DaveT said:

An interesting take ......Defaming the Dead: The Michael Jackson Rebuttal by The Rageaholic

[Edited 1/28/19 20:46pm]

david ehrlich‏Verified account @davidehrlich Jan 25

Showbiz 411‏ @showbiz411

Replying to @davidehrlich

David, take your emotional response to the doc out of the equation. Was their any counterbalance to their stories? Any actual evidence to back them up? Are you aware that Safechuck's story comes out of a book so ugly Michael won $2.7 mil against the author?

6:48 PM - 26 Jan 2019

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Mrs Eff

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿‏ @ichy_vagenda 6h6 hours ago

Replying to @showbiz411 @davidehrlich

He never sued about the book. He never sued any child for accusing him of molestation and abuse either. He just wrote them cheques - millions of $$$$ worth - and then took up with somebody else's son.

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Showbiz 411‏ @showbiz411 6h6 hours ago

You're the expert

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Mrs Eff

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿‏ @ichy_vagenda 5h5 hours ago

If you think I'm mistaken, please show me the evidence. I'm happy to be proven wrong

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Rachel Anne Emily‏ @rachanneemily 5h5 hours ago

Here ya go:

[Edited 1/28/19 20:46pm]

Goddess4Real said:

didn't know the man, was only a fan, like you are I assume. but what we've seen him do, even after having nearly lost his career once shows something ain't right. watching the bashir docu where he's holding hands with the kid, it's obvious he didn't learn his lesson, what pisses me off is that no one around him could see that bashir was setting him up. I don't get that, if he had caring people around him they should have seen it coming. I feel bad for Mike, I really do, in any case. What a horrible life with some great achievements. It took a long time getting over his death, a long time. Prince isn't much different for me but i kinda got used to losing icons by the time Prince died so it didn't skew reality the same way for me.

Free2BMe said:

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

DaveT said:

Its been interesting reading through this thread. I've only taken a cursory interest in the latter stages of MJ's life and career so its been eye opening reading through it all.

One thing I noticed, there is a lot of "this is true" and "that's lies" on various posts. Seems to me the only person that would actually know the truth of all this is MJ.

Given how complicated this has now gotten, I'm not even going to begin to speculate what happened and what didn't, but one thing I do know is that MJ didn't help his cause with some of his actions ... dangling a baby from a balcony, bouncing a kid on his lap at an award show, admitting in interviews that he shared his bed with children that weren't his. Even if the rest of it was all lies I still find some of the behaviour very uncomfortable.

MJ was insane but he was not a pedophile IMO. You are describing insanity, attitudes of a man who needed serious help but never had the balls to get it. But being a criminal is a whole 'nother can of worms.[/quote WTF? Michael wasnt insane. I would bet money, that most of you judgemental, so-called “normal” people are definently more #@$*%* up than Michael. [Edited 1/28/19 17:39pm]

CynicKill said:

ladygirl99 said:

And they deserved it too if they had strong evidence of allegations so please with the straight black male victimhood where they can be sexual oppressors too especially toward black queers/trans.

I am not going to give black men passes for being abusers just because we shared the same racial struggle. But last time I check, a majority of white men are still the face of Metoo movement like Weinstein, Brian Singer (the latest), Woody Allen, Louis CK, Kevin Spacey, Sylvester Stallone, Steven Seagal for starters so where you been?

And as for Chris Brown, he got many passes and so had Meek Mills with violating his probation. And also charges against Anthony Anderson got dropped and he had sex assault allegations. Bill Cosby had numerous allegations and paid off went back in the 60s even midst of Jim Crow legalization and Bill Cosby was even lucky to get three years only because some deposition he confessed. Don't get me started with now Michael Jackson where there had been solid evidence he had did inappropriate things and yet he hadn't served a day in jail. Same goes for OJ and he had bullshit went back to the 60s and his victims got paid off. My point is that black men's cases got drop just like the white ones and black men got acquittal (like R. Kelly, OJ just as the likes of Robert Blake) if they are rich and powerful and with the right team.

I am all for taking up for black men if they were wrongfully accused but I am also sick of the black culture continue to give them passes if they fuck up out of racial loyality. Those days are gone and R. Kelly outrage is just a start thanks to Metoo.

You're right on many fronts.

But the fact still remains that none of the men I've highlighted above will do jail time, which is a legit serious situation.

How did a movement start with powerful white men being the spark to black men doing the jail time (and from the looks of it there will be more than Cosby because the MSM is gunning)?

I'm just playing devil's advocate. Observing.

It is what it is.

Be careful out there, and first and foremost watch your children.

Once again black men like Anthony Anderson, Neil Grasse Tyson, and others outside of Bill Cosby haven't got jail time either for their allegations. So far only one black man got jail time and that is Bill Cosby only got jail time because he confessed in a court deposition so whats next you are going to blame 'the Man' made him do it? He actually got off easy as he served jail time in his 80s and plus the prosecutors in LA and Las Vegas and other states I can't remember dropped the charges because of lack of evidence. If they want to bring a 'brotha' down the DA in those counties could have charged him with the allegations also.

And also when the movement started off, many black victims were hesitated to come out with their claims because out of racial loyalty (a few of them stated this) and the movement helped black victims to come out that is why you are seeing more too and what helped they saw the movement started by a black woman. And good too because no one should have to suffer in silence all because to protect some toxic member in their culture.

Please chill with the silly conspiracies of bringing a brotha down and whataboutism and deflected when it comes to pointing out black men's alleged wrongdoings and black men need to do better job take personal responsibility for their fuck ups and stop using the race card as a cover. That takes away from legitimate race cases.

And also R.Kelly didn't do jail time either.

PeteSilas said:

so what would it take to convince me? if bill cosby numbers come out, that would help, also, jordy chandler coming fully out to address it would help, harder proof like pics or video would do it, outside of that i'm not satisfied at all with what these guys are saying and i still can't believe MJ was so stupid as to get into that kind of mess. if he wanted to do that, he had the resources to keep it quiet like many child molestors have and do. Maybe it's true what some say, that Michael really did go mad. no rhyme or reason otherwise. either way, i'm a fan and if i'm ever convinced he did it, i'd still be a fan. you add up all the good and all the bad he may have done, the good far outweighs the bad any way you cut it. saved lives, given careers, built hospitals on and on and on and on.

Or his sister Lilly. She stated she saw some thing that but won't say it because of MJ's fans. Same goes for Mac Culkin.

I agree I wish Jordy would come out for a newer statement and I understand his older testimony is out there but this is country of short term memory. But I think James Safechuck people would listen to more because he never testified in the 2005 trial, he only provided a statement during the 1993 Jordan case and he said years too that MJ didn't harm him before I guess he came to his terms. I wished Wade Robson never testified and would have declined to testify.

I am not here trying to make people stop listening to his music and I defended MJ (even though I told people I was more of a Janet fan as I found her to be relatable) but since the Metoo movement and since I read more books and documents about this, I doubt his innocence and we agreed to disagreed. I think it is weird how some people justified of MJ (and the man admitted himself) sharing the same bed with children that weren't his.

PeteSilas said:

robson lied under oath then, so, i wonder how long it would take for a prison sentence to make him change his story again. If he lied on the stand he should be accountable just like everybody else, victim/non-victim alike.

ladygirl99 said:

Like I said abuse victims are conflicted when they are being molested by the abuser especially when they don't have the stereotype and knew how to groom their victims. Especially if that abuser is rich, powerful, and had the money to discredit in many ways. And some abusers had the next door image and people would also refuse to believe it, cause the victims not come forward or publicly support them just to keep the peace but behind closed doors, they are eating away inside and like you said the guy you meant might had been an asshole because the effects of abuse and had enabled family members.

One minute they defended their abusers publicly but might tell their therapist and close friends/family differently, I been in that shoes and so had my friends who were abused by powerful people or people who were popular among their communities. Apparently, you haven't been abused so I am going to end the conversation about this.

Yes, I agree that Wade and James with their actions are funny when it comes to profit off MJ but maybe they did that out of their own justice since they didn't have an outlet to deal with and having enable parents didn't help. And also boys could also protected their abusers because it is harder for them to come out than girls out of shame and out of fear of being label as gay.

No, you should reexamine of worship a singer man who you never met and be more logical. Forget about whether you know that Micahel Jacob Hagen as you said you had a limited connection with him? Most people wouldn't talk about their sexual abuse to people who are related to them much less the ones they had a few encounters with. That is illogical. That is why he might not tell you a real deal because you are not his friend.

Even though I never met Michael or anyone connected to him, it is laughable how people continue to dismiss people who were there from his workers to the boys he hung around and even some of his family members who saw inappropriate that would got him long jail time if he wasn't the MJ. They backtracked not maybe because they lied because the fear of rich and powerful like Michael Jackson was.

I didn't deny he lied under oath that is why I wish he never testified like Safechuck refused to. But a good therapist/counsellor'psychologist can convince a juror that he struggled between defending him and then later recanted because he was a victim of sexual abuse by a man who had power and influence.

PatrickS77 said:

ladygirl99 said:

Like I said abuse victims are conflicted when they are being molested by the abuser especially when they don't have the stereotype and knew how to groom their victims. Especially if that abuser is rich, powerful, and had the money to discredit in many ways. And some abusers had the next door image and people would also refuse to believe it, cause the victims not come forward or publicly support them just to keep the peace but behind closed doors, they are eating away inside and like you said the guy you meant might had been an asshole because the effects of abuse and had enabled family members.

One minute they defended their abusers publicly but might tell their therapist and close friends/family differently, I been in that shoes and so had my friends who were abused by powerful people or people who were popular among their communities. Apparently, you haven't been abused so I am going to end the conversation about this.

Yes, I agree that Wade and James with their actions are funny when it comes to profit off MJ but maybe they did that out of their own justice since they didn't have an outlet to deal with and having enable parents didn't help. And also boys could also protected their abusers because it is harder for them to come out than girls out of shame and out of fear of being label as gay.

No, you should reexamine of worship a singer man who you never met and be more logical. Forget about whether you know that Micahel Jacob Hagen as you said you had a limited connection with him? Most people wouldn't talk about their sexual abuse to people who are related to them much less the ones they had a few encounters with. That is illogical. That is why he might not tell you a real deal because you are not his friend.

Even though I never met Michael or anyone connected to him, it is laughable how people continue to dismiss people who were there from his workers to the boys he hung around and even some of his family members who saw inappropriate that would got him long jail time if he wasn't the MJ. They backtracked not maybe because they lied because the fear of rich and powerful like Michael Jackson was.

How convenient of you or anyone to use the behaviour of some abuse victims to explain away all the actions of those 3 guys that totally screw up their abuse stories. You should take off your abuse colored glasses and look at things the way they are.

Not that it matters, but actually, I have met Michael Jackson. As for Jakobshagen. Yes. I'm no friend of his. I didn't like him too much back in the day... as he was bragging too much about his meeting with Michael for my taste and felt something was off, when I talked to him some years ago (a phone call he put forth to me... he wanted to talk to me). But friends of mine were in closer contact with him (that's why that phone call came about). So really, I do know all I need to know about him, to know that he's a liar and will tell anything that helps him. For years, he embelished his "friendship" story with Michael, to publisha book about it and made his rounds in the press defending Michael, while selling fake autographs and memorabillia for thousands of Euros, encroaching his way into Ola Ray's circle, trying to get close to the Jackson family members and swindling his way into Forest Lawn cemetery, while selling his stories to tabloid media. 2 years ago his bluff was up. He was exposed for the fraud he is on german television. He got charged, sued and got judgements against himself to pay back money he swindled out of gullible fans, which he hasn't paid to this day. Now, after first denouncing Robson's allegations as lies, he's jumping on the #metoo and trash MJ bandwagon and tries to paint himself as a victim. And eager fools like you, who project their own shit on it, eat that shit up and use him and other frauds as proof that Michael Jackson molested children. It's sickening.

We dismiss these people because all of them had monetary reasons/motives and axes to grind and alwways made sure that whatever they had to tell made them money first. Supposed justice or protection of children never was of any concern to any of them. Even the one family member, who said she saw cheques.

[Edited 1/27/19 15:00pm]

So you determined that you met Michael like once or twice that you pretty much know all there is to know about him when it was proven that MJ had manipulated and lied to the media and to other people for years from his plastic surgeries? So I suppose to believe your accounts about your met with Michael Jackson but you are going to proclaim anyone who spent more time with MJ than you ever wish for and expressed their concerns about what they saw is a liar?

Yet people who knew Michael said the years they saw and worked with Michael Jackson, they saw some inappropriate things I am not talking about just Wade and James. If you continue to idolize MJ then fine and you are entitle to that but is laughable that you continue to call anyone that worked for him said something negative or against your fantasy narrative is a liar and money hungry and greed. But why not the same claim for MJ and his handlers who paid off people into silence?

Forget about the credibility issue with Wade and James for a minute and I don't know if they are telling the truth as I wasn't there and neither you were too and so we both agree to disagree so grow up but sexual abuse is a complicated issue and it should be discussed by the experts.

But you don't think it is odd of an adult man confessed it was nothing wrong share the same bed with underage kids? Michael admitted this himself.

And also this is Prince site. Some of us don't kiss MJ asses on here if you want fans to worship MJ that is why his forums exist first. If you don't like people question your idol and into blind idolization, you are more than welcome to go to an MJ forum.

I don't give a shit what silly names you call me but I personally think it is disturbing of adults sharing the same bed with underage children that are not theirs. I blame the parents too.

Hey that is just me and a couple others on this thread.

PeteSilas said:

cosby was a special case, for a lot of reasons that i'll only mention a few. he shunned and shamed blackfolk so no one had his back at first, now that he's in prison a few black people are defending him but many never forgave him for all that shit talking about poundcakes and saggin pants and grandma screwing her children, lot of people never forgave that shit, even now. Also, i've been objective from the start and still am, the way they got bill broke their own laws, statutes, and candace broke her agreement to settle for money. ya he raped everyone but white people will play dirty and break their own rules whenever they feel like it.

ladygirl99 said:

I agree with you. I am sick of the race card that some black folks pulled when it comes to black males who refused to take personal responsibility for their wrongdoings. It takes away from real race situations. I noticed black women don't get the same consideration when they fucked up or even less. Because of toxic masculinity and double standards.

Cosby was protected for decades and that was because of money and power even in the '60s where a black man could have got killed even for looking at a white woman here in the states particular in the Deep South.

Lots of white men did get away with their crimes toward their own kind and when they killed innocent blacks but also white men got accountable too from paid for the crimes they did when they younger to the likes of other white men who got fired and charged too.

Yeah I agree that some white people doing dirty things and I dealt with some microaggression racism too but I am just sick and tired of the black culture continue to defend particular toxic and sex offender males and their male identified handmaidens are just as bad out of racial loyal and tried to silence those who refused to defend the low elements. Toxic masculine in the black culture and white supremacy can take its daily toll on a black LGBT person who is affected by both but we have to stay stronger lol. Thank goodness for the internet for marginalised groups to have its voice.

That is why I distance myself from hoodrats and racist whites as much as I can.

Free2BMe said:

ladygirl99 said:

Like I said abuse victims are conflicted when they are being molested by the abuser especially when they don't have the stereotype and knew how to groom their victims. Especially if that abuser is rich, powerful, and had the money to discredit in many ways. And some abusers had the next door image and people would also refuse to believe it, cause the victims not come forward or publicly support them just to keep the peace but behind closed doors, they are eating away inside and like you said the guy you meant might had been an asshole because the effects of abuse and had enabled family members.

One minute they defended their abusers publicly but might tell their therapist and close friends/family differently, I been in that shoes and so had my friends who were abused by powerful people or people who were popular among their communities. Apparently, you haven't been abused so I am going to end the conversation about this.

Yes, I agree that Wade and James with their actions are funny when it comes to profit off MJ but maybe they did that out of their own justice since they didn't have an outlet to deal with and having enable parents didn't help. And also boys could also protected their abusers because it is harder for them to come out than girls out of shame and out of fear of being label as gay.

No, you should reexamine of worship a singer man who you never met and be more logical. Forget about whether you know that Micahel Jacob Hagen as you said you had a limited connection with him? Most people wouldn't talk about their sexual abuse to people who are related to them much less the ones they had a few encounters with. That is illogical. That is why he might not tell you a real deal because you are not his friend.

Even though I never met Michael or anyone connected to him, it is laughable how people continue to dismiss people who were there from his workers to the boys he hung around and even some of his family members who saw inappropriate that would got him long jail time if he wasn't the MJ. They backtracked not maybe because they lied because the fear of rich and powerful like Michael Jackson was.

IF Robson was violently raped EVERY NIGHT for 7 years, do you actually think that he wouldn’t remember that when he testified that Michael never even touched him inappropriately. Robson didn’t just claim touching, he claimed that he was raped at Neverland while his mother and sister were there.Are you really that gullible or mean-spirited just because you claim you are a victim? Why do you want to believe something that is so incredulous that it has no basis in reality? Think about the real victims, like yourself. Could you have withstood what Wade claimed and still walked around normally without being hospitalized or a family member taking note. I’m not trying to be mean, I just don’t understand how someone could give validity to this liar and his cohorts. Some things just take common sense, not book sense.

Once again I wish that Wade would have never testified in court and he was a fool for did that even if he felt he might did it to protect a friend, and he should had decline like others did.

But I am not going to judge how he testified and sometimes blackout could happened too it happened to me pretended like it never happened. When someone abused you, it is like your mind and body went total shock for a long time and therefore you would make irrational choices and tried to black things out. I picked that some of yall never been abused and so, therefore, it is hard to discuss this issue with someone who can't relate to. It is so common for people to lie to protect their abusers. Shrugs.

Instead of getting mad at Wade and James for expressed their sexual abuse, blame society make it harder for boys to come out and even cause them to have Stockholm Syndrome. Blame society for continued to use capitalism and other methods to distort and gaslight victims into silence and to show support and get the benefit of the doubt with the abusers. Blame the parents and the industry too.

alphastreet said:

I’m sorry to hear about some of the personal experiences posters have had. This thread as a whole is just sad in general To me it’s not about whether he did it or not, but the fact mj had poor boundaries with choosing friends generally speaking, and I think most would agree that it’s a relief that he is no longer around to get hurt some more I worry for Paris however...

Paris is in my thoughts too and she and Prince and BG were practically born into crazy shit that is out of their control. What is mess up is that some people want the victims to remain silent now he is dead but the memories and relived it don't go away with them just because MJ died as it just once again it is another attempt to side with the abuser.

But thanks for your support.

ladygirl99 said:

PatrickS77 said:

How convenient of you or anyone to use the behaviour of some abuse victims to explain away all the actions of those 3 guys that totally screw up their abuse stories. You should take off your abuse colored glasses and look at things the way they are.

Not that it matters, but actually, I have met Michael Jackson. As for Jakobshagen. Yes. I'm no friend of his. I didn't like him too much back in the day... as he was bragging too much about his meeting with Michael for my taste and felt something was off, when I talked to him some years ago (a phone call he put forth to me... he wanted to talk to me). But friends of mine were in closer contact with him (that's why that phone call came about). So really, I do know all I need to know about him, to know that he's a liar and will tell anything that helps him. For years, he embelished his "friendship" story with Michael, to publisha book about it and made his rounds in the press defending Michael, while selling fake autographs and memorabillia for thousands of Euros, encroaching his way into Ola Ray's circle, trying to get close to the Jackson family members and swindling his way into Forest Lawn cemetery, while selling his stories to tabloid media. 2 years ago his bluff was up. He was exposed for the fraud he is on german television. He got charged, sued and got judgements against himself to pay back money he swindled out of gullible fans, which he hasn't paid to this day. Now, after first denouncing Robson's allegations as lies, he's jumping on the #metoo and trash MJ bandwagon and tries to paint himself as a victim. And eager fools like you, who project their own shit on it, eat that shit up and use him and other frauds as proof that Michael Jackson molested children. It's sickening.

We dismiss these people because all of them had monetary reasons/motives and axes to grind and alwways made sure that whatever they had to tell made them money first. Supposed justice or protection of children never was of any concern to any of them. Even the one family member, who said she saw cheques.

[Edited 1/27/19 15:00pm]

So you determined that you met Michael like once or twice that you pretty much know all there is to know about him when it was proven that MJ had manipulated and lied to the media and to other people for years from his plastic surgeries? So I suppose to believe your accounts about your met with Michael Jackson but you are going to proclaim anyone who spent more time with MJ than you ever wish for and expressed their concerns about what they saw is a liar?

Yet people who knew Michael said the years they saw and worked with Michael Jackson, they saw some inappropriate things I am not talking about just Wade and James. If you continue to idolize MJ then fine and you are entitle to that but is laughable that you continue to call anyone that worked for him said something negative or against your fantasy narrative is a liar and money hungry and greed. But why not the same claim for MJ and his handlers who paid off people into silence?

Forget about the credibility issue with Wade and James for a minute and I don't know if they are telling the truth as I wasn't there and neither you were too and so we both agree to disagree so grow up but sexual abuse is a complicated issue and it should be discussed by the experts.

But you don't think it is odd of an adult man confessed it was nothing wrong share the same bed with underage kids? Michael admitted this himself.

And also this is Prince site. Some of us don't kiss MJ asses on here if you want fans to worship MJ that is why his forums exist first. If you don't like people question your idol and into blind idolization, you are more than welcome to go to an MJ forum.

I don't give a shit what silly names you call me but I personally think it is disturbing of adults sharing the same bed with underage children that are not theirs. I blame the parents too.

Hey that is just me and a couple others on this thread.

Dont't come in here twisting my words. You said that I defend a man I never met, to which I corrected you and said that I actually have met him, but that it doesn't matter. I'm defending him simply based on what I know about him and what I know about the case and these so called "victims" and the people who claim to have "seen" something. None of them are pure, clearcut or believable. All of them are shady, have done shady things, only cared about their own interest, not giving a damn about these alleged "poor victims" and children in general. So none of this is "blind idolization". Given the quality (or lack thereof) of all the people involved, you can have doubt in Michael at best. Anyone who buys the bs we have been fed at face value is a total brainless fool. Michael is not an ordinary man. That is the root of all this. If some things wouldn't be perceived as odd by some, these claims never would have come in and taken hold in the first place. Also if you hold a settlement against him (a settlement which I have said times and times before, didn't come out of his own pocket), you also have to hold it against the "victim", who went for the money first and accepted that, not giving a damn that a supposed child abuser is out there. And yes, if someone accuses someone of something, I do have to look at that person's credibility. There is no way around that.

And really, it's none of your business on which forums I do spend my time. This is a music forum and that's why I'm here.

ladygirl99 said:

PeteSilas said:

so what would it take to convince me? if bill cosby numbers come out, that would help, also, jordy chandler coming fully out to address it would help, harder proof like pics or video would do it, outside of that i'm not satisfied at all with what these guys are saying and i still can't believe MJ was so stupid as to get into that kind of mess. if he wanted to do that, he had the resources to keep it quiet like many child molestors have and do. Maybe it's true what some say, that Michael really did go mad. no rhyme or reason otherwise. either way, i'm a fan and if i'm ever convinced he did it, i'd still be a fan. you add up all the good and all the bad he may have done, the good far outweighs the bad any way you cut it. saved lives, given careers, built hospitals on and on and on and on.

Or his sister Lilly. She stated she saw some thing that but won't say it because of MJ's fans. Same goes for Mac Culkin.

I agree I wish Jordy would come out for a newer statement and I understand his older testimony is out there but this is country of short term memory. But I think James Safechuck people would listen to more because he never testified in the 2005 trial, he only provided a statement during the 1993 Jordan case and he said years too that MJ didn't harm him before I guess he came to his terms. I wished Wade Robson never testified and would have declined to testify.

I am not here trying to make people stop listening to his music and I defended MJ (even though I told people I was more of a Janet fan as I found her to be relatable) but since the Metoo movement and since I read more books and documents about this, I doubt his innocence and we agreed to disagreed. I think it is weird how some people justified of MJ (and the man admitted himself) sharing the same bed with children that weren't his.

You are making stuff up. Lily never insinuated anything in that direction. Didn't she testify in the trial like Joy Robson? Mac Culkin was ADAMANT nothing ever happened to him. He was very insistent on that so you are takig things out of your ass.

Safechuck was interviewed by auhorities in 2005 and said nothig sexual happened though he didn't testify. He wss intensily pressured to say anythig negative about michael. He didn't. Wade Robson testified and was cross-examined by Ron Zonen who was merciless to him and he never backed down. Up until 2012, Robson wss giving interviews praising Michael to the heavens. His tune only changed after being snubbed for the Cirque du Soleil shows.

PatrickS77 said:

ladygirl99 said:

So you determined that you met Michael like once or twice that you pretty much know all there is to know about him when it was proven that MJ had manipulated and lied to the media and to other people for years from his plastic surgeries? So I suppose to believe your accounts about your met with Michael Jackson but you are going to proclaim anyone who spent more time with MJ than you ever wish for and expressed their concerns about what they saw is a liar?

Yet people who knew Michael said the years they saw and worked with Michael Jackson, they saw some inappropriate things I am not talking about just Wade and James. If you continue to idolize MJ then fine and you are entitle to that but is laughable that you continue to call anyone that worked for him said something negative or against your fantasy narrative is a liar and money hungry and greed. But why not the same claim for MJ and his handlers who paid off people into silence?

Forget about the credibility issue with Wade and James for a minute and I don't know if they are telling the truth as I wasn't there and neither you were too and so we both agree to disagree so grow up but sexual abuse is a complicated issue and it should be discussed by the experts.

But you don't think it is odd of an adult man confessed it was nothing wrong share the same bed with underage kids? Michael admitted this himself.

And also this is Prince site. Some of us don't kiss MJ asses on here if you want fans to worship MJ that is why his forums exist first. If you don't like people question your idol and into blind idolization, you are more than welcome to go to an MJ forum.

I don't give a shit what silly names you call me but I personally think it is disturbing of adults sharing the same bed with underage children that are not theirs. I blame the parents too.

Hey that is just me and a couple others on this thread.

Dont't come in here twisting my words. You said that I defend a man I never met, to which I corrected you and said that I actually have met him, but that it doesn't matter. I'm defending him simply based on what I know about him and what I know about the case and these so called "victims" and the people who claim to have "seen" something. None of them are pure, clearcut or believable. All of them are shady, have done shady things, only cared about their own interest, not giving a damn about these alleged "poor victims" and children in general. So none of this is "blind idolization". Given the quality (or lack thereof) of all the people involved, you can have doubt in Michael at best. Anyone who buys the bs we have been fed at face value is a total brainless fool. Michael is not an ordinary man. That is the root of all this. If some things wouldn't be perceived as odd by some, these claims never would have come in and taken hold in the first place. Also if you hold a settlement against him (a settlement which I have said times and times before, didn't come out of his own pocket), you also have to hold it against the "victim", who went for the money first and accepted that, not giving a damn that a supposed child abuser is out there. And yes, if someone accuses someone of something, I do have to look at that person's credibility. There is no way around that.

And really, it's none of your business on which forums I do spend my time. This is a music forum and that's why I'm here.

And I believed and come to terms that Michael Jackson is a child molester, yes talent, due to the fact I don't dismiss everyone who worked and met Michael Jackson is shady all because they saw some misconduct and shattered your perfect picture of him. He was a trouble and damage dude so grow up and just agree to disagree. We live in the real world and you can't control people's thoughts and perceptions. Last time I check, no one is taking away your rights from listening or continue to defend MJ that is what you can control. What you can't control is people's opinions about MJ being an abuser. And name calling and acting crazy toward other posters isn't going to change it.

And also I don't give a crap what you do as I have better things to do than policing strangers site visits. I am saying in my 20 years been a Prince org member, folks don't kiss MJ's asses on this site or he is not exempt from criticism just because he perceived as childlike or being a superstar. I know it is a music forum, duh, but MJ fans tend to treat this forum like an MJ typical forum and gets upset when some of the behavior he did was expressed as unacceptable and bizarre and that is not how it works here or in real life, not everyone is going to think MJ is innocent. I had been in MJ forums in the past if you criticized or questioned MJ you get banned.

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

ladygirl99 said:

Or his sister Lilly. She stated she saw some thing that but won't say it because of MJ's fans. Same goes for Mac Culkin.

I agree I wish Jordy would come out for a newer statement and I understand his older testimony is out there but this is country of short term memory. But I think James Safechuck people would listen to more because he never testified in the 2005 trial, he only provided a statement during the 1993 Jordan case and he said years too that MJ didn't harm him before I guess he came to his terms. I wished Wade Robson never testified and would have declined to testify.

I am not here trying to make people stop listening to his music and I defended MJ (even though I told people I was more of a Janet fan as I found her to be relatable) but since the Metoo movement and since I read more books and documents about this, I doubt his innocence and we agreed to disagreed. I think it is weird how some people justified of MJ (and the man admitted himself) sharing the same bed with children that weren't his.

You are making stuff up. Lily never insinuated anything in that direction. Didn't she testify in the trial like Joy Robson? Mac Culkin was ADAMANT nothing ever happened to him. He was very insistent on that so you are takig things out of your ass.

Safechuck was interviewed by auhorities in 2005 and said nothig sexual happened though he didn't testify. He wss intensily pressured to say anythig negative about michael. He didn't. Wade Robson testified and was cross-examined by Ron Zonen who was merciless to him and he never backed down. Up until 2012, Robson wss giving interviews praising Michael to the heavens. His tune only changed after being snubbed for the Cirque du Soleil shows.

I am going by the UK news sites I read so Google is your friend and stop being lazy the info is out there. Lily didn't want to testify for Wade when he (and Safechuck) had that lawsuit going and their legal team originally wanted Jordy to help but he was nowhere to be found so they contacted Lily. She called MJ fans crazy and they made threats against her family over the years so that was why she asked the judge not to let her testify and she attached emails of the threats she got. She might had something to say but she was younger than Jordy so who knows but she refused to help because of the threat from psychos. I don't blame her one bit as I am witnessed myself on this thread.

And also Mac Culkin did stated he and his brother shared a bed with MJ and also MC stated throughout and on his podcasts he is going to keep his details with MJ (along with Paris) private so let's leave it that.

Also defended a public persona of Michael Jackson where it is proven many times it is just an image is a very pathetic move to people who never met the man and makes them a weirdo.

[Edited 1/29/19 2:17am]

EmmaMcG said:

Unless there is photographic or video evidence then none of us can say for sure whether he was guilty or not. I personally don't believe that he was a child molester. I think he possibly had something wrong with him, mentally, but I have yet to see evidence of any crime. But the fact is, guilty or not, the man is dead. These kinds of documentaries and allegations will have no impact on him whatsoever. The only ones affected by them are his children. Who are innocent in all of this. Let's not forget that they were all quite young when he died. And even though he's not their biological father, he raised them. He was still their father. So I think the people making these documentaries need to think about the consequences of what they're doing. Even if they believe wholeheartedly that Michael Jackson was a child molester, is it worth adding to his children's problems by bringing it up 10 years after he died? They're not doing it to punish Michael Jackson because he's already dead. Like I said, the only ones to suffer are his children.

True with mainly the first few sentences.

It is not fair either that alleged sex victims is being lectured to censor their expressions but not the abusers and this is more than just MJ. The knowledge about MJ was already there before the children was and they pretty much were born into a mess. Paris does modelling and she is connected to Hollywood don't be surprised she got the word about MJ before Wade and James with the lawsuit and now documentary.

I do understand their pain but they are adults now at least Paris and Prince is and someday they are going to have a lot of responsibilities of running the empire and unfortunately the allegations are going to follow even if Wade and James remained mute and as them being adults they had to embrace themselves and show strength. It is society at fault. How can this be fixed? Staying silence just fear of offending others is being victimization all over the again is not the answer.

I also hope Wade and James Safechuck would show more efforts of doing work for sexual victims instead of constantly latching onto MJ and what are their plans? I know Wade said he wanted to be the voice but he should also show some actions too because already people are saying he is doing this for money, etc.

Laygirl, did you honestly believe MJ would choose Wade as his first witness in the trial if he had been abused? Wade sang michael's praises well into his thirties and only changed his tune when he was snubbed out of the Cirque du Solleil shows. Wade was cross-examined by a group of lawyers/prosecutors with blood coming out of their eyes, grilling him and he never backed down, never hesitated in saying he had not been molested . Durig he time of his supposed mental breakdown- during the time he claims he realized he had been molested, in 2012- he was still giving interviews praising Michael. Besides, even if his story had credibility he should have said it when Michael was alive and could defend himself. But he is dead meaning Wade will never have to prove his claims or be counter-argued and have his story disected. It's an act of cowardice, not courage. Now that the other person can't sue you for defamation and can't take you to court so you have to prove your claims and back them down with evidence, it's easy to spout whatever you want.

[Edited 1/29/19 2:49am]

PeteSilas said:

didn't know the man, was only a fan, like you are I assume. but what we've seen him do, even after having nearly lost his career once shows something ain't right. watching the bashir docu where he's holding hands with the kid, it's obvious he didn't learn his lesson, what pisses me off is that no one around him could see that bashir was setting him up. I don't get that, if he had caring people around him they should have seen it coming. I feel bad for Mike, I really do, in any case. What a horrible life with some great achievements. It took a long time getting over his death, a long time. Prince isn't much different for me but i kinda got used to losing icons by the time Prince died so it didn't skew reality the same way for me.

Free2BMe said:

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

I saw someone else mention something along the lines of the "post death glow" where people took it a bit easier on MJ in the immediate aftermath. I don't really remember that (I'm in the UK), but I do remember thinking reaction to his death was quite muted considering how big of a star he was. Even more so when held in comparison to the huge reaction there was to Prince's death. I put it down to some of the stuff MJ said and got up to away from his music career, and maybe it was a bit more unexpected with Prince.

We were at Glasto for both and I don't remember there being much in the way of tribute to MJ, maybe because it happened while the festival was already on so it was all last minute ... but there was Prince stuff everywhere when he passed. Speaking to people at both there was a sense with MJ that people still weren't entirely comfortable with holding him aloft and celebrating him.

[Edited 1/29/19 4:58am]

EmmaMcG said:

DaveT said:

tsLetoyaBaby said:

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

Laygirl, did you honestly believe MJ would choose Wade as his first witness in the trial if he had been abused? Wade sang michael's praises well into his thirties and only changed his tune when he was snubbed out of the Cirque du Solleil shows. Wade was cross-examined by a group of lawyers/prosecutors with blood coming out of their eyes, grilling him and he never backed down, never hesitated in saying he had not been molested . Durig he time of his supposed mental breakdown- during the time he claims he realized he had been molested, in 2012- he was still giving interviews praising Michael. Besides, even if his story had credibility he should have said it when Michael was alive and could defend himself. But he is dead meaning Wade will never have to prove his claims or be counter-argued and have his story disected. It's an act of cowardice, not courage. Now that the other person can't sue you for defamation and can't take you to court so you have to prove your claims and back them down with evidence, it's easy to spout whatever you want.

[Edited 1/29/19 2:49am]

Even though Wade hadn't been a perfect victim, I still believe him and James and also I read Jordan's testimony and there are similarities about the interaction with Michael and how inappropriate he was.

There are people who saw Michael Jackson. Employees and certain relatives too said how MJ disappeared days at a time with mainly boys alone and the bed sharing.

These people interacted with Michael throughout their lives and if they said the similar about what they saw it is a smoke there is a fire. I think it is best for people to research and draw their own conclusions.

I know people are so badly wanted to believe the public persona but we can't continue to dismiss every person who were bothered what they saw as a liar and money hungry because it doesn't fit the picture perfect narrative.

ladygirl99 said:

Even though Wade hadn't been a perfect victim, I still believe him and James and also I read Jordan's testimony and there are similarities about the interaction with Michael and how inappropriate he was.

There are people who saw Michael Jackson. Employees and certain relatives too said how MJ disappeared days at a time with mainly boys alone and the bed sharing.

These people interacted with Michael throughout their lives and if they said the similar about what they saw it is a smoke there is a fire. I think it is best for people to research and draw their own conclusions.

I know people are so badly wanted to believe the public persona but we can't continue to dismiss every person who were bothered what they saw as a liar and money hungry because it doesn't fit the picture perfect narrative.

I'm no MJ fanboy but it's a fairly obvious idea to use Jordan's testimony as the basis for your own accusations.

I agree that it is best for people to research and draw their own conclusions. I think he is innocent of these crimes (if, as I said earlier, "guilty" of some very inappropriate behaviour) but some people will never, ever be convinced so what can you do.

As for what "people" want to believe, I know that people around my age and older over here in UK/Ireland were treated to 10-15 years of tabloid wacko jacko stories and I know many who have never believed he was innocent and have been gleefully grabbing onto this film as indisputable proof to what they knew all along.

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

DaveT said:

I saw someone else mention something along the lines of the "post death glow" where people took it a bit easier on MJ in the immediate aftermath. I don't really remember that (I'm in the UK), but I do remember thinking reaction to his death was quite muted considering how big of a star he was. Even more so when held in comparison to the huge reaction there was to Prince's death. I put it down to some of the stuff he said and got up to away from his music career.

We were at Glasto for both and I don't remember there being much in the way of tribute to MJ, maybe because it happened while the festival was already on so it was all last minute ... but there was Prince stuff everywhere when he passed. Speaking to people at both there was a sense with MJ that people still weren't entirely comfortable with holding him aloft and celebrating him.

Are you the first person inhabiting Mars or something? MJ's death crashed the internet which is to say, Planet Earth stopped. Nothing else was talked about for two weeks. He had been the most famous person in the world for a good two decades and everyone was shocked. The world revolved around him in the aftermath. That is not to say everybody embraced him. No, the child molestation allegations caused a lot of rejection and many refused to tribute him, includig music acts. But ALL were in a surreal state. Prince was more celebrated in the sense that there were no barriers to do so since there was no "But he was accused of pedophilia" or "What if it was true?". But in terms of impact there was no comparison. MJ's death is one of those "where were you when" moments. Prince didn't inhabit that rarified level of fame. In Europe there are plenty of people who don't know Prince. I didn't know him until I was 15, my parents don't know him and some of my friends also don't. Michael was known even by those North Korean concentration camp inmates that live their entirely life there. [Edited 1/29/19 5:08am]

Easy up on the sarcasm, I'm just telling you how it was in my little part of the UK

Yes it was on the news where we were and the newspapers, but the radio we had on didn't seem to play much of his music, barely anyone I spoke to wanted to discuss it, people didn't talk about it in my large office, I don't recall many tribute programs on, etc ... Planet Earth might have stopped for you, but in the south-east UK it was business as usual.

DaveT said:

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

DaveT said:

Easy up on the sarcasm, I'm just telling you how it was in my little part of the UK

Yes it was on the news where we were and the newspapers, but the radio we had on didn't seem to play much of his music, barely anyone I spoke to wanted to discuss it, people didn't talk about it in my large office, I don't recall many tribute programs on, etc ... Planet Earth might have stopped for you, but in the south-east UK it was business as usual.

Riiiiight.I'm a Prince fan as well but denying the impact of the death of a man who had been the most famous human being in the world is, oh well, forget it. PS- I'm not being sarcastic and I'm sorry if it sounds like I am. It's just my particular ssense of humor I suppose and I can guarantee you I mean no disrespect. Just look at my nickname!

No harm, no foul (wasn't denying the impact, as I know it was a huge deal elsehwere ... it was just less of a big deal than I was expecting it to be in the circles I run in, and at Glastonbury) hugs all round!

Must admit, if nothing else I'm inspired to blow the dust off my MJ CDs ... its been too long!

ladygirl99 said:

https://www.forbes.com/si...b5823640fa