Ok - I'm gonna jump into this debate and side with the level headed and spot on Graycap

Sampling is NOT hard to do.

Creating real music with real instruments with real originality IS hard.

Its that simple.

99% of the music sampled by Kayne was ORIGINAL music made by real musicians.

And Kayne aint no musician! Hardly! He's a rapper and producer of rap music.

Get real people.

2020 said:

And Kayne aint no musician!

You can't just make up your own definition of a word, guys.

smoothcriminal12 said:

2020 said:

And Kayne aint no musician!

You can't just make up your own definition of a word, guys.

A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument

2020 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

You can't just make up your own definition of a word, guys.

A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument

Welll he does sample... but kanye does play piano & keyboard. In fact there is live video of him doing it

This thread has gone

This thread reminds me of something Fran Lebowitz said in her documentary "Public Speaking".

She mentioned how arts audience is just as important as the art itself. So in the 1980's when this highly discerning gay audience died of AIDS, the bar for high taste was removed so everything had to be flattened down down down all the way down so "everyone" could understand it.

So we have a debate as to whether an original song that was written, performed and produced by an artist or artists is just as difficult as someone then taking that song or part of it, recording it, and manipulating said song to come up with another song.

Think for one minute.

Rationalize it.

Now answer the question.*

*And disregard how enjoyable the artist or song(s) is.

2020 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

You can't just make up your own definition of a word, guys.

A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument

Wrong.

http://www.merriam-webste...y/musician

One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

http://www.thefreediction...m/musician

1.

a person who makes music a profession, especially as a performer of music.

2.

any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

http://dictionary.referen...e/musician

smoothcriminal12 said:

2020 said:

Proven wrong by three definitions.

Gunsnhalen said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I knew that'd get ya going....hahahaha

see more here about what a real musician is....

http://prince.org/msg/8/353665

smoothcriminal12 said:

2020 said:

Proven wrong by three definitions.

[Edited 4/11/12 15:35pm]

Public Enemy used samples, Run DMC used samples. Are you saying they are not good?

2020 said:

I knew that'd get ya going....hahahaha

see more here about what a real musician is....

http://prince.org/msg/8/353665

smoothcriminal12 said:

[Edited 4/11/12 15:35pm]

The thread still ain't provin shit.

[Edited 4/11/12 16:14pm]

2freaky4church1 said:

Public Enemy used samples, Run DMC used samples. Are you saying they are not good?

Exactly

Grandmaster Flash & Tribe Called Quest did as well

I'm telling you it's a generational thing. There are some people who think all sampling is is looping a track and maybe putting some other drums on it then having someone mix it and there you go (true if you're Puffy). They don't know how clever sampling is done (time stretching, pitch shifting, removing mid-range) just for maybe some horns which add more of an effect than an actual lead line. Again, I tell these people to listen to some Digable Planets/Shabazz Palaces or DJ Shadow records and honestly tell me if you don't think there is any skill involed in that.

larksanders said:

I'm telling you it's a generational thing. There are some people who think all sampling is is looping a track and maybe putting some other drums on it then having someone mix it and there you go (true if you're Puffy). They don't know how clever sampling is done (time stretching, pitch shifting, removing mid-range) just for maybe some horns which add more of an effect than an actual lead line. Again, I tell these people to listen to some Digable Planets/Shabazz Palaces or DJ Shadow records and honestly tell me if you don't think there is any skill involed in that.

Skill? Yes...............musician? No.

larksanders said:

I'm telling you it's a generational thing. There are some people who think all sampling is is looping a track and maybe putting some other drums on it then having someone mix it and there you go (true if you're Puffy). They don't know how clever sampling is done (time stretching, pitch shifting, removing mid-range) just for maybe some horns which add more of an effect than an actual lead line. Again, I tell these people to listen to some Digable Planets/Shabazz Palaces or DJ Shadow records and honestly tell me if you don't think there is any skill involed in that.

I think we understand, but from what I've underlined:

time stretching: from what's already been done

pitch shifting: from what's already been done

removing mid-range: from what's already been done

This is why songwriting is more substantial then sampling. Sampling reintroduces forgotten songs and gets songwriters paid. No one is disputing that. But still, we're talking about what is more creative, what's more musicianly, what's more digging-in-the-dirt harder.

I say songwriting and playing.

CynicKill said:

larksanders said:

I'm telling you it's a generational thing. There are some people who think all sampling is is looping a track and maybe putting some other drums on it then having someone mix it and there you go (true if you're Puffy). They don't know how clever sampling is done (time stretching, pitch shifting, removing mid-range) just for maybe some horns which add more of an effect than an actual lead line. Again, I tell these people to listen to some Digable Planets/Shabazz Palaces or DJ Shadow records and honestly tell me if you don't think there is any skill involed in that.

I think we understand, but from what I've underlined:

time stretching: from what's already been done

pitch shifting: from what's already been done

removing mid-range: from what's already been done

This is why songwriting is more substantial then sampling. Sampling reintroduces forgotten songs and gets songwriters paid. No one is disputing that. But still, we're talking about what is more creative, what's more musicianly, what's more digging-in-the-dirt harder.

I say songwriting and playing.

Seems thay are NOT reading or listening 2 logic.

Graycap23 said:

CynicKill said:

I think we understand, but from what I've underlined:

time stretching: from what's already been done

pitch shifting: from what's already been done

removing mid-range: from what's already been done

This is why songwriting is more substantial then sampling. Sampling reintroduces forgotten songs and gets songwriters paid. No one is disputing that. But still, we're talking about what is more creative, what's more musicianly, what's more digging-in-the-dirt harder.

I say songwriting and playing.

Seems thay are NOT reading or listening 2 logic.

Who's logic though? Everything that I outlined there is just a piece of creating music (using a sample). What about the music that goes around it. Again, I said that doing thise creatively is will be for some horns which add more of an effect than an actual lead line. Just because it's already there doesn't negate the fact that creating everything around it or making it sound like something different isn't just as hard. They have to put there own ideas in there as well. That's like saying that playing a solo should be easy because the chords are already laid out. But I understand how you work Graycap "I'm a musician, I create" FOH....

larksanders said:

Graycap23 said:

Seems thay are NOT reading or listening 2 logic.

Who's logic though? Everything that I outlined there is just a piece of creating music (using a sample). What about the music that goes around it. Again, I said that doing thise creatively is will be for some horns which add more of an effect than an actual lead line. Just because it's already there doesn't negate the fact that creating everything around it or making it sound like something different isn't just as hard. They have to put there own ideas in there as well. That's like saying that playing a solo should be easy because the chords are already laid out. But I understand how you work Graycap "I'm a musician, I create" FOH....

........OBVIOUSLY u do NOT.

Polow Da Don used that rationale to explain why his production of "Love In This Club" by Usher was in his estimation an original composition. He said well, I wrote lyrics for it, I created the verses and choruses. But what he failed to understand is that the crux of the track was what he sampled from Garage Band.

My arguement is that ANYONE could've come up with SOME verses and choruses for a track that is already done, which isn't as easy as it sounds sure. But I say it was much harder for the musician that was hired by Garage Band to create the loop then it was for Polow to sample it and build a song around.

CynicKill said:

Polow Da Don used that rationale to explain why his production of "Love In This Club" by Usher was in his estimation an original composition. He said well, I wrote lyrics for it, I created the verses and choruses. But what he failed to understand is that the crux of the track was what he sampled from Garage Band.

My arguement is that ANYONE could've come up with SOME verses and choruses for a track that is already done, which isn't as easy as it sounds sure. But I say it was much harder for the musician that was hired by Garage Band to create the loop then it was for Polow to sample it and build a song around.

I'm not following you. How was the musician hired by Garage Band? That's just a program (like pro-tools) that comes with just about every apple computer you buy. You have to start somewhere. Also, you're naming someone who probably did something as simple as take the sample and build drums around it. My whole arguement was about if used creatively. That's just like saying that pop music is generic and has no orginality etc etc.. or a house track that used sampled drums was easy to make because the drums were sampled. what about the chord progressions, the way he cut up the sample to make a new sounds etc?

Yeah, nevermind. I have come to the conclusion that those who argue against it has never done it. I still respect you, well you CynicKill

larksanders said:

CynicKill said:

Polow Da Don used that rationale to explain why his production of "Love In This Club" by Usher was in his estimation an original composition. He said well, I wrote lyrics for it, I created the verses and choruses. But what he failed to understand is that the crux of the track was what he sampled from Garage Band.

My arguement is that ANYONE could've come up with SOME verses and choruses for a track that is already done, which isn't as easy as it sounds sure. But I say it was much harder for the musician that was hired by Garage Band to create the loop then it was for Polow to sample it and build a song around.

I'm not following you. How was the musician hired by Garage Band? That's just a program (like pro-tools) that comes with just about every apple computer you buy. You have to start somewhere. Also, you're naming someone who probably did something as simple as take the sample and build drums around it. My whole arguement was about if used creatively. That's just like saying that pop music is generic and has no orginality etc etc.. or a house track that used sampled drums was easy to make because the drums were sampled. what about the chord progressions, the way he cut up the sample to make a new sounds etc?

Yeah, nevermind. I have come to the conclusion that those who argue against it has never done it. I still respect you, well you CynicKill

But u would be wrong. I create tracks 4 clients all the time using samples.........these hip hop heads around here want that.

larksanders said:

CynicKill said:

Polow Da Don used that rationale to explain why his production of "Love In This Club" by Usher was in his estimation an original composition. He said well, I wrote lyrics for it, I created the verses and choruses. But what he failed to understand is that the crux of the track was what he sampled from Garage Band.

My arguement is that ANYONE could've come up with SOME verses and choruses for a track that is already done, which isn't as easy as it sounds sure. But I say it was much harder for the musician that was hired by Garage Band to create the loop then it was for Polow to sample it and build a song around.

I'm not following you. How was the musician hired by Garage Band? That's just a program (like pro-tools) that comes with just about every apple computer you buy. You have to start somewhere. Also, you're naming someone who probably did something as simple as take the sample and build drums around it. My whole arguement was about if used creatively. That's just like saying that pop music is generic and has no orginality etc etc.. or a house track that used sampled drums was easy to make because the drums were sampled. what about the chord progressions, the way he cut up the sample to make a new sounds etc?

Yeah, nevermind. I have come to the conclusion that those who argue against it has never done it. I still respect you, well you CynicKill

I could've sworn that those programs (Garage band, Pro Tools et al..) have people on staff to come up with loops. Am I wrong?

And I'll agree there are degrees of sampling. I just break out into a rash when I hear people talk about how much of a "genius" Kanye is. I like him a lot. His albums are probably the best hip hop albums out there. But I reserve the term genius for people like Prince and Stevie Wonder.

CynicKill said:

larksanders said:

I'm not following you. How was the musician hired by Garage Band? That's just a program (like pro-tools) that comes with just about every apple computer you buy. You have to start somewhere. Also, you're naming someone who probably did something as simple as take the sample and build drums around it. My whole arguement was about if used creatively. That's just like saying that pop music is generic and has no orginality etc etc.. or a house track that used sampled drums was easy to make because the drums were sampled. what about the chord progressions, the way he cut up the sample to make a new sounds etc?

Yeah, nevermind. I have come to the conclusion that those who argue against it has never done it. I still respect you, well you CynicKill

I could've sworn that those programs (Garage band, Pro Tools et al..) have people on staff to come up with loops. Am I wrong?

And I'll agree there are degrees of sampling. I just break out into a rash when I hear people talk about how much of a "genius" Kanye is. I like him a lot. His albums are probably the best hip hop albums out there. But I reserve the term genius for people like Prince and Stevie Wonder.

I'm not sure I am following you regarding garge band and pro-tools being on staff to create loops.

And I would agree that I don't think that Kanye is a genius. He is however a very very good producer. He knows what sounds works well with others (hell, Quincy Jones did the same thing for off the wall and Thriller), and he knows how to construct pretty damn good records.

larksanders said:

CynicKill said:

I could've sworn that those programs (Garage band, Pro Tools et al..) have people on staff to come up with loops. Am I wrong?

And I'll agree there are degrees of sampling. I just break out into a rash when I hear people talk about how much of a "genius" Kanye is. I like him a lot. His albums are probably the best hip hop albums out there. But I reserve the term genius for people like Prince and Stevie Wonder.

I'm not sure I am following you regarding garge band and pro-tools being on staff to create loops.

And I would agree that I don't think that Kanye is a genius. He is however a very very good producer. He knows what sounds works well with others (hell, Quincy Jones did the same thing for off the wall and Thriller), and he knows how to construct pretty damn good records.

For example there's a sample cd called "Megaton House Bomb" that has house loops and samples on it. Everything on this cd was created by Matt Haines, Allen Avanessian and Nick Tidy.

Everything sung on the cd was sung by Elaine Stepter.

And you might've started a whole new arguement: You just equated Kanye West to Quincy Jones! LOL

j/k*

CynicKill said:

larksanders said:

I'm not sure I am following you regarding garge band and pro-tools being on staff to create loops.

And I would agree that I don't think that Kanye is a genius. He is however a very very good producer. He knows what sounds works well with others (hell, Quincy Jones did the same thing for off the wall and Thriller), and he knows how to construct pretty damn good records.

For example there's a sample cd called "Megaton House Bomb" that has house loops and samples on it. Everything on this cd was created by Matt Haines, Allen Avanessian and Nick Tidy.

Everything sung on the cd was sung by Elaine Stepter.

And you might've started a whole new arguement: You just equated Kanye West to Quincy Jones! LOL

j/k*

You know, as soon as I typed that I thought I hope someone didn't think I was teying to say Kayne is equal to Quincy in terms of greatness. By no means am I saying that at all.

And yeah, I know what you mean about people who create sample disks. Some create them for programs like fruity loops, ableton, garage band. That's mainly for those starting out sampling (no sampling rights are needed). I'm talking about those cats who dig through crates. Have you ever of Gotye? That dude is amazing. He samples as well as plays instruments. He has this video about how he created his last album. No way you can look at that and tell me the kid doesn't have skill.

Oh here is another example of someone who samples well. Dig how dude incorporated the linn drumm in there (sampled). http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1...20Time.mp3

For all you who didn't know, Kanye got a team of people who dig for samples for him. So it's not nearly as amazing as it seems.