purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

I hear what you're saying, but really he treated all of the women the same. I actually think Mayte got the worst of it. She was very young and he took advantage of that. He was with many women from '90-'95, and the marriage came suddenly in early '96. He did an interview with a London journalist in '95 and stated he had no plans to marry anyone. I think the marriage happened because of the pregnancy - again, just my opinion. Mayte has stated that during their relationship, including during their marriage, she could not contact him. She had to wait for him to call her. So really, his behavior never changed - married or not. When he married Manuela he was deep into the JW faith, and clearly trying to live by those beliiefs and principles. However, that didn't last long either.

*

I agree with the fact that he also tried to control Susannah, and no doubt thought she would continue to accept it, and would not leave him. However, when she did leave I think it affected him deeply and he wanted her back for a long time.

*

I also agree that actions speak louder than words, but Prince communicated his thoughts and feelings through his music more than anything else, regardless of how he acted, so we can't take that with a grain of salt. I really think he was the most honest in his songs. Being alone with his thoughts and recording those vocals, and most of the muisic by himself, allowed him to be open with his feelings - something he would not do in public.

*

If you read the lyrics to Forever In My Life, he's admitting to being a womanizer ("juggling hearts in a three ring circus, someday drive a body down to the ground") and he's saying he never expected to fall in love ("I never imagined that love would rain on me, and make me want to settle down. Baby it's true, I think I do, and I just want to tell you that I want it with you"). He's telling her how much he cares about her ("You are my future, you are my hero, when I am with you I got no past, no"). So, if you really listen to the song and the lyrics they are quite deep. Now, does that mean he would have changed his behavior in the relationship if she had moved back to MN? Probably not - at least not permanently. But I think his thoughts and words were geniune. He never wrote the more serious songs just for the heck of it. There was meaning in them for him.

yes in my reply #84 i said that i thought he treated/loved them all the same "all boiled down"

and Susannah was not an exception. i just feel like the 2 he married actually got the carrot of marriage if that is the goal for someone willing to be strung along. i feel like he treated and she (susannah) took awful treatment for him. loving and losing and writting about it was his formula

it was his magic soup pot. That was a basket of fish that kept on giving. that was too easy and

formulaic for it to be deep each and eveytime (imo) he was using the formula for all it was worth. sure he got caught up in at times i am sure falling in love with the co Star. to me kinda like

boy bands are a formula, pop music is devised by formula. he was a master at it, a genuis, a true

puppeteer. (his love of puppets). Disney had a formula, so did Prince and both were masterful at it. storytelling in a magic potion if done right. he aced marketing 101 with his concoction. he is awesome in

that regard a true business man. it was just about the music, and it was/is great music.

Curious how many times was JOhn L married, twice?? i think Prince was his father's son.

After listening to the Piano Mic shows,he did seem to be having some regrets over lost relationships. Of course it could have been for dramatic effect but at times he sounded broken and sincere. He also seemed to be having a dialogue with someone,almost like he was acting out conversations he may have had with different lovers. It's interesting to listen to and made me wonder what was going on in his mind at the time. I agree that he seemed to learn his behavior from his father. He commented in an interview in the mid 80's-I think it was RS-that his dad had a lot of girlfriends and he talked like he admired that about him. I also remember reading somewhere that Prince said that one of his biggest fears was a woman finding him unattractive so he had to prove to himself that he could get any girl. I don't recall where I read that-it may have been here.

pinkcashmere23 said:

purplefam99 said:

yes in my reply #84 i said that i thought he treated/loved them all the same "all boiled down"

and Susannah was not an exception. i just feel like the 2 he married actually got the carrot of marriage if that is the goal for someone willing to be strung along. i feel like he treated and she (susannah) took awful treatment for him. loving and losing and writting about it was his formula

it was his magic soup pot. That was a basket of fish that kept on giving. that was too easy and

formulaic for it to be deep each and eveytime (imo) he was using the formula for all it was worth. sure he got caught up in at times i am sure falling in love with the co Star. to me kinda like

boy bands are a formula, pop music is devised by formula. he was a master at it, a genuis, a true

puppeteer. (his love of puppets). Disney had a formula, so did Prince and both were masterful at it. storytelling in a magic potion if done right. he aced marketing 101 with his concoction. he is awesome in

that regard a true business man. it was just about the music, and it was/is great music.

Curious how many times was JOhn L married, twice?? i think Prince was his father's son.

After listening to the Piano Mic shows,he did seem to be having some regrets over lost relationships. Of course it could have been for dramatic effect but at times he sounded broken and sincere. He also seemed to be having a dialogue with someone,almost like he was acting out conversations he may have had with different lovers. It's interesting to listen to and made me wonder what was going on in his mind at the time. I agree that he seemed to learn his behavior from his father. He commented in an interview in the mid 80's-I think it was RS-that his dad had a lot of girlfriends and he talked like he admired that about him. I also remember reading somewhere that Prince said that one of his biggest fears was a woman finding him unattractive so he had to prove to himself that he could get any girl. I don't recall where I read that-it may have been here.

yes pink.^^ i think this is a steady hallmark of all his music that remained till the end. i think that he perhaps just thought what can i say about the fight i just had with this girl in an interesting way and then set about doing just that. he was a good storyteller. i do think it

was a lot of formula. i don't think formula is a bad thing either. my feeling about P&M

is that it was intended largely to be a show to entertain us mostly and he used dramatic effects to make us

listen and bits of reflection threads were used to weave the story he wanted to tell. i will leave room, of course, that it may be otherwise.

eta, when i say formula i don't mean to in anyway reduce it to two ingredients, it was a specially

blended compound, his personally concoction of the mad scientist variety, but a recipe still. imo

[Edited 10/29/18 11:02am]

I think it was Cat B who quoted a German performer (actor?)

Paraphrasing; If you have been truly loved by one person, you would not feel the need to seduce over and over.

pinkcashmere23 said:

purplefam99 said:

yes in my reply #84 i said that i thought he treated/loved them all the same "all boiled down"

and Susannah was not an exception. i just feel like the 2 he married actually got the carrot of marriage if that is the goal for someone willing to be strung along. i feel like he treated and she (susannah) took awful treatment for him. loving and losing and writting about it was his formula

it was his magic soup pot. That was a basket of fish that kept on giving. that was too easy and

formulaic for it to be deep each and eveytime (imo) he was using the formula for all it was worth. sure he got caught up in at times i am sure falling in love with the co Star. to me kinda like

boy bands are a formula, pop music is devised by formula. he was a master at it, a genuis, a true

puppeteer. (his love of puppets). Disney had a formula, so did Prince and both were masterful at it. storytelling in a magic potion if done right. he aced marketing 101 with his concoction. he is awesome in

that regard a true business man. it was just about the music, and it was/is great music.

Curious how many times was JOhn L married, twice?? i think Prince was his father's son.

After listening to the Piano Mic shows,he did seem to be having some regrets over lost relationships. Of course it could have been for dramatic effect but at times he sounded broken and sincere. He also seemed to be having a dialogue with someone,almost like he was acting out conversations he may have had with different lovers. It's interesting to listen to and made me wonder what was going on in his mind at the time. I agree that he seemed to learn his behavior from his father. He commented in an interview in the mid 80's-I think it was RS-that his dad had a lot of girlfriends and he talked like he admired that about him. I also remember reading somewhere that Prince said that one of his biggest fears was a woman finding him unattractive so he had to prove to himself that he could get any girl. I don't recall where I read that-it may have been here.

peggyon said:

Truly loved by “one” person. Surely then he met that criteria.
I’m sure at least 5 women could say they truly loved him.
Or do you mean something else by the quote that I’m not getting.

Not sure since it wasn't my quote. I took it to mean childhood parental love or love from another significant other in early childhood. A love that was felt.

purplefam99 said:

peggyon said:

I think it was Cat B who quoted a German performer (actor?)

Paraphrasing; If you have been truly loved by one person, you would not feel the need to seduce over and over.

Truly loved by “one” person. Surely then he met that criteria. I’m sure at least 5 women could say they truly loved him. Or do you mean something else by the quote that I’m not getting.

purplefam99 said:

pinkcashmere23 said:

After listening to the Piano Mic shows,he did seem to be having some regrets over lost relationships. Of course it could have been for dramatic effect but at times he sounded broken and sincere. He also seemed to be having a dialogue with someone,almost like he was acting out conversations he may have had with different lovers. It's interesting to listen to and made me wonder what was going on in his mind at the time. I agree that he seemed to learn his behavior from his father. He commented in an interview in the mid 80's-I think it was RS-that his dad had a lot of girlfriends and he talked like he admired that about him. I also remember reading somewhere that Prince said that one of his biggest fears was a woman finding him unattractive so he had to prove to himself that he could get any girl. I don't recall where I read that-it may have been here.

yes pink.^^ i think this is a steady hallmark of all his music that remained till the end. i think that he perhaps just thought what can i say about the fight i just had with this girl in an interesting way and then set about doing just that. he was a good storyteller. i do think it

was a lot of formula. i don't think formula is a bad thing either. my feeling about P&M

is that it was intended largely to be a show to entertain us mostly and he used dramatic effects to make us

listen and bits of reflection threads were used to weave the story he wanted to tell. i will leave room, of course, that it may be otherwise.

eta, when i say formula i don't mean to in anyway reduce it to two ingredients, it was a specially

blended compound, his personally concoction of the mad scientist variety, but a recipe still. imo

[Edited 10/29/18 11:02am]

I think it's a bit cynical and presumptious to think that Prince's songs, especially the love songs, were based solely on a marketing concoction. They were way too personal, creative and specific for that to be the case. Songs like If I Was Your Girlfriend, Condition Of The Heart, 3 Chains O'Gold, and Goodbye are just incredibile deeply emotional songs. Even the angry ones like Violet The Organ Grinder are so specific - he is clearly communicating to the woman in that song. I don't think he played out his life to create the songs, rather, he created the songs as a result of how his life played out. The songs were a reaction to what was happening to him at that time.

*

I think his issues with women and relationships stemmed from his childhood - his obseravation of how his Father handled relationships and also his exposure to the community around him and what was happening there. He was a child of the 60's and early 70's, a time when women were not always respected or treated well in relationships.

*

I agree with Pink that he seemed to be reflecting quite a bit even prior to the P&M tour. Songs like The Breakdown, Revelation, and even Indifference, which speaks to a woman who hurt him many times ("If you and I were alone in a quiet place, I'd make you lick the tears off my face, cuz you put each one of them there"). There's another song, "Shoulda Coulda Woulda" that is on Larry Graham's album, but Prince is all over the track, so I'm sure he wrote it. I wish Prince would have released it, because his backround vocal is so good. The song is about his regret of not being more honest with a woman and telling her how much he loved her before it was too late. The song Strange But True is another one ("You're the only one that I gave it to, the one I fantasized for, and time away from you has taught me what I should've known - that this hole I've been trying to fill with another, yeah it's grown")

*

I just think his lyrics were too deep, too specific, and too original to be considered "planned marketing" concoctions. He definitely had some of those "concocted" songs, but I think most were honest with regard to his life and feelings.

[Edited 10/29/18 15:34pm]

purplefam99 said:

PennyPurple said:

No Mayte and him did not get married because she was pregnant. She wasn't pregnant when they got married. I forgot the date he asked her to marry but I think it was Oct or Nov which was 4 months before they married. That would be a very long pregnancy. LOL So to say that was why he got married, is wrong.

Lot's of people say they will never get married, just like Prince said, and he was married twice.

He controlled ALL of them, and he liked them young.

penny that is also how i understand the timeline of events.^^^

violet if you have other timeline info that shows otherwise please share, thx.

Where is it confirmed that Prince asked Mayte to marry him in the Fall of '95? Are there any photos of her with an engagement ring during that time? Just curious, because I know the wedding happened suddenly and was planned in about 2 weeks. Also, engaged does not always result in marriage as we saw happen with Susannah. Engaged or not, I think the actual wedding happened because she got pregnant.

*

This is an interview from Time Out magazine March 1995:

*

Aaaah.’ Big pause. He looks away. All right then. What about marriage, then? Any plans to singlehandedly put Durex out of business by having lots of little s?

’Not really,’ smirks the compact sex symbol. ’I decided that things like family don’t have a big part to play in my future. I’m dedicated to music, to the point that I see all of life through it.’

What would seem like a flippant, sentimental declaration from any other pop star becomes a fierce declaration of humanism from the mouth of . The past two weeks have seen him deliver night after night of rambunctious boilerhouse funk while the psychedelic harems of his mind are recreated on stage around him. ’A couple of years ago perhaps,’ he concludes, ’I had a spiritual, uh...rebirth. I was lacking direction for a very long time. But I saw a light which I realised I had to follow. At that point I became...’ points to a drape bearing his hieroglyphic name...

violetcrush said:

purplefam99 said:

penny that is also how i understand the timeline of events.^^^

violet if you have other timeline info that shows otherwise please share, thx.

Where is it confirmed that Prince asked Mayte to marry him in the Fall of '95? Are there any photos of her with an engagement ring during that time? Just curious, because I know the wedding happened suddenly and was planned in about 2 weeks. Also, engaged does not always result in marriage as we saw happen with Susannah. Engaged or not, I think the actual wedding happened because she got pregnant.

*

This is an interview from Time Out magazine March 1995:

*

Aaaah.’ Big pause. He looks away. All right then. What about marriage, then? Any plans to singlehandedly put Durex out of business by having lots of little s?

’Not really,’ smirks the compact sex symbol. ’I decided that things like family don’t have a big part to play in my future. I’m dedicated to music, to the point that I see all of life through it.’

What would seem like a flippant, sentimental declaration from any other pop star becomes a fierce declaration of humanism from the mouth of . The past two weeks have seen him deliver night after night of rambunctious boilerhouse funk while the psychedelic harems of his mind are recreated on stage around him. ’A couple of years ago perhaps,’ he concludes, ’I had a spiritual, uh...rebirth. I was lacking direction for a very long time. But I saw a light which I realised I had to follow. At that point I became...’ points to a drape bearing his hieroglyphic name...

It was in Maytes book. Don't know about pictures with the engagement ring. When was the concert that he invited Nona to, where Nona seen the engagement ring, when Mayte flashed it? That's when Nona found out.

But so many stories go around you never know what to think. Mayte could be lying?? Don't know. I think it was Carmen, Nona, Mayte at the same time. So who knows. Actually nothing surprises me any more with his wives and associates.

If it's true about Mayte, then both wives pulled the wool over his eyes.

And again, a lot of men said they would never get married, my husband was one of those and we've been married for 34 1/2 years now.

[Edited 10/29/18 15:35pm]

PennyPurple said:

violetcrush said:

Where is it confirmed that Prince asked Mayte to marry him in the Fall of '95? Are there any photos of her with an engagement ring during that time? Just curious, because I know the wedding happened suddenly and was planned in about 2 weeks. Also, engaged does not always result in marriage as we saw happen with Susannah. Engaged or not, I think the actual wedding happened because she got pregnant.

*

This is an interview from Time Out magazine March 1995:

*

Aaaah.’ Big pause. He looks away. All right then. What about marriage, then? Any plans to singlehandedly put Durex out of business by having lots of little s?

’Not really,’ smirks the compact sex symbol. ’I decided that things like family don’t have a big part to play in my future. I’m dedicated to music, to the point that I see all of life through it.’

What would seem like a flippant, sentimental declaration from any other pop star becomes a fierce declaration of humanism from the mouth of . The past two weeks have seen him deliver night after night of rambunctious boilerhouse funk while the psychedelic harems of his mind are recreated on stage around him. ’A couple of years ago perhaps,’ he concludes, ’I had a spiritual, uh...rebirth. I was lacking direction for a very long time. But I saw a light which I realised I had to follow. At that point I became...’ points to a drape bearing his hieroglyphic name...

It was in Maytes book. Don't know about pictures with the engagement ring. When was the concert that he invited Nona to, where Nona seen the engagement ring, when Mayte flashed it? That's when Nona found out.

But so many stories go around you never know what to think. Mayte could be lying?? Don't know. I think it was Carmen, Nona, Mayte at the same time. So who knows. Actually nothing surprises me any more with his wives and associates.

If it's true about Mayte, then both wives pulled the wool over his eyes.

Certainly possible that he gave her a ring in Fall of '95, but my thought is that there was no wedding planned in the near future. I think she got the positive pregnancy test, and they did the quick ceremony in order for the timing to mesh with the pregnancy. I could be wrong though. Just my thought based on his interviews like the one above, and also the songs on the earlier configurations of Emancipation. The songs on that album relating the the marriage/baby were all recorded early '96.

[Edited 10/29/18 16:01pm]

violetcrush said:

I am willing to go 50/50 on the concoctions. I think a fair share were his versions of his personal soap opera. I think he lived his life and wrote about and embellished a lot of it for dramatic effect. I think he played up the regret and hurt in some songs because that makes a great song. Always has. I don’t doubt that some songs may contain genuine feelings of hurt or loneliness I just don’t think that volume of material was generated from each time a deep deep place of hurt or love. I think sometimes it was “ooooh I made her mad as heck in the club, we exchanged some words, later I’m gonna write a song about that”. And then later at 4am after watching a sappy movie he did just that and then maybe call her and play the song over the phone and say I wrote this for you. Imo. But hey maybe I’m wrong.
[Edited 10/29/18 19:32pm]

purplefam99 said:

pinkcashmere23 said:

After listening to the Piano Mic shows,he did seem to be having some regrets over lost relationships. Of course it could have been for dramatic effect but at times he sounded broken and sincere. He also seemed to be having a dialogue with someone,almost like he was acting out conversations he may have had with different lovers. It's interesting to listen to and made me wonder what was going on in his mind at the time. I agree that he seemed to learn his behavior from his father. He commented in an interview in the mid 80's-I think it was RS-that his dad had a lot of girlfriends and he talked like he admired that about him. I also remember reading somewhere that Prince said that one of his biggest fears was a woman finding him unattractive so he had to prove to himself that he could get any girl. I don't recall where I read that-it may have been here.

yes pink.^^ i think this is a steady hallmark of all his music that remained till the end. i think that he perhaps just thought what can i say about the fight i just had with this girl in an interesting way and then set about doing just that. he was a good storyteller. i do think it

was a lot of formula. i don't think formula is a bad thing either. my feeling about P&M

is that it was intended largely to be a show to entertain us mostly and he used dramatic effects to make us

listen and bits of reflection threads were used to weave the story he wanted to tell. i will leave room, of course, that it may be otherwise.

eta, when i say formula i don't mean to in anyway reduce it to two ingredients, it was a specially

blended compound, his personally concoction of the mad scientist variety, but a recipe still. imo

[Edited 10/29/18 11:02am]

Yes,I agree that he was a good story teller and that he used situations that probably happened in his relationships for subject matter. The P&M shows did seem to be a reflection of his life from childhood up till then and he seemed to cover a few key events that shaped him into the person he had become.The first show at Paisley, he seemed to be portraying himself as a child trying to emulate his dad's piano playing. I think that it's also possible that he was softening a bit with the personal issues that he was dealing with.To me,he sounded more open and honest,particularly during the shows in Australia, Oakland and Canada. I noted that he was stressing the importance of taking care of and loving one another as well. His performance of "Thieves In The Temple"at one of the shows in Oakland was especially dramatic and the things he was saying were a bit troubling. He sounded very upset and almost like he was reaching out for help.

pinkcashmere23 said:

I can see your view.
I do think he may have felt the curtain inching in from the wings. Natural as we age, more natural if you know your body is limping along. What he did was great!
He is great! The music is great! He is loved.

I also now believe that he married her as she was pregnant. I am beginning to doubt a number of Mayte's claims which is unfortunate as she seemed so sincere in her book.

Did I hear there was pressure from her mother to marry as well?

She seems to crave alot of attention as well. 2.5 years later...

violetcrush said:

PennyPurple said:

It was in Maytes book. Don't know about pictures with the engagement ring. When was the concert that he invited Nona to, where Nona seen the engagement ring, when Mayte flashed it? That's when Nona found out.

But so many stories go around you never know what to think. Mayte could be lying?? Don't know. I think it was Carmen, Nona, Mayte at the same time. So who knows. Actually nothing surprises me any more with his wives and associates.

If it's true about Mayte, then both wives pulled the wool over his eyes.

Certainly possible that he gave her a ring in Fall of '95, but my thought is that there was no wedding planned in the near future. I think she got the positive pregnancy test, and they did the quick ceremony in order for the timing to mesh with the pregnancy. I could be wrong though. Just my thought based on his interviews like the one above, and also the songs on the earlier configurations of Emancipation. The songs on that album relating the the marriage/baby were all recorded early '96.

[Edited 10/29/18 16:01pm]

[Edited 10/29/18 20:10pm]

peggyon said:

I think it was Cat B who quoted a German performer (actor?)

Paraphrasing; If you have been truly loved by one person, you would not feel the need to seduce over and over.

pinkcashmere23 said:

After listening to the Piano Mic shows,he did seem to be having some regrets over lost relationships. Of course it could have been for dramatic effect but at times he sounded broken and sincere. He also seemed to be having a dialogue with someone,almost like he was acting out conversations he may have had with different lovers. It's interesting to listen to and made me wonder what was going on in his mind at the time. I agree that he seemed to learn his behavior from his father. He commented in an interview in the mid 80's-I think it was RS-that his dad had a lot of girlfriends and he talked like he admired that about him. I also remember reading somewhere that Prince said that one of his biggest fears was a woman finding him unattractive so he had to prove to himself that he could get any girl. I don't recall where I read that-it may have been here.

Thanks peggyon. I thought that it may have been her that said something along those lines.

peggyon said:

Well the timeline in her book sounded legit. If she were pregnant before
That would as penny said have been a long pregnancy. Hmmm interesting.
I will agree I thought they got pregnant quick. Not sure.

purplefam99 said:

pinkcashmere23 said:

Yes,I agree that he was a good story teller and that he used situations that probably happened in his relationships for subject matter. The P&M shows did seem to be a reflection of his life from childhood up till then and he seemed to cover a few key events that shaped him into the person he had become.The first show at Paisley, he seemed to be portraying himself as a child trying to emulate his dad's piano playing. I think that it's also possible that he was softening a bit with the personal issues that he was dealing with.To me,he sounded more open and honest,particularly during the shows in Australia, Oakland and Canada. I noted that he was stressing the importance of taking care of and loving one another as well. His performance of "Thieves In The Temple"at one of the shows in Oakland was especially dramatic and the things he was saying were a bit troubling. He sounded very upset and almost like he was reaching out for help.

I can see your view. I do think he may have felt the curtain inching in from the wings. Natural as we age, more natural if you know your body is limping along. What he did was great! He is great! The music is great! He is loved.

Absolutely.

peggyon said:

I also now believe that he married her as she was pregnant. I am beginning to doubt a number of Mayte's claims which is unfortunate as she seemed so sincere in her book.

Did I hear there was pressure from her mother to marry as well?

She seems to crave alot of attention as well. 2.5 years later...

[Edited 10/29/18 20:10pm]

Yeah, me too. All the fans want is the truth, sorry she couldn't be so truthful.

PennyPurple said:

peggyon said:

I also now believe that he married her as she was pregnant. I am beginning to doubt a number of Mayte's claims which is unfortunate as she seemed so sincere in her book.

Did I hear there was pressure from her mother to marry as well?

She seems to crave alot of attention as well. 2.5 years later...

[Edited 10/29/18 20:10pm]

Yeah, me too. All the fans want is the truth, sorry she couldn't be so truthful.

I had read other posts on prior threads here which stated that her time with Prince may have been limited, so then the pregnancy happened. That may be a stretch though. If Prince really did give her a ring Fall of '95 then something major shifted with him from earlier that year.

*

My opinion of her is not a high one - going back to her stint on Hollywood Ex's, dating Tommy Lee (really??), and trying to profit off of Prince's personal items long before he passed. From what I understand her book had also been completed prior to his death. That being said, she got a raw deal for the many years she spent with him. Tragic loss of a child, and then bumped out and replaced by another woman not long after.

*

Her continuing with the story of being pregnant before the wedding is understandable though, as I doubt she would change that at this point, after years of telling the same story. Interestingly, she is on video, during one of her discussions on Hollywood Ex's, stating that the baby was "full term", which would mean carried to or very close to the due date which was mid November. The story all along has been that the baby was born one month premature. If not, then conception would most likely have been early to mid January, which would explain the few weeks of wedding planning, and then the ceremony held on Feb 14th.

*

Interestingly, only a few months later Prince was rushed to the hospital after taking too many pills - I believe it was April 21st of all dates. Mayte recently discussed this on a podcast. This is surprising to me, as you would think it would have been one of the happiest times for him - marriage and baby on the way - yet he was clearly unhappy enough to take an overdose of pills.

[Edited 10/30/18 5:34am]

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

I think it's a bit cynical and presumptious to think that Prince's songs, especially the love songs, were based solely on a marketing concoction. They were way too personal, creative and specific for that to be the case. Songs like If I Was Your Girlfriend, Condition Of The Heart, 3 Chains O'Gold, and Goodbye are just incredibile deeply emotional songs. Even the angry ones like Violet The Organ Grinder are so specific - he is clearly communicating to the woman in that song. I don't think he played out his life to create the songs, rather, he created the songs as a result of how his life played out. The songs were a reaction to what was happening to him at that time.

*

I think his issues with women and relationships stemmed from his childhood - his obseravation of how his Father handled relationships and also his exposure to the community around him and what was happening there. He was a child of the 60's and early 70's, a time when women were not always respected or treated well in relationships.

*

I agree with Pink that he seemed to be reflecting quite a bit even prior to the P&M tour. Songs like The Breakdown, Revelation, and even Indifference, which speaks to a woman who hurt him many times ("If you and I were alone in a quiet place, I'd make you lick the tears off my face, cuz you put each one of them there"). There's another song, "Shoulda Coulda Woulda" that is on Larry Graham's album, but Prince is all over the track, so I'm sure he wrote it. I wish Prince would have released it, because his backround vocal is so good. The song is about his regret of not being more honest with a woman and telling her how much he loved her before it was too late. The song Strange But True is another one ("You're the only one that I gave it to, the one I fantasized for, and time away from you has taught me what I should've known - that this hole I've been trying to fill with another, yeah it's grown")

*

I just think his lyrics were too deep, too specific, and too original to be considered "planned marketing" concoctions. He definitely had some of those "concocted" songs, but I think most were honest with regard to his life and feelings.

[Edited 10/29/18 15:34pm]

I am willing to go 50/50 on the concoctions. I think a fair share were his versions of his personal soap opera. I think he lived his life and wrote about and embellished a lot of it for dramatic effect. I think he played up the regret and hurt in some songs because that makes a great song. Always has. I don’t doubt that some songs may contain genuine feelings of hurt or loneliness I just don’t think that volume of material was generated from each time a deep deep place of hurt or love. I think sometimes it was “ooooh I made her mad as heck in the club, we exchanged some words, later I’m gonna write a song about that”. And then later at 4am after watching a sappy movie he did just that and then maybe call her and play the song over the phone and say I wrote this for you. Imo. But hey maybe I’m wrong. [Edited 10/29/18 19:32pm]

My take is maybe 80/20 on the geniune vs. concoctions. I think with the kind of life he led, not much embellishment would have been necessary I would agree that, from his perspective, the lyric probably ended up being more intense than the reality of the situation.

*

Susannah sort of revealed that when she discussed the song Empty Room during her interview with Toure. She said, "we'd had some sort of tift, and I left and he left, and then he found a piece of my hair in the bathroom on the window or the sink or something, and he was just so upset, and he had to write about it." I actually cannot believe he called the band back to the warehouse on Bobby Z's wedding day. Can't get much more self-involved than that!! At least he waited until after the ceremony and reception. Of course, Susannah may have played down the severity of the fight - who knows. My guess is that their fight was more intense based on the fact that he flew her to NY a few days later and bought her the ring. He also recorded the song "Go" during the same sessions, which describes the girl having cheated and wanting to leave him ("you promised my baby that you would never cheat. You did it anyway, and now you wanna leave me".)

*

So, I think his life truly was a soap opera of sorts. Lots and lots of inspiration for those songs

violetcrush said:

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said: I am willing to go 50/50 on the concoctions. I think a fair share were his versions of his personal soap opera. I think he lived his life and wrote about and embellished a lot of it for dramatic effect. I think he played up the regret and hurt in some songs because that makes a great song. Always has. I don’t doubt that some songs may contain genuine feelings of hurt or loneliness I just don’t think that volume of material was generated from each time a deep deep place of hurt or love. I think sometimes it was “ooooh I made her mad as heck in the club, we exchanged some words, later I’m gonna write a song about that”. And then later at 4am after watching a sappy movie he did just that and then maybe call her and play the song over the phone and say I wrote this for you. Imo. But hey maybe I’m wrong. [Edited 10/29/18 19:32pm]

My take is maybe 80/20 on the geniune vs. concoctions. I think with the kind of life he led, not much embellishment would have been necessary I would agree that, from his perspective, the lyric probably ended up being more intense than the reality of the situation.

*

Susannah sort of revealed that when she discussed the song Empty Room during her interview with Toure. She said, "we'd had some sort of tift, and I left and he left, and then he found a piece of my hair in the bathroom on the window or the sink or something, and he was just so upset, and he had to write about it." I actually cannot believe he called the band back to the warehouse on Bobby Z's wedding day. Can't get much more self-involved than that!! At least he waited until after the ceremony and reception. Of course, Susannah may have played down the severity of the fight - who knows. My guess is that their fight was more intense based on the fact that he flew her to NY a few days later and bought her the ring. He also recorded the song "Go" during the same sessions, which describes the girl having cheated and wanting to leave him ("you promised my baby that you would never cheat. You did it anyway, and now you wanna leave me".)

*

So, I think his life truly was a soap opera of sorts. Lots and lots of inspiration for those songs

I hadn't heard the story about Prince calling the band in on Bobby's wedding day. "Empty Room" is such an intense song that it would seem it would have been inspired by more than a tiff but I suppose he was likely imaging his life without her and it came from that place. It's so moving and he always sang it with such conviction, even later in his life. I really liked the rehearsal that he recorded with 3rd Eye Girl and I wonder if he was considering releasing a version with them. He must have really loved the song since he performed it so often.

He was also really struggling with leaving Warner Bros. and feeling pressured to succeed with Emancipation and it's distribution. IMO, the OD reflected that pressure. And, he may have been troubled with his marriage as well.

violetcrush said:

PennyPurple said:

Yeah, me too. All the fans want is the truth, sorry she couldn't be so truthful.

I had read other posts on prior threads here which stated that her time with Prince may have been limited, so then the pregnancy happened. That may be a stretch though. If Prince really did give her a ring Fall of '95 then something major shifted with him from earlier that year.

*

My opinion of her is not a high one - going back to her stint on Hollywood Ex's, dating Tommy Lee (really??), and trying to profit off of Prince's personal items long before he passed. From what I understand her book had also been completed prior to his death. That being said, she got a raw deal for the many years she spent with him. Tragic loss of a child, and then bumped out and replaced by another woman not long after.

*

Her continuing with the story of being pregnant before the wedding is understandable though, as I doubt she would change that at this point, after years of telling the same story. Interestingly, she is on video, during one of her discussions on Hollywood Ex's, stating that the baby was "full term", which would mean carried to or very close to the due date which was mid November. The story all along has been that the baby was born one month premature. If not, then conception would most likely have been early to mid January, which would explain the few weeks of wedding planning, and then the ceremony held on Feb 14th.

*

Interestingly, only a few months later Prince was rushed to the hospital after taking too many pills - I believe it was April 21st of all dates. Mayte recently discussed this on a podcast. This is surprising to me, as you would think it would have been one of the happiest times for him - marriage and baby on the way - yet he was clearly unhappy enough to take an overdose of pills.

[Edited 10/30/18 5:34am]

peggyon said:

He was also really struggling with leaving Warner Bros. and feeling pressured to succeed with Emancipation and it's distribution. IMO, the OD reflected that pressure. And, he may have been troubled with his marriage as well.

violetcrush said:

I had read other posts on prior threads here which stated that her time with Prince may have been limited, so then the pregnancy happened. That may be a stretch though. If Prince really did give her a ring Fall of '95 then something major shifted with him from earlier that year. the

*

My opinion of her is not a high one - going back to her stint on Hollywood Ex's, dating Tommy Lee (really??), and trying to profit off of Prince's personal items long before he passed. From what I understand her book had also been completed prior to his death. That being said, she got a raw deal for the many years she spent with him. Tragic loss of a child, and then bumped out and replaced by another woman not long after.

*

Her continuing with the story of being pregnant before the wedding is understandable though, as I doubt she would change that at this point, after years of telling the same story. Interestingly, she is on video, during one of her discussions on Hollywood Ex's, stating that the baby was "full term", which would mean carried to or very close to the due date which was mid November. The story all along has been that the baby was born one month premature. If not, then conception would most likely have been early to mid January, which would explain the few weeks of wedding planning, and then the ceremony held on Feb 14th.

*

Interestingly, only a few months later Prince was rushed to the hospital after taking too many pills - I believe it was April 21st of all dates. Mayte recently discussed this on a podcast. This is surprising to me, as you would think it would have been one of the happiest times for him - marriage and baby on the way - yet he was clearly unhappy enough to take an overdose of pills.

[Edited 10/30/18 5:34am]

Yes, I'm sure the stress and pressure of the WB battle may have been part of the reason for that incident, and also the fact that by that point he had lost a considerable portion of the fan base that he had in the 80's. Many of those kids had moved on to rap/hiphop or alternative music by the early 90's.

*

I do also see a connection with the early configurations of Emancipation and how he was feeling in that many of the songs were related to wanting someone back, and the final track for many months was going to be the song Goodbye - as in, realizing that whatever hope he had for reuniting with this woman was gone. Many of the songs that he left on the album were tied to missing and still loving someone who had left. Hard to say, but I definitely think the OD at that time was also a result of something personal going on with him. If he was really not "in love" with Mayte, and marrying her out of obligation to do the right thing, that had to be a huge weight to carry.

pinkcashmere23 said:

violetcrush said:

My take is maybe 80/20 on the geniune vs. concoctions. I think with the kind of life he led, not much embellishment would have been necessary I would agree that, from his perspective, the lyric probably ended up being more intense than the reality of the situation.

*

Susannah sort of revealed that when she discussed the song Empty Room during her interview with Toure. She said, "we'd had some sort of tift, and I left and he left, and then he found a piece of my hair in the bathroom on the window or the sink or something, and he was just so upset, and he had to write about it." I actually cannot believe he called the band back to the warehouse on Bobby Z's wedding day. Can't get much more self-involved than that!! At least he waited until after the ceremony and reception. Of course, Susannah may have played down the severity of the fight - who knows. My guess is that their fight was more intense based on the fact that he flew her to NY a few days later and bought her the ring. He also recorded the song "Go" during the same sessions, which describes the girl having cheated and wanting to leave him ("you promised my baby that you would never cheat. You did it anyway, and now you wanna leave me".)

*

So, I think his life truly was a soap opera of sorts. Lots and lots of inspiration for those songs

I hadn't heard the story about Prince calling the band in on Bobby's wedding day. "Empty Room" is such an intense song that it would seem it would have been inspired by more than a tiff but I suppose he was likely imaging his life without her and it came from that place. It's so moving and he always sang it with such conviction, even later in his life. I really liked the rehearsal that he recorded with 3rd Eye Girl and I wonder if he was considering releasing a version with them. He must have really loved the song since he performed it so often.

Yes, the "Empty Room" story is in Matt Thorne's Biography, and Susannah detailed it in her recent interview with Toure. I agree with your thoughts on the song. Many of them tied to her relate to him not wanting her to leave - that he will be lost and lonely without her - NC2U, Empty Room, Wally, Forever In My Life, etc. But yet he would do and say things that ultimately made her want to leave. Such a complicated man.

*

He always played this song with major intensity. The 2009 Montreux version is my favorite. He was really emoting during that performance, and then how he went right into the song Elixir and sang the first line in a sarcastic way "when my guard is ever low, there's a place I can go". Interestingly, I think Susannah's marriage was breaking up by that point. Things that make you go hmmmm

violetcrush said:

pinkcashmere23 said:

I hadn't heard the story about Prince calling the band in on Bobby's wedding day. "Empty Room" is such an intense song that it would seem it would have been inspired by more than a tiff but I suppose he was likely imaging his life without her and it came from that place. It's so moving and he always sang it with such conviction, even later in his life. I really liked the rehearsal that he recorded with 3rd Eye Girl and I wonder if he was considering releasing a version with them. He must have really loved the song since he performed it so often.

Yes, the "Empty Room" story is in Matt Thorne's Biography, and Susannah detailed it in her recent interview with Toure. I agree with your thoughts on the song. Many of them tied to her relate to him not wanting her to leave - that he will be lost and lonely without her - NC2U, Empty Room, Wally, Forever In My Life, etc. But yet he would do and say things that ultimately made her want to leave. Such a complicated man.

*

He always played this song with major intensity. The 2009 Montreux version is my favorite. He was really emoting during that performance, and then how he went right into the song Elixir and sang the first line in a sarcastic way "when my guard is ever low, there's a place I can go". Interestingly, I think Susannah's marriage was breaking up by that point. Things that make you go hmmmm

^^^the hook!!!!! they really are in every great song/story.

[Edited 10/30/18 10:36am]

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

Yes, the "Empty Room" story is in Matt Thorne's Biography, and Susannah detailed it in her recent interview with Toure. I agree with your thoughts on the song. Many of them tied to her relate to him not wanting her to leave - that he will be lost and lonely without her - NC2U, Empty Room, Wally, Forever In My Life, etc. But yet he would do and say things that ultimately made her want to leave. Such a complicated man.

*

He always played this song with major intensity. The 2009 Montreux version is my favorite. He was really emoting during that performance, and then how he went right into the song Elixir and sang the first line in a sarcastic way "when my guard is ever low, there's a place I can go". Interestingly, I think Susannah's marriage was breaking up by that point. Things that make you go hmmmm

^^^the hook!!!!! they really are in every great song/story.

[Edited 10/30/18 10:36am]

Yes, they often are there, but I think the fact that he erased the original version of Wally and left the second one unreleased, and also did not release or play Empty Room until many years later, speaks to the fact that at least some of these songs were very personal to him and meant something more. I don't think he purposely acted in a way that would make the woman leave. I just think that he was a bit of a hypocrite or had a double standard when it came to relationships - it's okay for me to do these things, but if you do them to me then that means you don't love me. Or, when they eventually leave him he is the victim and they did him wrong because they left.

violetcrush said:

Yep.

violetcrush said:

purplefam99 said:

^^^the hook!!!!! they really are in every great song/story.

[Edited 10/30/18 10:36am]

Yes, they often are there, but I think the fact that he erased the original version of Wally and left the second one unreleased, and also did not release or play Empty Room until many years later, speaks to the fact that at least some of these songs were very personal to him and meant something more. I don't think he purposely acted in a way that would make the woman leave. I just think that he was a bit of a hypocrite or had a double standard when it came to relationships - it's okay for me to do these things, but if you do them to me then that means you don't love me. Or, when they eventually leave him he is the victim and they did him wrong because they left.

Yes,I noticed that one of the patterns he had in his lyrics was to place blame on the woman such as in "I Love U But Don't Trust U" and "I hate U" and to lash out at them for leaving. I do think in some cases he may have intentionally done things to make the woman leave and to purposefully sabotage the relationship. I believe that Mayte said he also had a thing where he would shake hands with a woman in front of the one he was with at the time and that was a sign to them that they were about to lose their position as number one. I seem to recall her writing in her book that he did that with Manuela and that Mayte knew what it meant because he had done that with her as well.

pinkcashmere23 said:

violetcrush said:

Yes, they often are there, but I think the fact that he erased the original version of Wally and left the second one unreleased, and also did not release or play Empty Room until many years later, speaks to the fact that at least some of these songs were very personal to him and meant something more. I don't think he purposely acted in a way that would make the woman leave. I just think that he was a bit of a hypocrite or had a double standard when it came to relationships - it's okay for me to do these things, but if you do them to me then that means you don't love me. Or, when they eventually leave him he is the victim and they did him wrong because they left.

Yes,I noticed that one of the patterns he had in his lyrics was to place blame on the woman such as in "I Love U But Don't Trust U" and "I hate U" and to lash out at them for leaving. I do think in some cases he may have intentionally done things to make the woman leave and to purposefully sabotage the relationship. I believe that Mayte said he also had a thing where he would shake hands with a woman in front of the one he was with at the time and that was a sign to them that they were about to lose their position as number one. I seem to recall her writing in her book that he did that with Manuela and that Mayte knew what it meant because he had done that with her as well.

I agree

pinkcashmere23 said:

violetcrush said:

Yes, they often are there, but I think the fact that he erased the original version of Wally and left the second one unreleased, and also did not release or play Empty Room until many years later, speaks to the fact that at least some of these songs were very personal to him and meant something more. I don't think he purposely acted in a way that would make the woman leave. I just think that he was a bit of a hypocrite or had a double standard when it came to relationships - it's okay for me to do these things, but if you do them to me then that means you don't love me. Or, when they eventually leave him he is the victim and they did him wrong because they left.

Yes,I noticed that one of the patterns he had in his lyrics was to place blame on the woman such as in "I Love U But Don't Trust U" and "I hate U" and to lash out at them for leaving. I do think in some cases he may have intentionally done things to make the woman leave and to purposefully sabotage the relationship. I believe that Mayte said he also had a thing where he would shake hands with a woman in front of the one he was with at the time and that was a sign to them that they were about to lose their position as number one. I seem to recall her writing in her book that he did that with Manuela and that Mayte knew what it meant because he had done that with her as well.

I think the song Big Tall Wall - also written for Susannah - describes the dysfunction of his psyche with relationships quite well:

*

I'm gonna build a big tall wall
Stone circle so U can't get out
Big tall wall
True love is what it's all about

B is 4 bold, girl that's how U make me feel
I is 4 ignorant, this situation's real (So real)
G is 4 my girlfriend, yah U know
I got another one (G is 4 my girlfriend)
But that ain't gonna stop me and U
From having fun (Stop me, stop me)

Baby doll, U're so glam
Every time I see U I wanna slam
U have the nerve 2 walk up my street
Didn't anybody tell U that
My modus operandi left a lot 2 be desired?
I got more holes than a golf course
Oh yeah, U'll have company

*

All of the dysfunction in one song

[Edited 10/30/18 12:59pm]

violetcrush said:

Yes loads of dysfunction, rap doesn’t own it all.

Violet you might find Questlove’s supreme “purple rountable”
Episode interesting. There is some discussion about 45 plus mins in about
The origins of songs. Those very lyrics could be about 4 different women.
[Edited 10/30/18 16:15pm]