mjscarousal said:

Scorp said:

yes, he had world tours that drew record attendance, but it happened at the expense of everything else that made him great......

while the hysteria overseas was taking place, there was an undercurrent that never wavored at the same time

by 1989, he had lost half his fanbase, that's why he never toured on the United States mainland ever again and focused exclusively on international prominence for he knew it would be easier to project his superficial image in the company of......

he knew that......

In the company of...what?

sigh

Scorp I know you have your opinions but I disagre. I think Michael focused on building his international fanbase, had UK singles and videos that were released in the UK exclusively that he was promoting as well. Michael could have easily sold out a stadium in America, trust and believe that. This statement is absurd. The UK media was not as harsh on Michael as the American media so it makes sense that Michael would want to tour in a location where he feels more respected.

If Michael had lost his American fans, why was he able to sell out stadiums in America during BAD despite the bad American media? Why was BAD one of the best selling tours in the 80's if he had lost half his fans?

that's not what I'm saying......

if u haven't read his autobio book MOONWALK edited Jackie Onassis......read what he said in his own words about what he expected to achieve with the BAD album...

not only did he expect BAD to outsell THRILLER, but he expected to sell twice as many copies.....that's right there in that book because I read it on numerous occassions when the book first came out

he expected BAD to sell 100 million copies....

what's ironic, based on his career trajectory to that point, he probably could have done it or to the point where BAD would have outsold THRILLER

BAD sold 16 million worldwide in the first 2 months of its release but by the beginning of 1988, sales stalled instantly

the PROBLEM was, BAD sold 50 percent LESS than THRILLER did.....that's when heads when to rollin....

manager.....fired..and fired immediately

producer......let go

he was not gone let that ride, even when his manager or producer wasn't the reason why what happened happened

the British press is the source that coined the term "wacko jacko"...that was not coined by american press

from 1988-1989, American press, especially when covering the Bad Tour...referred to MJ as "The Bad One"....

you're not getting what the chism of all this is....

I went to the BAD concert in my hometown in March of 1988......the concert was excellent

I saw him moonwalk from the very left side of the stage to the very right side of the stage w/out breaking stride....

the tours weren't the problem, it was the record sales

that's the telltale sign of where things truly stand.....

the reason why he didn't sell 100 million of BAD is the same reason why BAD sold half less than its predecessor even when BAD was the most anticipated follow up album of all time, even w/the record breaking solo tour...even when Pepsi's promotional machine out the yazoo...

the real reason why he lost half his fanbase here in America really had nothing to do with the press here America, be it good or bad press

it really had little to do with his music being played on this station or the other, commercial radio, top 40 radio, urban radio

the reason why he lost half his fanbase is because he lost 90-95% of his original fanbase that consisted primarily of black people, black people who grew up listening to Michael's music from 1969-1984.....he lost his foundation

I'm talking about people physically going to record stores and buying his records, and consistently over a period of time, not just when the album was first released...

and no press is going to take the time or be willing to acknowledge that, they will blame everything else under the sun

and MJ knew that too and that's why he sought exclusive pop presence overseas by the time the 90s hit

[Edited 8/30/14 17:59pm]

This is turning into another MJ thread

To some degree, I think Lionel Ritchie fell from grace for a long time, after he cheated on his wife. She beat him, senseless. It didn't help his career none, when he married his mistress.

As of right now, it's gotta be Robin Thicke. This time last year this cat had the number one song in the world! His new album has sold less than 25,000 copies! WTF?

thesoulbrother said:

As of right now, it's gotta be Robin Thicke. This time last year this cat had the number one song in the world! His new album has sold less than 25,000 copies! WTF?

this is what happens when u hijack the music of an all time luminary such as Marvin Gaye and try and take full credit for it.........

I haven't read through all the comments yet but I'm gonna say El Debarge. He was riding high, literally, and then crashed. He's made a few comebacks but seems to always get caught up again. It's a shame because he's an amazing singer who still mysteriously has his singing chops despite his drug use (crack). I wish him the best.

MickyDolenz said:

Singles wise, Ringo Starr initially was the most popular Beatle after they broke up. A few years later, the hits stopped and his label dropped him. But he started making a comeback in the 1980s playing Mr. Conductor. He later became sober and started the All Starr Tours.

.

The Bee Gees and KC & The Sunshine Band couldn't get a hit in the US after disco "died".

Well they did have one last hurrah

MotownSubdivision said:

I don't know how it was internationally but MJ being a tabloid star seemed more of an American thing. Overall, MJ is a curious one when it comes to this subject. He did experience a fall from grace and the accusations seriously damaged his career however despite being the media's favorite target, he still was quite successful. After the first accusation in 1993, his accomplishments were: -HIStory sold 20 million+ copies and though I do not know how much it actually sold at the time, it was enough to become the highest selling double album in history (no pun intended), a record it still holds over 19 years later and likely will keep. -Scream would go on to become another critically acclaimed work of his as well as serve as the inspiration for many a music video years later -The tour in the album's name went on to gross over $40 million albeit overseas -Blood on the Dancefloor sold enough to become the highest selling remix album of all time, once again a record that the album still holds today -Invincible while not the massive seller like his previous albums, was only a commercial failure because it wasn't as big of a commercial success as it could've been, still selling 13 million (once again, I don't know the sales of the time) -Sold out 5 shows in Madison Square Garden for the 30th Anniversary Special, the first show he would have in the US since the Bad Tour back in the late 80s Then after the second accusation in 2005, he sold out the O2 for This Is It in a matter of minutes. MJ was still very loved even after all the crap that was thrown his way of course not to the near universal levels of the 1980s up to the first allegation but his fans were much more plentiful than his haters. For that, I wouldn't say MJ experienced that great a fall from grace. It's amazing how successful he still was even after being accused of being a pedophile twice and all the other ridiculous things he portrayed in the public eye.

Well said. I still think they were after him because he owned all those publishing rights to so many huge (white) artists and a few black like Little Richard, whom he apparently sold back to Little Richard for $1.00. I think that alone with other exhibits of power MJ had behind the scenes made him a target for a lot of haters, bar none.

Scorp said:

thesoulbrother said:

As of right now, it's gotta be Robin Thicke. This time last year this cat had the number one song in the world! His new album has sold less than 25,000 copies! WTF?

this is what happens when u hijack the music of an all time luminary such as Marvin Gaye and try and take full credit for it.........

I was a fan of RT before he did that lawsuit against the Gaye estate....

SeventeenDayze said:

Scorp said:

this is what happens when u hijack the music of an all time luminary such as Marvin Gaye and try and take full credit for it.........

I was a fan of RT before he did that lawsuit against the Gaye estate....

I hear ya

Scorp said:

SeventeenDayze said:

I was a fan of RT before he did that lawsuit against the Gaye estate....

I hear ya

I wondered if it was just for publicity and all but you'd really be pushing it to file a lawsuit against the originator of the sound that you so blatantly copied. Nothing new under the sun I guess. RT has a colonial mind when it comes to music just like everyone else I suppose *cough* Justin Timberlake *cough*

LOL this thread reminds me of why I beccame a producer.

RE: MJ That whole promoting his weirdness and stuff, that's when the public lost him. Sure, Thriller was one of those once in a lifetime records, but he trailed off after that, you can't deny that. I've listened to the records, and they're just not as good. Honestly, even Thriller isn't as good as Off The Wall. Sorry, I don't make up the rules.

Beautifulstarr123 said:

To some degree, I think Lionel Ritchie fell from grace for a long time, after he cheated on his wife. She beat him, senseless. It didn't help his career none, when he married his mistress.

.....and THAT^ marriage ended in divorce as well!

Tuls101 said:

Love Mike but his ego after Thriller would ultimately be his downfall. It seems like prior to Bad it was mostly about making some great music. With Bad and subsequent albums it became about making something that would sell more than Or have the same impact as Thriller. That's one of the admirable things about Prince, he realized Purple Rain was a fluke that would probably never happen again. He could've cared less about selling more, he just continued creating whatever he wanted sales be damned. In turn, he created what many consider his true masterpiece, Sign O' The Times, which received better reviews than even PR.

It's true, especially the videos. Can't believe he filmed You Rock My World. His post-Thriller stuff does include some great songs like Smooth Criminal or Stranger In Moscow but he was really too focused on success, impact and ego...

SeventeenDayze said:

I haven't read through all the comments yet but I'm gonna say El Debarge. He was riding high, literally, and then crashed. He's made a few comebacks but seems to always get caught up again. It's a shame because he's an amazing singer who still mysteriously has his singing chops despite his drug use (crack). I wish him the best.

The downfall of El's siblings were far worse, especially the late Bobby Debarge of Switch.

iaminparties said:

ufoclub said:

Alanis Morisette?

Yeah she had that one mega album "Jagged Pill" some shit like that and fell off.Same can be said about Hootie and Blowfish who huge album was released same time period and then they fell off.

Alanis' credibility as a rocker was ruined as soon as some of her American fans & critics found out about her first 2 career albums BEFORE Jagged Little Pill. Musically, Alanis started out as basically the Debbie Gibson of Canada.

SeventeenDayze said:

Scorp said:

I hear ya

I wondered if it was just for publicity and all but you'd really be pushing it to file a lawsuit against the originator of the sound that you so blatantly copied. Nothing new under the sun I guess. RT has a colonial mind when it comes to music just like everyone else I suppose *cough* Justin Timberlake *cough*

good points

especially the point about him having a colonial mind

the main principle the pop ascension movement of the past quarter century has been based on

MotownSubdivision said:

I don't know how it was internationally but MJ being a tabloid star seemed more of an American thing. Overall, MJ is a curious one when it comes to this subject. He did experience a fall from grace and the accusations seriously damaged his career however despite being the media's favorite target, he still was quite successful. After the first accusation in 1993, his accomplishments were: -HIStory sold 20 million+ copies and though I do not know how much it actually sold at the time, it was enough to become the highest selling double album in history (no pun intended), a record it still holds over 19 years later and likely will keep. -Scream would go on to become another critically acclaimed work of his as well as serve as the inspiration for many a music video years later -The tour in the album's name went on to gross over $40 million albeit overseas -Blood on the Dancefloor sold enough to become the highest selling remix album of all time, once again a record that the album still holds today -Invincible while not the massive seller like his previous albums, was only a commercial failure because it wasn't as big of a commercial success as it could've been, still selling 13 million (once again, I don't know the sales of the time) -Sold out 5 shows in Madison Square Garden for the 30th Anniversary Special, the first show he would have in the US since the Bad Tour back in the late 80s Then after the second accusation in 2005, he sold out the O2 for This Is It in a matter of minutes. MJ was still very loved even after all the crap that was thrown his way of course not to the near universal levels of the 1980s up to the first allegation but his fans were much more plentiful than his haters. For that, I wouldn't say MJ experienced that great a fall from grace. It's amazing how successful he still was even after being accused of being a pedophile twice and all the other ridiculous things he portrayed in the public eye.

This! Considering all the shit MJ had to endure, it's amazing he still had the career he had...History, Blood and even Invincible were huge sellers and he was still very much respected for his work and talent...so, fall from grace? Probably..but he was still a huge, huge star.

TonyVanDam said:

I don't think anyone had it worse than Milli Vanilli (Rob & Fab) OR Billy Squirer.

One of them committed suicide, right? I think it was Rob.

What about Nelly, Ashanti and Ja Rule?

TonyVanDam said:

Beautifulstarr123 said:

To some degree, I think Lionel Ritchie fell from grace for a long time, after he cheated on his wife. She beat him, senseless. It didn't help his career none, when he married his mistress.

.....and THAT^ marriage ended in divorce as well!

Yep

Tuls101 said:

Love Mike but his ego after Thriller would ultimately be his downfall. It seems like prior to Bad it was mostly about making some great music. With Bad and subsequent albums it became about making something that would sell more than Or have the same impact as Thriller. That's one of the admirable things about Prince, he realized Purple Rain was a fluke that would probably never happen again. He could've cared less about selling more, he just continued creating whatever he wanted sales be damned. In turn, he created what many consider his true masterpiece, Sign O' The Times, which received better reviews than even PR.

Yeah I guess you could say that. I think if it weren't for the demand of casual Prince fans that go to his concerts, we'd probably seldom hear anything from the PR album. I think maybe we'd still hear stuff like Computer Blue (thankfully) and of course the lovely B-side hit 17 Days

TonyVanDam said:

SeventeenDayze said:

I haven't read through all the comments yet but I'm gonna say El Debarge. He was riding high, literally, and then crashed. He's made a few comebacks but seems to always get caught up again. It's a shame because he's an amazing singer who still mysteriously has his singing chops despite his drug use (crack). I wish him the best.

The downfall of El's siblings were far worse, especially the late Bobby Debarge of Switch.

Yeah Bobby's story was really tragic. I'm sure you've seen the Unsung episode about that family by now. The whole family seems to have a dark cloud of tragedy hanging over them, sadly.

jn2 said:

What about Nelly, Ashanti and Ja Rule?

During the Ferguson riots, social media was putting Nelly on blast in a serious way. I saw comments from people who were from St. Louis who said Nelly was always known to them as someone who didn't care about his city as much as he wanted the public to believe. Basically, they said he was a sellout. He did ultimately make an appearance and said a few comments about the situation but many saw it as too little too late. Is that what you were referring to when you mentioned Nelly? What about Ashanti and Ja Rule made you include them as well, just curious.

1sotrue said:

[i]I have to go with rappers Lil'Kim and Foxy Brown. In the late 90s to early 20th both were hugely popular and on top of their game. Subsequently both had charges brought against them and spent time in jail. Lil'Kim lied to investigators about a shooting at a radio station to protect her friends and Foxy Brown was too busy fighting people when she didn't get her way and also violating her probation. Neither one was able to get their popularity back. Though Lil'Kim still wants to be revelant by being on Twitter dissing others.

The irony is that usually jail time gives rappers a boost but in this case it didn't. I can only think of a handful of rappers whose careers actually tanked because of jail time but it's few and far between

SeventeenDayze said:

SeventeenDayze said:

1sotrue said:

SeventeenDayze said:

The irony is that usually jail time gives rappers a boost but in this case it didn't. I can only think of a handful of rappers whose careers actually tanked because of jail time but it's few and far between

Well JaRule had to do some jail time but his career was on the down slide before he went in. Remy Ma I'm rooting for her to make a huge comeback. T.I. is the only rapper I know whose done jail time but his career never floundered especially now that he has Iggy Azalea as his protégé.

Yeah T.I. can thank Tiny that he didn't go to the pen for much longer the second time around. She caught a drug charge to protect him since he was still on federal probation. Man, and the thanks that she gets is his continued disrespect and philandering. Well, I don't know the guy but that's what the media seems to be reporting about him as of late. I think his promotion of Iggy is also somewhat of a slap in the face to his wife who can't even take a picture with Floyd Mayweather and post it on Instagram without a brawl breaking out....