PeteSilas said:

Its been interesting reading through this thread. I've only taken a cursory interest in the latter stages of MJ's life and career so its been eye opening reading through it all.

One thing I noticed, there is a lot of "this is true" and "that's lies" on various posts. Seems to me the only person that would actually know the truth of all this is MJ.

Given how complicated this has now gotten, I'm not even going to begin to speculate what happened and what didn't, but one thing I do know is that MJ didn't help his cause with some of his actions ... dangling a baby from a balcony, bouncing a kid on his lap at an award show, admitting in interviews that he shared his bed with children that weren't his. Even if the rest of it was all lies I still find some of the behaviour very uncomfortable.

DaveT said:

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

DaveT said:

Its been interesting reading through this thread. I've only taken a cursory interest in the latter stages of MJ's life and career so its been eye opening reading through it all.

One thing I noticed, there is a lot of "this is true" and "that's lies" on various posts. Seems to me the only person that would actually know the truth of all this is MJ.

Given how complicated this has now gotten, I'm not even going to begin to speculate what happened and what didn't, but one thing I do know is that MJ didn't help his cause with some of his actions ... dangling a baby from a balcony, bouncing a kid on his lap at an award show, admitting in interviews that he shared his bed with children that weren't his. Even if the rest of it was all lies I still find some of the behaviour very uncomfortable.

MJ was insane but he was not a pedophile IMO. You are describing insanity, attitudes of a man who needed serious help but never had the balls to get it. But being a criminal is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Maybe ... maybe not; as I said, the only person that knows for sure is MJ. All anyone else can do is speculate.

As for the insanity part, agreed ... his actions weren't those of a rational person. That he was allowed to get away with some of the stuff he did goes to show how messed up the situation around him was. He should've been getting help rather than being allowed to do whatever he wanted; he clearly wasn't strong enough or willing to get help and those around him just bowed down to it.

'Tis sad really. I try not to let it cloud my judgment when I listen to his music but its difficult. I don't reach for his CDs anywhere near as much as I would have done if he hadn't have done some of the stuff he did.

DaveT said:

As for the insanity part, agreed ... his actions weren't those of a rational person. That he was allowed to get away with some of the stuff he did goes to show how messed up the situation around him was. He should've been getting help rather

Getting help?? Getting help for what? For being unconventional? For doing things the way he saw fit? Getting help so people who don't have a clue about his reality have less reason to (mis)judge him? Getting help to be the way other judgemental people want him to be?? I don't quite get this "getting help" part. Assuming these acusers are lying and knowing what I know, I have every reason to believe they are, he didn't hurt anyone.

No one knows or can say positively, what Michael Jackson did or didn't do, unless they were there themselves to witness whatever happened! Only Michael Jackson and those involved knows what actually happened, and only they know who is telling the truth! Any fan that insists that Michael Jackson did nothing and is 100% innocent, doesn't know what they talking about, and knows nothing, because they weren't there! Just because you're some fanatic that loved the man and his music, does not mean you knew everything about him! Unless you were a close personal friend or relative, directly involved in every aspect of Michael Jackson's life, then you know nothing about Michael Jackson the man, or who he really was! So you can go off the deep end, defending him in anger, calling others names, attacking them because they don't agree with who you think Michael was, just because you're some fan that think you knew him, when in reality, you know nothing about him personally at all, unless you were a part of his life personally and intimately!

PatrickS77 said:

DaveT said:

As for the insanity part, agreed ... his actions weren't those of a rational person. That he was allowed to get away with some of the stuff he did goes to show how messed up the situation around him was. He should've been getting help rather

Getting help?? Getting help for what? For being unconventional? For doing things the way he saw fit? Getting help so people who don't have a clue about his reality have less reason to (mis)judge him? Getting help to be the way other judgemental people want him to be?? I don't quite get this "getting help" part. Assuming these acusers are lying and knowing what I know, I have every reason to believe they are, he didn't hurt anyone.

All manner of things. Getting help and advice on raising a child for one thing ... his own childhood was hardly conventional, which I'm assuming led to some of his less than stellar decisions like dangling a newborn baby off of a balcony. That's not "unconventional", that's just dangerous.

Getting some sensible legal advice that's its probably not good to be sharing your bed with other people's children. Leaving aside the moral question that raises and giving him the benefit of the doubt that it was purely for innocent reasons, its just not a common sense thing to do when you have people out there who could potentially take you for a large pay-day on the basis of false allegations, let alone what it would do for your legacy and career even with the allegations being wholly false. Again, that's not so much "unconventional" as it is stupid.

You'd gamble your whole career and financial livelihood just for the sake of having a couple of kids stay in your room for a few nights? Have them round to Neverland to treat by all means but let them crash in the guesthouse or another bedroom. That's not a logical choice and he needed the help of someone more level headed to point out the risks.

And the thing that does p*ss me off about this is how naive and clueless MJ was (acted?). I can just about grant that he chose to have these sleepovers in an innocent, recreate-my-childhood to treat the kids way ... but I don't believe this whole "What? People are shocked by this? Really? I don't get it, why?". Come on dude, no one is that naive, you must have suspected you'd get heat for this. You don't have to agree with the heat, but you have to understand why it came. He wasn't that ignorant in the ways of the world; look at some fo the songs he wrote like Dirty Diana, In The Closet, Superfly Sister ...

oceanblue said:

No one knows or can say positively, what Michael Jackson did or didn't do, unless they were there themselves to witness whatever happened! Only Michael Jackson and those involved knows what actually happened, and only they know who is telling the truth! Any fan that insists that Michael Jackson did nothing and is 100% innocent, doesn't know what they talking about, and knows nothing, because they weren't there! Just because you're some fanatic that loved the man and his music, does not mean you knew everything about him! Unless you were a close personal friend or relative, directly involved in every aspect of Michael Jackson's life, then you know nothing about Michael Jackson the man, or who he really was! So you can go off the deep end, defending him in anger, calling others names, attacking them because they don't agree with who you think Michael was, just because you're some fan that think you knew him, when in reality, you know nothing about him personally at all, unless you were a part of his life personally and intimately!

Right. But the people on the other spectrum are allowed to call him child molestor, pedophile and rapist. People, who usually know less than the average fan. People who do not know the things that make the accounts and allegations of the "victims" so damn doubtful, if not outright impossible.

DaveT said:

All manner of things. Getting help and advice on raising a child for one thing ... his own childhood was hardly conventional, which I'm assuming led to some of his less than stellar decisions like dangling a newborn baby off of a balcony. That's not "unconventional", that's just dangerous.

Getting some sensible legal advice that's its probably not good to be sharing your bed with other people's children. Leaving aside the moral question that raises and giving him the benefit of the doubt that it was purely for innocent reasons, its just not a common sense thing to do when you have people out there who could potentially take you for a large pay-day on the basis of false allegations, let alone what it would do for your legacy and career even with the allegations being wholly false. Again, that's not so much "unconventional" as it is stupid.

You'd gamble your whole career and financial livelihood just for the sake of having a couple of kids stay in your room for a few nights? Have them round to Neverland to treat by all means but let them crash in the guesthouse or another bedroom. That's not a logical choice and he needed the help of someone more level headed to point out the risks.

And the thing that does p*ss me off about this is how naive and clueless MJ was (acted?). I can just about grant that he chose to have these sleepovers in an innocent, recreate-my-childhood to treat the kids way ... but I don't believe this whole "What? People are shocked by this? Really? I don't get it, why?". Come on dude, no one is that naive, you must have suspected you'd get heat for this. You don't have to agree with the heat, but you have to understand why it came. He wasn't that ignorant in the ways of the world; look at some fo the songs he wrote like Dirty Diana, In The Closet, Superfly Sister ...

Ah. Like fathers, who throw their children in the air and catch them? Or not. Yes. That Berlin incident was stupid. But he hardly was the first and certainly not the last father (or parent) who did a stupid thing with their kid.

I said it before and I say it again. What was he supposed to do?? Live his life in fear, in solitary, because someone could accuse him of something. He had nothing to hide, so that's why he was open about these things.

PatrickS77 said:

DaveT said:

All manner of things. Getting help and advice on raising a child for one thing ... his own childhood was hardly conventional, which I'm assuming led to some of his less than stellar decisions like dangling a newborn baby off of a balcony. That's not "unconventional", that's just dangerous.

Getting some sensible legal advice that's its probably not good to be sharing your bed with other people's children. Leaving aside the moral question that raises and giving him the benefit of the doubt that it was purely for innocent reasons, its just not a common sense thing to do when you have people out there who could potentially take you for a large pay-day on the basis of false allegations, let alone what it would do for your legacy and career even with the allegations being wholly false. Again, that's not so much "unconventional" as it is stupid.

You'd gamble your whole career and financial livelihood just for the sake of having a couple of kids stay in your room for a few nights? Have them round to Neverland to treat by all means but let them crash in the guesthouse or another bedroom. That's not a logical choice and he needed the help of someone more level headed to point out the risks.

And the thing that does p*ss me off about this is how naive and clueless MJ was (acted?). I can just about grant that he chose to have these sleepovers in an innocent, recreate-my-childhood to treat the kids way ... but I don't believe this whole "What? People are shocked by this? Really? I don't get it, why?". Come on dude, no one is that naive, you must have suspected you'd get heat for this. You don't have to agree with the heat, but you have to understand why it came. He wasn't that ignorant in the ways of the world; look at some fo the songs he wrote like Dirty Diana, In The Closet, Superfly Sister ...

Ah. Like fathers, who throw their children in the air and catch them? Or not. Yes. That Berlin incident was stupid. But he hardly was the first and certainly not the last father (or parent) who did a stupid thing with their kid.

I said it before and I say it again. What was he supposed to do?? Live his life in fear, in solitary, because someone could accuse him of something. He had nothing to hide, so that's why he was open about these things.

Oh, come on ... you think holding a wriggling baby over a fifty foot baloncy is the same as a father having a little throw and catch with their child? And no, I don't know any father who has deliberately held their baby over a balcony.

He was supposed to make smarter choices ... and if he was going to make unwise choices, not bitch about it when it blew up in his face. As I said, it was naive in the extreme to think he could share a bed with other people's kids and not get flack for it. How many men do you know who bed other people's kids?

And its not a case of living "in solitary" ... I don't sleep with other people's kids and I have a very full life with great relationships with family, wife, friends etc.

DaveT said:

DaveT said:

How many men do you know who bed other people's kids?

How many men do you know who attract other people's kids?? How many kids do you know who want to spend time with other men?

I'm not saying it was wise or is normal. I'm just pointing out it's a unique situation.

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

He also had an unhealthy, obsessive fascination with children. That would have to be addressed. I'm sure he didn't molest those kids. The only one I'm not so sure about is Chandler but a pedophile, especially one with a lot of access to children, does not molest only one kid in a lifetime. Still, there are things I didn't understand: why did he unofficially adopt Bhatti when he already had children of his own? What did he want from the boy? Also, he had body dysmorphic disorder and a lot of internal turmoil and self-hatred stemming from his father insulting his looks constantly. The reason? Joe was jealous of his son. He wanted to be the star and couldn't cope with MJ being the center of attention, afraid he would roll out of his thumb, taking away his glory. MJ had to come to terms with his heartless childhood abuse and become a survivor rather than a victim. He also needed someone to put a bit of common sense in his head. Does a sane person walk on the streets with a surgical mask? Like, WTF?

Go to Japan and you see thousands of people roaming the streets with surgical masks. For him it was a way to have some kind of privacy and deter paparazzi.

"Unofficially adopt". Whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Michael took an interest in the kid, befriended him and the "kid" is still great friends with the family and Michael's kids. No talk of being molested. So if he molested the other/any kids, why not him?

"body dismorphic order". That is an assumption on your part. No fact. And it's not really for you to decide whether he had an "unhealthy, obsessive fascination with children".

[Edited 1/28/19 8:46am]

PatrickS77 said:

DaveT said:

How many men do you know who bed other people's kids?

How many men do you know who attract other people's kids?? How many kids do you know who want to spend time with other men?

I'm not saying it was wise or is normal. I'm just pointing out it's a unique situation.

... which is exactly my point, very unique and unusual. Hence why I use to get annoyed when MJ spoke like it was an everyday, normal, nothing-to-see-here occurance.

I'd be like "christ man, at least acknowledge that this isn't the norm if you want to have a fighting chance of having people believe this was a wholly innocent thing". But I remember that Martin Bashir interview when he asked him how people might react if he slept with some of his own daughters friends and MJ just said "That's fine" ... total facepalm moment for me.

Sure, ok, its an innocent thing, its non-sexual, that's fine. But don't act like its not going to raise eyebrows, like people shouldn't look at that scenario and say "Errr, you're doing what now?!"

PatrickS77 said:

I suppose i'll have to watch this doc. I've read enough about his life and the original court cases to believe MJ was innocent.

I'd be of the opinion that his interactions with children were highly inappropriate, but I'd also argue his interactions with adults were highly inappropriate; he really seemed to live in his own world and it was damaging to most people who came into his orbit. But child abuse, nah. What i'm hearing about this film is that it's the case for the prosecution with no defence or cross-examination.

Something I'm curious about, but don't seem to have ever known to be questioned or addressed.....does anyone think that Michael Jackson was ever abused sexually as a child? I mean, considering that he started out as a very young boy in show business, I was wondering if perhaps he was taken advantage of and abused sexually by someone in the business, because I think we all know that there are many evils and predators in that industry, and that many kids have been abused sexually and taken advantage of, so I was just wondering if perhaps anyone think that it could have happened to Michael, as a young boy?

[Edited 1/28/19 10:50am]

The MJ cult continues.

Great artist, messed up human being until the end.

Did he have a serious, long-standing personality disorder of some sort? Most likely imo.

Was he out of touch with 'normal' ways of behaviour and felt that he was above normal rules? To an extent yes, but he knew how others around him lived, so ...

Did his behaviour negatively impact on those around him, which he did not take responsibiiity for? I believe so. Look at all the unpaid depts he left behind.

Was he misguided, stubborn and lacking good judgement in his conduct with these kids? At times yes, it seems.

Was he more intelligent, savy and devious than many of his fans give him credit for? Probably. This also worked against him, as he was able to manipulate events in ways that weren't always in his best interests.

Did he get his own way too much? Absolutely, to the ultimate cost of his life.

Was he lonely, confused, paranoid, spending most of his life living in fantasy and in fear of most 'real world' things away from music/ performing? Wouldn't be surprised.

Was he straight/ gay or what? Probably straight, considering the nature of certain photo periodicals and videos found in his personal quarters by police.

Was he a child molester? Most likely not. Two very thorough trials later and still no evidence or conviction. None of the claims against him have ever seemed to have real credibiity in the end.

Will the media 'leave him alone'? Not until he stops making them bucks.

IMO he desperately needed mental health assessment and treatment from honest, properly qualified professionals with no personal interest in him, his celebrity or money.

In the end, for me, the music is all that matters. . Now, where's 'Dangerous'? That's his best album imo and a work of art. .

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

The problem is that the shitstorm is just starting. When the doc debuts on HBO and Channel 4 for the entire population it's going to be an absolute scandal, 2005 trial proportions. Just now that I was back to being a fan...

like i said, i'm just surprised it took so long, but through the years, more and more people will come out, likely on both sides, hopefully we'll get closer to the truth than we are. Kinda missing the death honeymoon that we had, everyone, including the media, everyone was so shocked that they backed off on the salaciousness and many articles came out saying he'd been framed and many people who'd either lost interest totally or may have thought he was guilty seemed to make a turnaround. One thing i find strange is how his kids are never brought up to question, if he was that much of a monster, his kids wouldn't be safe either and by all accounts he was a loving, patient father. I know people can compartamentalize themselves but that's always struck me in mike's favor. Great but nutty father.

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

The problem is that the shitstorm is just starting. When the doc debuts on HBO and Channel 4 for the entire population it's going to be an absolute scandal, 2005 trial proportions. Just now that I was back to being a fan...

Or how about this:

Just ignore the whole thing.

He's dead now.

You can listen to the music and watch the videos with no outside influence from the media and it won't matter because he's dead now.

Remember how in love with Michael the world was when he died?

Now everyone can go to hating him again.

It's media manipulation.

Either you like him or you don't.

CynicKill said:

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

The problem is that the shitstorm is just starting. When the doc debuts on HBO and Channel 4 for the entire population it's going to be an absolute scandal, 2005 trial proportions. Just now that I was back to being a fan...

Or how about this:

Just ignore the whole thing.

He's dead now.

You can listen to the music and watch the videos with no outside influence from the media and it won't matter because he's dead now.

Remember how in love with Michael the world was when he died?

Now everyone can go to hating him again.

It's media manipulation.

Either you like him or you don't.

yup, Elvis and his legacy went through all of this years before, there will always be different sentiments. He did a lot of crazy things, blew out tv sets, shot guns indoors, threatened to assasinate people, became a dea agent, he even had some of the same wierd faults that mj had, they say he liked to hang with 13 year old girls but most insist nothing happened, "horseplay, not foreplay" history repeats itself in strange ways. He also bought poor people cadillacs because it made him and them feel good, bought his workers houses, gave medical/financial help to his friends and inspired millions of people. and like mike, he was the subject of silly rumours, gay rumours, paternity rumours, drug rumours before he started etc.., etc.., In my opinion he was a good man who got lost in fame, like mike, like many people. It ain't as easy as it looks folks.

PeteSilas said:

Here's a glowing tribute from a 30 something adult Wade Robson on Michael Jackson after he died:

http://www.reflectionsonthedance.com/Wade-Robson-Opus-Tribute-to-MJ.html

PatrickS77 said:

DaveT said:

As for the insanity part, agreed ... his actions weren't those of a rational person. That he was allowed to get away with some of the stuff he did goes to show how messed up the situation around him was. He should've been getting help rather

Getting help?? Getting help for what? For being unconventional? For doing things the way he saw fit? Getting help so people who don't have a clue about his reality have less reason to (mis)judge him? Getting help to be the way other judgemental people want him to be?? I don't quite get this "getting help" part. Assuming these acusers are lying and knowing what I know, I have every reason to believe they are, he didn't hurt anyone.

With all due respect, but this is what's pissing me off. I'm a huge MJ fan myself too, but even when I was 13 years old I knew that Mike needed some help because he did some things no mentally stable man would've done. And as Dave said, SOME of his actions didn't help his cause.

oceanblue said:

Something I'm curious about, but don't seem to have ever known to be questioned or addressed.....does anyone think that Michael Jackson was ever abused sexually as a child? I mean, considering that he started out as a very young boy in show business, I was wondering if perhaps he was taken advantage of and abused sexually by someone in the business, because I think we all know that there are many evils and predators in that industry, and that many kids have been abused sexually and taken advantage of, so I was just wondering if perhaps anyone think that it could have happened to Michael, as a young boy?

[Edited 1/28/19 10:50am]

I would not be at all surprised. Bob Jones lied a lot in his book but he said- and I believe this one- that when Latoya (or perhaps it was somebody else that I can't recall) said Joseph had allowed Michael to be sexually abused, MJ neither denied or confirmed it. He went mute. Knowing the complete lack of anything remotely linked to ethic and humanity on behalf of Joe "I'll drop you like a hot potatoe if you stop singin'" Jackson, I am somewhat inclined to believe that something weird was going on.

I've heard that too, i don't know what to think about that. even horrible parents would have to be pretty cold to do that, i don't know, maybe more people will come out to verify or deny.

ItsLetoyaBaby said:

oceanblue said:

Something I'm curious about, but don't seem to have ever known to be questioned or addressed.....does anyone think that Michael Jackson was ever abused sexually as a child? I mean, considering that he started out as a very young boy in show business, I was wondering if perhaps he was taken advantage of and abused sexually by someone in the business, because I think we all know that there are many evils and predators in that industry, and that many kids have been abused sexually and taken advantage of, so I was just wondering if perhaps anyone think that it could have happened to Michael, as a young boy?

[Edited 1/28/19 10:50am]

I would not be at all surprised. Bob Jones lied a lot in his book but he said- and I believe this one- that when Latoya (or perhaps it was somebody else that I can't recall) said Joseph had allowed Michael to be sexually abused, MJ neither denied or confirmed it. He went mute. Knowing the complete lack of anything remotely linked to ethic and humanity on behalf of Joe "I'll drop you like a hot potatoe if you stop singin'" Jackson, I am somewhat inclined to believe that something weird was going on.

oceanblue said: