiction is not something that will ruin your life.

Opioids are a different level. They are not painkillers. They work directly on your brain receptors, triggering a euphoria that is unparalleled for someone who has not experienced other types of narcotics. The pain doesn't go away - you just enjoy the pain. Pain doesn't feel bad. Similarly, emotional pain is no longer bothersome. The common thing you will hear from actual opioid users is that unless you've experienced it yourself, you just can't understand. They will tell you that they desperately wish they could stop, and that they'd never taken it the first time... but their mind isn't strong enough to not come back to it. Even if they are clean for months/years, that knawing is always there and it's very difficult not to come back to it. It is nothing like caffeine/tobacco.

We can split hairs about why what I just described is different than getting "high," but there's really not much difference.

[Edited 5/21/16 8:04am]