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Reply #300 posted 06/19/09 1:46pm

JayJai

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If he needed the surgery and had it done, then I wish him a speedy and complete recovery biggrin
I swear the words "HATER" is wayyy over-rated...smh
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Reply #301 posted 06/19/09 2:31pm

DevotedPuppy

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PoorGoo813 said:

DevotedPuppy said:



Well your memory must be faulty, because it was never disproven that he did not have surgery. You believe whatever you want, I'll believe what I know.

well.....if someone needs a double hip replacement, then BOTH hips (a person has 2) needs 2 be replaced.
Now unless Prince has 3 hips, That kinda hints that the first reported hip replacement ummm didn't happen.


Are you illiterate? Show me where in any of my posts I said he already had HIP surgery. I said it was not disproven that he did not have surgery (I did not specify what kind.) Reading is fundamental.

oh....since U KNOW so much, Next time U speak 2 Prince, say Hi for me. wave


No thanks; if I ever speak to Prince you're the last person I'd talk about. Unless we were discussing the internet and photographic rights, then I might consider it.


.
[Edited 6/19/09 14:35pm]
"Your presence and dry wit are appealing in a mysterious way."
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Reply #302 posted 06/19/09 6:34pm

PoorGoo813

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DevotedPuppy said:[quote]

PoorGoo813 said:



Are you illiterate? Show me where in any of my posts I said he already had HIP surgery. I said it was not disproven that he did not have surgery (I did not specify what kind.) Reading is fundamental.

oh....since U KNOW so much, Next time U speak 2 Prince, say Hi for me. wave


No thanks; if I ever speak to Prince you're the last person I'd talk about. Unless we were discussing the internet and photographic rights, then I might consider it.

The problem isn't my ability 2 read....it's U'r selective memory. Back in the days of HQ's controversy, they posted a report that Prince HAD hip surgery that was refuted by our ever faithful J7.
The Moderators at said site gave J7 a verbal beating and claimed he didn't know what he was talking about, but a few short days later....the report was negated and removed because it was revealed by the mods that their sources lied.

U see....the conversaton back then wasn't that he NEEDED hip surgery....anyone would have agreed with that.
The problem was that it was reported, INCORRECTLY that he HAD the surgery.

Now as educated a person as U claim 2 be, I'm sure that demanding apologies on behalf of their mistake is silly.

Oh...and your play on words...hoping 2 confuse the lesser intelligent, is really a sad attempt at being right....which U are not.

I am well versed in the art of reading just as U feel U R well versed at word flips.
Peace&BeWild
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Reply #303 posted 06/19/09 6:42pm

Vendetta1

pennylover said:

Vendetta1 said:

So much to say.....

First of all, I don't think it matters if P needs a hip replacement or not. If he does, he knows it. Once you make your concerns known to someone you care about, you have to let it go. At the end of the day, they will do what they want. all I know is I really don't care. I think I'd rather focus on someone who gives a damn about me. I am really feeling like this is none of my business.

Next, the HQ thing. Whether it is true or not (and I will not believe this about P until it comes from him), the way they did J7 is enough to make me never give them kudos for being right.

Nextly, there is a lot misinformation about JWs on this thread.

Lastly, if Prince is afraid to get the surgery done because it admitting time is not actually a trick, he's hypocritical. If he doesn't do because he is afraid to die, he is hypocritical. Him caring what people think? Hypocritical.

I'm late... Who is THEY and what did THEY do 2 J7
HQ reported that Prince had had or was having hip replacement surgery. J7 reported that it was not true. HQ people had some not so nice things to say about J. HQ said it had reliable sources but when it came from Prince's camp that the report of a surgery was not true, they did not offer up an apology to J. I was done fucking with that site altogether at that point.
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Reply #304 posted 06/19/09 6:54pm

PoorGoo813

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Vendetta1 said:

pennylover said:


I'm late... Who is THEY and what did THEY do 2 J7
HQ reported that Prince had had or was having hip replacement surgery. J7 reported that it was not true. HQ people had some not so nice things to say about J. HQ said it had reliable sources but when it came from Prince's camp that the report of a surgery was not true, they did not offer up an apology to J. I was done fucking with that site altogether at that point.

They totally Disrespected J7....even after the report was discredited.
oh....and just 2 clarify, HQ reported that Prince DID have hip surgery and even had the nerve 2 post an unrelated picture of him on a scooter 2 make it appear as though he was incapacitated.
Peace&BeWild
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Reply #305 posted 06/19/09 7:01pm

Vendetta1

PoorGoo813 said:

Vendetta1 said:

HQ reported that Prince had had or was having hip replacement surgery. J7 reported that it was not true. HQ people had some not so nice things to say about J. HQ said it had reliable sources but when it came from Prince's camp that the report of a surgery was not true, they did not offer up an apology to J. I was done fucking with that site altogether at that point.

They totally Disrespected J7....even after the report was discredited.
oh....and just 2 clarify, HQ reported that Prince DID have hip surgery and even had the nerve 2 post an unrelated picture of him on a scooter 2 make it appear as though he was incapacitated.
I didn't want to misspeak on what HQ said but I remember the aftermath of them not apologizing to J.
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Reply #306 posted 06/19/09 7:47pm

funkteer

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They're still fucking with J7. That never stopped. The rest of us have just gotten bored reading the crap.
"It's hard 4 me 2 say what's right when all I want to do is wrong..."
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Reply #307 posted 06/19/09 8:12pm

PoorGoo813

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funkteer said:

They're still fucking with J7. That never stopped. The rest of us have just gotten bored reading the crap.

It's just the arrogance of the HQ Mods and those that support them on that subject that leaves me flabbergasted.

They were notified that their report was wrong and they still refused 2 acknowledge that fact .....and acted like they were still right.
& the the famous "FUCK OFF" moment. I'm sure U remember that. wink
Peace&BeWild
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Reply #308 posted 06/19/09 8:44pm

jone70

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PoorGoo813 said:

DevotedPuppy said:



No thanks; if I ever speak to Prince you're the last person I'd talk about. Unless we were discussing the internet and photographic rights, then I might consider it.

The problem isn't my ability 2 read....it's U'r selective memory. Back in the days of HQ's controversy, they posted a report that Prince HAD hip surgery that was refuted by our ever faithful J7.
The Moderators at said site gave J7 a verbal beating and claimed he didn't know what he was talking about, but a few short days later....the report was negated and removed because it was revealed by the mods that their sources lied.

U see....the conversaton back then wasn't that he NEEDED hip surgery....anyone would have agreed with that.
The problem was that it was reported, INCORRECTLY that he HAD the surgery.

Now as educated a person as U claim 2 be, I'm sure that demanding apologies on behalf of their mistake is silly.

Oh...and your play on words...hoping 2 confuse the lesser intelligent, is really a sad attempt at being right....which U are not.

I am well versed in the art of reading just as U feel U R well versed at word flips.


lol Way to insult people reading this thread by calling them the "lesser intelligent". I'm not trying to confuse anyone, I'm trying to clarify. It doesn't even matter, the truth always comes out eventually.
The check. The string he dropped. The Mona Lisa. The musical notes taken out of a hat. The glass. The toy shotgun painting. The things he found. Therefore, everything seen–every object, that is, plus the process of looking at it–is a Duchamp.
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Reply #309 posted 06/19/09 8:55pm

Serena

Geez, can we not do the HQ thing again? beatdeadhorse

Remember that what we members saw/heard isn't necessarily ALL of what was going on.
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Reply #310 posted 06/19/09 9:25pm

Riverpoet31

If Prince really needs hip surgery he shouldnt hold it back because of misplace 'vanity' and definitely not because some brainwashing sect like the JW says that blood-transfusion is 'evil'.

Get some common sense man, and do something about it.
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Reply #311 posted 06/19/09 9:37pm

violetblues

Meh
In this day and age with the internet and gossip sites etc. if Prince were concerned about speculation and rumor he could have settled this long ago.
After all these years he should know the procedure.
As with anyone as famous he is, delicate personal matters like these are always bound to reach those “with inquiring minds”.
I don’t think it bothers him, that’s part of his own “mystic” but if any of this does, he has no one to blame but himself.
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Reply #312 posted 06/19/09 10:10pm

PoorGoo813

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jone70 said:

PoorGoo813 said:


The problem isn't my ability 2 read....it's U'r selective memory. Back in the days of HQ's controversy, they posted a report that Prince HAD hip surgery that was refuted by our ever faithful J7.
The Moderators at said site gave J7 a verbal beating and claimed he didn't know what he was talking about, but a few short days later....the report was negated and removed because it was revealed by the mods that their sources lied.

U see....the conversaton back then wasn't that he NEEDED hip surgery....anyone would have agreed with that.
The problem was that it was reported, INCORRECTLY that he HAD the surgery.

Now as educated a person as U claim 2 be, I'm sure that demanding apologies on behalf of their mistake is silly.

Oh...and your play on words...hoping 2 confuse the lesser intelligent, is really a sad attempt at being right....which U are not.

I am well versed in the art of reading just as U feel U R well versed at word flips.


lol Way to insult people reading this thread by calling them the "lesser intelligent". I'm not trying to confuse anyone, I'm trying to clarify. It doesn't even matter, the truth always comes out eventually.

That's called sarcasm.....which is made more apparent with that misunderstanding. Really....anyone else is more intelligent. rolleyes
Peace&BeWild
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Reply #313 posted 06/19/09 10:27pm

pennylover

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Vendetta1 said:

pennylover said:


I'm late... Who is THEY and what did THEY do 2 J7
HQ reported that Prince had had or was having hip replacement surgery. J7 reported that it was not true. HQ people had some not so nice things to say about J. HQ said it had reliable sources but when it came from Prince's camp that the report of a surgery was not true, they did not offer up an apology to J. I was done fucking with that site altogether at that point.

Thank u so much Vendetta1. I Appreciate u answering my ? wink
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Reply #314 posted 06/20/09 10:46am

warning2all

SomewhereHereOnEarth said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

** If true, this could be why we haven't seen much promotion of Lotus Flower
2007 and even 2008 he was everywhere doing shows and appearances

well said



There probably won't be any more tours, just individual gigs when he's up to it. This is probably why he's having 10 vault albums prepared because of what the future hholds now.

G'day.
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Reply #315 posted 06/21/09 9:01am

PoorGoo813

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warning2all said:

SomewhereHereOnEarth said:


well said



There probably won't be any more tours, just individual gigs when he's up to it. This is probably why he's having 10 vault albums prepared because of what the future hholds now.

G'day.

10 Vault albums?
Please Elaborate.
omfg
Peace&BeWild
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Reply #316 posted 06/21/09 9:28am

zucris

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NuPwrSoul said:

This from Roger Friedman, who while a gossip is known to be pretty reliable...

http://www.showbiz411.com...lle-apollo

Prince: So Hip He Needs Two New Ones

Tuesday, June 09, 2009
Music / By Roger Friedman

prince 263x300 Prince: So Hip He Needs Two New OnesPrince was on the prowl again last night, making an unscheduled appearance at the Apollo Theater’s 75th anniversary celebration to toast Patti Labelle.

But the real buzz on Prince is that his much reported hip problems of the past have now turned into need for a double hip replacement.

Unfortunately, thanks to his practice as a Jehovah’s Witness, Prince still refuses surgery. JW’s don’t believe in blood transfusions.

“He’s in a lot of pain,” said a source who was backstage with him last night at the Apollo. “He’s popping pain killers and hoping it will all go away.”

But it won’t. Back in 2005 reports surfaced that Prince needed one hip replaced. He declined. Then again in 2007 and 2008 came more reports that he’d finally agreed to “secret surgery.”

Now the diminutive R&B star is walking with a diamond studded stick to keep him upright. It’s the same stick I saw him with two nights ago at a post-Tony Awards bash. I’m sure he’d rather have a Raspberry beret or a little red Corvette, but for now Prince is stuck with the stick.

The question is: if it gets worse, will he go to a wheelchair?


It will be what it should be confused
Forever in my life...
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Reply #317 posted 06/22/09 9:39am

Shorty

avatar

warning2all said:

SomewhereHereOnEarth said:


well said



There probably won't be any more tours, just individual gigs when he's up to it. This is probably why he's having 10 vault albums prepared because of what the future hholds now.

G'day.


who the ?
and
what the?
sources please neutral
"not a fan" falloff yeah...ok
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Reply #318 posted 06/22/09 10:16am

salaciousV

PoorGoo813 said:

DevotedPuppy said:



No thanks; if I ever speak to Prince you're the last person I'd talk about. Unless we were discussing the internet and photographic rights, then I might consider it.

The problem isn't my ability 2 read....it's U'r selective memory. Back in the days of HQ's controversy, they posted a report that Prince HAD hip surgery that was refuted by our ever faithful J7.
The Moderators at said site gave J7 a verbal beating and claimed he didn't know what he was talking about, but a few short days later....the report was negated and removed because it was revealed by the mods that their sources lied.

U see....the conversaton back then wasn't that he NEEDED hip surgery....anyone would have agreed with that.
The problem was that it was reported, INCORRECTLY that he HAD the surgery.

Now as educated a person as U claim 2 be, I'm sure that demanding apologies on behalf of their mistake is silly.

Oh...and your play on words...hoping 2 confuse the lesser intelligent, is really a sad attempt at being right....which U are not.

I am well versed in the art of reading just as U feel U R well versed at word flips.



According to my friend who was getting info from the body guard he needs surgery and has not had it yet.

Either way I hope the little guy gets the help he needs and the Org and HQ leftovers (I mean no diss by that) really need to lay off the subject of who's right and wrong.

Obviously theres some pride issue or stupidity on Prince's part if he has not had the surgery and online bickering about it whether or not he's had it done is stupid.

Lets hope he gets it done period! Otherwise we are gonna be treated to Teddy Pendergrass part 2 and you know he wont go out in public in a wheelchair! sad
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Reply #319 posted 06/22/09 6:08pm

PoorGoo813

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salaciousV said:

PoorGoo813 said:


The problem isn't my ability 2 read....it's U'r selective memory. Back in the days of HQ's controversy, they posted a report that Prince HAD hip surgery that was refuted by our ever faithful J7.
The Moderators at said site gave J7 a verbal beating and claimed he didn't know what he was talking about, but a few short days later....the report was negated and removed because it was revealed by the mods that their sources lied.

U see....the conversaton back then wasn't that he NEEDED hip surgery....anyone would have agreed with that.
The problem was that it was reported, INCORRECTLY that he HAD the surgery.

Now as educated a person as U claim 2 be, I'm sure that demanding apologies on behalf of their mistake is silly.

Oh...and your play on words...hoping 2 confuse the lesser intelligent, is really a sad attempt at being right....which U are not.

I am well versed in the art of reading just as U feel U R well versed at word flips.



According to my friend who was getting info from the body guard he needs surgery and has not had it yet.

Either way I hope the little guy gets the help he needs and the Org and HQ leftovers (I mean no diss by that) really need to lay off the subject of who's right and wrong.

Obviously theres some pride issue or stupidity on Prince's part if he has not had the surgery and online bickering about it whether or not he's had it done is stupid.

Lets hope he gets it done period! Otherwise we are gonna be treated to Teddy Pendergrass part 2 and you know he wont go out in public in a wheelchair! sad

Here Here! thumbs up!
Peace&BeWild
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Reply #320 posted 06/23/09 11:03am

dollwoman

The wheelchair comment reminds me of the locked thread about Prince in a mobility scooter. PLEASE NO ONE POST THE PICTURE OR THIS THREAD TOO WILL GET LOCKED!

Anyway I didn't take the thread as an insult to Prince. I thought it more a comment about the fact that if Prince truely needed to use a chair it would have to be some pimped out vehicle before P got in it.


The sad thing is the condition can worsen making surgery even more dangerous and I believe have less of a chance of success. Some of you know about hip surgery from personal experience; can you comment?
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Reply #321 posted 06/26/09 6:16am

sapphiregirl

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violetblues said:

I'm not religeous but supportive of them if it makes you feel better/at one with god/whatever, but when it harms you or others, thats not where its at.

That is not god brother, that is man's foolishiness to man

I dont think harming yourself or others is gods way.
[Edited 6/9/09 13:14pm]


I wish everyone followed that doctrine.

Thank god someone finally said it.
Let's have a little fun....
If you win, I'll give you 50$
If I win, you have to get a lobotomy.

A win win situation your you.
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Reply #322 posted 06/27/09 9:21am

lunacoco

Anyone who's flown in recent years knows it's easiest to wear sandals or flip-flops to bounce thru security, Prince looks pretty good these days, if he does need surgery, the staph infection thing would scare me. Check out MRSA infections, it's been fatal for many recently.
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Reply #323 posted 06/27/09 11:49am

dirtyman2005

if Prince truly does need surgery, then I pray to God that he gets it done.
We don't want another of our musical legends to leave us prematurely.

Lets pray for the long health and life of Prince, showing our positivity and not focusing on the negatives is what we need to do.
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Reply #324 posted 06/27/09 12:06pm

Spanky

avatar

ernestsewell said:

NuPwrSoul said:

I hope it's just a rumor too... but Roger Friedman is known to source his stuff pretty well.

In any case, I know people who don't want blood transfusions for other reasons who have still been able to get surgery done. What they'll do is schedule to donate their own blood in advance of the surgery into a personal bank.

Is the JW prohibition just against using someone ele's blood, or is it against the drawing of any blood at all?


It's about using "Dead blood" aka someone else's. The drawing of blood isn't an issue to my knowledge.

Here are the verses they stand by. I found the King James version. The JW translation (New World Translation) might be worded differently of course.

Genesis 9:4 when God was telling Noah and his sons to be fruitful and multiply the earth (post-flood), "But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. "

Leviticus 17:10: "And whatsoever man [there be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."

HOWEVER, the very next verse says, "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood".

Acts 15:29: "That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

The verses are clear, when read in CONTEXT, opposed to one little segment. But for whatever reason, this blood thing was instituted in the 40's I believe, and they live by it now. It's ridiculous. There IS "bloodless surgery", but I think it's more about Prince worrying if he'll forever have a limp, can't perform, or will look like an invalid midget. Frankly, and this is bold I know, I think he's NOT having surgery just to save face.


Two serious questions for Prince and/or JW's:
1. What's God's POV on putting man-made drugs in the bloodstream for the purposes of pain relief?
2. If someone in the JW religion was stabbed but it wasn't in a fatal spot (ie. didn't hit an organ), and the JW was bleeding but could be saved with a blood transfusion after having lost lots of blood, would the JW be required to bleed to death? If so, is that considered suicide?

Questions for everyone else (including Prince and JW's):
Why doesn't God talk to us directly anymore like he did to Moses and the other dudes in the bible? I wish he would come down and give us some updates on rules with the changing times. Like... Is it ok to eat high-fructose corn syrup if it is unhealthy for the body? (ie. is it a form of suicide?) Is watching porn ok, since it isn't fornication? Is favoriting a video on youtube the same as worshipping false idols?
I wish u heaven
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Reply #325 posted 06/27/09 12:26pm

sapphiregirl

avatar

Spanky said:

ernestsewell said:



It's about using "Dead blood" aka someone else's. The drawing of blood isn't an issue to my knowledge.

Here are the verses they stand by. I found the King James version. The JW translation (New World Translation) might be worded differently of course.

Genesis 9:4 when God was telling Noah and his sons to be fruitful and multiply the earth (post-flood), "But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. "

Leviticus 17:10: "And whatsoever man [there be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."

HOWEVER, the very next verse says, "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood".

Acts 15:29: "That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

The verses are clear, when read in CONTEXT, opposed to one little segment. But for whatever reason, this blood thing was instituted in the 40's I believe, and they live by it now. It's ridiculous. There IS "bloodless surgery", but I think it's more about Prince worrying if he'll forever have a limp, can't perform, or will look like an invalid midget. Frankly, and this is bold I know, I think he's NOT having surgery just to save face.


Two serious questions for Prince and/or JW's:
1. What's God's POV on putting man-made drugs in the bloodstream for the purposes of pain relief?
2. If someone in the JW religion was stabbed but it wasn't in a fatal spot (ie. didn't hit an organ), and the JW was bleeding but could be saved with a blood transfusion after having lost lots of blood, would the JW be required to bleed to death? If so, is that considered suicide?

Questions for everyone else (including Prince and JW's):
Why doesn't God talk to us directly anymore like he did to Moses and the other dudes in the bible? I wish he would come down and give us some updates on rules with the changing times. Like... Is it ok to eat high-fructose corn syrup if it is unhealthy for the body? (ie. is it a form of suicide?) Is watching porn ok, since it isn't fornication? Is favoriting a video on youtube the same as worshipping false idols?


I think it is a good thing that noone is able to talk to him personally as he did in the past. We live in an arguementative society in which the same information can be taking 200+ different ways (which most of perceptions are based soley on adapting the information to the person's personal desires and wants.). Hence the general differences in the interpretation of the bible by catholics, jw, etc.

If god spoke to everyone as he did in the past, we would further be divided and play the "who's talking to who" game. People may claim to recieve different answers or orders.

All in all, a lot of our problems would be solved if we just used common sense in place of religion.
Let's have a little fun....
If you win, I'll give you 50$
If I win, you have to get a lobotomy.

A win win situation your you.
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Reply #326 posted 06/27/09 10:18pm

mzkqueen03

avatar

sapphiregirl said:

Spanky said:



Two serious questions for Prince and/or JW's:
1. What's God's POV on putting man-made drugs in the bloodstream for the purposes of pain relief?
2. If someone in the JW religion was stabbed but it wasn't in a fatal spot (ie. didn't hit an organ), and the JW was bleeding but could be saved with a blood transfusion after having lost lots of blood, would the JW be required to bleed to death? If so, is that considered suicide?

Questions for everyone else (including Prince and JW's):
Why doesn't God talk to us directly anymore like he did to Moses and the other dudes in the bible? I wish he would come down and give us some updates on rules with the changing times. Like... Is it ok to eat high-fructose corn syrup if it is unhealthy for the body? (ie. is it a form of suicide?) Is watching porn ok, since it isn't fornication? Is favoriting a video on youtube the same as worshipping false idols?


I think it is a good thing that noone is able to talk to him personally as he did in the past. We live in an arguementative society in which the same information can be taking 200+ different ways (which most of perceptions are based soley on adapting the information to the person's personal desires and wants.). Hence the general differences in the interpretation of the bible by catholics, jw, etc.

If god spoke to everyone as he did in the past, we would further be divided and play the "who's talking to who" game. People may claim to recieve different answers or orders.

All in all, a lot of our problems would be solved if we just used common sense in place of religion.


...i will agree!!!!!..
..mzsexybaby sexy
..She's Just A Baby..but she's my lady..my loveR..my only friend!..true love that will last!..PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND..WHAT SHE SEES IN AN OLDER MAN..they never stop 2 think that maybe i'm what she's looking 4..THEY NEVER TAKE THE TIME..2 look in her mind
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Reply #327 posted 06/27/09 10:58pm

luv4u

Moderator

avatar

moderator

lurking
canada

Ohh purple joy oh purple bliss oh purple rapture!
REAL MUSIC by REAL MUSICIANS - Prince
"I kind of wish there was a reason for Prince to make the site crash more" ~~ Ben
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Reply #328 posted 06/27/09 11:07pm

mzkqueen03

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..trust me if ur heart was full....all that other pain would bve gone...
...mzsexybaby'IF UR HEART WAS FULL" sexy
..She's Just A Baby..but she's my lady..my loveR..my only friend!..true love that will last!..PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND..WHAT SHE SEES IN AN OLDER MAN..they never stop 2 think that maybe i'm what she's looking 4..THEY NEVER TAKE THE TIME..2 look in her mind
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Reply #329 posted 06/28/09 4:52am

ElectricBlue

avatar

If True...

Prince is a fucking moron! lol

He is going to be limping around - poppin pills - or worse be rolled around all because of those stupid fairytales??? lol wow what a stupid fuck!

Isn't it funny that Prince ignores that bullshit when it comes too:
- Like 3 Face Lifts
- Hair Plugs
- Songs - Album Titles as for Eating Pussy.

Yeah limp around for the next 25 years.
rolleyes
[Edited 6/28/09 4:55am]
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Forums > Prince: Music and More > More hip-trouble rumors?