JerzeeYo said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I love the fro, I just think the picture isn't so good

technically Prince isn't 'African' not even genetically, he is AfriEuro genetically (I'm not defining him here) But I think he just needs someone to style his fro

I think he has been doing his hair for a while now

WTF? Are you serious?

read without WTF

Is Prince African?

morningsong said:

No wonder he stays in Europe so much. Imagine all those relatives come ringing his doorbell.

He actually said some interesting things on the 20Ten cd in connection to what you posted.

He really does still hold to "I wish there was no black or white, I wish..."

1725topp said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah looking back, it did fit his head in an overbearing way. One of my favorite suite though

the Pretty trees, dude was calm and skilled.
I believe and know there are many European(descendant) people who growing an afro is nothing. It's natural. The afro in it's hugeness as far as I know definately seems to be a thing of the American diaspora. I never really saw many African ethnic groups wearing big afros. Some New guineaians were their hair out big.

But I'm a big 1970s fan and seeing Italians, Puerto Ricans, Jews/Hebrews and others with afro was nothing. the 1960s and into the 70s especially people were going 'natural' in all kinds of ways especially hair. I saw Welcome Back Kotter for the first time in a long time a few weeks ago.

.

the short period in the 1980s when Prince would do interviews 1982-1986 followed by the 1997-1998 years are when Prince gave the best interviews.

*

Wow...that's not a head wrap; that's a lampshade. :^) But, Prince is still rocking it though he looks as if he'd be right at home with my grandmother and her church group. :^)

*

Remember that the afro is an outgrowth of the "natural," of the late Fifties and early Sixties, when African Americans were simply removing the chemicals from their hair to reject the desire to look more European and embrace that "black is beautiful". As the song states, "How you gon' get respect when you ain't cut yo' process yet?" And for the other folks on this site--not you--I must add that African American embracing Negroid/African features as being beautiful is not tantamount to asserting that white is not. The Afro was merely a stylistic exaggeration of "the natural"--a moment/movement of African Americans to do something grand that would make it clear that they were rejecting the notion that African/Negroid features were inferior. Of course, the Afro or "natural" wooly hair is not exclusive to African Americans, as people of color all over the globe with naturally wooly hair, be they Jewish, Italian, Puerto Rican, or whatever, have had some aspect of a 'fro. But it was the Black Power Movement that made the Afro a cultural icon/statement in the same way that African American culture has always been a major driving force in American and global culture/style. Bo Derrek wasn't a Ten until she wore braids; yet, sisters had been wearing braids for years and were never considered a perfect ten by Hollywood.

*

I've never had a problem with Prince's interviews, per se, but moreso that so few journalists have had the skill and courage to interview him in a way to get him to discuss music and race in a complex manner consistently. (Even if one is worried about upsetting or offending an icon, one should have the skills to get the man to talk in-depth about music and culture. But, most pop magazines don't want that anyway.) The 1983 interview with Carol Cooper, "Prince: Someday your Prince Will Come" in The Face comes closest to what I'd like to see. I've also heard that in the two chapters that Prince completed with C. Liegh McInnis for that book that Prince was planning to write Prince really said some interesting things about fatherhood and racial independence. Too bad that project was scrapped.

lol yes it actually does look like som Victorian lamp shade

.

It is interesting that outside of some ancient Egyptian Nubian Ethiopian(and some Hebrew and Arab) images (the only places I've seen people wearing 'semi kinky or curly fros' In other parts of Africa, the afro even in a mini state doesn't exist. Unless I missed it. Most either wear their hair shortly cropped or braids.

The afro outside of the Circassian 'Moss haired girls' of the 1860s [youtube:X]http://prince.org/msg/105/410374[/youtube:X] is really an American statement. 'Black-American' specifically.

.

I listed those 2 periods because the ones of the 80s helped to give that mystique mystery and color that fuelled the whole Uptown/Erotic City/Paisley Park utopia.

I remember the interview where he said they had to do a lot of bike riding nude to get stuff started. Back then even still now it's a like a poetic language of mythical place. After 1986 any interviews were conducted through Cat Sheila or Eric. the 1997-1998 interviews I love because he talked in a way that suggested he was 'rested' or at peace. He talked a lot about the creation of his songs, talked about unreleased songs from the 1980s, talked about the 1980s 'Community' of people in his camp, talked about the process of creating music etc. Those were really informative. He has never interviewed often. But for mre those periods gave the best interviews.

OldFriends4Sale said:

1725topp said:

*

Wow...that's not a head wrap; that's a lampshade. :^) But, Prince is still rocking it though he looks as if he'd be right at home with my grandmother and her church group. :^)

*

Remember that the afro is an outgrowth of the "natural," of the late Fifties and early Sixties, when African Americans were simply removing the chemicals from their hair to reject the desire to look more European and embrace that "black is beautiful". As the song states, "How you gon' get respect when you ain't cut yo' process yet?" And for the other folks on this site--not you--I must add that African American embracing Negroid/African features as being beautiful is not tantamount to asserting that white is not. The Afro was merely a stylistic exaggeration of "the natural"--a moment/movement of African Americans to do something grand that would make it clear that they were rejecting the notion that African/Negroid features were inferior. Of course, the Afro or "natural" wooly hair is not exclusive to African Americans, as people of color all over the globe with naturally wooly hair, be they Jewish, Italian, Puerto Rican, or whatever, have had some aspect of a 'fro. But it was the Black Power Movement that made the Afro a cultural icon/statement in the same way that African American culture has always been a major driving force in American and global culture/style. Bo Derrek wasn't a Ten until she wore braids; yet, sisters had been wearing braids for years and were never considered a perfect ten by Hollywood.

*

I've never had a problem with Prince's interviews, per se, but moreso that so few journalists have had the skill and courage to interview him in a way to get him to discuss music and race in a complex manner consistently. (Even if one is worried about upsetting or offending an icon, one should have the skills to get the man to talk in-depth about music and culture. But, most pop magazines don't want that anyway.) The 1983 interview with Carol Cooper, "Prince: Someday your Prince Will Come" in The Face comes closest to what I'd like to see. I've also heard that in the two chapters that Prince completed with C. Liegh McInnis for that book that Prince was planning to write Prince really said some interesting things about fatherhood and racial independence. Too bad that project was scrapped.

lol yes it actually does look like som Victorian lamp shade

.

It is interesting that outside of some ancient Egyptian Nubian Ethiopian(and some Hebrew and Arab) images (the only places I've seen people wearing 'semi kinky or curly fros' In other parts of Africa, the afro even in a mini state doesn't exist. Unless I missed it. Most either wear their hair shortly cropped or braids.

The afro outside of the Circassian 'Moss haired girls' of the 1860s [youtube:X]http://prince.org/msg/105/410374[/youtube:X] is really an American statement. 'Black-American' specifically.

.

I listed those 2 periods because the ones of the 80s helped to give that mystique mystery and color that fuelled the whole Uptown/Erotic City/Paisley Park utopia.

I remember the interview where he said they had to do a lot of bike riding nude to get stuff started. Back then even still now it's a like a poetic language of mythical place. After 1986 any interviews were conducted through Cat Sheila or Eric. the 1997-1998 interviews I love because he talked in a way that suggested he was 'rested' or at peace. He talked a lot about the creation of his songs, talked about unreleased songs from the 1980s, talked about the 1980s 'Community' of people in his camp, talked about the process of creating music etc. Those were really informative. He has never interviewed often. But for mre those periods gave the best interviews.

*

Yes, the Afro in the mini state was worn as the smaller "bush" 'fro by some tribes as early as the 1600 and 1700s, and even Egyptian wall drawings depict all sizes of Afros alongside other styles. (A quick search of "ancient African hairstyles" will show this, and my parents had all sorts of picture books showing this when I was a child.) To that end, the Afro is a black-American statement of reclaiming the "natural texture" of African/Nubian/Negroid hair. So, we can't disconnect the black-American Afro from the natural African/Nubian/Negroid hair style, especially since there were also smaller "bush" 'fros that were regularly worn by Africans/Nubians/Negroid prior to the 1700s. Further, we must understand that all "style" is in some way a stylized exaggeration for emphasis. Thus, the bigness of the black-American 'fro was designed to be a grand gesture, if you will, of returning to African/Nubian/Negroid roots, and this grand gesture was needed as a response to four hundred years of physical and psychological oppression. The Afro was a two-part act of style and socio-political statement. One, there was the remembering that wearing one's hair in its natural state is healthier and easier to manage. Two, then, once more people realized that wearing one's hair in its natural state is healthier and easier to manage, the bigness of the 'fro signaled pride, anger, and rebellion at the white power structure for centuries of physical and psychological oppression. Thus, the Afro was both healthy choice and ultimate "eff-off" to the white power structure. So, yes, while the black-American Afro is an exaggeration, it is directly related or connected to the hair styles of African/Nubian/Negroid peoples dating to the 1600s and before.

*

I think that the creation of the Uptown/Multicultural Mystique is a double-edge sword. On the one hand, it allowed Prince, as an individual, not to be limited by an industry (record company, radio, and magazines) that was/is based on segregation, especially a segregation that, historically, limits African American artists or markets them as one-dimensional moreso than white artists. And, of course, this allowed/allows him to create great art because he is unchained or unbothered by the notions of "Hey, that's not music that a 'black' dude should/can create." However, creating that fantasy has made it difficult for those fans who embraced that fantasy to accept Prince as an African American or someone who sees himself as an African American when he desires to engage how African Americans have been mistreated in America. Of course, Prince is no saint or MLK or Malcolm X, and I agree that Prince can be perceived as being connected to African Americans and their causes when it is "convenient" for him, but that is also a complexity not understood by many whites who don't know the complex history of the Civil Rights Movement and how many Civil Rights organizations and Civil Rights icons debated and varying ideologies on the best response and plan to end racial discrimination. So, while better journalism would have limited or debunked much of that Uptown/Multicultural Mystique, it would have also provided, early, a clear picture of what it means to be an African American trying to navigate individual desires while also navigating institutional racism. (Of course, this is not the type of "understanding" or "reality" that sells pop records, which seems to be one of the reasons why the ongoing Police harassment of Morris day was removed from Purple Rain, which can be seen in the "Let's Go Crazy" video iirc.) The bottom line is that Prince seems to understand that if he's ever stopped or pulled over the by the police it is not likely that he will be perceived by the officer as the "Prince of Uptown" or the "Prince of Multiculturalism". And, whites who do not understand this thought process are those who embrace the Uptown/Multicultural Mystique without learning that African Americans have always waged this dual battle for individual freedom and freedom from institutionalized racism.

Black hair is beautiful hair be it tight,kinky,messy,sculpted,cut,grown out, dyed,fried, or laid to the side!

1725topp said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

lol yes it actually does look like som Victorian lamp shade

.

It is interesting that outside of some ancient Egyptian Nubian Ethiopian(and some Hebrew and Arab) images (the only places I've seen people wearing 'semi kinky or curly fros' In other parts of Africa, the afro even in a mini state doesn't exist. Unless I missed it. Most either wear their hair shortly cropped or braids.

The afro outside of the Circassian 'Moss haired girls' of the 1860s [youtube:X]http://prince.org/msg/105/410374[/youtube:X] is really an American statement. 'Black-American' specifically.

.

I listed those 2 periods because the ones of the 80s helped to give that mystique mystery and color that fuelled the whole Uptown/Erotic City/Paisley Park utopia.

I remember the interview where he said they had to do a lot of bike riding nude to get stuff started. Back then even still now it's a like a poetic language of mythical place. After 1986 any interviews were conducted through Cat Sheila or Eric. the 1997-1998 interviews I love because he talked in a way that suggested he was 'rested' or at peace. He talked a lot about the creation of his songs, talked about unreleased songs from the 1980s, talked about the 1980s 'Community' of people in his camp, talked about the process of creating music etc. Those were really informative. He has never interviewed often. But for mre those periods gave the best interviews.

*

Yes, the Afro in the mini state was worn as the smaller "bush" 'fro by some tribes as early as the 1600 and 1700s, and even Egyptian wall drawings depict all sizes of Afros alongside other styles. (A quick search of "ancient African hairstyles" will show this, and my parents had all sorts of picture books showing this when I was a child.) To that end, the Afro is a black-American statement of reclaiming the "natural texture" of African/Nubian/Negroid hair. So, we can't disconnect the black-American Afro from the natural African/Nubian/Negroid hair style, especially since there were also smaller "bush" 'fros that were regularly worn by Africans/Nubians/Negroid prior to the 1700s. Further, we must understand that all "style" is in some way a stylized exaggeration for emphasis. Thus, the bigness of the black-American 'fro was designed to be a grand gesture, if you will, of returning to African/Nubian/Negroid roots, and this grand gesture was needed as a response to four hundred years of physical and psychological oppression. The Afro was a two-part act of style and socio-political statement. One, there was the remembering that wearing one's hair in its natural state is healthier and easier to manage. Two, then, once more people realized that wearing one's hair in its natural state is healthier and easier to manage, the bigness of the 'fro signaled pride, anger, and rebellion at the white power structure for centuries of physical and psychological oppression. Thus, the Afro was both healthy choice and ultimate "eff-off" to the white power structure. So, yes, while the black-American Afro is an exaggeration, it is directly related or connected to the hair styles of African/Nubian/Negroid peoples dating to the 1600s and before.

*

I think that the creation of the Uptown/Multicultural Mystique is a double-edge sword. On the one hand, it allowed Prince, as an individual, not to be limited by an industry (record company, radio, and magazines) that was/is based on segregation, especially a segregation that, historically, limits African American artists or markets them as one-dimensional moreso than white artists. And, of course, this allowed/allows him to create great art because he is unchained or unbothered by the notions of "Hey, that's not music that a 'black' dude should/can create." However, creating that fantasy has made it difficult for those fans who embraced that fantasy to accept Prince as an African American or someone who sees himself as an African American when he desires to engage how African Americans have been mistreated in America. Of course, Prince is no saint or MLK or Malcolm X, and I agree that Prince can be perceived as being connected to African Americans and their causes when it is "convenient" for him, but that is also a complexity not understood by many whites who don't know the complex history of the Civil Rights Movement and how many Civil Rights organizations and Civil Rights icons debated and varying ideologies on the best response and plan to end racial discrimination. So, while better journalism would have limited or debunked much of that Uptown/Multicultural Mystique, it would have also provided, early, a clear picture of what it means to be an African American trying to navigate individual desires while also navigating institutional racism. (Of course, this is not the type of "understanding" or "reality" that sells pop records, which seems to be one of the reasons why the ongoing Police harassment of Morris day was removed from Purple Rain, which can be seen in the "Let's Go Crazy" video iirc.) The bottom line is that Prince seems to understand that if he's ever stopped or pulled over the by the police it is not likely that he will be perceived by the officer as the "Prince of Uptown" or the "Prince of Multiculturalism". And, whites who do not understand this thought process are those who embrace the Uptown/Multicultural Mystique without learning that African Americans have always waged this dual battle for individual freedom and freedom from institutionalized racism.

I did say in my original post that there are many images of mini 'afros' in Egyptian Nubian Ethiopian even Hebrew and Arab ancient art, and still.

I can look some more but I've not personally seen afros as a tribal cultural style in SSA. I've only seen it in Northern & Eastern Africa. I've basically only seen images of short cropped hair or braids outside of those other regions.

.

I just did a google search cut n paste:ancient African hairstyles, ancient South African images/art etc

and the only afros again are in the northern & eastern African countries. Everything else is short cropped and braidings, very elaborate braids.

.

It's also interesting that the dreads of Jamaica, that many rastas connect with Ethiopia and it's Jewish connections. That dreads are not really a style found in any African counties(again I could be overlooking, there are so many diff ethnic groups:the braids of the Maassi are something different) but dreads are definately found in India and a lot of the rasta culture is derived from that of the Hindu holy men. Rastafari culture is interesting, a combination of beliefs of a few different ethnic groups.

.

I also was not disconnecting the afro from African. Of course hair/kinky hair of the African-American and mixed mixed descendants would be connected to genetic African ancestors. But again the huge afros we see in the 1970s I have not seen any images like that in the SSA, South African or even other parts of Africa. I mean the huge afro. Like I said, I could have missed something. But I haven't seen any. I like your explanation of afro americans making the fro bigger in it's dual intentions. Man, but when Jerry came to town in the 80s.

Nubian is generally connected with NE Africa, not a general term for 'black' people. So afros of the Nubian Egyptian Ethiopian (as well as some Hebrew/Arabs) are the only ones I've seen. But in SSA Western Central and Southern in ancient art I've not seen.

.

cool. I wasn't really looking at the interviews from the place of race. Most of the discussions especially in the 1980s outside of asking about parentage, was not about race/identity. Prince did choose to be viewed as colorless ambigious all races etc then and even thought his career. Moreso in the 80s and even 90s. LIke you said and I think Alexander ONeal, I think Prince is 'black' when it's convienent. Mostly the interviews are about music and sex if I remember, and even moreso about spiritual beliefs and such. Band members. I liked the mystic. On the other hand it was done so well that he could never top it again.

Wow you see all that in the removal of Morris being watched by the cops? Not knocking it lol

It really wasn't Prince that removed that scene though. It was Albert Magnoli. If I remember correctly that scene in the script is because Morris(had Jerome) dump that lady in the dumpster or it was after he was ducking around and sneaking around in the bushing in Prince's neighborhood at night. And then he grabs Apollonia by the throat. Prince didn't really write the movie Purple Rain. 2 other guys did. There was no ongoing police harrassment of Morris in the movie. I believe that was the only scene with the cops checking out Morris. Prince also has always played with a Cop & Ganster scene, Madhouse is actually built around the cops & ganster or cop & ____ imagery. Blade Runner(cop vs android) was a big inspiration for his 1999/Purple Rain scene as well. Prince was also into Italian culture/Italian Mafia movies too. One reason he renamed the NPG keyboardist Tommy Barbarella(he isn't really Italian) I really don't believe their was racial issues written into or behind the scenes of Purple Rain. I like your analysis, But I've studied that period, from the original script the music released & unreleased, interviews etc and it's not a motivation there. I really believe that film was a visual representation of his Purple utopia with its demons. Under the Cherry Moon brought in class differences. But not really racial either.

MORRIS
Lo-rd..! Such nastiness.
(a beat)
Hee, hee -- Let's break.

They streak across the street, double-
time it to the CADDY. A COP sweeps by,
gives them a curious look. Morris puts
on a dignified air, then stops,
stupified--

this scene was after she left the Kids house the 1st time. But there was no cops following Morris.

In my opinion he interviewed shyly. Like he was afraid of expressing his views outside of his camp. It's understandable. One of my favorite lines was from a 1982 interview where he says 'there has to be danger or there is no danger in music right now'

He usually has a good line in most of them. But mostly the interviews outside of the periods I mentioned, weren't too revealing. Sadly all I can remember about that last Tavis Smiley interview is 'Chemtrails' -also sung about in Dreamer.

OldFriends4Sale said:

1725topp said:

*

Yes, the Afro in the mini state was worn as the smaller "bush" 'fro by some tribes as early as the 1600 and 1700s, and even Egyptian wall drawings depict all sizes of Afros alongside other styles. (A quick search of "ancient African hairstyles" will show this, and my parents had all sorts of picture books showing this when I was a child.) To that end, the Afro is a black-American statement of reclaiming the "natural texture" of African/Nubian/Negroid hair. So, we can't disconnect the black-American Afro from the natural African/Nubian/Negroid hair style, especially since there were also smaller "bush" 'fros that were regularly worn by Africans/Nubians/Negroid prior to the 1700s. Further, we must understand that all "style" is in some way a stylized exaggeration for emphasis. Thus, the bigness of the black-American 'fro was designed to be a grand gesture, if you will, of returning to African/Nubian/Negroid roots, and this grand gesture was needed as a response to four hundred years of physical and psychological oppression. The Afro was a two-part act of style and socio-political statement. One, there was the remembering that wearing one's hair in its natural state is healthier and easier to manage. Two, then, once more people realized that wearing one's hair in its natural state is healthier and easier to manage, the bigness of the 'fro signaled pride, anger, and rebellion at the white power structure for centuries of physical and psychological oppression. Thus, the Afro was both healthy choice and ultimate "eff-off" to the white power structure. So, yes, while the black-American Afro is an exaggeration, it is directly related or connected to the hair styles of African/Nubian/Negroid peoples dating to the 1600s and before.

*

I think that the creation of the Uptown/Multicultural Mystique is a double-edge sword. On the one hand, it allowed Prince, as an individual, not to be limited by an industry (record company, radio, and magazines) that was/is based on segregation, especially a segregation that, historically, limits African American artists or markets them as one-dimensional moreso than white artists. And, of course, this allowed/allows him to create great art because he is unchained or unbothered by the notions of "Hey, that's not music that a 'black' dude should/can create." However, creating that fantasy has made it difficult for those fans who embraced that fantasy to accept Prince as an African American or someone who sees himself as an African American when he desires to engage how African Americans have been mistreated in America. Of course, Prince is no saint or MLK or Malcolm X, and I agree that Prince can be perceived as being connected to African Americans and their causes when it is "convenient" for him, but that is also a complexity not understood by many whites who don't know the complex history of the Civil Rights Movement and how many Civil Rights organizations and Civil Rights icons debated and varying ideologies on the best response and plan to end racial discrimination. So, while better journalism would have limited or debunked much of that Uptown/Multicultural Mystique, it would have also provided, early, a clear picture of what it means to be an African American trying to navigate individual desires while also navigating institutional racism. (Of course, this is not the type of "understanding" or "reality" that sells pop records, which seems to be one of the reasons why the ongoing Police harassment of Morris day was removed from Purple Rain, which can be seen in the "Let's Go Crazy" video iirc.) The bottom line is that Prince seems to understand that if he's ever stopped or pulled over the by the police it is not likely that he will be perceived by the officer as the "Prince of Uptown" or the "Prince of Multiculturalism". And, whites who do not understand this thought process are those who embrace the Uptown/Multicultural Mystique without learning that African Americans have always waged this dual battle for individual freedom and freedom from institutionalized racism.

I did say in my original post that there are many images of mini 'afros' in Egyptian Nubian Ethiopian even Hebrew and Arab ancient art, and still.

I can look some more but I've not personally seen afros as a tribal cultural style in SSA. I've only seen it in Northern & Eastern Africa. I've basically only seen images of short cropped hair or braids outside of those other regions.

.

I just did a google search cut n paste:ancient African hairstyles, ancient South African images/art etc

and the only afros again are in the northern & eastern African countries. Everything else is short cropped and braidings, very elaborate braids.

.

It's also interesting that the dreads of Jamaica, that many rastas connect with Ethiopia and it's Jewish connections. That dreads are not really a style found in any African counties(again I could be overlooking, there are so many diff ethnic groups:the braids of the Maassi are something different) but dreads are definately found in India and a lot of the rasta culture is derived from that of the Hindu holy men. Rastafari culture is interesting, a combination of beliefs of a few different ethnic groups.

.

I also was not disconnecting the afro from African. Of course hair/kinky hair of the African-American and mixed mixed descendants would be connected to genetic African ancestors. But again the huge afros we see in the 1970s I have not seen any images like that in the SSA, South African or even other parts of Africa. I mean the huge afro. Like I said, I could have missed something. But I haven't seen any. I like your explanation of afro americans making the fro bigger in it's dual intentions. Man, but when Jerry came to town in the 80s.

Nubian is generally connected with NE Africa, not a general term for 'black' people. So afros of the Nubian Egyptian Ethiopian (as well as some Hebrew/Arabs) are the only ones I've seen. But in SSA Western Central and Southern in ancient art I've not seen.

.

cool. I wasn't really looking at the interviews from the place of race. Most of the discussions especially in the 1980s outside of asking about parentage, was not about race/identity. Prince did choose to be viewed as colorless ambigious all races etc then and even thought his career. Moreso in the 80s and even 90s. LIke you said and I think Alexander ONeal, I think Prince is 'black' when it's convienent. Mostly the interviews are about music and sex if I remember, and even moreso about spiritual beliefs and such. Band members. I liked the mystic. On the other hand it was done so well that he could never top it again.
In my opinion he interviewed shyly. Like he was afraid of expressing his views outside of his camp. It's understandable. One of my favorite lines was from a 1982 interview where he says 'there has to be danger or there is no danger in music right now'

He usually has a good line in most of them. But mostly the interviews outside of the periods I mentioned, weren't too revealing. Sadly all I can remember about that last Tavis Smiley interview is 'Chemtrails' -also sung about in Dreamer.

*

One issue of disagreement for us is that Nubian culture originates at the base or southern end of the Nile and were the Negroid people who walked into Egypt. Also, the Arab people do not come to Africa as a dominate people until 700 AD so Nubian people/culture existed as a purely Negroid culture that became amalgamated during the Egyptian era. In fact Ethiopian and Nubian cultures were considered pure Negroid peoples by the Greeks as evidence by Herodotus' words. So, even the whole North East African concept of separating that part of African from Negroid peoples is flawed as, again, Arab peoples do not come to Africa as a dominate people until 700 AD.

*

I think those early interviews were partly honest and partly "put on". I must find the interview with a journalist who discusses Prince asking him to stop the tape recorder so that he can "laugh aloud," and then once the recorder is rolling again he's back in character. Chemtrails aside, one cannot refute that "Dreamer" is a solid discussion of the struggle to be African American.

1725topp said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I did say in my original post that there are many images of mini 'afros' in Egyptian Nubian Ethiopian even Hebrew and Arab ancient art, and still.

I can look some more but I've not personally seen afros as a tribal cultural style in SSA. I've only seen it in Northern & Eastern Africa. I've basically only seen images of short cropped hair or braids outside of those other regions.

.

I just did a google search cut n paste:ancient African hairstyles, ancient South African images/art etc

and the only afros again are in the northern & eastern African countries. Everything else is short cropped and braidings, very elaborate braids.

.

It's also interesting that the dreads of Jamaica, that many rastas connect with Ethiopia and it's Jewish connections. That dreads are not really a style found in any African counties(again I could be overlooking, there are so many diff ethnic groups:the braids of the Maassi are something different) but dreads are definately found in India and a lot of the rasta culture is derived from that of the Hindu holy men. Rastafari culture is interesting, a combination of beliefs of a few different ethnic groups.

.

I also was not disconnecting the afro from African. Of course hair/kinky hair of the African-American and mixed mixed descendants would be connected to genetic African ancestors. But again the huge afros we see in the 1970s I have not seen any images like that in the SSA, South African or even other parts of Africa. I mean the huge afro. Like I said, I could have missed something. But I haven't seen any. I like your explanation of afro americans making the fro bigger in it's dual intentions. Man, but when Jerry came to town in the 80s.

Nubian is generally connected with NE Africa, not a general term for 'black' people. So afros of the Nubian Egyptian Ethiopian (as well as some Hebrew/Arabs) are the only ones I've seen. But in SSA Western Central and Southern in ancient art I've not seen.

.

cool. I wasn't really looking at the interviews from the place of race. Most of the discussions especially in the 1980s outside of asking about parentage, was not about race/identity. Prince did choose to be viewed as colorless ambigious all races etc then and even thought his career. Moreso in the 80s and even 90s. LIke you said and I think Alexander ONeal, I think Prince is 'black' when it's convienent. Mostly the interviews are about music and sex if I remember, and even moreso about spiritual beliefs and such. Band members. I liked the mystic. On the other hand it was done so well that he could never top it again.
In my opinion he interviewed shyly. Like he was afraid of expressing his views outside of his camp. It's understandable. One of my favorite lines was from a 1982 interview where he says 'there has to be danger or there is no danger in music right now'

He usually has a good line in most of them. But mostly the interviews outside of the periods I mentioned, weren't too revealing. Sadly all I can remember about that last Tavis Smiley interview is 'Chemtrails' -also sung about in Dreamer.

*

One issue of disagreement for us is that Nubian culture originates at the base or southern end of the Nile and were the Negroid people who walked into Egypt. Also, the Arab people do not come to Africa as a dominate people until 700 AD so Nubian people/culture existed as a purely Negroid culture that became amalgamated during the Egyptian era. In fact Ethiopian and Nubian cultures were considered pure Negroid peoples by the Greeks as evidence by Herodotus' words. So, even the whole North East African concept of separating that part of African from Negroid peoples is flawed as, again, Arab peoples do not come to Africa as a dominate people until 700 AD.

*

I think those early interviews were partly honest and partly "put on". I must find the interview with a journalist who discusses Prince asking him to stop the tape recorder so that he can "laugh aloud," and then once the recorder is rolling again he's back in character. Chemtrails aside, one cannot refute that "Dreamer" is a solid discussion of the struggle to be African American.

I don't think I'm disagreeing with that line of origins of Nubian culture. Nor the origins of the Egyptians. Nor when the Arab people came to Africa, just that I've seen images of Arabs & Hebrews in ancient art with what looks like mini fros, even most Egyptians were bald(with a braid of hair) or wore twists(the women) or wigs.

I think we might be having 2 different conversations? I'm not separating any part of Africa. Nor am I saying anything about when Arabs or Hebrews came to Africa. I'm just talking about cultural images of hair styles throught Africa. Maybe I typed a sentence wrong?

I believe it's called Up From Africa, it's a history channel doc by scientists and archeologist that prove (without a shadow of doubt) that the people that created Egytian culture came up from the areas of Central Africa and the areas that were livable that used to be the dessert

Dreamer like Ronnie Talk 2 Russia and American are Prince's light references to Social/Political/Racial issues. Good song. Again it's Prince, I can't say it's a 'solid discussion'

It's a peak into what he might be thinking though. In the same year that album was released, when being interviewed in response to an interviewers use of black Prince pull back his sleave and puts his arm next to hers and asks "Am I?" Again another hint into what may be going on in his mind/heart, but nothing solid. The song Laveux, I hear his struggles with living in a place like America vs Europe (where I believe he feels more free to just be without defining)

Black hair is beautiful hair be it tight,kinky,messy,sculpted,cut,grown out, dyed,fried, or laid to the side!

OldFriends4Sale said:

1725topp said:

lol yes it actually does look like som Victorian lamp shade

.

It is interesting that outside of some ancient Egyptian Nubian Ethiopian(and some Hebrew and Arab) images (the only places I've seen people wearing 'semi kinky or curly fros' In other parts of Africa, the afro even in a mini state doesn't exist. Unless I missed it. Most either wear their hair shortly cropped or braids.

The afro outside of the Circassian 'Moss haired girls' of the 1860s [youtube:X]http://prince.org/msg/105/410374[/youtube:X] is really an American statement. 'Black-American' specifically.

.

I listed those 2 periods because the ones of the 80s helped to give that mystique mystery and color that fuelled the whole Uptown/Erotic City/Paisley Park utopia.

I remember the interview where he said they had to do a lot of bike riding nude to get stuff started. Back then even still now it's a like a poetic language of mythical place. After 1986 any interviews were conducted through Cat Sheila or Eric. the 1997-1998 interviews I love because he talked in a way that suggested he was 'rested' or at peace. He talked a lot about the creation of his songs, talked about unreleased songs from the 1980s, talked about the 1980s 'Community' of people in his camp, talked about the process of creating music etc. Those were really informative. He has never interviewed often. But for mre those periods gave the best interviews.

paulludvig said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

lol yes it actually does look like som Victorian lamp shade

.

It is interesting that outside of some ancient Egyptian Nubian Ethiopian(and some Hebrew and Arab) images (the only places I've seen people wearing 'semi kinky or curly fros' In other parts of Africa, the afro even in a mini state doesn't exist. Unless I missed it. Most either wear their hair shortly cropped or braids.

The afro outside of the Circassian 'Moss haired girls' of the 1860s [youtube:X]http://prince.org/msg/105/410374[/youtube:X] is really an American statement. 'Black-American' specifically.

.

I listed those 2 periods because the ones of the 80s helped to give that mystique mystery and color that fuelled the whole Uptown/Erotic City/Paisley Park utopia.

I remember the interview where he said they had to do a lot of bike riding nude to get stuff started. Back then even still now it's a like a poetic language of mythical place. After 1986 any interviews were conducted through Cat Sheila or Eric. the 1997-1998 interviews I love because he talked in a way that suggested he was 'rested' or at peace. He talked a lot about the creation of his songs, talked about unreleased songs from the 1980s, talked about the 1980s 'Community' of people in his camp, talked about the process of creating music etc. Those were really informative. He has never interviewed often. But for mre those periods gave the best interviews.

I saw those in my search

If I remember they are Nubian N, Africa

I haven't seen many W. African Central or Southern African men wearing their hair big.

Its either short, cropped low, bald or braided depending on the country/ethnic group

morningsong said:

babynoz said:

Brotha P has a huge family if everybody was running around having 11 children back in the day.

How many orgers you think right now are working the chart out trying to figure out how Prince and they are related by blood.

LMAO!

OldFriends4Sale said:

1725topp said:

*

One issue of disagreement for us is that Nubian culture originates at the base or southern end of the Nile and were the Negroid people who walked into Egypt. Also, the Arab people do not come to Africa as a dominate people until 700 AD so Nubian people/culture existed as a purely Negroid culture that became amalgamated during the Egyptian era. In fact Ethiopian and Nubian cultures were considered pure Negroid peoples by the Greeks as evidence by Herodotus' words. So, even the whole North East African concept of separating that part of African from Negroid peoples is flawed as, again, Arab peoples do not come to Africa as a dominate people until 700 AD.

*

I think those early interviews were partly honest and partly "put on". I must find the interview with a journalist who discusses Prince asking him to stop the tape recorder so that he can "laugh aloud," and then once the recorder is rolling again he's back in character. Chemtrails aside, one cannot refute that "Dreamer" is a solid discussion of the struggle to be African American.

I don't think I'm disagreeing with that line of origins of Nubian culture. Nor the origins of the Egyptians. Nor when the Arab people came to Africa, just that I've seen images of Arabs & Hebrews in ancient art with what looks like mini fros, even most Egyptians were bald(with a braid of hair) or wore twists(the women) or wigs.

I think we might be having 2 different conversations? I'm not separating any part of Africa. Nor am I saying anything about when Arabs or Hebrews came to Africa. I'm just talking about cultural images of hair styles throught Africa. Maybe I typed a sentence wrong?

I believe it's called Up From Africa, it's a history channel doc by scientists and archeologist that prove (without a shadow of doubt) that the people that created Egytian culture came up from the areas of Central Africa and the areas that were livable that used to be the dessert

Dreamer like Ronnie Talk 2 Russia and American are Prince's light references to Social/Political/Racial issues. Good song. Again it's Prince, I can't say it's a 'solid discussion'

It's a peak into what he might be thinking though. In the same year that album was released, when being interviewed in response to an interviewers use of black Prince pull back his sleave and puts his arm next to hers and asks "Am I?" Again another hint into what may be going on in his mind/heart, but nothing solid. The song Laveux, I hear his struggles with living in a place like America vs Europe (where I believe he feels more free to just be without defining)

*

I can agree that the police looking at Morris was not racial, looking at all the evidence, but when Christopher says to Tricky, "And when the police come to carry yo' ass to jail, this is me. 'He said what officer? My Brother? Oh, no, we definitely have different fathers.'...Check it out. Butterscotch...Chocolate...no way.'" You can't deny the racial undertones there. And while I can agree that the ability of love to overcome all ills, even class, is the central issue of UTCM, for Americans, even in Europe, class and race are rarely separated, even for African-American artists who began travelling to Europe in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Not all of them found a "raceless" Utopia, such as James Baldwin. So, while class is the central issue/hurdle, Christopher's words about skin color make it clear that, again, for many African Americans class and color are usually connected in some way.

*

As for our discussion about Africa and the Afro, I may have misread a sentence so thanks for the clarification.

*

As for "Dreamer," I'm not sure why it would be considered a "light" reference to socio-political issues. He pretty clearly addresses tangible issues, such as DuBois' notion of the colorline being the primary issue of America's present and future and how the issue of the colorline/racism most manifests itself in police brutality toward African Americans. In light of Brown and Garner, how can "Dreamer" be considered "light" when it seems equal to "Sign 'O' the Times" in socio-political engagement as well as pinpoints real and urgent issues for African Americans. Could you provide one or two songs by Prince that do a better job at addressing these issues, or is it that you think that he just addresses these issues in a poor or not well-crafted manner? And, possibly by "light" do you mean "faint" or "passing" or not "thoroughly developed"? If that's the case, I can understand that point, but Prince's imagery and turn of a phrase often--not always--allows him to use impressionism and double entendre in a way to say a lot with a little.

*

As for "Laveux," rather than seeing it as America versus Europe, I see it more like "All the Critics Love you in New York," in which New York becomes a metaphor for the Utopia he desires to create. Like "Paisley Park," it's more of a "space" than an actual place. Yes, actual places can be metaphors for Utopia, but if "Paisley park is in your heart," then it seems that the goal is to manifest this Utopia anywhere/everywhere regardless of physical opposition. Yet, for me, his desire to create a multicultural Utopia is not more dominate in his thinking than engaging issues specific to African Americas. They both are two equal slices on the pie chart. In fact, how can this multicultural Utopia be created when so many whites and others refuse to acknowledge the physical and psychological oppression that African Americans and African/Nubian/Negroid peoples continue to experience? If Prince posted a song about Brown and Garner right now, half the Org would go crazy calling Prince a racist so how can someone like me take seriously many fans' love of the "multicultural Utopian" Prince when they despise him when he's addressing issues germane to the African-American experience? Do they love "multicultural Utopian" Prince, or do they love the Prince that feeds their fantasy regarding the exotic, overly sexual mulatto whose going to fuck his way to salvation?

1725topp said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think I'm disagreeing with that line of origins of Nubian culture. Nor the origins of the Egyptians. Nor when the Arab people came to Africa, just that I've seen images of Arabs & Hebrews in ancient art with what looks like mini fros, even most Egyptians were bald(with a braid of hair) or wore twists(the women) or wigs.

I think we might be having 2 different conversations? I'm not separating any part of Africa. Nor am I saying anything about when Arabs or Hebrews came to Africa. I'm just talking about cultural images of hair styles throught Africa. Maybe I typed a sentence wrong?

I believe it's called Up From Africa, it's a history channel doc by scientists and archeologist that prove (without a shadow of doubt) that the people that created Egytian culture came up from the areas of Central Africa and the areas that were livable that used to be the dessert

Dreamer like Ronnie Talk 2 Russia and American are Prince's light references to Social/Political/Racial issues. Good song. Again it's Prince, I can't say it's a 'solid discussion'

It's a peak into what he might be thinking though. In the same year that album was released, when being interviewed in response to an interviewers use of black Prince pull back his sleave and puts his arm next to hers and asks "Am I?" Again another hint into what may be going on in his mind/heart, but nothing solid. The song Laveux, I hear his struggles with living in a place like America vs Europe (where I believe he feels more free to just be without defining)

*

I can agree that the police looking at Morris was not racial, looking at all the evidence, but when Christopher says to Tricky, "And when the police come to carry yo' ass to jail, this is me. 'He said what officer? My Brother? Oh, no, we definitely have different fathers.'...Check it out. Butterscotch...Chocolate...no way.'" You can't deny the racial undertones there. And while I can agree that the ability of love to overcome all ills, even class, is the central issue of UTCM, for Americans, even in Europe, class and race are rarely separated, even for African-American artists who began travelling to Europe in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Not all of them found a "raceless" Utopia, such as James Baldwin. So, while class is the central issue/hurdle, Christopher's words about skin color make it clear that, again, for many African Americans class and color are usually connected in some way.

*

As for our discussion about Africa and the Afro, I may have misread a sentence so thanks for the clarification.

*

As for "Dreamer," I'm not sure why it would be considered a "light" reference to socio-political issues. He pretty clearly addresses tangible issues, such as DuBois' notion of the colorline being the primary issue of America's present and future and how the issue of the colorline/racism most manifests itself in police brutality toward African Americans. In light of Brown and Garner, how can "Dreamer" be considered "light" when it seems equal to "Sign 'O' the Times" in socio-political engagement as well as pinpoints real and urgent issues for African Americans. Could you provide one or two songs by Prince that do a better job at addressing these issues, or is it that you think that he just addresses these issues in a poor or not well-crafted manner? And, possibly by "light" do you mean "faint" or "passing" or not "thoroughly developed"? If that's the case, I can understand that point, but Prince's imagery and turn of a phrase often--not always--allows him to use impressionism and double entendre in a way to say a lot with a little.

*

As for "Laveux," rather than seeing it as America versus Europe, I see it more like "All the Critics Love you in New York," in which New York becomes a metaphor for the Utopia he desires to create. Like "Paisley Park," it's more of a "space" than an actual place. Yes, actual places can be metaphors for Utopia, but if "Paisley park is in your heart," then it seems that the goal is to manifest this Utopia anywhere/everywhere regardless of physical opposition. Yet, for me, his desire to create a multicultural Utopia is not more dominate in his thinking than engaging issues specific to African Americas. They both are two equal slices on the pie chart. In fact, how can this multicultural Utopia be created when so many whites and others refuse to acknowledge the physical and psychological oppression that African Americans and African/Nubian/Negroid peoples continue to experience? If Prince posted a song about Brown and Garner right now, half the Org would go crazy calling Prince a racist so how can someone like me take seriously many fans' love of the "multicultural Utopian" Prince when they despise him when he's addressing issues germane to the African-American experience? Do they love "multicultural Utopian" Prince, or do they love the Prince that feeds their fantasy regarding the exotic, overly sexual mulatto whose going to fuck his way to salvation?

Over all even when it comes to those 'racial undertones' in UTCM, and yes that movie played with it more, but with Prince I think it's all light weight. I just don't think it is serious. I remember talking with someone about the lack of 'afro descendant people in UTCM' they only saw Jerome Prince and the 'scary woman' near the end. And I think they put too much race issues into it. Because I then posted all the black and mulatto people featured throught the movie. the waitress, the ballet dancer, musicians in the band, the beautiful chic woman in the beginning etc I mean they were everywhere lol but they seemed to have missed it.

.

'Not Thoroughly Thought Out' or not 'completing an idea or thought'
I think because Prince mixes so much of his creative imagination/utopia into his beliefs it is hard to say how much he believes this or that, when it comes to God/Religion/Spirituality/Sex Romance/Race

For a long time even his religious ideals were like that, I think even now still. When I listen to the Rainbow Children, the album people call his Jehovahs Witness album I hear more Egyptology than JW doctrine, the slight and airy references of ethnicity/race are so light that no one can really grasp what he means who he is talking to or the intentions. Which is also why for a long time, even atheists could sing along because it wasn't so defined.

OldFriends4Sale said:

1725topp said:

*

Admitting that there is subjectivity in all of this, what's funny is that I actually like this photo even though the head dress is similar to UTCM. But, this one doesn't cover his head as much, and the head dress and the 'fro seem to combine in some "interesting" consummation.

*

I think you first posted the Bob Ross pic. I love Ross. My father and I spent a many Saturday afternoons watching him paint, teach, and pontificate on PBS. God, I love PBS. My mother and father exposed me to so much wonderful art, but those Saturday evenings watching my father--a Vietnam Vet and Civil Rights activist--"gush" over Ross' creative process still has a special place for me. My father still says, "Now, son, maybe there's a tree that lives right back here...can't you see it?" Returning to our conversation, Ross' 'fro is definitely an example of cultural exchange. And, of course, there is nothing wrong with cultural exchange as long as one party isn't embracing something from another party because they view themselves as inferior. That's what always bothered me about celebrating Madam CJ Walker's financial success because all she really did was earn a fortune by pimping African people's self-hatred. I'm not saying she wasn't a smart business woman, but, more than anything, she understand that African people, especially African Americans, would do anything to erase as much of their African heritage as possible to be accepted by/into the white power structure.

*

I remember Prince discussing his mother's heritage, but in 1980 in three different articles of February, March, and April, Prince couldn't even keep the lie straight of his parents' heritage, and the so-called journalist couldn't be bothered to challenge the manner in which he kept changing his parents' heritage. Based on Dave Hill's book and C. Liegh McInnis' additional interviews, most people seem to identify both his parents, comfortably, as African American, but I'll admit that I wouldn't be shocked if either, especially his mother, was quarter this or one/eight that.

Yeah looking back, it did fit his head in an overbearing way. One of my favorite suite though

He was pretty as hell in that scene. Miss Prince was giving 'em Sue Ellen Ewing big time with that look. The eyes, the way he held his head, the stare, the way he did his mouth when he ran his fingers across the piano keys. That was Sue Ellen big time!

vainandy said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah looking back, it did fit his head in an overbearing way. One of my favorite suite though

He was pretty as hell in that scene. Miss Prince was giving 'em Sue Ellen Ewing big time with that look. The eyes, the way he held his head, the stare, the way he did his mouth when he ran his fingers across the piano keys. That was Sue Ellen big time!

*

We should all be ashamed of how we dressed in the Eighties, especially those of us who were channeling Prince as he was channeling Sue Ellen. :^) Yet, even as a straight dude, I pulled lots of ladies in my blouse...damn shame 'bout them Eighties.

1725topp said:

vainandy said:

He was pretty as hell in that scene. Miss Prince was giving 'em Sue Ellen Ewing big time with that look. The eyes, the way he held his head, the stare, the way he did his mouth when he ran his fingers across the piano keys. That was Sue Ellen big time!

*

We should all be ashamed of how we dressed in the Eighties, especially those of us who were channeling Prince as he was channeling Sue Ellen. :^) Yet, even as a straight dude, I pulled lots of ladies in my blouse...damn shame 'bout them Eighties.

lol isn't the 80s back in fashion now?

vainandy said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah looking back, it did fit his head in an overbearing way. One of my favorite suite though

He was pretty as hell in that scene. Miss Prince was giving 'em Sue Ellen Ewing big time with that look. The eyes, the way he held his head, the stare, the way he did his mouth when he ran his fingers across the piano keys. That was Sue Ellen big time!

lol the Honest Man opening scene is my fav of the movie

OldFriends4Sale said:

1725topp said:

*

I can agree that the police looking at Morris was not racial, looking at all the evidence, but when Christopher says to Tricky, "And when the police come to carry yo' ass to jail, this is me. 'He said what officer? My Brother? Oh, no, we definitely have different fathers.'...Check it out. Butterscotch...Chocolate...no way.'" You can't deny the racial undertones there. And while I can agree that the ability of love to overcome all ills, even class, is the central issue of UTCM, for Americans, even in Europe, class and race are rarely separated, even for African-American artists who began travelling to Europe in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Not all of them found a "raceless" Utopia, such as James Baldwin. So, while class is the central issue/hurdle, Christopher's words about skin color make it clear that, again, for many African Americans class and color are usually connected in some way.

*

As for our discussion about Africa and the Afro, I may have misread a sentence so thanks for the clarification.

*

As for "Dreamer," I'm not sure why it would be considered a "light" reference to socio-political issues. He pretty clearly addresses tangible issues, such as DuBois' notion of the colorline being the primary issue of America's present and future and how the issue of the colorline/racism most manifests itself in police brutality toward African Americans. In light of Brown and Garner, how can "Dreamer" be considered "light" when it seems equal to "Sign 'O' the Times" in socio-political engagement as well as pinpoints real and urgent issues for African Americans. Could you provide one or two songs by Prince that do a better job at addressing these issues, or is it that you think that he just addresses these issues in a poor or not well-crafted manner? And, possibly by "light" do you mean "faint" or "passing" or not "thoroughly developed"? If that's the case, I can understand that point, but Prince's imagery and turn of a phrase often--not always--allows him to use impressionism and double entendre in a way to say a lot with a little.

*

As for "Laveux," rather than seeing it as America versus Europe, I see it more like "All the Critics Love you in New York," in which New York becomes a metaphor for the Utopia he desires to create. Like "Paisley Park," it's more of a "space" than an actual place. Yes, actual places can be metaphors for Utopia, but if "Paisley park is in your heart," then it seems that the goal is to manifest this Utopia anywhere/everywhere regardless of physical opposition. Yet, for me, his desire to create a multicultural Utopia is not more dominate in his thinking than engaging issues specific to African Americas. They both are two equal slices on the pie chart. In fact, how can this multicultural Utopia be created when so many whites and others refuse to acknowledge the physical and psychological oppression that African Americans and African/Nubian/Negroid peoples continue to experience? If Prince posted a song about Brown and Garner right now, half the Org would go crazy calling Prince a racist so how can someone like me take seriously many fans' love of the "multicultural Utopian" Prince when they despise him when he's addressing issues germane to the African-American experience? Do they love "multicultural Utopian" Prince, or do they love the Prince that feeds their fantasy regarding the exotic, overly sexual mulatto whose going to fuck his way to salvation?

Over all even when it comes to those 'racial undertones' in UTCM, and yes that movie played with it more, but with Prince I think it's all light weight. I just don't think it is serious. I remember talking with someone about the lack of 'afro descendant people in UTCM' they only saw Jerome Prince and the 'scary woman' near the end. And I think they put too much race issues into it. Because I then posted all the black and mulatto people featured throught the movie. the waitress, the ballet dancer, musicians in the band, the beautiful chic woman in the beginning etc I mean they were everywhere lol but they seemed to have missed it.

.

'Not Thoroughly Thought Out' or not 'completing an idea or thought'
I think because Prince mixes so much of his creative imagination/utopia into his beliefs it is hard to say how much he believes this or that, when it comes to God/Religion/Spirituality/Sex Romance/Race

For a long time even his religious ideals were like that, I think even now still. When I listen to the Rainbow Children, the album people call his Jehovahs Witness album I hear more Egyptology than JW doctrine, the slight and airy references of ethnicity/race are so light that no one can really grasp what he means who he is talking to or the intentions. Which is also why for a long time, even atheists could sing along because it wasn't so defined.

*

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree with how we define "lightweight" because I do view Prince's discussions of race as often well-defined and serious or a serious aspect of what he considers as the wrong endured by African Americans and what their response should be, understanding that each person is entitled to weigh/consider various options. Just because I am a Black Nationalist does not mean that I don't respect MLK and others and that I can't understand certain aspects of integration as logical, even if I reject the whole of the ideology in favor of Black Nationalism. So, I'm not as concerned with identifying how much of or what has more weight to Prince as I am pleased that he continues to consider and express varying responses and solutions that reflect many African Americans. As an example, I understand the idealism of "Race" and like the music, but when I hear "I don't want to know why others hated each other in the past; I rather pretend they never did," I always think, "Damn, you sound like a child...an ignorant child at that." Ignoring the facts of history does not unite people. And, I always find it interesting that African Americans are always the ones that are asked to "forget" their history, and many of us so willingly do so and wonder why we are so lost.

*

I was the person with whom you had the discussion about the lack of prominent African people in UTCM, and, while I agree that there are more than I remembered, I have maintained that two black men chasing a white woman and then the black man being scared straight by a dark skinned black woman is demeaning to black beauty. Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Why couldn't it have been an older white woman who scared Christopher honest? So, I get your point, especially about the black woman for whom Christopher purchases flowers, but the weight of beauty that the film places on the white lead and the weight of "horror" that the film places on the black woman leaves the scales of beauty unbalanced, and I can say that and still say that I actually like the theme of the film as well as the film itself, even while being dismayed by the perpetuation--though possibly unintended--of black beauty as inferior.

*

For me it is not so much about Prince's fixed belief or position but what he's willing to discuss or what he finds important enough to discuss. As an artist, there are subjects that I discuss because they are important to me, and there are subjects that I discuss because they are important to people that are important to me. For instance, a couple of years ago I had a poem nominated for an award and now I have an article about to be published, and in both cases they were created because a former student and a current student asked me my thoughts about a lynching here in Mississippi (James Anderson) and about Michael Brown and Ferguson. While I thought that both events were bad, I wasn't going to address them because at this point my standard answer is "If African Americans would embrace Black Nationalism and create our own institutions, we would lessen these evils committed against us. But, after two passionate inquiries from my students, I felt compelled, if not obligated, to say something. I'm not saying this is the case with Prince, but it's clear, even with Prince, that he is inspired by his life, what happens to others he knows, and the general public. Yet, the problem for most people is that Prince does not seem to care to make a distinction between to whom this event is/has happened nor does he seem to think that it's a contradiction to weave or amalgamate all of these differing issues and positions into what he seems to view as a seamless narrative even when many see his positions/songs/narratives as fragmented and, often, conflicting, if not hypocritical. So, whether it's "We March" or "2045 Radical Man" or "Dreamer," I'm just glad that the man who was one of the many inspirations for me to be creative is willing to address issues that are important to me and my community. Only a few people tried to discredit "Say it Loud (I'm Black, and I'm Proud)" when James Brown began permming his hair again. While Brown may have had a different notion of what it meant to be black and proud, many in the African American community were pleased to hear well-crafted art created that reflected a changing socio-political position/ideology in their community, especially from an artist that was so popular in their community.

*

And, I may be wrong for saying this, but the fact that even atheists could sing along was more about their self-delusion or desire to hear what they wanted and ignore the rest than about a lack of definition or ambiguity in Prince's writing. I'm going to continue to maintain that anyone who is/was surprised by The Rainbow Children or who could not "fathom" that Prince could produce an album like The Rainbow Children was simply somebody who was not listening. While Prince has, like most people, mixed pieces of this and that in his religious ideology, it was always rooted within a Judeo-Christian foundation. Again, the only way not to see the Judeo-Christian foundation in his early work is that they just didn't want to see that. From "Annie Christian" to "Eye No" and "Lovesexy," I'm just amazed that some folks couldn't "fathom" The Rainbow Children coming.

OldFriends4Sale said:

1725topp said:

*

We should all be ashamed of how we dressed in the Eighties, especially those of us who were channeling Prince as he was channeling Sue Ellen. :^) Yet, even as a straight dude, I pulled lots of ladies in my blouse...damn shame 'bout them Eighties.

lol isn't the 80s back in fashion now?

*

Sadly, and, when I see young people rocking 80s fashion, I just want to tackle them and say, "Nooooooooo! In ten years you'll have pictures that will haunt you for the rest of your life!" Speaking of that, let me go and make my ransom to the one person who still has proof that I ever had a perm.