ALANL said:

V10LETBLUES said:

No they posted here for whatever PR purposes. It is only appropriate to respond here, in the forum where they initially fed their views.

I'm not sure exactly what "P.R." agenda is served by any of this dialogue among a narrow group of fans. Is it too difficult to recognize that even those IN the music business, and certainly professional performers, were all inspired by their own passion and love of the music and those who make it? Why is it so difficult to accept that we're just music lovers too and can get just as intrigued by the issues fans discuss as you - particularly when the lack of facts direct people to the wrong conclusions. I've said it earlier, I am a fact and fairness freak. So when I spot falsehoods and unfairness my blood boils and I run my mouth. Doesn;t sound much different than a lot of other people on here. And so it goes.

Yeah that

LOVEVERY1 said:

ALANL said:

I'm not sure exactly what "P.R." agenda is served by any of this dialogue among a narrow group of fans. Is it too difficult to recognize that even those IN the music business, and certainly professional performers, were all inspired by their own passion and love of the music and those who make it? Why is it so difficult to accept that we're just music lovers too and can get just as intrigued by the issues fans discuss as you - particularly when the lack of facts direct people to the wrong conclusions. I've said it earlier, I am a fact and fairness freak. So when I spot falsehoods and unfairness my blood boils and I run my mouth. Doesn;t sound much different than a lot of other people on here. And so it goes.

Yeah that

Hey, what are you doing over here? Aren't you supposed to be in the concerts forum? (Just kidding. )

squirrelgrease said:

electricberet said:

I just paid $45.97 for the one and only copy of the original Family album on CD that Amazon had in stock. I guess none of that money will go to Prince or fDeluxe or WMG or Paisley Park or any of y'all. Sorry!

Unfortunately, you more than likely purchased a fake/counterfeit copy of the CD at that "low" price. Amazon Marketplace and eBay sellers are unloading tons of those at the same price point.

Damn, i got a japanese print w/ poster. how much would that go for?

sosgemini said:

squirrelgrease said:

Unfortunately, you more than likely purchased a fake/counterfeit copy of the CD at that "low" price. Amazon Marketplace and eBay sellers are unloading tons of those at the same price point.

Damn, i got a japanese print w/ poster. how much would that go for?

More than $46.

2elijah said:

LOVEVERY1 said:

Yeah that

Hey, what are you doing over here? Aren't you supposed to be in the concerts forum? (Just kidding. )

Lol, cute. hugs back 2 you. I just wanted 2 come out & play w/ya'll for a min. then back 2 work I go.

databank said:

djThunderfunk said:

Yes, it was Chronic Freeze! Thank you for that.

He did confirm Prince plays on Hey Man, though. I specifically remember he confirmed Prince played some on Get Satisfied and a few others. I remember Get Satisfied because at the time it was confirmation for me as I just knew I could hear Prince on there.

I think I did screen grabs of the entire post knowing that it would soon be deleted. So far though, I haven't found where I backed it up.

Anybody else remember this?

Yes, I've read this thread very carefully back then and IIRC, Chronic only confirmed what we already knew: Prince DID play on the unreleased versions of Get Satisfied and a few other songs that are on the album, and none these versions made the final cut.

Check for yourself here: http://princevault.com/in..._My_Finger

And here: https://sites.google.com/...raphy/1993

[Edited 5/26/11 9:59am]

I guess I will need to find that text, because I remember things differently.

I'll let you know what I find, regardless.

databank said:

djThunderfunk said:

Yes, it was Chronic Freeze! Thank you for that.

He did confirm Prince plays on Hey Man, though. I specifically remember he confirmed Prince played some on Get Satisfied and a few others. I remember Get Satisfied because at the time it was confirmation for me as I just knew I could hear Prince on there.

I think I did screen grabs of the entire post knowing that it would soon be deleted. So far though, I haven't found where I backed it up.

Anybody else remember this?

Yes, I've read this thread very carefully back then and IIRC, Chronic only confirmed what we already knew: Prince DID play on the unreleased versions of Get Satisfied and a few other songs that are on the album, and none these versions made the final cut.

Check for yourself here: http://princevault.com/in..._My_Finger

And here: https://sites.google.com/...raphy/1993

[Edited 5/26/11 9:59am]

Databank, you mentioned only the alternate take of Satisfied, I have a bunch of outtakes from Hey Man, but no alternate Get Satisfied. Can you tell me what collection I might find it on. Anyway, I read it as P sang on the released track. I see no mention of unreleased version in Chronic's statement. Is there another source for this info?

[Edited 5/26/11 23:28pm]

[Edited 5/26/11 23:56pm]

[Edited 5/26/11 23:58pm]

[Edited 5/27/11 9:02am]

madhouseman said:

djThunderfunk said:

Yes, it was Chronic Freeze! Thank you for that.

He did confirm Prince plays on Hey Man, though. I specifically remember he confirmed Prince played some on Get Satisfied and a few others. I remember Get Satisfied because at the time it was confirmation for me as I just knew I could hear Prince on there.

I think I did screen grabs of the entire post knowing that it would soon be deleted. So far though, I haven't found where I backed it up.

Anybody else remember this?

I vaguely remember this but would love to reread it if you find it.

orgnote me

[Edited 5/27/11 0:03am]

squirrelgrease said:

madhouseman said:

I vaguely remember this but would love to reread it if you find it.

The underwater guitar sound Prince tried to get by suggesting placing an amp (plugged in, mind you) in a tub of water and setting up a mic next to it is probably the best true Prince story in history.

squirrelgrease said:

Can we just drop the nonsense that's been repeated over and over again? Let's show some respect for a special industry guest that can provide specific insight and anecdotal information on the musician(s) we supposedly come here to discuss. Mr. Leeds has always been a straight-shooter, and there's no reason to believe he's changed this tact.

For fuck's sake. He's a Grammy winning archivist who worked with James Brown. James motherfucking Brown.

The bickering is ridiculous, though not unexpected, coming from the usual suspects.

again i say....

Square1entertainment said:

V10LETBLUES said:

Your point is moot with all "why would's" with all the drama. That's exactly what happened regardless of why. Maybe it's just a case of a really bad manager. Whatever it is he tried to do, he fell flat on his face and dragged Alan along with him to share an asphalt sandwitch.

I have been made aware of your personal insults and sent you a private message.

The internet should bring the all facets of the industry - the business, the artists AND the fans closer - but its people like you that will ensure they stay separated. Had the posts been thoughtful and polite as opposed to inflammatory and immature I would have continued to interact publicly ... now I won't.

Thanks to those who have posted intelligently, there's been quite a few of you who have taken that route. To those with serious questions about the band feel free to drop me a message privately. I may take a while to respond - all my clients are working on new albums, TV shows etc so I am busy - but I will definitely come back to you at some stage.

To members of the forum - for the record: If I wanted to do a PR spin I would have done it in August when the album was available for pre-order and via a much larger, worldwide medium than this one. I am sure you would all agree that would make more sense ... I hope that one is cleared up now too.

[Edited 5/26/11 14:48pm]

[Edited 5/26/11 14:56pm]

Thank you for the info and interaction. Please don't let the rudeness of one to reflect on us all. Most here appreciate you taking the time to share with us.

Can't wait for fDeluxe! Come back any time!!

squirrelgrease said:

madhouseman said:

I vaguely remember this but would love to reread it if you find it.

The underwater guitar sound Prince tried to get by suggesting placing an amp (plugged in, mind you) in a tub of water and setting up a mic next to it is probably the best true Prince story in history.

Indeed, I LOVED this one

djThunderfunk said:

databank said:

Yes, I've read this thread very carefully back then and IIRC, Chronic only confirmed what we already knew: Prince DID play on the unreleased versions of Get Satisfied and a few other songs that are on the album, and none these versions made the final cut.

Check for yourself here: http://princevault.com/in..._My_Finger

And here: https://sites.google.com/...raphy/1993

[Edited 5/26/11 9:59am]

Okay, I found where I backed up the thread on my computer. Here's the quote I was talking about:

edited out

I just checked: I got 2 unreleased versions on the "iVault" collection but none on "Work It 2.0" (which, btw, is the best collection of outtakes available, you need this one + "30 Years Of Unreleased Funk" + "Box Of Chocolate" + the 2 recent outtakes "Can I Play With U #2" and "4 Lust" and u've got every outtake circulating in the best quality available). The fact that my 2 unreleased versions aren't on "Work It 2.0" and that they aren't featured in the article about the song on Princevault.com probably indicates that Prince isn't on them, and that -if Chronic Freeze remembers correctly, let's not forget his thread was done almost 20 years after these sessions happened- the versions with Prince aren't circulating. On the other hand, "Work It 2.0" contains several Hey Man... Smell My Finger outtakes/alternate takes, and therefore it's likely that all of them feature Prince.

As for Chronik"s statement IDK, it's not really clear and Chronik says that he thinks the only Prince contribution was The Big Pump, then doesn't clearly say if Prince contributed to the released version of Get Satisfied or just a version. I just listened to the "let's get satisfied" hook on the released version and Prince's voice could possibly be part of the choir, or not, it's very hard to say because many voices are mixed together.

Still, another claim by the Uptown team that Prince's only contribution was The Big Pump is quoted here: http://prince.org/msg/5/160499" target="_blank">http://prince.org/msg/5/160499

So far, I don't consider that Chronic's statement constitutes a proof that Prince contributed the released track but I'd like to hear the opinion of Boris or Madhouseman about it.

[Edited 5/28/11 4:09am]

Square1entertainment said:

V10LETBLUES said:

Your point is moot with all "why would's" with all the drama. That's exactly what happened regardless of why. Maybe it's just a case of a really bad manager. Whatever it is he tried to do, he fell flat on his face and dragged Alan along with him to share an asphalt sandwitch.

I have been made aware of your personal insults and sent you a private message.

The internet should bring the all facets of the industry - the business, the artists AND the fans closer - but its people like you that will ensure they stay separated. Had the posts been thoughtful and polite as opposed to inflammatory and immature I would have continued to interact publicly ... now I won't.

Thanks to those who have posted intelligently, there's been quite a few of you who have taken that route. To those with serious questions about the band feel free to drop me a message privately. I may take a while to respond - all my clients are working on new albums, TV shows etc so I am busy - but I will definitely come back to you at some stage.

To members of the forum - for the record: If I wanted to do a PR spin I would have done it in August when the album was available for pre-order and via a much larger, worldwide medium than this one. I am sure you would all agree that would make more sense ... I hope that one is cleared up now too.

[Edited 5/26/11 14:48pm]

[Edited 5/26/11 14:56pm]

Sorry again about the Trolls here, and thanks again for contributing, some of us really appreciated it.

[Edited 5/27/11 0:20am]

databank said:

I just checked: I got 2 unreleased versions on the "iVault" collection but none on "Work It 2.0" (which, btw, is the best collection of outtakes available, you need this one + "30 Years Of Unreleased Funk" + "Box Of Chocolate" + the 2 recent outtakes "Can I Play With U #2" and "4 Lust" and u've got every outtake circulating in the best quality available). The fact that my 2 unreleased versions aren't on "Work It 2.0" and that they aren't featured in the article about the song on Princevault.com probably indicates that Prince isn't on them, and that -if Chronic Freeze remembers correctly, let's not forget his thread was done almost 20 years after these sessions happened- the versions with Prince aren't circulating. On the other hand, "Work It 2.0" contains several Hey Man... Smell My Finger outtakes/alternate takes, and therefore it's likely that all of them feature Prince.

As for Chronik"s statement IDK, it's not really clear and Chronik says that he thinks the only Prince contribution was The Big Pump, then doesn't clearly say if Prince contributed to the released version of Get Satisfied or just a version. I just listened to the "let's get satisfied" hook on the released version and Prince's voice could possibly be part of the choir, or not, it's very hard to say because many voices are mixed together.

Still, another claim by the Uptown team that Prince's only contribution was The Big Pump is quoted here: http://prince.org/msg/5/160499" target="_blank">http://prince.org/msg/5/160499

So far, I don't consider that Chronic's statement constitutes a proof that Prince contributed the released track but I'd like to hear the opinion of Boris or Madhouseman about it.

First, thanks for checking. I have everything you listed, with the possible exception of iVault. I'll have to check my external to see if I do have it, if not, I'll track it down. I seem to remember debating with myself about getting it for completist sake vs. skipping it as I already had it all (which is evidently, incorrect ).

I took Chronic's statement to mean the only track Prince wrote and provided for the project was Big Pump, but, that he had played on (or, as George has said in interviews, "P'd on") other tracks on the album.

That said, I always thought I could hear Prince throughout Hey Man, specifically on Satisfied, and therefor, may be reading into it.

Although I believe the Uptown team's info is the most accurate available, I do believe it is only the best known info, and not always certain fact. They're just right so much of the time that it is easy for us (well, for me anyway) to consider the info Gospel. It isn't, it's just reallllly close. IMO.

I agree wholeheartedly that Chronic's statements are proof of nothing. He's pretty clear that his memory is not perfect. I would also appreciate expert opinions.

On that note, should I edit/delete Chronic's statements in my post? Just wondering since the original thread was deleted, may not be cool of me to repost?

[Edited 5/27/11 9:04am]

CMIIW but the only tracks iVault contains that ain't on Work It 2.0 are fake outtakes (i.e. with no Prince involvement), so u don't really need it.

As for Chronic's thread, he clearly asked that no one ever reproduces or uses in a book or online any part of what he's said. Part of me says "we should respect his wish", but on the other hand i'm one of these guys who own a whole bunch of bootlegs when I perfectly know Prince doesn't want us to own anything save what he's officially released, and I'm also one of these people who encourage those uncirculating outtakes owners to share what they have with the world, so what can i say?

In the end Chronic went public and perfectly knew his words would be copied/pasted by some (i personally didn't do it) and could re-emerge here and there even if he said he didn't want this to happen, so it's a personnal ethic choice for every one who owns a copy of the thread to quote it or not.

So I can't tell u what to do

And yes, you are right: Uptown cannot know everything, nor can Princevault.com. I myself will soon create threads on this forum and 2 others in order to ask people to proofread my online discography and check its accuracy, because considering the amount of data to handle, it's likely that I've made some mistakes despite my efforts to be accurate.

The available data on Prince's recording sessions is always evolving... & I'd like to know what the "experts" think of Chronic's confusing statements about Get Satisfied. Or maybe Alan has the answer? (If so, please let us know )

djThunderfunk said:

On that note, should I edit/delete Chronic's statements in my post? Just wondering since the original thread was deleted, may not be cool of me to repost?

ChronicFreeze did politely ask that his posts not be reproduced.

I am so upset with all of you, what kind of fan site is this. These people come on here and give one side of a story, and you totally agree with them, with out even hearing Prince side. Then you all criticized anyone who disagrees with you. This is my first time replying on this site, I simply don't understand you. Why is Prince wrong for wanting to use any images he wants of a band he created in the first place, why on earth would he have to get permission from the family to use his songs. Don't you see how crazy that sounds. What kind of fan site is this, I am so ashamed of all of you. And I don't care how many of you attack me for having a different opinion than you.

^^^

It's not about taking sides, none of us is legitimate to take side in this matter, and most of us didn't.

It's about showing respect and being grateful to whoever is involved (or whoever has some first hand information to help us understand the conflict) for coming here and share their side of the story when they could just ignore us.

And even if you chose to take sides, you don't have to be rude. If Prince came here to discuss www.lotusflow3r.com, I'd FIRST be grateful for him to do so and THEN I'd politely express how and why I was so disappointed by the site's content and felt that I shouldn't have paid $77 for it. I certainly wouldn't say things such as "You're a clown and you've ripped me off, this is a shameful scam and you are a crook". It's just about being well educated or not.

Alan for Moderator!

databank said:

As for Chronic's thread, he clearly asked that no one ever reproduces or uses in a book or online any part of what he's said. Part of me says "we should respect his wish", but on the other hand i'm one of these guys who own a whole bunch of bootlegs when I perfectly know Prince doesn't want us to own anything save what he's officially released, and I'm also one of these people who encourage those uncirculating outtakes owners to share what they have with the world, so what can i say?

In the end Chronic went public and perfectly knew his words would be copied/pasted by some (i personally didn't do it) and could re-emerge here and there even if he said he didn't want this to happen, so it's a personnal ethic choice for every one who owns a copy of the thread to quote it or not.

So I can't tell u what to do

In the US, copying and reproducing someone else's work (writing, art, music, etc.) without their permission may be copyright infringment (even if the work is not registered with the Copyright office). It's also disrespectful, especially if he explicitly asked that it not be done.

.

[Edited 5/27/11 5:51am]

rfan said:

I am so upset with all of you, what kind of fan site is this. These people come on here and give one side of a story, and you totally agree with them, with out even hearing Prince's side. Then you all criticized anyone who disagrees with you. This is my first time replying on this site, I simply don't understand you. Why is Prince wrong for wanting to use any images he wants of a band he created in the first place, why on earth would he have to get permission from the family to use his songs. Don't you see how crazy that sounds. What kind of fan site is this, I am so ashamed of all of you. And I don't care how many of you attack me for having a different opinion than you.

First of all,Prince is never going to present "his side" in matters like this.He'll simply have his lawyers send threatening,harassing letters.That's how he operates.

Secondly,you are forgetting that,while Prince wrote and produced the Family's debut album,the group members were still part of the project too.Those are their voices on the record,those are their images,too.These are human beings we're talking about,not robots.

"what kind of fansite is this"

It certainly isn't a place where fans blindly worship their idol and drink purple Kool-Aid all day long.If that's what you're looking for,go elsewhere.

databank said:

^^^

It's not about taking sides, none of us is legitimate to take side in this matter, and most of us didn't.

It's about showing respect and being grateful to whoever is involved (or whoever has some first hand information to help us understand the conflict) for coming here and share their side of the story when they could just ignore us.

And even if you chose to take sides, you don't have to be rude. If Prince came here to discuss www.lotusflow3r.com, I'd FIRST be grateful for him to do so and THEN I'd politely express how and why I was so disappointed by the site's content and felt that I shouldn't have paid $77 for it. I certainly wouldn't say things such as "You're a clown and you've ripped me off, this is a shameful scam and you are a crook". It's just about being well educated or not.

For me this is what is came down to.

Alan used the word "disingenuous" and that is the perfect word for their whole fiasco.

If Prince came in here and and started a passive aggressive thread titled "Statement From Prince regarding Scaming My Fams" What do you think the reaction would be? Everyone throwing rose peddles like some of you mentioned?

It's about how they went about this. Period.

It's about fairness and propriety and Alan and that other dude lacking good judgement as to whether it was a good idea to air their dirty laundry here in the way they did. It was not cool no matter how you tilt you head and try to justify it.

I couldn't help but say something, especially while most of you here just acted like attention starved kids swooning about someone like Alan posting here and noticing them, instead of really reading what was being said. Or the motives. The word indigenous pops up again.

I was about the disingenuous passive aggressive tone from the get go. Respect? Well whey had it until they opened their mouths.

Anyway that's it, I'll also call it a day on this one.

rfan said:

I am so upset with all of you, what kind of fan site is this. These people come on here and give one side of a story, and you totally agree with them, with out even hearing Prince side. Then you all criticized anyone who disagrees with you. This is my first time replying on this site, I simply don't understand you. Why is Prince wrong for wanting to use any images he wants of a band he created in the first place, why on earth would he have to get permission from the family to use his songs. Don't you see how crazy that sounds. What kind of fan site is this, I am so ashamed of all of you. And I don't care how many of you attack me for having a different opinion than you.

READ what people have actually said, not what you IMAGINE they have said.

BTW, writing in bold does not make your opinion more valid.

NouveauDance said:

rfan said:

I am so upset with all of you, what kind of fan site is this. These people come on here and give one side of a story, and you totally agree with them, with out even hearing Prince side. Then you all criticized anyone who disagrees with you. This is my first time replying on this site, I simply don't understand you. Why is Prince wrong for wanting to use any images he wants of a band he created in the first place, why on earth would he have to get permission from the family to use his songs. Don't you see how crazy that sounds. What kind of fan site is this, I am so ashamed of all of you. And I don't care how many of you attack me for having a different opinion than you.

READ what people have actually said, not what you IMAGINE they have said.

BTW, writing in bold does not make your opinion more valid.

I did read what people said, and this was my first time replying to this site so I push the BOLD button by mistake, I have an opinion, just like you do, and I have a right to express it even if it is not yours. I am sorry it is disturbing to me, that when anyone says something bad about prince 98% of this site agrees.

SoulAlive said:

rfan said:

I am so upset with all of you, what kind of fan site is this. These people come on here and give one side of a story, and you totally agree with them, with out even hearing Prince's side. Then you all criticized anyone who disagrees with you. This is my first time replying on this site, I simply don't understand you. Why is Prince wrong for wanting to use any images he wants of a band he created in the first place, why on earth would he have to get permission from the family to use his songs. Don't you see how crazy that sounds. What kind of fan site is this, I am so ashamed of all of you. And I don't care how many of you attack me for having a different opinion than you.

First of all,Prince is never going to present "his side" in matters like this.He'll simply have his lawyers send threatening,harassing letters.That's how he operates.

Secondly,you are forgetting that,while Prince wrote and produced the Family's debut album,the group members were still part of the project too.Those are their voices on the record,those are their images,too.These are human beings we're talking about,not robots.

"what kind of fansite is this"

It certainly isn't a place where fans blindly worship their idol and drink purple Kool-Aid all day long.If that's what you're looking for,go elsewhere.

I am not forgetting about the family, I really don't care about their album or prince involvement

with them that is for them to work out, I am upset about the responce from his fans, that he is always wrong. I don't drink purple kool aid, I just think it is fair to understand there is another

side to the story. I don't blindly follow anybody but GOD.

rfan said:

SoulAlive said:

First of all,Prince is never going to present "his side" in matters like this.He'll simply have his lawyers send threatening,harassing letters.That's how he operates.

Secondly,you are forgetting that,while Prince wrote and produced the Family's debut album,the group members were still part of the project too.Those are their voices on the record,those are their images,too.These are human beings we're talking about,not robots.

"what kind of fansite is this"

It certainly isn't a place where fans blindly worship their idol and drink purple Kool-Aid all day long.If that's what you're looking for,go elsewhere.

I am not forgetting about the family, I really don't care about their album or prince involvement

with them that is for them to work out, I am upset about the responce from his fans, that he is always wrong. I don't drink purple kool aid, I just think it is fair to understand there is another

side to the story. I don't blindly follow anybody but GOD.

I just wanna take this moment and thank you for not using the term "fam". That is all....

rfan said:

I am so upset with all of you, what kind of fan site is this. These people come on here and give one side of a story, and you totally agree with them, with out even hearing Prince side. Then you all criticized anyone who disagrees with you. This is my first time replying on this site, I simply don't understand you. Why is Prince wrong for wanting to use any images he wants of a band he created in the first place, why on earth would he have to get permission from the family to use his songs. Don't you see how crazy that sounds. What kind of fan site is this, I am so ashamed of all of you. And I don't care how many of you attack me for having a different opinion than you.

It's fine to support Prince on a fan site. It's fine to knock Prince on a fan site.

BUT the stuff you are saying has ZERO to do with the issues here.

No one wants to stop him from using images.

He doesn't have to get permission to use songs.

WHO has said ANY of what you are saying?

Can I be ashamed that a fan hops into a thread without a CLUE of what they are talking about? At least have some idea of what the issue is if you are going to tell people they sound crazy they are.

I'm not attacking you for your opinion in case you are wondering. I am asking that you have some idea of what the conversation is before posting.

V10LETBLUES said:

databank said:

^^^

It's not about taking sides, none of us is legitimate to take side in this matter, and most of us didn't.

It's about showing respect and being grateful to whoever is involved (or whoever has some first hand information to help us understand the conflict) for coming here and share their side of the story when they could just ignore us.

And even if you chose to take sides, you don't have to be rude. If Prince came here to discuss www.lotusflow3r.com, I'd FIRST be grateful for him to do so and THEN I'd politely express how and why I was so disappointed by the site's content and felt that I shouldn't have paid $77 for it. I certainly wouldn't say things such as "You're a clown and you've ripped me off, this is a shameful scam and you are a crook". It's just about being well educated or not.

For me this is what is came down to.

Alan used the word "disingenuous" and that is the perfect word for their whole fiasco.

If Prince came in here and and started a passive aggressive thread titled "Statement From Prince regarding Scaming My Fams" What do you think the reaction would be? Everyone throwing rose peddles like some of you mentioned?

It's about how they went about this. Period.

It's about fairness and propriety and Alan and that other dude lacking good judgement as to whether it was a good idea to air their dirty laundry here in the way they did. It was not cool no matter how you tilt you head and try to justify it.

I couldn't help but say something, especially while most of you here just acted like attention starved kids swooning about someone like Alan posting here and noticing them, instead of really reading what was being said. Or the motives. The word indigenous pops up again.

I was about the disingenuous passive aggressive tone from the get go. Respect? Well whey had it until they opened their mouths.

Anyway that's it, I'll also call it a day on this one.

So who did this exactly....???