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murph said: NouveauDance said: murph, could you expound on exactly what you mean when you say that black musicians have always been viewed as mystical or super, I'm not entirely certain what it is you mean. Great OP btw.  Thanks homie....Well, it's an historical thing... Since the dawn of popular music black artists have always been looked at as naturally possessing musical attributes....This started with blues artist and then jazz...Blacks were looked at as having some "special" feel when it came to music...Once the likes of Louis Armstrong and then Duke Ellington came along, it was a wrap....They were deemed "special"...To many people and music critics, their musical success had nothing to do with hard work and intelligence...Because, how could their music be intelligent when it came so naturally for these artists, right? Ok, so Louie Armstrong DID have special feel. The special feel was his thing. "To many people and the music critics"... Ok that's where it would help for you to specify. What was said exactly that makes you believe this? Show yr sources. You don't know what 'people' thought, unless you can provide some evidence. Also, it wouldn't be fair to just take comments from the 40s and just transpose them on to the present as if that's how people thought today. You'd need to show how that's true. |
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JudasLChrist said: murph said: Thanks homie....Well, it's an historical thing... Since the dawn of popular music black artists have always been looked at as naturally possessing musical attributes....This started with blues artist and then jazz...Blacks were looked at as having some "special" feel when it came to music...Once the likes of Louis Armstrong and then Duke Ellington came along, it was a wrap....They were deemed "special"...To many people and music critics, their musical success had nothing to do with hard work and intelligence...Because, how could their music be intelligent when it came so naturally for these artists, right? Ok, so Louie Armstrong DID have special feel. The special feel was his thing. "To many people and the music critics"... Ok that's where it would help for you to specify. What was said exactly that makes you believe this? Show yr sources. You don't know what 'people' thought, unless you can provide some evidence. Also, it wouldn't be fair to just take comments from the 40s and just transpose them on to the present as if that's how people thought today. You'd need to show how that's true. Read my last post to your last comment...I think I've made my underlining thesis very clear....And again, thanks for the interesting debate.... | |
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murph said: JudasLChrist said: Ok, so Louie Armstrong DID have special feel. The special feel was his thing. "To many people and the music critics"... Ok that's where it would help for you to specify. What was said exactly that makes you believe this? Show yr sources. You don't know what 'people' thought, unless you can provide some evidence. Also, it wouldn't be fair to just take comments from the 40s and just transpose them on to the present as if that's how people thought today. You'd need to show how that's true. Read my last post to your last comment...I think I've made my underlining thesis very clear....And again, thanks for the interesting debate.... Yes, you've made yr thesis clear, but not the reasoning and evidence for yr thesis clear. |
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JudasLChrist said: murph said: Read my last post to your last comment...I think I've made my underlining thesis very clear....And again, thanks for the interesting debate.... Yes, you've made yr thesis clear, but not the reasoning and evidence for yr thesis clear. Hey...those are the breaks....Sometimes we agree with a theory and sometimes we don't...That's the great thing about debate...Stay postive homie... | |
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murph said: JudasLChrist said: Yes, you've made yr thesis clear, but not the reasoning and evidence for yr thesis clear. Hey...those are the breaks....Sometimes we agree with a theory and sometimes we don't...That's the great thing about debate...Stay postive homie... But see, that's not a debate when you shy away from actual engagement in yr own ideas. I think if you are going to put something out there that's provocative, you have a responsibility to back up what you are saying. If you can't back it up then you should say, "I don't have evidence for it, this is just my opinion." But you are not even doing that. We need to conquer White Supremacy. I'm not sure that pulling random theories about race/cultural politics out of yr ass helps, ya know? |
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murph said: NouveauDance said: murph, could you expound on exactly what you mean when you say that black musicians have always been viewed as mystical or super, I'm not entirely certain what it is you mean. Great OP btw. Thanks homie....Well, it's an historical thing... Since the dawn of popular music black artists have always been looked at as naturally possessing musical attributes....This started with blues artist and then jazz...Blacks were looked at as having some "special" feel when it came to music...Once the likes of Louis Armstrong and then Duke Ellington came along, it was a wrap....They were deemed "special"...To many people and music critics, their musical success had nothing to do with hard work and intelligence...Because, how could their music be intelligent when it came so naturally for these artists, right? Well, flash forward to Stevie and Prince and you can read the rest of my OP to connect the dots... And thanks for the kind words.... OK, I got you now. I was thinking you meant something along those lines but didn't want to read that into it if it wasn't what you meant. I can see where you are coming from, and I do agree this idea is instilled somehow in our collective culture. I suppose depending on your outlook, this could be a compliment or a put down - i.e. being 'natural' at something can be good, but can also take away personal responsibility for the talent. This seems part of a bigger picture though not just about music - kind of hooked into the overall racial stereotypes. I don't think I agree with everything in your OP, but  for a provoking thread we need more of those. | |
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I dont agree with your "Super Negro" theory. Its got nothing to do with being black. Anyone regardless of  race that has superachieved, like Prince, will have high expectations placed on them. If, say, Amy Winehouse or Lady Gaga turn in album after album of dull, dated funk in the future, they too will be dissed. Look at Paul McCartney. Is he a Negro? He's been damned with the same critiscism as Prince ie blanding out, forgetting to write any memorable tunes, post-Beatles. | |
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JudasLChrist said: murph said: Hey...those are the breaks....Sometimes we agree with a theory and sometimes we don't...That's the great thing about debate...Stay postive homie... But see, that's not a debate when you shy away from actual engagement in yr own ideas. I think if you are going to put something out there that's provocative, you have a responsibility to back up what you are saying. If you can't back it up then you should say, "I don't have evidence for it, this is just my opinion." But you are not even doing that. We need to conquer White Supremacy. I'm not sure that pulling random theories about race/cultural politics out of yr ass helps, ya know? Nah...You see what u see...No need for insults...Unless that was your whole angle in the first place...Ya, know?... | |
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Graycap23 said: My premise is this on a lot of Levels: If Prince was a white artist with everything else being equal, he would be considered the GREATEST artist of all-time hands down.
Instead of Michael Jackson?.. Stop dividing the world into black and white. We're all grown ups here | |
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Murph, I would agree with your basic premise based on the following societal habits:
(But first a disclaimer: this post is not intended to offend anyone. It is an observation, from my experience in American society on a broad scale.) When I use the term "white-boy" it is for a particular mindset and not a generalization about caucasion people. 1. the "guitar" has always been looked at as a "white boy's instrument". Because both Prince and Jimi rocked the guitar scene so tough, rather than acknowledging that good guitar playing comes from talent and hard work; in order to retain a certain "superiority," the white media instead classified Prince and Jimi as "sper negros" -- because they were able to surpass in a "white man's arena". (See Tiger Woods, Barack Obama, Sammy Davis, etc.) This is more about the white-boy mindset that holds certain "superiority" beliefs about themselves, than it is about Prince personally. 2. With this ^ mindset it is therefore essential that Prince, et al., be sanctioned to a lifetime of either "proving" he is in fact a "super negro" and that such greatness wasn't just a fluke -- and that is where all the negativity comes in -- or that the "guitar" and the "white boys" mastery of it is superior and that Prince's mastery was in fact a fluke. 3. #2 is in fact the underlying cause of the constant criticisms. Many want to dispel or downplay the obvious fact that Prince "beat the white boys at their own game" so to speak and he did it with hard work, intellecutal capability and God given talent. Hence we focus on some of his other attributes all the while looking for the "kink in his armor". 4. Another contributing factor is Prince's appearance and the fact that he is not easily "bought off" and has stood up to the white corporate "masters". This makes him even more of a target for scruitiny as he is a "complete man" not 1/2 or some less than "whole" man. 5. The public looks at him -- small in physical stature, fine as all get out, plays the game his way, has beautiful woman, wears what he wants to wear, isn't gay, isn't an alcoholic or drug abuser --- yada, yada, yada --- that's too much for one "regular" negro to have -- justification is: he must be a "super negro" -- because for some, the thought of all male negros being able to do the same is too much to bear -- if all male negros could do this -- that means the old stereotypes of black males is proven false and therefore, white males are not as "superior" as they have been promoted to believe --- this rocks the very foundation of American society. So, the instistence that Prince forever more play earth-shattering, groundbreaking, incomprable music simply gives those the opportunity to feel comfortable in their beliefs of white-boy superiority (in this arena), because each time he doesn't "meet the bar" it registers as "proof" that he's not superior after all and in their minds that he got "lucky" with a few hits -- this leaves them free to continue worshiping their heroes without having to contend with the underlying, institutionalized, subtle racism as to why, even though Prince is the greatest, they prefer -- Rolling Stones, Grateful Dead, Beatles, etc. edit: add note [Edited 2/21/10 18:44pm] | |
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LittleSmedley said: Graycap23 said: My premise is this on a lot of Levels: If Prince was a white artist with everything else being equal, he would be considered the GREATEST artist of all-time hands down.
Instead of Michael Jackson?.. Stop dividing the world into black and white. We're all grown ups here I'd love 2 stop.....but that is not that way the GAME is played. Honestly, MJ and Prince are worlds apart from a talent perspective so I tend not 2 compare the 2. | |
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sweething said: Murph, I would agree with your basic premise based on the following societal habits:
(But first a disclaimer: this post is not intended to offend anyone. It is an observation, from my experience in American society on a broad scale.) 1. the "guitar" has always been looked at as a "white boy's instrument". Because both Prince and Jimi rocked the guitar scene so tough, rather than acknowledging that good guitar playing comes from talent and hard work; in order to retain a certain "superiority," the white media instead classified Prince and Jimi as "sper negros" -- because they were able to surpass in a "white man's arena". (See Tiger Woods, Barack Obama, Sammy Davis, etc.) This is more about the white-boy mindset that holds certain "superiority" beliefs about themselves, than it is about Prince personally. 2. With this ^ mindset it is therefore essential that Prince, et al., be sanctioned to a lifetime of either "proving" he is in fact a "super negro" and that such greatness wasn't just a fluke -- and that is where all the negativity comes in -- or that the "guitar" and the "white boys" mastery of it is superior and that Prince's mastery was in fact a fluke. 3. #2 is in fact the underlying cause of the constant criticisms. Many want to dispel or downplay the obvious fact that Prince "beat the white boys at their own game" so to speak and he did it with hard work, intellecutal capability and God given talent. Hence we focus on some of his other attributes all the while looking for the "kink in his armor". 4. Another contributing factor is Prince's appearance and the fact that he is not easily "bought off" and has stood up to the white corporate "masters". This makes him even more of a target for scruitiny as he is a "complete man" not 1/2 or some less than "whole" man. 5. The public looks at him -- small in physical stature, fine as all get out, plays the game his way, has beautiful woman, wears what he wants to wear, isn't gay, isn't an alcoholic or drug abuser --- yada, yada, yada --- that's too much for one "regular" negro to have -- justification is: he must be a "super negro" -- because for some, the thought of all male negros being able to do the same is too much to bear -- if all male negros could do this -- that means the old stereotypes of black males is proven false and therefore, white males are not as "superior" as they have been promoted to believe --- this rocks the very foundation of American society. So, the instistence that Prince forever more play earth-shattering, groundbreaking, incomprable music simply gives those the opportunity to feel comfortable in their beliefs of white-boy superiority (in this arena), because each time he doesn't "meet the bar" it registers as "proof" that he's not superior after all and in their minds that he got "lucky" with a few hits -- this leaves them free to continue worshiping their heroes without having to contend with the underlying, institutionalized, subtle racism as to why, even though Prince is the greatest, they prefer -- Rolling Stones, Grateful Dead, Beatles, etc. Wow excellent feedback sweething  u totally nailed this one. U dotted the i's and crossed the t's. I hope Prince gets 2 read this. | |
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pennylover said: sweething said: Murph, I would agree with your basic premise based on the following societal habits:
(But first a disclaimer: this post is not intended to offend anyone. It is an observation, from my experience in American society on a broad scale.) 1. the "guitar" has always been looked at as a "white boy's instrument". Because both Prince and Jimi rocked the guitar scene so tough, rather than acknowledging that good guitar playing comes from talent and hard work; in order to retain a certain "superiority," the white media instead classified Prince and Jimi as "sper negros" -- because they were able to surpass in a "white man's arena". (See Tiger Woods, Barack Obama, Sammy Davis, etc.) This is more about the white-boy mindset that holds certain "superiority" beliefs about themselves, than it is about Prince personally. 2. With this ^ mindset it is therefore essential that Prince, et al., be sanctioned to a lifetime of either "proving" he is in fact a "super negro" and that such greatness wasn't just a fluke -- and that is where all the negativity comes in -- or that the "guitar" and the "white boys" mastery of it is superior and that Prince's mastery was in fact a fluke. 3. #2 is in fact the underlying cause of the constant criticisms. Many want to dispel or downplay the obvious fact that Prince "beat the white boys at their own game" so to speak and he did it with hard work, intellecutal capability and God given talent. Hence we focus on some of his other attributes all the while looking for the "kink in his armor". 4. Another contributing factor is Prince's appearance and the fact that he is not easily "bought off" and has stood up to the white corporate "masters". This makes him even more of a target for scruitiny as he is a "complete man" not 1/2 or some less than "whole" man. 5. The public looks at him -- small in physical stature, fine as all get out, plays the game his way, has beautiful woman, wears what he wants to wear, isn't gay, isn't an alcoholic or drug abuser --- yada, yada, yada --- that's too much for one "regular" negro to have -- justification is: he must be a "super negro" -- because for some, the thought of all male negros being able to do the same is too much to bear -- if all male negros could do this -- that means the old stereotypes of black males is proven false and therefore, white males are not as "superior" as they have been promoted to believe --- this rocks the very foundation of American society. So, the instistence that Prince forever more play earth-shattering, groundbreaking, incomprable music simply gives those the opportunity to feel comfortable in their beliefs of white-boy superiority (in this arena), because each time he doesn't "meet the bar" it registers as "proof" that he's not superior after all and in their minds that he got "lucky" with a few hits -- this leaves them free to continue worshiping their heroes without having to contend with the underlying, institutionalized, subtle racism as to why, even though Prince is the greatest, they prefer -- Rolling Stones, Grateful Dead, Beatles, etc. Wow excellent feedback sweething u totally nailed this one. U dotted the i's and crossed the t's. I hope Prince gets 2 read this. i dunno. Sometimes it seems like America's well behind Europe in regards to these things. White-boy mindset? What fucking century is this? | |
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LittleSmedley said: pennylover said: Wow excellent feedback sweething u totally nailed this one. U dotted the i's and crossed the t's. I hope Prince gets 2 read this. i dunno. Sometimes it seems like America's well behind Europe in regards to these things. White-boy mindset? What fucking century is this?America is still the most racist country in the world. Just watch television and see all the apologies for shit people should've never said but still said anyway. When  go 2 a Prince concert or related event it's all  up in the house but when log onto this site and the miasma of bitchiness is completely overwhelming! | |
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LittleSmedley said: pennylover said: Wow excellent feedback sweething u totally nailed this one. U dotted the i's and crossed the t's. I hope Prince gets 2 read this. i dunno. Sometimes it seems like America's well behind Europe in regards to these things. White-boy mindset? What fucking century is this?Remember, this country was built on the concept of slavery and the LAW that black men were counted as 3/4 of a person. Its our history, not pretty but true. | |
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sweething said: LittleSmedley said: i dunno. Sometimes it seems like America's well behind Europe in regards to these things. White-boy mindset? What fucking century is this?Remember, this country was built on the concept of slavery and the LAW that black men were counted as 3/4 of a person. Its our history, not pretty but true. Not easy 2 forget..... | |
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Graycap23 said: sweething said: Remember, this country was built on the concept of slavery and the LAW that black men were counted as 3/4 of a person. Its our history, not pretty but true. Not easy 2 forget..... no-one alive today passed those laws u'll always have racists, of every race. its life. Its not a white thing Maybe i have a different perspective, im in london which is multi cultural for the most part, happily. The make-up of my office is about 40% white, 20% afro caribbean, 10% african, and the rest a mixture (maori, hungarian, white south africans, one mixed race south african, sikhs, etc). We all get the fuck on. | |
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Graycap23 said: sweething said: Remember, this country was built on the concept of slavery and the LAW that black men were counted as 3/4 of a person. Its our history, not pretty but true. Not easy 2 forget..... Yes, that's what makes it all so difficult to "swallow" like peanut butter sticking to the roof of your mouth.... Prince HAS to be better, smarter, more gifted.....than the average..... reminds me of how much of an idiot our last president was (undoubtedly) and he was able to get away with more than I can say in a few words...bankrupting this country....Obama on the other hand is having to pay in generations of blood for the opportunity to hold the same position.....excuse me while I puke... | |
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Working through all this pseudo-intellectual verbiage has led me to one conclusion - something that we can all agree on - that is, Prince 'aint as good as he used to be. Voila. | |
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LittleSmedley said: Graycap23 said: Not easy 2 forget..... no-one alive today passed those laws u'll always have racists, of every race. its life. Its not a white thing Maybe i have a different perspective, im in london which is multi cultural for the most part, happily. The make-up of my office is about 40% white, 20% afro caribbean, 10% african, and the rest a mixture (maori, hungarian, white south africans, one mixed race south african, sikhs, etc). We all get the fuck on. How many members of Parliament are not European, White Anglo? I'm curious? | |
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pald1 said: Working through all this pseudo-intellectual verbiage has led me to one conclusion - something that we can all agree on - that is, Prince 'aint as good as he used to be. Voila.
It depends on what you mean when you say....not as good as he used to be....I think many people would certainly disagree; but we all have opinions. | |
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sweething said: pald1 said: Working through all this pseudo-intellectual verbiage has led me to one conclusion - something that we can all agree on - that is, Prince 'aint as good as he used to be. Voila.
It depends on what you mean when you say....not as good as he used to be....I think many people would certainly disagree; but we all have opinions. Not sure you've been reading this thread... | |
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LittleSmedley said: Graycap23 said: Not easy 2 forget..... no-one alive today passed those laws .. What does that have 2 do with LIVING with those same laws? | |
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pald1 said: sweething said: It depends on what you mean when you say....not as good as he used to be....I think many people would certainly disagree; but we all have opinions. Not sure you've been reading this thread... Well, of course I've read the entire thread, that's in part what my comments are based on...Prince is better than most white or black, still. And, he's better in spite of the challenges and criticisms he faced. Just because everyone doesn't love every song doesn't mean he's less than or not as good as he used to be...in many ways he's better than he used to be and you know it.
 [Edited 2/21/10 12:31pm] | |
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sweething said: LittleSmedley said: no-one alive today passed those laws u'll always have racists, of every race. its life. Its not a white thing Maybe i have a different perspective, im in london which is multi cultural for the most part, happily. The make-up of my office is about 40% white, 20% afro caribbean, 10% african, and the rest a mixture (maori, hungarian, white south africans, one mixed race south african, sikhs, etc). We all get the fuck on. How many members of Parliament are not European, White Anglo? I'm curious? I don't know the exact figures, but I hear it's representative. Not saying you're going in this direction but it's useles to compare UK with US. It doesn't have the same black/white divide... | |
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sweething said: pald1 said: Not sure you've been reading this thread... Well, of course I've read the entire thread, that's in part what my comments are based on...Prince is better than most white or black, still. And, he's better in spite of the challenges and criticisms he faced. Just because everyone doesn't love every song doesn't mean he's less than or not as good as he used to be...in many ways he's better than he used to be and you know it.
[Edited 2/21/10 12:31pm] Don't assume you know what I know | |
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pald1 said: Working through all this pseudo-intellectual verbiage has led me to one conclusion - something that we can all agree on - that is, Prince 'aint as good as he used to be. Voila.
This is indeed correct....And I don't think anyone that's thinking rationally would say otherwise..But what I find interesting is neither Springsteen or Dylan or Neil Young, ect ect aint as good as they used to be....And yet, we don't hold it against them like some folks do Stevie Wonder, Prince and "others".....If that's pseudo-intellectual verbiage than hey, call me Freud... As for the Prince is better than this person or that person, that's not the angle my initial post took...So let's not throw everyone's views in the same box... [Edited 2/21/10 12:51pm] | |
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pald1 said: sweething said: How many members of Parliament are not European, White Anglo? I'm curious? I don't know the exact figures, but I hear it's representative. Not saying you're going in this direction but it's useles to compare UK with US. It doesn't have the same black/white divide... I was genuinely curious, that's all no comparison. | |
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LittleSmedley said: Graycap23 said: Not easy 2 forget..... no-one alive today passed those laws u'll always have racists, of every race. its life. Its not a white thing Maybe i have a different perspective, im in london which is multi cultural for the most part, happily. The make-up of my office is about 40% white, 20% afro caribbean, 10% african, and the rest a mixture (maori, hungarian, white south africans, one mixed race south african, sikhs, etc). We all get the fuck on. People whose lives were affected by those laws are still alive today and lived through the laws, until the civil rights act was signed in 1964, so what affected their lives at that time, should not be dismissed so disrespectfully. Many have family members lynched/murdered because of those laws. Here's some info on some of those laws: http://www.jimcrowhistory...ating2.htm [Edited 2/21/10 12:56pm] | |
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2elijah said: LittleSmedley said: no-one alive today passed those laws u'll always have racists, of every race. its life. Its not a white thing Maybe i have a different perspective, im in london which is multi cultural for the most part, happily. The make-up of my office is about 40% white, 20% afro caribbean, 10% african, and the rest a mixture (maori, hungarian, white south africans, one mixed race south african, sikhs, etc). We all get the fuck on. People whose lives were affected by those laws are still alive today and lived through the laws, until the civil rights act was signed in 1964, so what affected their lives at that time, should not be dismissed so disrespectfully. Many have family members lynched/murdered because of those laws. Let's stay on topic guys....Don't want the MODS to lock up this thread....Peace... | |
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