KingSausage said:

Militant said:

Imagine if there were no hypothetical questions?

That's a pretty messed up comment from a moderator. I'm asking questions to facilitate discussion. What's your problem with my post?

It's not a good look for a mod to be so condescending & argumentative.

Sure, we all can fall into that when we are defending our point of view.
I'm guilty of that in this thread. But, I realized it, and tried to pull back to a respectful debate with skywalker.

It is possible for us to disagree and debate without being insulting.

Unfortunately, we sometimes go to far trying to prove our opinions are facts.

Just sayin'...

KingSausage said:

Militant said:

Imagine if there were no hypothetical questions?

That's a pretty messed up comment from a moderator. I'm asking questions to facilitate discussion. What's your problem with my post?

It really is. I thought this was a discussion forum. But I guess they have to behave themselves here if they want any crumbs from Prince's table.

He should have at least had an opinion to back up his statement. The comment alone just sounded condescending & dismissive.

Bottom barrel moderation.

Militant said:

KingSausage said:

Militant said: That's a pretty messed up comment from a moderator. I'm asking questions to facilitate discussion. What's your problem with my post?

I don't have a problem with your post, I just thought it was intellectually deficient. The sampler set is one part of a set that also includes : a live rock element, a live funk element, a solo piano element..... etc etc etc. And it's a short part of the set at that - most shows not longer than 20 minutes, if that.

You might as well say - "What if Prince did a show where he just played drums for 2 hours, what would the critics say?" or "What if Prince played a 2 hour guitar solo, what then?"

Hell - I'll tell you exactly what they say, they'd say "Where's the hits?" And when he does the sampler set, that's what he's giving them.

Right, because nobody would like it if the band played When Doves Cry because it wouldn't sound exactly like the album. Everybody hated the live versions on the Purple Rain Tour, the Parade Tour, the Lovesexy Tour, the Nude Tour, etc... (insert KCOOL's eyeroll hear)

I'm going to ask this clearly: What does the setlist have to do with this debate?

I think it has nothing to do with it UNLESS we are saying that the band cannot play these song and make the audience happy. IF that is what we are saying, then, why not? Past bands have played these songs and the audience did not complain that it didn't sound exactly as it does on record.

Hell, the song Kiss has NEVER sounded like the record. It still didn't when the band PLAYED it Sat night. The audience still LOVED it.

So, setlist is irrelevent.

Can we debate the merits of the sampler vs. the band playing live without devolving into "but the people want to hear the hits" argument since the hits can be played in BOTH cases?

[Edited 3/16/15 8:33am]

KingSausage said:

What would your reaction be to a Prince tour based on one-man shows, all sampler set? What do you think the general audience's reaction would be? What do you think critics' reactions would be?

I would LOVE it!

Militant said:

I think some people fail to recognise the influence that Prince had on the electronic and Detroit House scenes. Ever heard of Juan Atkins (Model 500)? He, and many other 80's electronic pioneers cite Prince as one of their main influences.

THIS NEEDS ITS OWN THREAD. This is a jewel!

terrig said:

I'm going to bet that playing what he does in a sampler set requires

- a more band members = more $$$
- more equipment to travel with = more $$$
- more rehaersal time with the more band members = more $$$

so I'm betting the way the sampler set is done is a direct correlation to how much it costs to rehearse transport and do, and the amount of people and techs it takes to do it... andthe ease with which it can be transported.

$$$$ is a factor in ALL of it. it's less expensive for Prince to program it and have him play over it - which still makes people lose their shit and it means he makes the money he needs to make.

The band members get paid to rehearse so I'm betting he needs ot keep the budget in check and he decides whats the most important things for them to spend their time on.

You might be on to something here...

Apparently, there are no shortage of lemmings here (including moderators) who'd pay top dollar just to see Prince stand onstage & push buttons on his iPod in the event he might hum a few bars over Sexy Dancer. I'll pass.

[Edited 3/16/15 8:38am]

djThunderfunk said:

terrig said:

I'm going to bet that playing what he does in a sampler set requires

- a more band members = more $$$
- more equipment to travel with = more $$$
- more rehaersal time with the more band members = more $$$

so I'm betting the way the sampler set is done is a direct correlation to how much it costs to rehearse transport and do, and the amount of people and techs it takes to do it... andthe ease with which it can be transported.

$$$$ is a factor in ALL of it. it's less expensive for Prince to program it and have him play over it - which still makes people lose their shit and it means he makes the money he needs to make.

The band members get paid to rehearse so I'm betting he needs ot keep the budget in check and he decides whats the most important things for them to spend their time on.

You might be on to something here...

Thank you Everyone forgets that Prince has had to alter his PROCESS just as much as his approach to the business.

Prince is all scratchy about real music by real musiciians because hes had the best that it could be in terms of being able to make all those records. They use to spare NO expense to allow him to do what he did.

This stuff now runs on barely what Prince would spend in a day back then.

Prince also works the shit out of everyone, he can't afford to do that now.....its expensive.

Would it work if Prince learned how to work a turntable? 2 turntables spinning out songs?

OldFriends4Sale said:

Would it work if Prince learned how to work a turntable? 2 turntables spinning out songs?

Keeping it simple would allow him to add live instruments (as he sometimes does)

terrig said:

Very interesting thread.

As you may know I do not like sampler sets after 2007.

Most wise stuff about the sampler sets has already been written here.

In short it is laziness and perhaps a cheap way of not playing certain songs he thinks are 'dirty'.

He should have dropped the sampler set after 2007.

Him playing When Doves Cry (live...) instead would compensate more than enough.

terrig said:

Militant said:

I think some people fail to recognise the influence that Prince had on the electronic and Detroit House scenes. Ever heard of Juan Atkins (Model 500)? He, and many other 80's electronic pioneers cite Prince as one of their main influences.

THIS NEEDS ITS OWN THREAD. This is a jewel!

Thank you Terri!

paulludvig said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Would it work if Prince learned how to work a turntable? 2 turntables spinning out songs?

Keeping it simple would allow him to add live instruments (as he sometimes does)

On Youtube Check out Sheila E live @ Kiss N Grind, dr Rashida mixes Glamorous Life - Hollyrock (with live percussion & bass)

Prince can do this or at least get Rashida

This thread is going round and round. Don't you want to let Prince just be Prince and let him do what he wants to do? If you don't like it then listen to someone else and avoid his concerts due to dreaded sampler set. I happen to love his sampler set. Because it's the way he want to deliever this portion of HIS concert. I find the demands of people saying he should have to play it live in order for them to be satisfied bizarre. It would be like telling your boyfriend, or girlfriend or partner or husband or wife how to be in order for you to be happy. Yeah you can do that and some people do, but it's a selfish way to love.

Just love the sampler set or leave it alone. Nuff said. He's not lazy. He's one of the hardest if not the hardest most prolific musicians of the last 40 years. I prefer to let people be the way they want to be. If it's a fit great, if not I move on. But I don't ever keep saying how I want people to be in my life. That's just negative and controlling.

vinaysfunk said:

terrig said:

I'm going to bet that playing what he does in a sampler set requires

- a more band members = more $$$
- more equipment to travel with = more $$$
- more rehaersal time with the more band members = more $$$

.

exaaaaaaactly...

[Edited 3/16/15 11:47am]

I get where your coming from KingSausage and I often find your post humorous and witty. I have no problem opening up anything for debate and discussion. It's just that some posters around here are blatently rude and just don't add anything constructive. They don't like it and demand that it be deleted from his concerts and they dislike it so much that they state I won't attend his concerts if he continues with this. Yes there are discussions about meals by a certain chef. But if the posters kept saying the chef should make it different I would be like so don't eat it and eat someone's preparations. And if someone didn't like the way a director made his movie and wanted an alternative version I would say watch another movie and move on already.

I like it when people post things that have some substance to it. About how it already is and what they like or dislike about it. But things go overboard with name calling and saying how it sucks because he didn't do a certain way. In the end it's certainly not lazy. It's done purposely by Prince to appease the crowd and be playful and reach out as musician in another way. It's his concert after all, it's his artistry on display. There's alot to appreciate.

Militant said:

Objection 1 - "If I wanted to hear the songs sound like the record I would listen at home"

And if you wanted to hear the songs played live by Prince and literally any band he's ever had, you could listen to literally hundreds of bootlegs circulating. Some of them direct from the soundboard, with no crowd noise! Imagine that! But you still want to go and see Prince. Why? Maybe because it's just as much about the atmosphere and buzz, the shared appreciation, the ambience, the social aspect? And just maybe, for the majority of the audience, that includes hearing things they actually recognize, including things like When Doves Cry which are incredibly difficult to play with a live band because they were written using intricate drum machine programming, no bassline, and analog synths? Or do you want Hannah, a rock drummer to attempt to play that intricate pattern on a standard acoustic drum set and no synths because there isn't currently a keyboard player in the band? Would it even be recognisable to the audience? Probably not, thus defeating the purpose.

.

the idea that these songs are too hard to play live is silly. "Intricate programming" isn't a barrier, there are tons of musicians who can play some very, very complicated things. I hear Dr Fink managed with the solo at the end of WDC even though in the studio it was recorded slower then sped up.

.

Second, although I believe that some elements of these songs probably sound best as pre-recorded loops, there is plenty of room for the band. For example, prince could easily be playing the guitar on SOTT. The drums and the bass could be played live too. If the distinctive fairlight synth pattern loop thing is too hard to replicate live, then sample it.

.

Third, the fact that the band isn't well suited to play prince songs kinda suggests that the band shouldn't be with prince, no? I really don't mean to be a dick, and I don't want to tell Prince what to do, but doesn't the argument, "he doesn't play his songs live because his band isn't set up for it" sound really weak?

vinaysfunk said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

paulludvig said:

Keeping it simple would allow him to add live instruments (as he sometimes does)

On Youtube Check out Sheila E live @ Kiss N Grind, dr Rashida mixes Glamorous Life - Hollyrock (with live percussion & bass)

Prince can do this or at least get Rashida

My point is that he should use technology that allows him to do it all by himself. Trigger a loop and play and sing on top of it. Create new beats on the spot. Mix it up. He will not be able to do that with turn tables and he shoudn't have to rely on others.

fusk said:

.

the idea that these songs are too hard to play live is silly. "Intricate programming" isn't a barrier, there are tons of musicians who can play some very, very complicated things. I hear Dr Fink managed with the solo at the end of WDC even though in the studio it was recorded slower then sped up.

.

Second, although I believe that some elements of these songs probably sound best as pre-recorded loops, there is plenty of room for the band. For example, prince could easily be playing the guitar on SOTT. The drums and the bass could be played live too. If the distinctive fairlight synth pattern loop thing is too hard to replicate live, then sample it.

.

Third, the fact that the band isn't well suited to play prince songs kinda suggests that the band shouldn't be with prince, no? I really don't mean to be a dick, and I don't want to tell Prince what to do, but doesn't the argument, "he doesn't play his songs live because his band isn't set up for it" sound really weak?

Which is exactly how it is performed during the sampler set (although with Donna playing the guitar)

I've said THUMBS DOWN from the get-go on the sampler set. It's first incarnation that I saw was on the NewPowerSoul tour at Madison Square Garden. Prince roamed the stage with a portable keyboard and sang over prerecorded tracks.

My last Prince show was at Mohegan Sun last year and the sampler set was used. The sound was muffled and it really takes time from a true musical genius who has an unlimited catalog of songs and could flesh them out with his band playing LIVE.

The temporary rise from the crowd when they hear an instrumental snippet of "Nasty Girl" would be best served shelved .

I'm told the original idea for the sampler set was for the band to play the snippets live.

Oh well, if this is my only beef in Prince's stage shows over the years, I can live with that.

skywalker said:

KingSausage said:

I've seen mixed opinions here of the sampler sets. Many say that they're lame karaoke style medleys of stale hits. Others say that they're cool because those songs sound better electronically anyway. I've never seen a live show with a sampler set (though I saw Kirky J on drums numerous times, so maybe that was bad enough). I've only heard sampler sets on bootlegs, where they're boring and lifeless. That being said, I can't help but wonder if the sampler sets aren't damn near the laziest thing Prince has ever done. What do you think? Are they lazy? Has he been lazier? What would you honestly say of another artist who did the same thing? Where is the line between lip syncing and sampler sets? Why even have a band if you can just do a sampler set?

As a superfan (which I assume the majority of people at the org are) I enjoy the sampler set for what it is.

-

Yet, the times I have seen a live show with the sampler set, it absolutley lights the crowd on fire, and it is a highlight for many in attendance. So, though it doesn't do A LOT for me after seeing it a few times, I understand why Prince keeps it in the set because it blows the roof off and is a crowd favorite. He really does have many songs the casual fans wanna hear, and not enough time to do them all. This is a funky ass remedy.

[Edited 3/15/15 9:43am]

I agree wholeheartedly. The crowd always goes wild when they hear songs they know, even just the first few bars. I am sure most people at the concerts are not at all bothered by the sampler sets. I don't have a problem with them at all, either, because Prince could never play all the songs me or my family want to hear when we're at his concert. Little snippets are just fun to sing along with and/or fun when the music starts and you can all sing along. I believe most people at concerts have a better time when they are familiar with the songs.

paulludvig said:

fusk said:

.

the idea that these songs are too hard to play live is silly. "Intricate programming" isn't a barrier, there are tons of musicians who can play some very, very complicated things. I hear Dr Fink managed with the solo at the end of WDC even though in the studio it was recorded slower then sped up.

.

Second, although I believe that some elements of these songs probably sound best as pre-recorded loops, there is plenty of room for the band. For example, prince could easily be playing the guitar on SOTT. The drums and the bass could be played live too. If the distinctive fairlight synth pattern loop thing is too hard to replicate live, then sample it.

.

Third, the fact that the band isn't well suited to play prince songs kinda suggests that the band shouldn't be with prince, no? I really don't mean to be a dick, and I don't want to tell Prince what to do, but doesn't the argument, "he doesn't play his songs live because his band isn't set up for it" sound really weak?

Which is exactly how it is performed during the sampler set (although with Donna playing the guitar)

.

that sounds great!

Militant said:

Some of that 80's drum-and-synth programming simply can't be replicated live.

Along with everything else I especially agree with this.

The sampler set is a great way to run through a flurry of hits the way people remember them rather than reworking them into something that doesn't quite hit the mark live. (Kiss being a prime example). It also means he has more freedom when he takes centre stage.

IMy only complaint - I've never heard "Forever In My Life" where the crowd correctly does the "backing vocal" before the lead vocal.

one time I tried to go to a prince afterparty club jam whateversomethingorother .. we got there and it was $20 each to get in .. they told us prince was inside but there would be no performance .. I passed .. $20 bucks to just be in the same club is rediculous and cheap .. ahem

sampler set is not much better .. i wouldn't pay $20 bucks if they told me prince was sitting at his computer and playing 30 second snippets of 10 songs .. lame

i would pay $200 to see him play 10 good songs in full tho...

get it?

sampler set sucks .. its not part of his legacy .. its not fun .. its worse than his piano medleys .. play a full song or not at all

no even so .. 3rd eye girl is THE laziest thing prince has ever done .. they must be the cheapest band on the planet for him to keep on with them .. he must just tell them to rehearse without him all the time cuz they sound like shit .. and IF prince is involved .. shame on prince

SuperSoulFighter said:

terrig said:

I'm going to bet that playing what he does in a sampler set requires

- a more band members = more $$$
- more equipment to travel with = more $$$
- more rehaersal time with the more band members = more $$$

so I'm betting the way the sampler set is done is a direct correlation to how much it costs to rehearse transport and do, and the amount of people and techs it takes to do it... andthe ease with which it can be transported.

$$$$ is a factor in ALL of it. it's less expensive for Prince to program it and have him play over it - which still makes people lose their shit and it means he makes the money he needs to make.

The band members get paid to rehearse so I'm betting he needs ot keep the budget in check and he decides whats the most important things for them to spend their time on.

But doing the sampler set means he is paying his musicians for doing nothing and that doesn't make much economical sense either! He needs to pay his musicians anyway, so why not let them work the whole time?

I don't think its quite that simple....if it were he'd do it differently. Prince knows what he's doing especially in terms of how to put a show together. The idea he's lazy is ridiculous, but fregtting even that.... he most certainly has earned his right to boast about his hits and zip through them however he wants to. It's 20 minutes - Prince over delivers on so many levels at a show, the idea of complaints about 20 minutes of driving the crownd into a frenzy is reaching for??????? I dont get it.

I'd assume he's NOT using 3EG as a Revolution/NPG stand in.....but as its own entity. I think thats why they play entirely reworked versions of some of his other songs....and he does the sampler stuff on his own.

For me as long as Prince is onstage - it could be alvin and the chipmunks behind him, I dont care. Prince can stomp on the floor and hum and it will be awesome. He'll make you want more ....

would I go see an all sampler show? No. That would never happen anyway. He'd blow off his own head if he had to do that lololol

terrig said:

Militant said:

I think some people fail to recognise the influence that Prince had on the electronic and Detroit House scenes. Ever heard of Juan Atkins (Model 500)? He, and many other 80's electronic pioneers cite Prince as one of their main influences.

THIS NEEDS ITS OWN THREAD. This is a jewel!

@ Militant can you relate?