pald1 said:

Actually, i did...It just wasn't what you wanted to hear or read...

pald1 said:

It doesn't sound like he was talking to you...lol...

sweething said:

I'm not dismissing your opinion because I have another. In fact, the reverse it true. I'm telling you not to dismiss mine. Wow. Can you read?

pald1 said:

PALD said: something that we can all agree on - that is, Prince 'aint as good as he used to be. Voila.

Murph said: This is indeed correct....And I don't think anyone that's thinking rationally would say otherwise..


I commented on the statements you both made about Prince not being as good as he used to be. Each of my posts challenges this belief. Your entire thread is based on the premise that Prince isn't as good as he used to be and you try to cloak it in a debate about other artists with lesser talent and how being held to a mediocre standard is rightly or just for Prince--not true.

I agree he is held to a different standard -- no question. I don't agree with the statement that he is not relevnt today and there is nothing you say that will make me believe this, no matter how you try to wrap it.

sweething said:

You're getting awfully repetitive aren't you?

pald1 said:

PALD said: something that we can all agree on - that is, Prince 'aint as good as he used to be. Voila.

Murph said: This is indeed correct....And I don't think anyone that's thinking rationally would say otherwise..


I commented on the statements you both made about Prince not being as good as he used to be. Each of my posts challenges this belief. Your entire thread is based on the premise that Prince isn't as good as he used to be and you try to cloak it in a debate about other artists with lesser talent and how being held to a mediocre standard is rightly or just for Prince--not true.

I agree he is held to a different standard -- no question. I don't agree with the statement that he is not relevnt today and there is nothing you say that will make me believe this, no matter how you try to wrap it.

And, clearly I read very well.


[Edited 2/21/10 20:52pm]

pald1 said:

As are you.



//
[Edited 2/21/10 20:57pm]

sweething said:

You're weird.

pald1 said:

You're getting awfully repetitive aren't you?

sweething said:

Ok, let's see if I can teach you the basics of comedy. If you're going to make an aside, make it relative. Bouncing one of my phrases back at me is both meanlingless and unfunny when it has no context. Do you understand?

pald1 said:

Your comment proves my point. No further commentary necessary.

Graycap23 said:

Yes, that's what makes it all so difficult to "swallow" like peanut butter sticking to the roof of your mouth....

Prince HAS to be better, smarter, more gifted.....than the average..... reminds me of how much of an idiot our last president was (undoubtedly) and he was able to get away with more than I can say in a few words...bankrupting this country....Obama on the other hand is having to pay in generations of blood for the opportunity to hold the same position.....excuse me while I puke...

sweething said:

wow. I have a few friends who are lawyers, very successful, in various types of practices, mostly in L.A. One thing they ALWAYS credit their success to is the fact that, every day, they have to prove that they are as good as or better than their white counterparts. For instance, many of their white counterparts are "pedigree", meaning they typically went to an Ivy league law school that, regardless of how they did in school, got them in the door and kept them there. My friends, in contrast, went to top schools, but had to fight their way into good firms, and work twice as hard, just to be able to stay. They say that this dynamic, the fact that they have to work so hard to prove that they belong where they are, has made them far better than their white counterparts with regard their respective jobs. It actually makes sense that if you know you're golden, you do not work as hard. When you know your not, and you can be bumped for the smallest infraction, you work your tail off.
I read in this thread that someone says that this is the 21st century, and these things should not exist, but the fact is that, as a group (not individually, there are always exceptions to the rule), whites, especially those with power, simply do not like to see people fo color do as well as, or even exceed, their abilities.
I'm not, and I don't think they are saying that whites in general are like this, but the higher you get in the food chain, the more this plays out.

BlackandRising said:

it's an awkward situation, but it's about time people who identify themselves as black stop comparing themselves to others. in africa, where the process of developing has been slooooowwwww due to corruption, etc., africans find that there is a need to maintain progresive elements of their culture, but technologies, practices and other arenas of professionalism must be mastered. prince is a perfect example of how to conquer and make the digital garden work for you.

rastas refer to it as the shitstem

NelsonR said:

That is exactly what they do, but they don't ignore the reality of the situation when they discuss their day. They put in the work, do better than their counterparts, and succeed, in spite of what they discuss amongst themselves at the end of the day.

Reading the recent rash of "Prince Has Lost It" threads got me thinking about the exceptional expectations placed on some music artists...After doing a little research I've come to a conclusion:

I believe we are dealing with the "Super Negro Theory"....

After having a long conversation with some Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, Joni Mitchell, and Bruce Springsteen fans (on various occasions), it's jarringly obvious that there are different standards placed on certain acts across racial lines...But before some of you start accusing me of playing some antiquated race card, hear me out...

This is not a simplistic case of black artists being judged unfairly when it comes to their white counterparts....If you ask me if Justin Timberlake deserves more acclaim, respect, and credit for his art than say an Usher, I would give a resounding YES...Because after all, as annoying as Timberlake can be, he actually proved himself given that he writes, produces, and at times plays on his own material (which is much more nuanced than Usher's work) and gives a more polished and complete live show when Usher still relies heavily on songwriters and producers to make him relevant and keep up with the Tre Songz of the world....

BUT, here's the RUB...THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND WHEN IT COMES TO EXPECTATIONS OF BLACK ARTISTS

Either we are expected to be "entertainers" who rely heavily on the machine or we are expected to be THE SUPER NEGRO...And the crazy part is, we are ALL (black, white, asian, latino ect, ect...) to blame...

So what is the SUPER NEGRO you ask? It's the self-contained artist who is deemed to have otherworldly musical powers...People don't view their art as coming from some intellectual, witty world view (I.E. Bob Dylan or Bowie).....They look at the SUPER NEGRO as being somehow mystical...a talent whose' art cannot be explained without hyperbole...Talent that comes naturally and not from good ol fashioned skill and hard work..

Through the years, there have been many notable SUPER NEGROS: Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, James Brown, Sun-Ra, Bob Marley, Stevie Wonder, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, Aretha Franklin, Michael Jackson, Prince, Rakim....These artists are looked at beyond being "good" musicians or vocalists/performers...In some cases the super negro has to live up to the hype of CHANGING the course of their respective musical genre, not just producing a good song...They can't just create a song to be enjoyed by the masses...They have to write, produce, arrange, play on, and sing on the material in order to be taken seriously as an artist...They can't be Madonna...

So how does the SUPER NEGRO THEORY fit into the recent Prince-Is-Finished threads?...

Just look at the way their EXCEPTIONAL white peers are treated...I recall when Stevie Wonder released Hotter Than July some critics complained that it was not as ambitious as Songs In The Key of Life...They balked at the nerve of Stevie Wonder just releasing an "R&B" album that didn't push the boundaries of music...How dare he!!!...They deemed it a "good' album, and that's as far as they would go.....Now let's flip to when Bruce Springsteen releases Born In The USA...There was no mention of the album being less artistic than Nebraska...In fact critics lauded Bruce for being able to expand his musical base and reach out to the masses with his dignity intact...You gotta love it, huh?

But the Super Negro Theory goes into overdrive once an artist gets past their prime...and here is where Prince fits in....

I will be the first to say that there have been lackluster and suck ass Prince albums (The Symbol album, Chaos & Disorder, New Power Soul, some of Musicology...ect...)...I have not always been happy with the man's work...But my expectations of him have always been reasonable...It's the same reasonable expectations that Bruce Springsteen fans have on the Boss...He can make a back-to-basics, roots-heavy album influnced by Woody Guthrie and no one (not his fans) would ever accuse him of leaning lazily on his influences...Neil Young can make a country-based album and his fans will judge it on the bases of it quality, not whether or not it strikes the same introspective chord as Harvest...

Yet, Prince (The Super Negro) has to keep pushing forward...If he's not re-inventing the musical wheel he is deemed as finished...If he makes music that recalls his own prominent influence (James Brown) he is looked at as being a JB cover band...Remember, the Super Negro cannot simply just make music just 'cause...He/she has to be conceptual, original at all times, and recall the levels of their greatest years.....

But the truth is, we are all accomplices here.......Instead of judging Stevie, Sly, Prince and the like on the same curve as their white counterparts we look at them as being more than human...We hold on dear to the whole "written, produced, performed, composed" tag for dear life, instead appreciating the fact that at the end of it all, these acts are just musicians who happened to get their chance to shine...

Prince's music today reminds us all that we get old...We struggle to re-live our prime years...And for some folks, they have come to terms with this, choosing to connect with him on very specific levels (such as his live show, which is still viewed by many to be pretty damn good) and not just the albums...

Others,however, depend on Prince to make GREAT, challenging music to help them cope with the fact that they are no longer in their own prime years...Thay are not the same person they used to be when Prince could do no wrong in the '80s...Prince's current Golden Years state is a brutal reminder that all of our prime years are behind us....This is a painful realization, ya'll....

In short, Prince fans who find the man unbearable should do their peace of mind a favor and just wait until he passes away and dies.....He's never going to give you what u want at this point...Or, you can pick and choose what you still dig about the man...Or you can go the route of a Bruce Springsteen fan and just enjoy the old man for what he is in 2010 and be thankful that you have had a chance to witness him when he was all that you ever wanted him to be...

Life is more easier that way, right?
[Edited 2/20/10 12:04pm]

Murph, I would agree with your basic premise based on the following societal habits:

(But first a disclaimer: this post is not intended to offend anyone. It is an observation, from my experience in American society on a broad scale.) When I use the term "white-boy" it is for a particular mindset and not a generalization about caucasion people.

1. the "guitar" has always been looked at as a "white boy's instrument". Because both Prince and Jimi rocked the guitar scene so tough, rather than acknowledging that good guitar playing comes from talent and hard work; in order to retain a certain "superiority," the white media instead classified Prince and Jimi as "sper negros" -- because they were able to surpass in a "white man's arena". (See Tiger Woods, Barack Obama, Sammy Davis, etc.) This is more about the white-boy mindset that holds certain "superiority" beliefs about themselves, than it is about Prince personally.

2. With this ^ mindset it is therefore essential that Prince, et al., be sanctioned to a lifetime of either "proving" he is in fact a "super negro" and that such greatness wasn't just a fluke -- and that is where all the negativity comes in -- or that the "guitar" and the "white boys" mastery of it is superior and that Prince's mastery was in fact a fluke.

3. #2 is in fact the underlying cause of the constant criticisms. Many want to dispel or downplay the obvious fact that Prince "beat the white boys at their own game" so to speak and he did it with hard work, intellecutal capability and God given talent. Hence we focus on some of his other attributes all the while looking for the "kink in his armor".

4. Another contributing factor is Prince's appearance and the fact that he is not easily "bought off" and has stood up to the white corporate "masters". This makes him even more of a target for scruitiny as he is a "complete man" not 1/2 or some less than "whole" man.

5. The public looks at him -- small in physical stature, fine as all get out, plays the game his way, has beautiful woman, wears what he wants to wear, isn't gay, isn't an alcoholic or drug abuser --- yada, yada, yada --- that's too much for one "regular" negro to have -- justification is: he must be a "super negro" -- because for some, the thought of all male negros being able to do the same is too much to bear -- if all male negros could do this -- that means the old stereotypes of black males is proven false and therefore, white males are not as "superior" as they have been promoted to believe --- this rocks the very foundation of American society.

So, the instistence that Prince forever more play earth-shattering, groundbreaking, incomprable music simply gives those the opportunity to feel comfortable in their beliefs of white-boy superiority (in this arena), because each time he doesn't "meet the bar" it registers as "proof" that he's not superior after all and in their minds that he got "lucky" with a few hits -- this leaves them free to continue worshiping their heroes without having to contend with the underlying, institutionalized, subtle racism as to why, even though Prince is the greatest, they prefer -- Rolling Stones, Grateful Dead, Beatles, etc.



edit: add note
[Edited 2/21/10 18:44pm]

Murph, I would agree with your basic premise based on the following societal habits:

(But first a disclaimer: this post is not intended to offend anyone. It is an observation, from my experience in American society on a broad scale.) When I use the term "white-boy" it is for a particular mindset and not a generalization about caucasion people.

1. the "guitar" has always been looked at as a "white boy's instrument". Because both Prince and Jimi rocked the guitar scene so tough, rather than acknowledging that good guitar playing comes from talent and hard work; in order to retain a certain "superiority," the white media instead classified Prince and Jimi as "sper negros" -- because they were able to surpass in a "white man's arena". (See Tiger Woods, Barack Obama, Sammy Davis, etc.) This is more about the white-boy mindset that holds certain "superiority" beliefs about themselves, than it is about Prince personally.

2. With this ^ mindset it is therefore essential that Prince, et al., be sanctioned to a lifetime of either "proving" he is in fact a "super negro" and that such greatness wasn't just a fluke -- and that is where all the negativity comes in -- or that the "guitar" and the "white boys" mastery of it is superior and that Prince's mastery was in fact a fluke.

3. #2 is in fact the underlying cause of the constant criticisms. Many want to dispel or downplay the obvious fact that Prince "beat the white boys at their own game" so to speak and he did it with hard work, intellecutal capability and God given talent. Hence we focus on some of his other attributes all the while looking for the "kink in his armor".

4. Another contributing factor is Prince's appearance and the fact that he is not easily "bought off" and has stood up to the white corporate "masters". This makes him even more of a target for scruitiny as he is a "complete man" not 1/2 or some less than "whole" man.

5. The public looks at him -- small in physical stature, fine as all get out, plays the game his way, has beautiful woman, wears what he wants to wear, isn't gay, isn't an alcoholic or drug abuser --- yada, yada, yada --- that's too much for one "regular" negro to have -- justification is: he must be a "super negro" -- because for some, the thought of all male negros being able to do the same is too much to bear -- if all male negros could do this -- that means the old stereotypes of black males is proven false and therefore, white males are not as "superior" as they have been promoted to believe --- this rocks the very foundation of American society.

So, the instistence that Prince forever more play earth-shattering, groundbreaking, incomprable music simply gives those the opportunity to feel comfortable in their beliefs of white-boy superiority (in this arena), because each time he doesn't "meet the bar" it registers as "proof" that he's not superior after all and in their minds that he got "lucky" with a few hits -- this leaves them free to continue worshiping their heroes without having to contend with the underlying, institutionalized, subtle racism as to why, even though Prince is the greatest, they prefer -- Rolling Stones, Grateful Dead, Beatles, etc.



edit: add note
[Edited 2/21/10 18:44pm]

murph said:

Ach, I'm disappointed. I really thought you were smarter...

Didn't the same cast of "characters" come out to play the last time there was a thread touching on racial disparity and double standards?

pald1 said:

PALD said: something that we can all agree on - that is, Prince 'aint as good as he used to be. Voila.

Murph said: This is indeed correct....And I don't think anyone that's thinking rationally would say otherwise..


I commented on the statements you both made about Prince not being as good as he used to be. Each of my posts challenges this belief. Your entire thread is based on the premise that Prince isn't as good as he used to be and you try to cloak it in a debate about other artists with lesser talent and how being held to a mediocre standard is rightly or just for Prince--not true.

I agree he is held to a different standard -- no question. I don't agree with the statement that he is not relevnt today and there is nothing you say that will make me believe this, no matter how you try to wrap it.

And, clearly I read very well.


[Edited 2/21/10 20:52pm]

murph said:

I love it!! and honestly found no reason to sift through it lookin for any context to take offense to. He is not afforded the evenflow of normal artistry nor the natural drop off of aging-he's been expressing himself publicly longer than some people here have been alive-what more can he say?. I will also admit that as an old school first generation fan i have compared him to the past but i'm grown enough to admit (and my 21 year old daughter will remind me) that i'm just being a grumpy old man. Nobody here wants to cop to getting old, so we pick at Prince's carcuss to make ourselves feel better.We are pawns of corporate america, we are the generation that created the billion dollar fear industry and we want to impose our fear of mortality on prince. A lot of us havent matured, even sexually so a lot of us want prince to remain nasty (in content) to comply with our own suspended state of grownalescence. It's almost a gnawing lack of social esteem that we as black folks need artistic deity to invest in emotionally- we cant stomach the very real possibility that prince is simply a hard working motherfucker who had his run. Thanks to that ethic i choose to track his advancement as a guitarist, i consider it amazing that age has forced him into a singular focus on the insturment and he is actually establishing a serious legacy as one of the greats, as well as most under rated.The Written, Produced, arranged ect tagline has hindered his growth in the later stages and this is proof that the Super Negro theory may have affected even Prince himself.How can i post this on my facebook? lol

The same people who said they cant read that shit are the same people that come here and post "lame" as a 'song review' pay them no attention.

pald1 said:

Ouch...We are throwing out insults now?...Gotta love the Org...

murph said:

nice dodge

paisleypark4 said:

- as a foreigner, a dane/ non-american, I'm still confused what this thread is all about, and I didn't read the 1st post.

- but I did comment on the new song "Purple & Gold": "lame"

you got me there....

dreamshaman32 said:

Thanks for the respect...Like you said, it's not hard to understand....People have been trying to boil this down to Prince getting criticized for his art because he's black, which is something I never said...lol...It's much more complex than that...And then there are those who want me to throw out specific instances of Prince dealing with the Super Negro theory when I've given more than a enough...

I respect anyone who has their own views and just respectfully disagrees with my premise...But all that other agenda-driven back and forth stuff, I can see right through that...