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Reply #30 posted 02/20/10 2:04pm

Graycap23

Nice.
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Reply #31 posted 02/20/10 2:09pm

pald1

jdcxc said:

Excellent essay. Most of the music journalists who critique are coming from the same white, middle/upper class, priviledged, eurocentric background. The radio owners/programmers, record company executives and media conglomerate powers come from the same class. If the complexion of the standard bearers and powers-that-be changed, so would the anaylsis of the art form.

And while we're on the subject, don't you hate the term "classic rock" for it's connotations. Compositional music based around the drum or complex rhythmns never get the same respect as the simple rock n roll backbeat (which was also developed by black music forms)- Unless of course, they happen to be Paul Simon, Sting, David Byrne (then it's praised as the intellectual use of "tribal" culture).

Prince confounds them all because there is no denying his massive talent. He can kill em at what they do best while at the same time creating his own genre. Believe me, Bruce, Neil Young, Bono...know they can't get up on the stage with the man.

Most musicians acknowledge the greatness of P, but he won't truly be appreciated by critics until it's all over.


Passionate but unoriginal and simplistic. Music journalists and radio programmers = white and privledged standard bearers is just absurd. Do you have any evidence for this or does it just sound good? And, by the way, much of Prince's 1999 era stuff is considered "classic rock."

The Paul Simon and Sting argument was probably right in the late 80's. Why do people always bring these artists up? You forgot Peter Gabriel too. None of them make records anymore, well perhaps one a decade but that's it.

..plus the old "who's better live" nugget. And the endless trotting out of the same names...Bono, Neil Young, Springsteen. In any event, you might wanna check U2's continued arena status because there's a whole bunch of people who disagree with you.

Believe it or not, I'm with Prince but feel I have to rise up against irrational fanatacism.
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Reply #32 posted 02/20/10 2:11pm

murph

jdcxc said:

Excellent essay. Most of the music journalists who critique are coming from the same white, middle/upper class, priviledged, eurocentric background. The radio owners/programmers, record company executives and media conglomerate powers come from the same class. If the complexion of the standard bearers and powers-that-be changed, so would the anaylsis of the art form.

And while we're on the subject, don't you hate the term "classic rock" for it's connotations. Compositional music based around the drum or complex rhythmns never get the same respect as the simple rock n roll backbeat (which was also developed by black music forms)- Unless of course, they happen to be Paul Simon, Sting, David Byrne (then it's praised as the intellectual use of "tribal" culture).

Prince confounds them all because there is no denying his massive talent. He can kill em at what they do best while at the same time creating his own genre. Believe me, Bruce, Neil Young, Bono...know they can't get up on the stage with the man.

Most musicians acknowledge the greatness of P, but he won't truly be appreciated by critics until it's all over.



I see you vision....Great point on the whole classic rock point...

But i didn't bring up those other great acts to push up Prince's prestige...Prince doesn't need the help on that front....

My whole point was 1) We expect more from African-American artists being that for decades it's been viewed that music comes "naturally" to us...and at times simply as an "entertainer"... 2) Fans of the great likes of Bruce Springsteen, Neil Young, Paul Mac, ect, ect have reasonable expectations of these artists when they are past their prime...Fans of Stevie Wonder and Prince are for the most part diehard, but can be very unreasonable....In fact, sometimes they are downright unrealistic...
[Edited 2/20/10 14:15pm]
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Reply #33 posted 02/20/10 2:12pm

murph

pald1 said:

jdcxc said:

Excellent essay. Most of the music journalists who critique are coming from the same white, middle/upper class, priviledged, eurocentric background. The radio owners/programmers, record company executives and media conglomerate powers come from the same class. If the complexion of the standard bearers and powers-that-be changed, so would the anaylsis of the art form.

And while we're on the subject, don't you hate the term "classic rock" for it's connotations. Compositional music based around the drum or complex rhythmns never get the same respect as the simple rock n roll backbeat (which was also developed by black music forms)- Unless of course, they happen to be Paul Simon, Sting, David Byrne (then it's praised as the intellectual use of "tribal" culture).

Prince confounds them all because there is no denying his massive talent. He can kill em at what they do best while at the same time creating his own genre. Believe me, Bruce, Neil Young, Bono...know they can't get up on the stage with the man.

Most musicians acknowledge the greatness of P, but he won't truly be appreciated by critics until it's all over.


Passionate but unoriginal and simplistic. Music journalists and radio programmers = white and privledged standard bearers is just absurd. Do you have any evidence for this or does it just sound good? And, by the way, much of Prince's 1999 era stuff is considered "classic rock."

The Paul Simon and Sting argument was probably right in the late 80's. Why do people always bring these artists up? You forgot Peter Gabriel too. None of them make records anymore, well perhaps one a decade but that's it.

..plus the old "who's better live" nugget. And the endless trotting out of the same names...Bono, Neil Young, Springsteen. In any event, you might wanna check U2's continued arena status because there's a whole bunch of people who disagree with you.

Believe it or not, I'm with Prince but feel I have to rise up against irrational fanatacism.


If only it was that simple....
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Reply #34 posted 02/20/10 2:13pm

XxAxX

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okay. well, i came in here expecting something more like this. guess i don't really know WHO is more disapppointed in what right now. not being critical, you see, i'm just saying :



murph said:

Reading the recent rash of "Prince Has Lost It" threads got me thinking about the exceptional expectations placed on some music artists...After doing a little research I've come to a conclusion:

I believe we are dealing with the "Super Negro Theory"....

After having a long conversation with some Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, Joni Mitchell, and Bruce Springsteen fans (on various occasions), it's jarringly obvious that there are different standards placed on certain acts across racial lines...But before some of you start accusing me of playing some antiquated race card, hear me out...

This is not a simplistic case of black artists being judged unfairly when it comes to their white counterparts....If you ask me if Justin Timberlake deserves more acclaim, respect, and credit for his art than say an Usher, I would give a resounding YES...Because after all, as annoying as Timberlake can be, he actually proved himself given that he writes, produces, and at times plays on his own material (which is much more nuanced than Usher's work) and gives a more polished and complete live show when Usher still relies heavily on songwriters and producers to make him relevant and keep up with the Tre Songz of the world....

BUT, here's the RUB...THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND WHEN IT COMES TO EXPECTATIONS OF BLACK ARTISTS

Either we are expected to be "entertainers" who rely heavily on the machine or we are expected to be THE SUPER NEGRO...And the crazy part is, we are ALL (black, white, asian, latino ect, ect...) to blame...

So what is the SUPER NEGRO you ask? It's the self-contained artist who is deemed to have otherworldly musical powers...People don't view their art as coming from some intellectual, witty world view (I.E. Bob Dylan or Bowie).....They look at the SUPER NEGRO as being somehow mystical...a talent whose' art cannot be explained without hyperbole...Talent that comes naturally and not from good ol fashioned skill and hard work..

Through the years, there have been many notable SUPER NEGROS: Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, James Brown, Sun-Ra, Bob Marley, Stevie Wonder, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, Aretha Franklin, Michael Jackson, Prince, Rakim....These artists are looked at beyond being "good" musicians or vocalists/performers...In some cases the super negro has to live up to the hype of CHANGING the course of their respective musical genre, not just producing a good song...They can't just create a song to be enjoyed by the masses...They have to write, produce, arrange, play on, and sing on the material in order to be taken seriously as an artist...They can't be Madonna...

So how does the SUPER NEGRO THEORY fit into the recent Prince-Is-Finished threads?...

Just look at the way their EXCEPTIONAL white peers are treated...I recall when Stevie Wonder released Hotter Than July some critics complained that it was not as ambitious as Songs In The Key of Life...They balked at the nerve of Stevie Wonder just releasing an "R&B" album that didn't push the boundaries of music...How dare he!!!...They deemed it a "good' album, and that's as far as they would go.....Now let's flip to when Bruce Springsteen releases Born In The USA...There was no mention of the album being less artistic than Nebraska...In fact critics lauded Bruce for being able to expand his musical base and reach out to the masses with his dignity intact...You gotta love it, huh?

But the Super Negro Theory goes into overdrive once an artist gets past their prime...and here is where Prince fits in....

I will be the first to say that there have been lackluster and suck ass Prince albums (The Symbol album, Chaos & Disorder, New Power Soul, some of Musicology...ect...)...I have not always been happy with the man's work...But my expectations of him have always been reasonable...It's the same reasonable expectations that Bruce Springsteen fans have on the Boss...He can make a back-to-basics, roots-heavy album influnced by Woody Guthrie and no one (not his fans) would ever accuse him of leaning lazily on his influences...Neil Young can make a country-based album and his fans will judge it on the bases of it quality, not whether or not it strikes the same introspective chord as Harvest...

Yet, Prince (The Super Negro) has to keep pushing forward...If he's not re-inventing the musical wheel he is deemed as finished...If he makes music that recalls his own prominent influence (James Brown) he is looked at as being a JB cover band...Remember, the Super Negro cannot simply just make music just 'cause...He/she has to be conceptual, original at all times, and recall the levels of their greatest years.....

But the truth is, we are all accomplices here.......Instead of judging Stevie, Sly, Prince and the like on the same curve as their white counterparts we look at them as being more than human...We hold on dear to the whole "written, produced, performed, composed" tag for dear life, instead appreciating the fact that at the end of it all, these acts are just musicians who happened to get their chance to shine...

Prince's music today reminds us all that we get old...We struggle to re-live our prime years...And for some folks, they have come to terms with this, choosing to connect with him on very specific levels (such as his live show, which is still viewed by many to be pretty damn good) and not just the albums...

Others,however, depend on Prince to make GREAT, challenging music to help them cope with the fact that they are no longer in their own prime years...Thay are not the same person they used to be when Prince could do no wrong in the '80s...Prince's current Golden Years state is a brutal reminder that all of our prime years are behind us....This is a painful realization, ya'll....

In short, Prince fans who find the man unbearable should do their peace of mind a favor and just wait until he passes away and dies.....He's never going to give you what u want at this point...Or, you can pick and choose what you still dig about the man...Or you can go the route of a Bruce Springsteen fan and just enjoy the old man for what he is in 2010 and be thankful that you have had a chance to witness him when he was all that you ever wanted him to be...

Life is more easier that way, right?
[Edited 2/20/10 12:04pm]
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Reply #35 posted 02/20/10 2:15pm

pald1

murph said:

pald1 said:



Passionate but unoriginal and simplistic. Music journalists and radio programmers = white and privledged standard bearers is just absurd. Do you have any evidence for this or does it just sound good? And, by the way, much of Prince's 1999 era stuff is considered "classic rock."

The Paul Simon and Sting argument was probably right in the late 80's. Why do people always bring these artists up? You forgot Peter Gabriel too. None of them make records anymore, well perhaps one a decade but that's it.

..plus the old "who's better live" nugget. And the endless trotting out of the same names...Bono, Neil Young, Springsteen. In any event, you might wanna check U2's continued arena status because there's a whole bunch of people who disagree with you.

Believe it or not, I'm with Prince but feel I have to rise up against irrational fanatacism.


If only it was that simple....


It is
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Reply #36 posted 02/20/10 2:16pm

Graycap23

Interesting take Murph that I have with people who understand what it takes 2 do what Prince does.

I'm a firm believer that Prince will not be fully understood 4 his COMPLETE talents and body of work until many years after his death. The shear volume of his work is completely unknown except 2 his hard core fans. Once people digest that, trying 2 understand the complexities of his many talents, one by one will take more time than most can take.

It takes effort 2 undertand true talent and in this instant society, EFFORT is sorely lacking.....so Prince will continue 2 be under appreciated.
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Reply #37 posted 02/20/10 2:16pm

murph

XxAxX said:

okay. well, i came in here expecting something more like this. guess i don't really know WHO is more disapppointed in what right now. not being critical, you see, i'm just saying :






Say what's on your mind.....Ya know?
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Reply #38 posted 02/20/10 2:23pm

murph

pald1 said:

murph said:



If only it was that simple....


It is



It is at times...But in this case, it's not.....Not everyone is a FAM clutching on to Prince's balls like their lives depend on it...And not everyone is a ex-fan who simply hates every new direction that Prince goes in because it doesn't fit their favorite Prince era and has turned into a troll...

Some folks live in the middle ground....It would be too convenient for you to peg everyone who views the constant bitching as tiring as a FAM...If you've read any of my past post, you can see that I'm not going that route...I'm just a reasonable person who understands that Prince doesn't walk on water...
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Reply #39 posted 02/20/10 2:26pm

skoolteecher

lol lol lol

I'm sorry, the words Prince and Super Negro in the same room?!!!

When did this happen?

Now, maybe The DeNegrification and the Fall of Prince, okay, but Super Negro...

Just gets me to thinkin' about a big old N on his chest wit' a cape.

Sorry...

lol
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Reply #40 posted 02/20/10 2:27pm

murph

skoolteecher said:

lol lol lol

I'm sorry, the words Prince and Super Negro in the same room?!!!

When did this happen?

Now, maybe The DeNegrification and the Fall of Prince, okay, but Super Negro...

Just gets me to thinkin' about a big old N on his chest wit' a cape.

Sorry...

lol



Look up in the sky...it's a bird, it's a plane...No!...It's Super Negro!!!!
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Reply #41 posted 02/20/10 2:32pm

toejam

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So the argument is that we expect more from Prince because he's black? Maybe. There are some good points raised. But I think Prince himself is also partly to blame for this 'over-expectation' by continuing to play the 'mythology' game - ie. not doing interviews, talking in riddles, and generally carrying on with a 'holier than thou' attitude. There's always been a wall between himself and his fanbase. Heck, there's even been a wall between himself and his bandmembers a lot of the time as well. He's not the kind of cat who after a show will be happy to stand beside you and have his picture taken. I'm not saying he should do these things, but I do think that it contributes to his 'other-worldly' persona.

When it comes down to it, Prince is a girly-lookin' light-skinned black man bought up in the black suburbs of the whitest city in America during a post-Martin Luthur King, post-'Summer of Love' environment. I'd say it's perfectly normal for him to feel 'other-worldly'. And if you're going to act 'other-worldly' (whether it's natural for him, or an act, or a bit of both), you're going to be treated 'other-worldly' by your fans. Karma y'all lol.
[Edited 2/20/10 15:00pm]
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Reply #42 posted 02/20/10 2:34pm

jdcxc

pald1 said:

murph said:



If only it was that simple....


It is


Those legendary artists were brought up because the essay was examining the unfair expectations of Prince in comparison with similiar statured artists. Prince is not treated with the same respect or appreciation among the industry elite. I don't read the same attacks for their spotty late season creativity. Do you see the same reverence and industry respect for an artist like George Clinton. He's about the same age as Neil Young and Bowie. Where is his PBS masters series or Elvis Costello Sundance series?

And if you think that the last twenty years have resulted in substanial changes in the diversity of music journalism and business, you need to explore the internet a little more.
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Reply #43 posted 02/20/10 2:47pm

murph

jdcxc said:

pald1 said:



It is


Those legendary artists were brought up because the essay was examining the unfair expectations of Prince in comparison with similiar statured artists. Prince is not treated with the same respect or appreciation among the industry elite. I don't read the same attacks for their spotty late season creativity. Do you see the same reverence and industry respect for an artist like George Clinton. He's about the same age as Neil Young and Bowie. Where is his PBS masters series or Elvis Costello Sundance series?

And if you think that the last twenty years have resulted in substanial changes in the diversity of music journalism and business, you need to explore the internet a little more.



Out the ball park....
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Reply #44 posted 02/20/10 3:47pm

2elijah

toejam said:

So the argument is that we expect more from Prince because he's black? Maybe. There are some good points raised. But I think Prince himself is also partly to blame for this 'over-expectation' by continuing to play the 'mythology' game - ie. not doing interviews, talking in riddles, and generally carrying on with a 'holier than thou' attitude. There's always been a wall between himself and his fanbase. Heck, there's even been a wall between himself and his bandmembers a lot of the time as well. He's not the kind of cat who after a show will be happy to stand beside you and have his picture taken. I'm not saying he should do these things, but I do think that it contributes to his 'other-worldly' persona.

When it comes down to it, Prince is a girly-lookin' light-skinned black man bought up in the black suburbs of the whitest city in America during a post-Martin Luthur King, post-'Summer of Love' environment. I'd say it's perfectly normal for him to feel 'other-worldly'. And if you're going to act 'other-worldly' (whether it's natural for him, or an act, or a bit of both), you're going to be treated 'other-worldly' by your fans. Karma y'all lol.
[Edited 2/20/10 15:00pm]



Karma has nothing to do with it nor does growing up in an all black or white suburb, has anything to do with Prince being a "worldly or international artist". The music an artist creates, and how far it takes him/her depends on the type of music that's created by the artist(s), and the fans that connect/admire/appreciate it/support that music. His creative skills in music apparently was already a gift he gained, from members of his family, i.e., his parents, and he obviously managed to take that gift, maybe beyond his own expectations, and was successful in reaching across racial lines, that's what made him worldly. It has nothing to with the fact that he grew up in the suburbs of America. Take James Brown for example, who did not grow up in the suburbs, but managed to be a worldly artist, and reached across racial lines, with many fans all over the world.

Another thing, according to many sources, Prince was born in 1958, so he was born in the heart of the MLK era and lived through part of the early 60s through 1968, until MLK was murdered. There is no way he did not feel the vibes or the hurt hurt/pain from family members/friends living around him at that time, especially in one of the "whitest cities in the world" you speak of, as a young child, during the MLK era, and not long before MLK was assassinated. If you had listened to some of the interviews his sister Tyka did, where the links to those interviews were posted here in the past, she pretty much explained their childhood growing up in Minnesota. Just my two cents.
[Edited 2/20/10 15:57pm]
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Reply #45 posted 02/20/10 4:05pm

Tame

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I enjoyed reading your post. I'm not sure, whether or not to agree with your theory because so many musicians have had their own career's adventure. I personally don't know what anybody, "be it a producer, or a fan," expects from an artist. It could very well be, that Life in general, and the game players in it, expect somebody to always become more successful than the "Greats," we have known.
When U are as multi-faceted as Prince is...It's likely that U would look to him and expect something from him, because Prince is one of the only choices to be able to excel in the well-rounded music field. cool
"The Lion Sleeps Tonight...
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Reply #46 posted 02/20/10 4:10pm

toejam

avatar

2elijah said:

toejam said:

So the argument is that we expect more from Prince because he's black? Maybe. There are some good points raised. But I think Prince himself is also partly to blame for this 'over-expectation' by continuing to play the 'mythology' game - ie. not doing interviews, talking in riddles, and generally carrying on with a 'holier than thou' attitude. There's always been a wall between himself and his fanbase. Heck, there's even been a wall between himself and his bandmembers a lot of the time as well. He's not the kind of cat who after a show will be happy to stand beside you and have his picture taken. I'm not saying he should do these things, but I do think that it contributes to his 'other-worldly' persona.

When it comes down to it, Prince is a girly-lookin' light-skinned black man bought up in the black suburbs of the whitest city in America during a post-Martin Luthur King, post-'Summer of Love' environment. I'd say it's perfectly normal for him to feel 'other-worldly'. And if you're going to act 'other-worldly' (whether it's natural for him, or an act, or a bit of both), you're going to be treated 'other-worldly' by your fans. Karma y'all lol.



Karma has nothing to do with it nor does growing up in an all black or white suburb, has anything to do with Prince being a "worldly or international artist". The music an artist creates, and how far it takes him/her depends on the type of music that's created by the artist(s), and the fans that connect/admire/appreciate it/support that music. His creative skills in music apparently was already a gift he gained, from members of his family, i.e., his parents, and he obviously managed to take that gift, maybe beyond his own expectations, and was successful in reaching across racial lines, that's what made him worldly. It has nothing to with the fact that he grew up in the suburbs of America. Take James Brown for example, who did not grow up in the suburbs, but managed to be a worldly artist, and reached across racial lines, with many fans all over the world.

Another thing, according to many sources, Prince was born in 1958, so he was born in the heart of the MLK era and lived through part of the early 60s through 1968, until MLK was murdered. There is no way he did not feel the vibes or the hurt hurt/pain from family members/friends living around him at that time, especially in one of the "whitest cities in the world" you speak of, as a young child, during the MLK era, and not long before MLK was assassinated. If you had listened to some of the interviews his sister Tyka did, where the links to those interviews were posted here in the past, she pretty much explained their childhood growing up in Minnesota. Just my two cents.
[Edited 2/20/10 15:57pm]


I think you're missing point. Whether or not he grew up in the suburbs and JB didn't is irrelevant. My point was simply that he was brought up in a time and place where his own look and heritage made him feel "different". But not different in a bad way, in a "I'm gonna kick some ass" way - ie. his 'other-worldly' confidence. Couple that with his natural talent and it's quite obvious to see why he became such a superstar.

But I stick to my original argument. If you're going to parade around talking in riddles, quoting scripture, keeping a distance from your fans, yet always presenting yourself as 'other-worldly' then that is what the public is going to expect from you. Anything that doesn't live up to that hype (and it's always going to be highly subjective as to what does and doesn't) will be viewed as a dissapointment - hence the polarising reviews and attitudes towards his work.
[Edited 2/20/10 16:12pm]
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Reply #47 posted 02/20/10 4:12pm

Se7en

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THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND WHEN IT COMES TO EXPECTATIONS OF BLACK ARTISTS


This line here is really ridiculous if you really think about it.

Who here buys a CD of their favorite artist - ANY artist - and have only "mediocre" expectations? We want our artists to constantly deliver top-notch goods, regardless of genre or skin color.

If any other artist delivered album after album of average or below-average work, how long would you stay a fan of them?
[Edited 2/20/10 16:13pm]
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Reply #48 posted 02/20/10 4:26pm

GustavoRibas

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murph said:


In short, Prince fans who find the man unbearable should do their peace of mind a favor and just wait until he passes away and dies.....He's never going to give you what u want at this point...Or, you can pick and choose what you still dig about the man...Or you can go the route of a Bruce Springsteen fan and just enjoy the old man for what he is in 2010 and be thankful that you have had a chance to witness him when he was all that you ever wanted him to be...

Life is more easier that way, right?




- Agree. I dont expect Prince to be a visionary genius now, but I admit I dont like when he does tribute-only stuff (to himself or to James Brown and the likes, like ´MPLSound´ or that song he performed on TV only lately - forgot the name). On the other hand, I love albums like ´Lotus Flow3r´ that are very introspective and we notice Prince taking special care with the production and arrangements. Well, I am glad I can still listen to his music. Even his ´not so great´ stuff (IMO, course) is still better than most of the music released.
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Reply #49 posted 02/20/10 4:27pm

NONSENSE

Black musicians have always been held to different standards. Afterall, Black musicians have been pretty innovative. Rap, Blues, Jazz, and even Rock & Roll were created & inspired mostly by black folks.

American society often holds blacks to different standard than whites. It's not really a "super negro theory." It just reality. What's really sad is how often black americans & black musicians are often taken advantage of. And how often they never get the credit or money they deserve. cool
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Reply #50 posted 02/20/10 4:36pm

StonedImmacula
te

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Prince is held to a higher standard because that's what HE wanted...he trained us to hold him to this higher standard, first major instance being the release of ATWIAD. I won't go to deep into it but we all have heard the story of how he wanted to challenge his audience.

There was NO ONE on Prince's level in the 80s...then WEST COAST hip hop exploded and everything became hardcore...Nirvana came along a few years later and poof...androgeny is dead. (Yes I know its come back)

Prince became a shadow of his former self, following the new trends rather than staying true to himself.

And while I have continued to support him and purchase every album, I will continue to hold him to this higher standard, hoping foolishly that he will surprise me again.

Even though I sometimes criticize the man, I will always sing his praises.

LONG LIVE THE PRINCE!

No, there is no middle ground when it comes to Prince...and that's the way I want it.
blunt music She has robes and she has monkeys, lazy diamond studded flunkies.... music blunt
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Reply #51 posted 02/20/10 4:50pm

murph

Se7en said:

THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND WHEN IT COMES TO EXPECTATIONS OF BLACK ARTISTS


This line here is really ridiculous if you really think about it.

Who here buys a CD of their favorite artist - ANY artist - and have only "mediocre" expectations? We want our artists to constantly deliver top-notch goods, regardless of genre or skin color.

If any other artist delivered album after album of average or below-average work, how long would you stay a fan of them?
[Edited 2/20/10 16:13pm]


It's quite simple..Historically, African-American music artists fit into two boxes...The entertainer and the Super Negro....

We are viewed in extremes...Either we have to be Bobby Brown or we have to be Stevie Wonder...That's the expectation...We can't make music for the sake of making music...We can't look back at our musical past and utilize it because contemporary R&B is viewed as cutting-edge, looking forward; always on to the next...

The question folks must ask themselves is why isn't Bruce, Dylan, Bowie, Neil, and the like put under the same scrutiny as their black counterparts by critics and fans?...Again, it's not just as simple as black vs. white...Because we are all guilty of subconsciously expecting way too much or too little from African-American artists....We can't just can't take the music for what it is and then make a judgement without all the bullshit...

I would love to get to a point where acts like Stevie and Prince can release an album without fans on both sides either saying it's a "return to form' or that it's the work of a man "who should just give it up...".....It would be great just for those artists to just be able to release their music as easy as Bruce Springsteen, without all the ridiculous expectations....
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Reply #52 posted 02/20/10 4:52pm

xlr8r

avatar

80rn7rue said:

Lol long ..... have you ever seen a thing called a book...

It amazes me the internet is made of words and people refuse to read anything more than 3 lines.

Try it some time you might like it.

As for the origonal poster , it's a well thought out theory, but I can't say I totaly agree, I think the main problem is people want that feeling and emotion they felt when they where of a different age and lifestyle, and the particular album they hold next to that emotion is always what they want from the next release. Due to there life being in a different place now they are disapointed when they do not feel that relived experiance everytime even though it is an unreasonable expectation.
[Edited 2/20/10 12:15pm]


I think its part bilogical in that at the years up to 18-20 ones brain is still growing and that those things you experience durng those optimal years ar what really sticks with you. Sort of like how certain scenes/smells can immediately take you back to a certain place and time.
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Reply #53 posted 02/20/10 5:06pm

2elijah

toejam said:

2elijah said:




Karma has nothing to do with it nor does growing up in an all black or white suburb, has anything to do with Prince being a "worldly or international artist". The music an artist creates, and how far it takes him/her depends on the type of music that's created by the artist(s), and the fans that connect/admire/appreciate it/support that music. His creative skills in music apparently was already a gift he gained, from members of his family, i.e., his parents, and he obviously managed to take that gift, maybe beyond his own expectations, and was successful in reaching across racial lines, that's what made him worldly. It has nothing to with the fact that he grew up in the suburbs of America. Take James Brown for example, who did not grow up in the suburbs, but managed to be a worldly artist, and reached across racial lines, with many fans all over the world.

Another thing, according to many sources, Prince was born in 1958, so he was born in the heart of the MLK era and lived through part of the early 60s through 1968, until MLK was murdered. There is no way he did not feel the vibes or the hurt hurt/pain from family members/friends living around him at that time, especially in one of the "whitest cities in the world" you speak of, as a young child, during the MLK era, and not long before MLK was assassinated. If you had listened to some of the interviews his sister Tyka did, where the links to those interviews were posted here in the past, she pretty much explained their childhood growing up in Minnesota. Just my two cents.
[Edited 2/20/10 15:57pm]


I think you're missing point. Whether or not he grew up in the suburbs and JB didn't is irrelevant. My point was simply that he was brought up in a time and place where his own look and heritage made him feel "different". But not different in a bad way, in a "I'm gonna kick some ass" way - ie. his 'other-worldly' confidence. Couple that with his natural talent and it's quite obvious to see why he became such a superstar.

But I stick to my original argument. If you're going to parade around talking in riddles, quoting scripture, keeping a distance from your fans, yet always presenting yourself as 'other-worldly' then that is what the public is going to expect from you. Anything that doesn't live up to that hype (and it's always going to be highly subjective as to what does and doesn't) will be viewed as a dissapointment - hence the polarising reviews and attitudes towards his work.
[Edited 2/20/10 16:12pm]



Didn't miss the point at all. He is a Black man of a lighter shade, where existed many other brothas with his same look and heritage, that I'm sure experienced racial prejudices, living in mostly, white areas and small towns, just like Prince did back then. Sort of reminds me of the "pretty boy" era of the 1970s, and light-skinned dudes with big fros knew they were sought after by many women.

But getting back to Prince's gift/and creative skills in music, in my opinion, that jump started from his parents. His creativity/risks with his music, the ability and skill to play more than 17 instruments, the boldness of the persona he created for himself onstage, leaving viewers/audiences questionable about his race, sexuality, that kept fans focused on him, while he seduced them with his music, helped him to become a "worldly/international" artist, who went beyond what was expected from him as a black artist in the industry, as well as many within the public, and the mystery that surrounded him on and offstage, as a musician/performer/artist. While other black artists were basically putting out the same types of music and too often being labeled in one category and not respected in others, Prince was seducing the world with his music.

He had the skill to know how to draw in his fans, and genius at keeping a mystique about him, which kept fans interested, seeking to know more about him. Not to mention, his ability to not allow anyone in the industry to put labels on the type of music he could create or limit his music to one category.

He basically sent the message to the music industry and music lovers all over the world, that there was no limits to the type of music an artist can create, based on how light/dark the shade of their skin is or what race they are from. He succeeded in proving that he is musician/artist based on his ability to create music. Carry on!
[Edited 2/21/10 10:39am]
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Reply #54 posted 02/20/10 5:36pm

laurarichardso
n

thedance said:

Lol before I leave this thread: imo Paul MacCartney was an exceptional brilliant songwriter in The Beatles, better than Prince.

Prince was an excellent songwriter in 1978 to 1995. But talking about songwriting Prince hasn't created half as many classics as Paul MacCartney.

Post the Beatles Paul hasn't delivered anything worthy (not to my knowledge) - like he did in The Beatles, just like Prince post Warner Bros.: Prince hasn't delivered any album truly great since 1995..... sure there are great Prince songs here and there, but not great albums...

this is imo. wink razz

-----
Good lord the entire second disc of Emancipation kicks ass. P is a good writer and he does not get the credit he deserves for the exact reasons that Murph points. RnB artist never get a fucking break and for the record I think Smokey Robinson was a better song writer than Paul McCarthy. If you listen to all of the other shitty pop music in the 60 Paul and John just wrote songs that were not as bad as the rest of the crap that was out in the pop world.
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Reply #55 posted 02/20/10 5:38pm

toejam

avatar

^^No one's denying his talent, or all the great things he's done to break down barriers in the music industry. The argument is about why the fans and the public expect more from him than they do most other artists of his generation. My original argument still stands: that the mystique he continues to generate plays a part in encouraging listeners to scrutinize his work more than your average superstar.
[Edited 2/20/10 17:39pm]
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #56 posted 02/20/10 5:58pm

pald1

jdcxc said:

pald1 said:



It is


Those legendary artists were brought up because the essay was examining the unfair expectations of Prince in comparison with similiar statured artists. Prince is not treated with the same respect or appreciation among the industry elite. I don't read the same attacks for their spotty late season creativity. Do you see the same reverence and industry respect for an artist like George Clinton. He's about the same age as Neil Young and Bowie. Where is his PBS masters series or Elvis Costello Sundance series?

And if you think that the last twenty years have resulted in substanial changes in the diversity of music journalism and business, you need to explore the internet a little more.


Not even close to answering any of my points...oh well. Plus, the "you need to explore the internet a little more" is also laughably misguided...like this has ever been a place to guage realistic norms...
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Reply #57 posted 02/20/10 6:01pm

pald1

laurarichardson said:

thedance said:

Lol before I leave this thread: imo Paul MacCartney was an exceptional brilliant songwriter in The Beatles, better than Prince.

Prince was an excellent songwriter in 1978 to 1995. But talking about songwriting Prince hasn't created half as many classics as Paul MacCartney.

Post the Beatles Paul hasn't delivered anything worthy (not to my knowledge) - like he did in The Beatles, just like Prince post Warner Bros.: Prince hasn't delivered any album truly great since 1995..... sure there are great Prince songs here and there, but not great albums...

this is imo. wink razz

-----
Good lord the entire second disc of Emancipation kicks ass. P is a good writer and he does not get the credit he deserves for the exact reasons that Murph points. RnB artist never get a fucking break and for the record I think Smokey Robinson was a better song writer than Paul McCarthy. If you listen to all of the other shitty pop music in the 60 Paul and John just wrote songs that were not as bad as the rest of the crap that was out in the pop world.


You cancelled yourself out once you used the phrase "kicks ass"
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Reply #58 posted 02/20/10 6:08pm

babynoz

It's a thought provoking theory from the standpoint that the dynamic exists to one degree or another in other professions. It hadn't occurred to me with regard to musicians in general or Prince peeps in particular.

And Toejam's observation is not without merit as a factor that feeds into the dynamic in that Prince goes out of his way to maintain a certain mystique. Regardless of how much of it is genuine and how much is contrived, I think it bears consideration as another factor that impacts the mindset of his fanbase.

Not sure which factor weighs more heavily at this point...nevertheless, I appreciate your insights murph and I hope the discussion continues on a thoughtful basis with a minimum of the usual clowning. Good thread.
Prince, in you I found a kindred spirit...Rest In Paradise.
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Reply #59 posted 02/20/10 6:27pm

BlackandRising

thedance said:

thanks, but do you have a shorter version, question

I'm not gonna read this looong post to find the meaning.

sorry wink


Wow, the internet has collectively dumbed us down!! Too Long? LMAO! Should he have placed a tl;dr tag proactively?
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