Graycap23 said:

larksanders said:

I'm aware that a Linn Drum is completely different from sampling. My comment was a response to "I can't live without real musicians who actually create on REAL instruments (acoustic or digital)". It's funny because my uncle (who is a drummer) was so against people who used drum machines. Pretty much making the same arguement that it doesn't take talent, it's just a loop, etc. I always said you had a band or a session drummer play your beats, none of this digital stuff. CynicKill, I guess you're right. This must be generational. Does it mean that either side is wrong though?

What part of acoustic or DIGITAL was not clear?

well you did bold REAL instruments as if you were making a point that computers/machines are the contrary. I just wanted to make yet another point about how music has evolved and those who stuck in their ways can't accept that. It's not an insult for me to feel as if you use a sample can be just as hard creating from scratch. I have given you explames referencing cover songs yet you still don't see it. It's cool though, good times!

[Edited 4/10/12 12:22pm]

larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

What part of acoustic or DIGITAL was not clear?

well you did bold REAL instruments as if you were making a point that computers/machines are the contrary. I just wanted to make yet another point about how music has evolved and those who stuck in their ways can't accept that. It's not an insult for me to feel as if you use a sample can be just as hard creating from scratch. I have given you explames referencing cover songs yet you still don't see it. It's cool though, good times!

[Edited 4/10/12 12:22pm]

Hummmmmm.............I own some 50/60 instruments with 80% of of them digital.

I don't really get your point at all.

Azz said:

paisleypark4 said:

Part of why I stopped complaining about sampling was also because these artists get paid (most of the time) for their tracks being sampled.

Their songs are not getting any play on the radio or being aknowledged like other artists not in the r&b genre..especially funk and soul. So sample away...I learned alot more from samples than I have just listening to the radio growing up half the time. Like I said about Kanye though is not that he is only sampling, he has live instruments playing on top of the songs.

[Edited 4/10/12 9:27am]

It sometimes seems like no artist is creating anymore, instead, just sampling.

Sampling has recently declined due to the high costs.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Azz said:

It sometimes seems like no artist is creating anymore, instead, just sampling.

Sampling has recently declined due to the high costs.

Kanye West clearly hasn't.

Azz said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Sampling has recently declined due to the high costs.

Kanye West clearly hasn't.

But you said no artists, not just Kanye West.

Real musicians create, Hip Hop Producers "Borrow" and Kanye is creative, no doubt, but not very original...

gdiminished said:

Real musicians create, Hip Hop Producers "Borrow" and Kanye is creative, no doubt, but not very original...

Define "real" musician.

smoothcriminal12 said:

gdiminished said:

Real musicians create, Hip Hop Producers "Borrow" and Kanye is creative, no doubt, but not very original...

Define "real" musician.

see Mint Condition, Prince, P-funk, Bootsy, EW&F, Dangelo............

Graycap23 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Define "real" musician.

see Mint Condition, Prince, P-funk, Bootsy, EW&F, Dangelo............

Artists, sure. But I mean, how do you personally define what a real musician is? Someone who plays an instrument?

smoothcriminal12 said:

gdiminished said:

Real musicians create, Hip Hop Producers "Borrow" and Kanye is creative, no doubt, but not very original...

Define "real" musician.

To add on to what Greycap said:

Stevie Wonder (your friend in your avi)

B. McKnight

Toni, Tone, Tone

Joe

Babyface

Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis

Teddy Riley

Zapp and Roger

Jodeci

Playa

Chick Corea

Oscar Peterson

People who create music that will stand the test time and not stand on the shoulders of other's creativity.

[Edited 4/10/12 16:31pm]

gdiminished said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Define "real" musician.

To add on to what Greycap said:

Stevie Wonder (your friend in your avi)

B. McKnight

Toni, Tone, Tone

Joe

Babyface

Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis

Teddy Riley

Zapp and Roger

Jodeci

Playa

Chick Corea

Oscar Peterson

People who create music that will stand the test time and not stand on the shoulders of other's creativity.

[Edited 4/10/12 16:31pm]

I meant a more "textbook" definition.

''Real'' musician is in the eye of the beholder.

There are people who don't think Prince, Bootsy or P-Funk are real musicians. Everyones got different tastes, so i don't think there is a real definition for so called ''real'' musicians. Because not everyone is going to agree to it.

Plus when i saw Prince in concert i had to hear him rant about how he was playing ''real music with real musicians' STFU and get back to playin shorty i didn't pay to hear you whine

"The College Dropout [Roc-A-Fella, 2004]
What is the fuss about his contradictions? The main difference between him and most hip hop journalists is his money. They'd buy the Benz--so would I, Volvos don't last as long--and probably the gold too. They'd say anything to get laid. They accept the economic rationale of dealing and dig music of dubious moral value. Yet at the same time they do their bit for racial righteousness and know full well how much they need the "single black female addicted to retail." On Easter Sunday, some of them even believe in Jesus Christ. But none of them are as clever or as funny as Kanye West, and these days I'm not so sure about Eminem either. West came up as a beatmaster, but his Alicia Keys and Talib Kweli hits are pretty bland, and neither his voice nor his flow could lead anyone into sin. So he'd better conceptualize, and he does. Not only does he create a unique role model, that role model is dangerous--his arguments against education are as market-targeted as other rappers' arguments for thug life. Don't do what he says, kids, and don't do what he does, because you can't. Just stay in school. Really. I mean it. A

Graduation [Roc-A-Fella, 2007]
Rank this minor success with hooky background music like 50 Cent's The Massacre--no deeper than Coldplay when you pull out the measuring stick, but a lot smarter. Compared to 50's, the hooks are pretty pricey. Yeezy loves designer labels and procures for himself the finest fromage--Elton John to Steely Dan to Daft Punk softening us up for gay cult hero Labi Siffre, like that. He self-indulges throughout--not just by expanding at length on his skimpily rationalized fascination with his own fame, but with little stuff like his failure to convert "this"-"crib"-"shit"-"live"-"serious" into a rhyme or "at bay at a distance" into an idiom. Nevertheless, every single track offers up its momentary pleasures--choruses that make you say yeah on songs you've already found wanting, confessional details and emotional aperçus on an album that still reduces to quality product when they're over. A-

808s & Heartbreak [Roc-A-Fella, 2008]
Altogether as slow, sad-ass and self-involved as reported, this is a breakup album there's no reason to like except that it's brilliant. It has its own dark sound and its own engaging tunes, and although West couldn't hit the notes without Auto-Tune, his decision to robotize as well as pitch-correct his voice both undercuts his self-importance and adds physical reality to tales of alienated fame that might otherwise be pure pity parties. The second half the songs start to slip, but they come rushing back with the Lil Wayne ditty and the only track here about what's really bringing him down: not the loss of his girlfriend but the death of his mother, during cosmetic surgery that somewhere not too deep down he's sure traces all too directly to his alienated fame. A-

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy [Roc-A-Fella, 2010]
Arrogance per se has never been Yeezy's problem--he has every right to think he's more talented than Nas, Taylor Swift, or me. His problem is that he has no gift for it. Not only is he radically insecure, he didn't come up on the get-it-while-you-can fatalism that armors gangstas street, showbiz, and in between. Cannily and candidly, he acknowledges this on "Monster," where he knows perfectly well that his "profit profit" bling-and-sex brag is about to get blown away by padrone Jay-Z's "All I see is these n****z I made millionaires/Millin' about" and pink-haired Nicki Minaj's "bitch from Sri Lanka"-"Willy Wonka"-"watch the queen conquer" trifecta. Cataloguing the perks of power he sounds as geeky as Mark Zuckerberg, and because grandiosity doesn't suit him deep down, the sonic luxuries of this world-beating return to form have no shot at the grace of The Collede Dropout or Late Registration. But because he's shrewd and large, he knows how to use his profits profits to induce Jay-Z, Pusha T, the RZA, Swizz Beats, and his boy Prince CyHi to admit and indeed complain that the whole deal is "f***in' ridiculous." "Power" doesn't establish his potency and "Gorgeous" isn't quite. But "Hell of a Life"? "I'm so gifted at finding what I don't like the most"? That's his heart, his message, the reason he's so major. It's also why he goes out on a righteous, wacked-out 90-second diatribe by a Gil Scott-Heron so young he hasn't gotten into cocaine--hasn't even signed to a major label. A"

Robert Christgau.

2freaky4church1 said:

"The College Dropout [Roc-A-Fella, 2004]
What is the fuss about his contradictions? The main difference between him and most hip hop journalists is his money. They'd buy the Benz--so would I, Volvos don't last as long--and probably the gold too. They'd say anything to get laid. They accept the economic rationale of dealing and dig music of dubious moral value. Yet at the same time they do their bit for racial righteousness and know full well how much they need the "single black female addicted to retail." On Easter Sunday, some of them even believe in Jesus Christ. But none of them are as clever or as funny as Kanye West, and these days I'm not so sure about Eminem either. West came up as a beatmaster, but his Alicia Keys and Talib Kweli hits are pretty bland, and neither his voice nor his flow could lead anyone into sin. So he'd better conceptualize, and he does. Not only does he create a unique role model, that role model is dangerous--his arguments against education are as market-targeted as other rappers' arguments for thug life. Don't do what he says, kids, and don't do what he does, because you can't. Just stay in school. Really. I mean it. A

Graduation [Roc-A-Fella, 2007]
Rank this minor success with hooky background music like 50 Cent's The Massacre--no deeper than Coldplay when you pull out the measuring stick, but a lot smarter. Compared to 50's, the hooks are pretty pricey. Yeezy loves designer labels and procures for himself the finest fromage--Elton John to Steely Dan to Daft Punk softening us up for gay cult hero Labi Siffre, like that. He self-indulges throughout--not just by expanding at length on his skimpily rationalized fascination with his own fame, but with little stuff like his failure to convert "this"-"crib"-"shit"-"live"-"serious" into a rhyme or "at bay at a distance" into an idiom. Nevertheless, every single track offers up its momentary pleasures--choruses that make you say yeah on songs you've already found wanting, confessional details and emotional aperçus on an album that still reduces to quality product when they're over. A-

808s & Heartbreak [Roc-A-Fella, 2008]
Altogether as slow, sad-ass and self-involved as reported, this is a breakup album there's no reason to like except that it's brilliant. It has its own dark sound and its own engaging tunes, and although West couldn't hit the notes without Auto-Tune, his decision to robotize as well as pitch-correct his voice both undercuts his self-importance and adds physical reality to tales of alienated fame that might otherwise be pure pity parties. The second half the songs start to slip, but they come rushing back with the Lil Wayne ditty and the only track here about what's really bringing him down: not the loss of his girlfriend but the death of his mother, during cosmetic surgery that somewhere not too deep down he's sure traces all too directly to his alienated fame. A-

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy [Roc-A-Fella, 2010]
Arrogance per se has never been Yeezy's problem--he has every right to think he's more talented than Nas, Taylor Swift, or me. His problem is that he has no gift for it. Not only is he radically insecure, he didn't come up on the get-it-while-you-can fatalism that armors gangstas street, showbiz, and in between. Cannily and candidly, he acknowledges this on "Monster," where he knows perfectly well that his "profit profit" bling-and-sex brag is about to get blown away by padrone Jay-Z's "All I see is these n****z I made millionaires/Millin' about" and pink-haired Nicki Minaj's "bitch from Sri Lanka"-"Willy Wonka"-"watch the queen conquer" trifecta. Cataloguing the perks of power he sounds as geeky as Mark Zuckerberg, and because grandiosity doesn't suit him deep down, the sonic luxuries of this world-beating return to form have no shot at the grace of The Collede Dropout or Late Registration. But because he's shrewd and large, he knows how to use his profits profits to induce Jay-Z, Pusha T, the RZA, Swizz Beats, and his boy Prince CyHi to admit and indeed complain that the whole deal is "f***in' ridiculous." "Power" doesn't establish his potency and "Gorgeous" isn't quite. But "Hell of a Life"? "I'm so gifted at finding what I don't like the most"? That's his heart, his message, the reason he's so major. It's also why he goes out on a righteous, wacked-out 90-second diatribe by a Gil Scott-Heron so young he hasn't gotten into cocaine--hasn't even signed to a major label. A"

Robert Christgau.

Robert Christgau is an annoying fuck yeah i get that he gave good reviews to the albums. But he is a huge snob & when i read his music review book last year... it's like reading a stuffy ''i'm to deep for you to comprehend & your all worthless humans compared to me'' book. ick

[Edited 4/10/12 17:37pm]

"

5150 [Warner Bros., 1986]
Wonder how the guitar mavens who thought Eddie equalled Van Halen are going to like his fireworks displays and balls-to-the-wall hooks now that video star David Lee Roth has given way to one of the biggest schmucks in the known biz. No musician with something to say could stomach responding to Sammy Hagar's call, and this album proves it. C+

OU812 [Warner Bros., 1988]
Not that they give a shit, but trading Dave for Sammy sure wrecked their shot at Led Zep of the '80s--master guitarist, signature vocalist, underrated rhythm section. They wouldn't have made it anyway, of course. Eddie's obsessed with technique, Roth's contemptuous of technique, rhythm section's got enough technique and no klutz genius. But Sammy . . . like wow. If I can't claim the new boy owns them (property rights they protect), you can't deny he defines them. Not that they give a shit. C

Appetite for Destruction [Geffen, 1987]
It's a mug's game to deny the technical facility claimed by one-upping crits and young victims of testosterone poisoning--not only does Axl cruise where other "hard rock" singers strive, but he has a knack for believability, which in this genre is the most technical matter of all. When he melds scream and croon on the big-beat ballad, you understand why some confused young thing in an uplift bra is sure it's love sweet love. But Axl is a sucker for dark romantic abstractions--he doesn't love Night Train, he loves alcoholism. And once that sweet child o' his proves her devotion by sucking his cock for the portacam, the evil slut is ready for "See me hit you you fall down." B-"

Robert Christgau. lol

His Rock Critic Royalty right?

He's certainly well respected.

2freaky4church1 said:

"

5150 [Warner Bros., 1986]
Wonder how the guitar mavens who thought Eddie equalled Van Halen are going to like his fireworks displays and balls-to-the-wall hooks now that video star David Lee Roth has given way to one of the biggest schmucks in the known biz. No musician with something to say could stomach responding to Sammy Hagar's call, and this album proves it. C+

OU812 [Warner Bros., 1988]
Not that they give a shit, but trading Dave for Sammy sure wrecked their shot at Led Zep of the '80s--master guitarist, signature vocalist, underrated rhythm section. They wouldn't have made it anyway, of course. Eddie's obsessed with technique, Roth's contemptuous of technique, rhythm section's got enough technique and no klutz genius. But Sammy . . . like wow. If I can't claim the new boy owns them (property rights they protect), you can't deny he defines them. Not that they give a shit. C

Appetite for Destruction [Geffen, 1987]
It's a mug's game to deny the technical facility claimed by one-upping crits and young victims of testosterone poisoning--not only does Axl cruise where other "hard rock" singers strive, but he has a knack for believability, which in this genre is the most technical matter of all. When he melds scream and croon on the big-beat ballad, you understand why some confused young thing in an uplift bra is sure it's love sweet love. But Axl is a sucker for dark romantic abstractions--he doesn't love Night Train, he loves alcoholism. And once that sweet child o' his proves her devotion by sucking his cock for the portacam, the evil slut is ready for "See me hit you you fall down." B-"

Robert Christgau. lol

idc what he rates album. He's not my controler boo

And your obsesion with constantly bringing up the Sammy era of VH to me. Make's me think you really got a hard for the Sammy years it's ok i'm here for you freaky

[Edited 4/10/12 18:28pm]

CynicKill said:

His Rock Critic Royalty right?

He's certainly well respected.

He is, but i don't see how this fits in with the ''real'' musician argument. I'm a Kanye fan & yes Rob gave all his albums good reviews, but some people simple won't like them. One rock critics opinion won't change any others on certain artists.

[Edited 4/10/12 18:28pm]

smoothcriminal12 said:

gdiminished said:

To add on to what Greycap said:

Stevie Wonder (your friend in your avi)

B. McKnight

Toni, Tone, Tone

Joe

Babyface

Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis

Teddy Riley

Zapp and Roger

Jodeci

Playa

Chick Corea

Oscar Peterson

People who create music that will stand the test time and not stand on the shoulders of other's creativity.

[Edited 4/10/12 16:31pm]

I meant a more "textbook" definition.

A musician can play an instrument plain and simple, be it classical, jazz, R+B, pop, all the above mentioned artists can do that and more and didn't have to rely on samples on the sly to get it done.

gdiminished said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I meant a more "textbook" definition.

A musician can play an instrument plain and simple, be it classical, jazz, R+B, pop, all the above mentioned artists can do that and more and didn't have to rely on samples on the sly to get it done.

Well, by definition:

A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument, especially as a profession, or is musically talented

So you are 50% right, but would Kanye not fall under the second half of the definition?

smoothcriminal12 said:

gdiminished said:

Well, by definition:

A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument, especially as a profession, or is musically talented

So you are 50% right, but would Kanye not fall under the second half of the definition?

Kanye doesn't play an instrument, he doesn't rank up there with any creative groups that have been mentioned a few posts ago. Music has been so dumbed down, stripped, and diluted for today's audience Kanye West of all people can be considered a true musician.

Strip away any samples and he barely can get an interlude going.

gdiminished said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Kanye doesn't play an instrument, he doesn't rank up there with any creative groups that have been mentioned a few posts ago. Music has been so dumbed down, stripped, and diluted for today's audience Kanye West of all people can be considered a true musician.

Strip away any samples and he barely can get an interlude going.

It seems that you have a bias against sample. To be quite honest, it really all chalks up to personal opinion in the end.

smoothcriminal12 said:

gdiminished said:

Kanye doesn't play an instrument, he doesn't rank up there with any creative groups that have been mentioned a few posts ago. Music has been so dumbed down, stripped, and diluted for today's audience Kanye West of all people can be considered a true musician.

Strip away any samples and he barely can get an interlude going.

It seems that you have a bias against sample. To be quite honest, it really all chalks up to personal opinion in the end.

No it does not. Either u can play an instrument or u cannot.

I could careless if Kanye sampled Jay-Z farting and threw it on a track, he makes great music IMO.

I own every single album and I've bought every single album on the first day. I can go without Graduation but all his albums are solid. He makes good music, original or not and the critics agree.

If I based my music preference of today's music by who played a "real" instrument, I wouldn't be listening to anything!

Not only has he stay consistent with his material he's also stayed consistent commerically despite acting like a jackass. Every album platinum, every album over 400K in week #1, every album with a 75 or better on metacritic, 5 straight #1 albums (including Watch the Thrown).

BTW All of the Light is probably the best song on MBDTF and it doesn't use a sample. He also produced 'Monster' without a sample and the beat is fire. It can be done.

[Edited 4/10/12 23:52pm]

Kanye may be lame now, along with being a poor lyricist in general, but he is an adept musician:

A drum machine/pad is an instrument.

A midi keyboard is an instrument.

A digital music workstation is an instrument.

Therefore, that whole Prince "real musicians only play conventional strings and keys" mentality is old now, and ultimately meaningless. Without visuals or liner notes, you can't possibly know what anyone is playing on a record when only the audio is heard anyway.

WaterInYourBath said:

Kanye may be lame now, along with being a poor lyricist in general, but he is an adept musician:

A drum machine/pad is an instrument.

A midi keyboard is an instrument.

A digital music workstation is an instrument.

Therefore, that whole Prince "real musicians only play conventional strings and keys" mentality is old now, and ultimately meaningless. Without visuals or liner notes, you can't possibly know what anyone is playing on a record when only the audio is heard anyway.

I'll bet u can LIVE on a stage.

Graycap23 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

It seems that you have a bias against sample. To be quite honest, it really all chalks up to personal opinion in the end.

No it does not. Either u can play an instrument or u cannot.

That has nothing to do with whether or not you are a real musician. "Real musician" is a subjective term. Regardless of what anybody thinks, Kanye still falls under the definition of musician.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Graycap23 said:

No it does not. Either u can play an instrument or u cannot.

That has nothing to do with whether or not you are a real musician. "Real musician" is a subjective term. Regardless of what anybody thinks, Kanye still falls under the definition of musician.

Not 2 any of the 100's of professional musicians that I know.

There is nothing subjective about it.

Either u can PLAY an instrument or u can't. Where is the subjectivity?

Graycap23 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

That has nothing to do with whether or not you are a real musician. "Real musician" is a subjective term. Regardless of what anybody thinks, Kanye still falls under the definition of musician.

Not 2 any of the 100's of professional musicians that I know.

There is nothing subjective about it.

Either u can PLAY an instrument or u can't. Where is the subjectivity?

Still not according to the definition.