kitbradley said:

SoulAlive said:

Madonna's not an ego-maniac she's just a smart woman who figured out,a long time ago,that touring is where the REAL money is.The music business has changed drastically since she first started,and she's just adapting to the changing times.I don't think Madonna tours because she has to...she's already practically a billionaire,lol.But,if you're a recording arrtist,isn't touring and performing part of your job description? Don't you wanna allow your fans to see you in a live setting?

Not necessarily. Streisand never tours to promote her albums. She doesn't have to. She's probably a multi-millionaire and she has a strong fan base so she knows anything she releases will sell reasonably well. I think I read something about her having stage fright?

But, again, when you reach a certain level (career and monetary), there's really no need to promote every album with a grueling tour. Now, when an artist releases a mega-huge album like "Emancipation Of Mimi", then they probably will want to tour to keep the momentum going. But, IMO, generally people like Mimi and Streisand have that freedom to decide whether or not to tour, a freedom I'm sure most veteran artists would kill to have!

Maybe another issue with Mariah is that she came on the scene at a time when there are seemingly tons and tons of one hit wonders and/or studio artists that were dominating pop music at the time. Of course, the exceptions to this were Prince, MJ and a handful of others. But, the vast majority were studio artists.

I think Mariah was popular in the early 90s because a lot of people were impressed with her vocal range and she wasn't doing 90s style dance music (but she started doing remixes that eventually took on that sound)

My point is that maybe Mariah just happened to come of age in a strange time in music. She also had no competition to speak of during that time as well. Her only competition was the one who came before her and that was Whitney Houston. Whitney's ability to capitvate audiences and eventually cross over into movies helped her stay afloat.

Mariah needs to find a specific niche to reinvent herself in and stick to it. She's got the talent but I think as long as she's trying to do songs with 2 Chainz or whatever, she might miss her opportunity.

kitbradley said:

When you write your own songs and own your masters, you don't have to tour to make money.

If an act write songs or own masters to records that don't sell much, they can't make money. Also, many recording acts are in the hole to a label: for studio time, advances, music videos, promotion, etc. An advance is a loan, not a salary or free money. The label charges all the expenses to the act. The record has to sell a certain amount before the performer can get any royalties. Many don't sell enough for the label to recuperate what they spend, so the act doesn't get out of the red.

.

The major labels sometimes release albums to fail on purpose for different reasons - for a tax write off, to shut up complaining performers, or to keep them in debt. They can also refuse to release material turned in to them for any reason, but the label still owns it, and the labels have remixed songs without the knowledge of the performer and put it out. People think the performers have power or say over their music, but they usually don't. They're just employees of the record label. That's why their music is considered "work for hire" and the label owns it, unless the act self-releases it. But such acts generally don't have the reach or big money of a major to get them on the radio or TV.

kitbradley said:

SoulAlive said:

Madonna's not an ego-maniac she's just a smart woman who figured out,a long time ago,that touring is where the REAL money is.The music business has changed drastically since she first started,and she's just adapting to the changing times.I don't think Madonna tours because she has to...she's already practically a billionaire,lol.But,if you're a recording arrtist,isn't touring and performing part of your job description? Don't you wanna allow your fans to see you in a live setting?

Not necessarily. Streisand never tours to promote her albums. She doesn't have to. She's probably a multi-millionaire and she has a strong fan base so she knows anything she releases will sell reasonably well. I think I read something about her having stage fright?

But, again, when you reach a certain level (career and monetary), there's really no need to promote every album with a grueling tour. Now, when an artist releases a mega-huge album like "Emancipation Of Mimi", then they probably will want to tour to keep the momentum going. But, IMO, generally people like Mimi and Streisand have that freedom to decide whether or not to tour, a freedom I'm sure most veteran artists would kill to have!

but it's not just about "promoting" an album.Don't the fans deserve the chance to see their favorite artist or band in a live setting? Personally,I enjoy concerts and I'd be very disappointed if my favorite artists didn't go on the road.Listening to a CD at home is one thing,but seeing a complete concert is another whole experience.

MickyDolenz said:

kitbradley said:

When you write your own songs and own your masters, you don't have to tour to make money.

If an act write songs or own masters to records that don't sell much, they can't make money. Also, many recording acts are in the hole to a label: for studio time, advances, music videos, promotion, etc. An advance is a loan, not a salary or free money. The label charges all the expenses to the act. The record has to sell a certain amount before the performer can get any royalties. Many don't sell enough for the label to recuperate what they spend, so the act doesn't get out of the red.

.

The major labels sometimes release albums to fail on purpose for different reasons - for a tax write off, to shut up complaining performers, or to keep them in debt. They can also refuse to release material turned in to them for any reason, but the label still owns it, and the labels have remixed songs without the knowledge of the performer and put it out. People think the performers have power or say over their music, but they usually don't. They're just employees of the record label. That's why their music is considered "work for hire" and the label owns it, unless the act self-releases it. But such acts generally don't have the reach or big money of a major to get them on the radio or TV.

That's really interesting and you address a few things that I was thinking about the other day while reading this thread. Mariah never struck me as the best entreprenuer but I was wondering if she ever did her own producing or even bothered to start her own studio. I also think your point about the record companies putting out lame music for their profit and to keep them in debt is right on the money.

I think another tactic that record companies use is to keep the performer high on drugs and alcohol. Did you ever see the documentary on TV One about the Debarge family? They said at one point, the record company was paying them in CRACK cocaine. I think record companies have hangers-on who are on the payroll from the company that always have a supply of some sort around them at all times.

Do you really think that veteran artists like Prince,Madonna and Paul McCartney have to tour? These people are filthy rich and they have that same freedom that you mentioned,and yet they still choose to tour.Performing is in their blood.They can't just "stop" doing it.

SoulAlive said:

kitbradley said:

Not necessarily. Streisand never tours to promote her albums. She doesn't have to. She's probably a multi-millionaire and she has a strong fan base so she knows anything she releases will sell reasonably well. I think I read something about her having stage fright?

But, again, when you reach a certain level (career and monetary), there's really no need to promote every album with a grueling tour. Now, when an artist releases a mega-huge album like "Emancipation Of Mimi", then they probably will want to tour to keep the momentum going. But, IMO, generally people like Mimi and Streisand have that freedom to decide whether or not to tour, a freedom I'm sure most veteran artists would kill to have!

but it's not just about "promoting" an album.Don't the fans deserve the chance to see their favorite artist or band in a live setting? Personally,I enjoy concerts and I'd be very disappointed if my favorite artists didn't go on the road.Listening to a CD at home is one thing,but seeing a complete concert is another whole experience.

I see both sides of this. I think Mariah was more confident in launching a tour with Mimi. We have certainly seen other artists go on tour without a current hit and the tour flopped.

I think the last time Mariah did a bunch of shows FOR FANS was after E=MC2 when she had "Touch My Body", even though her setlist had lots of 90s hits in it.

SoulAlive you know it's cruel to compare any artist's touring itinerary to Madonna's I still don't know how she managed it after being a new mom!

SoulAlive said:

people like Mimi and Streisand have that freedom to decide whether or not to tour,a freedom I'm sure most veteran artists would love to have

Do you really think that veteran artists like Prince,Madonna and Paul McCartney have to tour? These people are filthy rich and they have that same freedom that you mentioned,and yet they still choose to tour.Performing is in their blood.They can't just "stop" doing it.

Well, don't we have to take into consideration that these folks have to pay taxes AND we can assume that most of what they have earned is tied up in assets? We really don't know how much tax-free income they have laying around (which is ZERO). There are ways of getting around it with charitable donations but it seems like most of them might tour to maintain their current lifestyle.

SoulAlive said:

Do you really think that veteran artists like Prince,Madonna and Paul McCartney have to tour? These people are filthy rich and they have that same freedom that you mentioned,and yet they still choose to tour. Performing is in their blood. They can't just "stop" doing it.

But they were performing before getting a deal. The Beatles were together in some form for years before getting a deal and constantly giging. Some people are studio acts, then there are others like The Grateful Dead who are more known for their concerts than their records. Back in the 1970's, Steely Dan avoided doing concerts, but they seem to tour all the time now since getting back together. Look at Live From Daryl's House. Hall & Oates are long pass their commercial popularity, but Daryl Hall liked performing and paid for the show himself and put it online. Now it's on TV. I don't know if he has the same control as before though. You mentioned Paul, but George Harrison didn't like touring and rarely did in his solo career. John Lennon didn't tour either, but Paul did with Wings. George was mostly a recluse, but he did get involved in the movie business. Paul wanting The Beatles to tour again and do concerts was one of the reasons the group broke up, because the other 3 weren't interested. The rooftop concert was a compromise.

SoulAlive said:

people like Mimi and Streisand have that freedom to decide whether or not to tour,a freedom I'm sure most veteran artists would love to have

Do you really think that veteran artists like Prince,Madonna and Paul McCartney have to tour? These people are filthy rich and they have that same freedom that you mentioned,and yet they still choose to tour.Performing is in their blood.They can't just "stop" doing it.

I agree. I have an expensive seat to see Fleetwood Mac reunited with Christine McVie. I think she could have stayed retired in her cottage if she wanted to, but they are really excited to tour!

MickyDolenz said:

kitbradley said:

When you write your own songs and own your masters, you don't have to tour to make money.

If an act write songs or own masters to records that don't sell much, they can't make money. Also, many recording acts are in the hole to a label: for studio time, advances, music videos, promotion, etc. An advance is a loan, not a salary or free money. The label charges all the expenses to the act. The record has to sell a certain amount before the performer can get any royalties. Many don't sell enough for the label to recuperate what they spend, so the act doesn't get out of the red.

.

The major labels sometimes release albums to fail on purpose for different reasons - for a tax write off, to shut up complaining performers, or to keep them in debt. They can also refuse to release material turned in to them for any reason, but the label still owns it, and the labels have remixed songs without the knowledge of the performer and put it out. People think the performers have power or say over their music, but they usually don't. They're just employees of the record label. That's why their music is considered "work for hire" and the label owns it, unless the act self-releases it. But such acts generally don't have the reach or big money of a major to get them on the radio or TV.

That's true generally, but Mariah has been writing her own songs since she first got into the business, and the royalties on her original Christmas album alone could keep her rich up through her deathbed. But since she does own publishing on all her albums, she is practically swimming in cash (or at least should be). Plus with her hubby Nick Cannon also doing well for himself with America's Got Talent and his own production company making movies for Nickelodeon and BET, she's not hurting for cash.

Plus

signing with Virgin Records $21 Million

being bought out of contract with Virgin Records $28 Million

signing with Island Records afterwards $24 Million

SoulAlive said:

kitbradley said:

Mariah's not touring because she doesn't have to. When you write your own songs and own your masters, you don't have to tour to make money. I don't know much about Madonna so I can't speak on whether she writes all her songs and owns her catalog. I do know Madonna is an ego-maniac and those type of artists are going to tour whether they need to or not.

A lot of veteran R&B artists are touring because it's the only way they can make money. Mariah's lucky she isn't forced into touring to make money, especially with 2 young children. I'm sure she doesn't want some strangers raising them. If I were in the business and had the kind of bread Mariah has, no way in hell I would be touring unless I were bored to death and just wanted something to do. Touring is very grueling. It's not as much fun as it looks to us outsiders.

Madonna's not an ego-maniac she's just a smart woman who figured out,a long time ago,that touring is where the REAL money is.The music business has changed drastically since she first started,and she's just adapting to the changing times.I don't think Madonna tours because she has to...she's already practically a billionaire,lol.But,if you're a recording arrtist,isn't touring and performing part of your job description? Don't you wanna allow your fans to see you in a live setting?

didnt madonna sign one of those 360 deals? she has no choice but to tour, live naion has to make their money back, same with jayz, he ends one tour and goes right back out, his last concert was kinda pitiful i wanted my money back.

suga10 said:

She needs Tommy Mottola back.

He always knew how to bring out the best in her.

you mean payola and 99 cent singles?

lowkey said:

suga10 said:

She needs Tommy Mottola back.

He always knew how to bring out the best in her.

you mean payola and 99 cent singles?

Everyone pro-Motolla is referring to her conservative presentation and non-hip hop production, arguably most massively appealing, the nucleus of her original fanbase.

Wait a minute. Don't you all remember those comments that Prince said about how Mariah was getting ripped off by her record company because she was in some sort of record deal that was going to pay her $100 million for four albums? I think he was saying something about studio fees, not getting royalties, etc. and he showed how the deal wasn't as lucrative as it seemed at the time.

Cinny said:

lowkey said:

you mean payola and 99 cent singles?

Everyone pro-Motolla is referring to her conservative presentation and non-hip hop production, arguably most massively appealing, the nucleus of her original fanbase.

It worked for Mariah ealier career and most recently for Susan Boyle and Adele.

kewlschool said:

Cinny said:

Everyone pro-Motolla is referring to her conservative presentation and non-hip hop production, arguably most massively appealing, the nucleus of her original fanbase.

It worked for Mariah ealier career and most recently for Susan Boyle and Adele.

This was going on during the time that people were saying that MC was a rip-off of Whitney Houston. Once she left Tommy, you really started to see her turn into what she probably wanted to be all along.

lowkey said:

SoulAlive said:

Madonna's not an ego-maniac she's just a smart woman who figured out,a long time ago,that touring is where the REAL money is.The music business has changed drastically since she first started,and she's just adapting to the changing times.I don't think Madonna tours because she has to...she's already practically a billionaire,lol.But,if you're a recording arrtist,isn't touring and performing part of your job description? Don't you wanna allow your fans to see you in a live setting?

didnt madonna sign one of those 360 deals? she has no choice but to tour, live naion has to make their money back, same with jayz, he ends one tour and goes right back out, his last concert was kinda pitiful i wanted my money back.

Yeah,Madonna signed a 360 deal with Live Nation.A deal like that makes sense for someone like her....an artist who likes touring and is known for putting on impressive shows.She's a hard worker.I can't comment on Jay Z,since I've never seen one of his concerts

SoulAlive said:

people like Mimi and Streisand have that freedom to decide whether or not to tour,a freedom I'm sure most veteran artists would love to have

Do you really think that veteran artists like Prince,Madonna and Paul McCartney have to tour? These people are filthy rich and they have that same freedom that you mentioned,and yet they still choose to tour.Performing is in their blood.They can't just "stop" doing it.

You're missing my point. Veteran artists of a certain caliber who have sold ridiculous amounts of records, written their own songs, own their masters, invested their money wisely, etc. have the freedom to decide whether they want to tour or not. It is their choice. If Mimi was really in need of money, she would be out touring and would be doing very well. She got paid millions of dollars to sit on her behind for a few weeks as a judge on American Idol. She simply doesn't need the money. If you can make a bunch of money from TV apperances so you can go home and be with your children rather than touring, it's a no-brainer. Again, Mariah has young children now so as a responsible mother, she may not want to travel across the world for months at a time touring if she doesn't have to. And I'm sure there are many other personal factors that artists take into consideration as far as deciding on a tour. Some may LOVE touring while others prefer the studio.

MANY other veteran artists who didn't fare as well as a Mariah, Prince or McCartney or had management who robbed them blind, have to tour in order to pay their bills, if they are lucky. It saddens me when I see people like Angela Bofill who was constantly touring but when she had the stroke, her family was struggling with her medical bills and asking the public for help.

And let's not even talk about Prince. We all know all he cares about is $$$.

[Edited 6/19/14 6:41am]

kitbradley said:

SoulAlive said:

Do you really think that veteran artists like Prince,Madonna and Paul McCartney have to tour? These people are filthy rich and they have that same freedom that you mentioned,and yet they still choose to tour.Performing is in their blood.They can't just "stop" doing it.

You're missing my point. Veteran artists of a certain caliber who have sold ridiculous amounts of records, written their own songs, own their masters, invested their money wisely, etc. have the freedom to decide whether they want to tour or not. It is their choice. If Mimi was really in need of money, she would be out touring and would be doing very well. She got paid millions of dollars to sit on her behind for a few weeks as a judge on American Idol. She simply doesn't need the money. If you can make a bunch of money from TV apperances so you can go home and be with your children rather than touring, it's a no-brainer. Again, Mariah has young children now so as a responsible mother, she may not want to travel across the world for months at a time touring if she doesn't have to. And I'm sure there are many other personal factors that artists take into consideration as far as deciding on a tour. Some may LOVE touring while others prefer the studio.

MANY other veteran artists who didn't fare as well as a Mariah, Prince or McCartney or had management who robbed them blind, have to tour in order to pay their bills, if they are lucky. It saddens me when I see people like Angela Bofill who was constantly touring but when she had the stroke, her family was struggling with her medical bills and asking the public for help.

And let's not even talk about Prince. We all know all he cares about is $$$.

[Edited 6/19/14 6:41am]

If she wants to preform she should do a Vegas residency. Stay in 1 spot, have your fans come to you.

kitbradley said:

Mimi has almost 25 years in the business, sold hundreds of millions of records and has more bread than all of the people combined on this board. Something tells me she's not losing sleep because this album didn't go Platinum in 3 days. Name me some veteran R&B singers, who are still alive, who can manage a #3 debut on the Pop chart and a #1 debut on the R&B chart???

I finished listening to the CD and I was surprised because originally, I wasn't expecting much. There are some damn fine songs on it. She should be proud. Sales don't equal quality. And, for the most part, this is a quality album.


I'm just happy that Mimi is still alive and with us. With all the pressures of the industry and all that she has had to live up to, she never got involved in drugs and let it ruin her career or put her in an early grave. God bless you, Mimi.

I am with u 100%, kit! The new album is da BOMB! I love her voice, I love how she writes 99% of what she records (smart move on HER part) and I love the connection she shares with her fans. She's legendary. I always had a soft spot for that 5-octave voice in all of its skillful musicality. I don't care about charts, flops, strapless, ill-fitting gowns or the like. I care only for and about her undeniable talent and you're right. Sales do NOT = quality.

whitechocolatebrotha said:

kitbradley said:

Mimi has almost 25 years in the business, sold hundreds of millions of records and has more bread than all of the people combined on this board. Something tells me she's not losing sleep because this album didn't go Platinum in 3 days. Name me some veteran R&B singers, who are still alive, who can manage a #3 debut on the Pop chart and a #1 debut on the R&B chart???

I finished listening to the CD and I was surprised because originally, I wasn't expecting much. There are some damn fine songs on it. She should be proud. Sales don't equal quality. And, for the most part, this is a quality album.


I'm just happy that Mimi is still alive and with us. With all the pressures of the industry and all that she has had to live up to, she never got involved in drugs and let it ruin her career or put her in an early grave. God bless you, Mimi.

I am with u 100%, kit! The new album is da BOMB! I love her voice, I love how she writes 99% of what she records (smart move on HER part) and I love the connection she shares with her fans. She's legendary. I always had a soft spot for that 5-octave voice in all of its skillful musicality. I don't care about charts, flops, strapless, ill-fitting gowns or the like. I care only for and about her undeniable talent and you're right. Sales do NOT = quality.

I think your comment kind of reminds me how charts, hits, etc. may end up becoming less and less relevant. Unfortunately, what this might mean for music in the future is that we will hear less and less from new artists. After all, new artists are measured by sales but since fewer people are buying music, it's really hard to measure who is popular and who is just benefiting from heavy marketing and promotion. Maybe it's always been that way but the music landscape is definitely changing

SeventeenDayze said:

how about just getting rid of the charts. whats really the purpose anyway other than bragging rights and extra promo.fans these days act more like a&r people, they look forward to the soundscan results and 1st week sales seem to be more important than the actual music.

suga10 said:

SeventeenDayze said:

This was going on during the time that people were saying that MC was a rip-off of Whitney Houston. Once she left Tommy, you really started to see her turn into what she probably wanted to be all along.

But her motivation to drive herself musically and her discipline as a singer fell apart as the years went on. She has become lazy and it reflects in her performances. Do you see her performing to that same potential as she once used to back when she was under Sony? I understand if she wanted her own creative freedom, but something is lacking now At least during Butterfly and Rainbow era when her image was changing, the dedication and discipline was still there. [Edited 6/21/14 17:03pm] [Edited 6/21/14 17:05pm]

Yeah I've been wondering about that as well. Maybe she's just lost her hunger for that kind of thing, or as you said, perhaps it was the pressure from Sony that resulted in different outcomes for her during that time. Maybe around the mid-00s things were starting to change but she still had hits during that time. I think she's still got it but it boils down to management, sexism and a changing music landscape.