Mr Leeds. I want to tell U the amout of integrity hold, at least in my eys, in an intolerably shady "bid'ness".

Reasonalbe people seem increasingly difficuly to get a hold of....especially on the internet...and as U now see, on the org.

Whoa! There are some long-ass posts on this thread. By the time I got to the last page, my great-great-great-great-great-grandkids started collecting Social Security checks...

Thanks for the info!! Definitley has been insighful to understand why no release.

I talked to Susannah and St. Paul and I knew something was sketchy about the release in their answers given later.

afro75 said:

Whoa! There are some long-ass posts on this thread. By the time I got to the last page, my great-great-great-great-great-grandkids started collecting Social Security checks...

2elijah said:

electricberet said:

That's funny. The clip didn't show up when I first looked at your post, but I was able to guess what video it was anyway.

As Carrie said, I appreciate that Alan and others who have actual information about what is going on and what has happened in the past take the time to post on here. We have so many debates that boil down to a lack of information and facts.

That's one of my favorite songs from the Beatles. Reading Alan's posts and Neil's kind of reminds me of a broken family trying to work things out, but it's too bad they had to air it in public, instead of keeping it behind the scenes.

[Edited 5/23/11 16:29pm]

Now it will NEVER be rectified/solved.

xlr8r said:

2elijah said:

That's one of my favorite songs from the Beatles. Reading Alan's posts and Neil's kind of reminds me of a broken family trying to work things out, but it's too bad they had to air it in public, instead of keeping it behind the scenes.

[Edited 5/23/11 16:29pm]

Now it will NEVER be rectified/solved.

RIGHT!!

Why on GOD'S green earth would Alan come on the org and disclose that private & confidential information to US?? SMDH!!! I don't care how many of YOU were begging for answers, ALAN keep your professional hat on! OMG!!!

xlr8r said:

2elijah said:

That's one of my favorite songs from the Beatles. Reading Alan's posts and Neil's kind of reminds me of a broken family trying to work things out, but it's too bad they had to air it in public, instead of keeping it behind the scenes.

[Edited 5/23/11 16:29pm]

Now it will NEVER be rectified/solved.

This is nothing compared to what was said in public by the Beatles about each other after their breakup:

...and yet they somehow patched things up.

kgarcia863 said:

xlr8r said:

Now it will NEVER be rectified/solved.

RIGHT!!

Why on GOD'S green earth would Alan come on the org and disclose that private & confidential information to US?? SMDH!!! I don't care how many of YOU were begging for answers, ALAN keep your professional hat on! OMG!!!

He didn't disclose the most important confidential information: the specific terms of the contracts involving The Family and Prince. I think it's great that he's posting here and hope there is more to come. I don't see this leading to more sales for Fdeluxe, but I don't think that is his goal.

xlr8r said:

2elijah said:

That's one of my favorite songs from the Beatles. Reading Alan's posts and Neil's kind of reminds me of a broken family trying to work things out, but it's too bad they had to air it in public, instead of keeping it behind the scenes.

[Edited 5/23/11 16:29pm]

Now it will NEVER be rectified/solved.

Probably not.

[Edited 5/23/11 19:08pm]

laurarichardson said:

Zannaloaf said:

Clearly you have some movie ending type fantasy about how the courts work. Whoever has the most money and time tends to prevail- EVEN if the law is on the side of the other person. Sometimes people get huge settlements- that never get paid. So what is the point of going to court with someone who has money, time and a chip on their shoulder.

Also- if a thousand rumours are flying about something it is not in the LEAST unprofessional to drop in and attempt to clear said rumours.

[Flame snip - luv4u] The bottom line is the Family needs to put up or shut up.

Trust me the manager putting this business matter on this board is unprofessional and if Prince were doing this you and other orger would be the first ones to bitch about it.

He certainly puts his business stuff out there and makes it public when it suits him. Just not through the org, he's got more media connections (and Dr. Funkenberry) and doesn't need it.

Zannaloaf said:

laurarichardson said:

[Flame snip - luv4u] The bottom line is the Family needs to put up or shut up.

Trust me the manager putting this business matter on this board is unprofessional and if Prince were doing this you and other orger would be the first ones to bitch about it.

He certainly puts his business stuff out there and makes it public when it suits him. Just not through the org, he's got more media connections (and Dr. Funkenberry) and doesn't need it.

Prince will release a song vaguely alluding to this if it's bugging him. He already did that, in fact. I wonder if part of the reason why fDeluxe's people are posting here is in the hope that it might get Prince's attention, since he's not returning their phone calls.

Thank you once again, Mr. Leeds for the professional insight and the forthright, yet respectful way in which these often debated topics were answered.

And thank you databank for asking the good questions.

squirrelgrease said:

Thank you once again, Mr. Leeds for the professional insight and the forthright, yet respectful way in which these often debated topics were answered.

And thank you databank for asking the good questions.

^^^ I'll second that... Thank you Mr A. Leeds

Atlantic Records CEO Craig Klamman talks about Prince......

Interesting exerpt from a Rolling Stone magazine Issue #1103 article I stumbled upon from Craig Klamman Co-Chair and CEO of Atlantic Records. He goes on to say:

And even the most independent of artists need professional guidance, he adds "Even Prince- talk about a guy who needs an editor. He's a genius, but if you go through the last albums that he's done on his own and maybe the albums when he was on Warner Bros, and you tell me, if you could only own five which five would you want to own?"

ALANL said:

databank said:

Mr. Leeds if you're still around, thanks a lot for coming here and help us seeing things more clearly. It's deeply appreciated by most of us.

It's fair enough if you're tired of answering here but just in case, allow me to ask you a few questions concerning this affair and the somewhat similar situation with The Time. We have MANY discussions here that lead nowhere because of a lack of FACTS and maybe you could clear this once and for all since you were there back in the days

For a reminder, Neil says that no proper contract was signed with The Family in 1985 and that the band might have some interest in the remasters if they were to happen. We also know that The Time claim that Prince won't let them release their newly recorded reunion album as "The Time".

So my questions are:

1) Did any of the artists Prince ghostwrote, weither they were bands like The Time and The Family or individuals like Sheila, Jill Jones, Carmen Electra, etc. have a proper contract directly with Warner Bros Records, or were all these albums released only through Prince's own contract with WB?

2) It seems that Prince considers any songs he touches as being HIS music, period. Do you think that his only reason to prevent The Time and The Family to use their "old" names is to maintain a complete ownership on all the material they recorded with him, and any future rerelease/remastering of it? Could there be any other reason?

3) You said that the rights to most of Paisley Park's records reverted back to Prince. How is this possible? How come WB didn't retain the rights in the same way they retained the rights to the "Prince" albums?

4) It is known that at the same time he attempted to trademark the name The Family in 2009, Prince went as far as to try (and possibly succeeded) to trademark names such as Mazarati and Good Question, bands he had little (if anything) to do with: for what purpose? Can he legally claim anything about Good Question's album, a record he wasn't involved with at all?

5) In the end there's a huge number of grey areas: collaborations such as He's So Dull and River Run Dry (composed by a bandmember, arranged and recorded by Prince, performed by yet another artist), albums like Pandemonium or Sheila E., which were half-Prince/half-the real artist, the Mavis Staples songs Prince composed but did not record, or even your own brother's Times Squared (basically Prince's music, but Eric co-composed and co-arranged a good part of it). Can Prince claim everything as his and rerelease all these records (at least anything he was musically involved with) without any of the persons involved claiming their share of it? Could the contracts (or lack of contracts) he had with the artists and/or WB back then allow this?

6) Could Prince go as far as trying to reclaim the masters of non-WB songs such as Sugar Walls or Manic Monday, since he kind of did everything on them but the vocals and some overdubs, or is this unthinkable of, by the industry's legal standards?

I know you're not in Prince's mind but as a professional who were there and therefore knows exactly what were the contractual terms of all these artists and projects, I thought you might help us clear this whole mess. My humble opinion is that Prince has plans for his back-catalogue and that this whole The Family/The Time situation is related to these plans. I'd like to know your opinion regarding this and the related questions above.

Many many thanks for your contributions

...

[Edited 5/23/11 10:25am]

All interesting topics and smart questions. Unfortunately, as a former executive of Paisley Park Records there are a lot of aspects of these issues that I respectfully cannot discuss. It should also be noted that a lot of what transpired so many years ago simply isn't locked to my memory. So it would be irresponsible to speculate on the things I don't feel confident about factually. But fairness and fact freak that I am, I'll try to sort thru what I can within those boundaries.

Before the end of 1988, there was no one specifically charged with the day-to-day responsibilities of running Paisley Park Records. Instead, things were variously tended to by whatever management personnel was available and willing. Needless-to-say, a lot of clerical matters fell between the cracks. In January, 1989, Prince suddenly changed his entire management, financial and legal crews. The transitions to the new teams further complicated matters because the newbies had no previous knowledge about the structure of Prince's businesses or the players. It was then that I put together a team to run the label on a steady basis and I became a liason of sorts between the label and Warners in hopes of kindling some increased enthusiasm and support for Paisley projects. I'd like to think that the clerical aspects of running that business also then became more consistent and complete.

At that time, some artists were signed through Warners but those signed after late, 1988, were signed directly to Paisley. The joint venture between Paisley and Warners allowed for the records of those artists signed directly to Paisley or any that may have been signed to Prince's production company, to revert from Warners back to Paisley after a certain amount of time - a not uncommon arrangement in joint ventures. Conversly, Prince was always signed directly to Warner Brothers. At some point there was an agreement made that his records could be released with the Paisley Park logo on them to help boost the visibility and credibility of his label but he was never technically a Paisley Park artist himself. Thus his masters remain the property of Warner Brothers based on all the recording agreements he had with them.

I have no first hand knowledge and don't feel qualified to comment on his situation with Morris day and The Time. Of course their original contract was with Warners, having pre-dated the formation of the Paisley Park label.

A lot is speculated about Prince's motives for what he does and while I may have a personal opinion like anyone else, it's one thing to discuss the results of his (or anyone's actions), but I do believe it's dangerous and unfair to second guess one's motives - simply because none of us really know what's inside someone driving them to do what they do.

I'm not at liberty to discuss the status of any on-going contractual issues but I can say, in general, that unless an artists' original contract with Paisley specifically prohibits reissues, Prince should be in the position to re-issue, re-compile, re-master, just about do anything he wants to do with the material that was recorded for Paisley Park by artists signed directly to that label - in other words, any masters that Paisley Park owns.

As an aside, as someone with a lot of experience dealing with compilations and reissues, I have long believed that a properly packaged compilation of prime Paisley Park material, with a bit of bonus (previously unissued and/or "live" material) would make for a fabulous box set of a couple or three CDs. I assume Prince should be free to issue such a project either independently or with whatever label or distributor he chose to do business with. From a purely mercinary standpoint, it's "found money" for Prince and a boost to his legacy as a writer/producer. But I won't hold my breath. C'est la vie.

As for masters he produced for outside artists and labels, such as those you mention - SUGAR WALLS and MANIC MONDAY: I can only assume that those masters belong to the labels they were produced for, pursuant to the terms of the agreements between those labels and the artists who recorded the songs. It's highly unlikely that as an outside producer for those, and other such projects, Prince would have any authority whatsoever over those recordings and how they are issued.

Trademarking band names is something that a band and their managament should tend to early on. Theoretically, a recording label would want to know that a new band they were signing already could prove ownership of their name. Otherwise a label might invest in a band and risk ending up in an undesireable legal situation. Of course a savvy label that recognizes an artist failed to do so, would want to protect their investment by trying to register it themselves. In the early "mom and Pop" days of rock and roll, labels often owned groups names which eventually accounted for so many different personnels in popular groups like the Temptations, the Coasters and the Drifters. As artists and managers became more sophisticated, they realized the value in owning their own name and these days I would assume it's very uncommon for a label to beat a band to registering their Trademark.

As for the music on Paisley Park Records: obviously Prince rightly owns the copyright to any Prince composition. As for songs written by others that appeared on Paisley albums, in many cases Prince's companies may own or co-own the publishing rights to those songs according to whatever agreements were signed at the time between the composers and the companies.

However, as a general rule of thumb, ANY song that has been previously recorded and copywritten is available for any artist to record, cover, perform or whatever as long as they pay the proper licensing - writers and publishing - to the appropriate parties. In plain language, as long as the proper licenses and payments are honored, fDeluxe, or the Time, are free to record and/or perform any song they wish to...even songs that Prince wrote and owns.

Hope this helps clear up at least a few lingering issues.

Freedom said:

squirrelgrease said:

Thank you once again, Mr. Leeds for the professional insight and the forthright, yet respectful way in which these often debated topics were answered.

And thank you databank for asking the good questions.

^^^ I'll second that... Thank you Mr A. Leeds

luv4u said:

Freedom said:

^^^ I'll second that... Thank you Mr A. Leeds

Thanks a lot Mr. Leeds, your answers are indeed very helpful and deeply appreciated: what you just revealed is precious as it allows us to have a much better understanding on the situation. Up until now no one suspected that the rights of many Paisley Park records had reverted back to Prince and that's major news!!!

This explains a lot, for example how Prince was able to reissue Hey Man... Smell My Finger and The Voice thru NPG Records/Edel in 1994, how he was able to reissue You Will Be Moved as a b-sides a few years back, and why NPG Records/Edel was supposed to rerelease several Paisley Park albums in the mid-90's before Prince changed his mind and called it a day (the 2 Madhouse albums, the 2 Eric Leeds albums, the Ingrid Chavez and Carmen Electra albums were all planned for rerelease).

As they were kept in print after Prince left WB, we can assume that at least the masters to the first 3 The Time albums, the first 2 Sheila E. albums (and probably Vanity 6 and Apollonia 6 as well) belong to WB: how and if Prince will manage to get the masters back will certainly be an interesting issue.

As for the rest of the Paisley Park releases, we cannot know at this point who owns what between 1985 and 1988, but the aforementioned planned releases by NPG/Edel seems to indicate that at least 8 and 16 reverted back to Prince, and his attempt to trademark The Family, Mazarati and Good Question might indicate that he owns these records as well (or, on the opposite, that he doesn't and that he's planning to fight for them). After 1988, the only doubtful albums are the 2 Kahoru Kohiruimaki releases (TDK most likely owns them) and Pandemonium (which was a joint release between Paisley Park and Warner-owned Reprise Records): the other releases are probably all Prince's property today.

Does anyone own a physical copy of Dale Bozzio's recent Make Love Not War album? The internal booklet, as posted on her site, contains no (p) or (c) informations but maybe the back cover does? It would be interesting to know if the Simon Simon remixes were rereleased courtesy of Warner Bros. records or PRN Productions (admitting Dale asked anyone, as it seems obvious that she didn't ask Prince before releasing Take Me 2 Your Leader - Prince is credited but the song is only copyrighted under Dale's publishing, and isn't listed as a Prince composition at ASCAP!).

It is to be noticed that the only former Prince associates who could afford a legal battle with him are multi-millionaires Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. I'm not saying that they will or would or even care, and it's likely that they just won't bother. But at least they CAN fight for the use of the name The Time or a share of The Time's back catalogue.

Another interesting issue will be the future of The Cinderella Theory and Hey... Man Smell My Finger: George Clinton fought hard to get back as much of his 70's material as possible, and either him or his estate might one day claim the rights to the Capitol and Paisley Park albums. What will Prince do?

A similar situation might occur with Come 2 My House. Chaka Khan recently said that she's trying to get her material back from WB because she wants her vault material to be released and her back catalogue properly handled. If she succeeds and launches a series of remastered reissues, she might want to include NPG Records' owned Come 2 My House.

Besides Prince's "own" catalogue, the future of the Jamie Starr/Paisley Park productions will probably be full of fascinating issues, as many people were involved and might have some interest in claiming their share of it. Whatever happens, I just hope that all these out-of-print gems will be offered to posterity in one form or another, and that Prince has plans for both his back catalogue, his past side-projects and the Vault's content.

But as no one knows what will or won't happen at this point, only time will tell...

...

[Edited 5/24/11 0:56am]

squirrelgrease said:

And thank you databank for asking the good questions.

My pleasure

And by the way, to all the people flaming fDeluxe and/or each other around here, i don't wanna lecture or blame anyone but couldn't you guys please show some respect when people such as Mr. Alan Leeds or Mr. Neil Richards take the time to come around, talk to us and/or answer our questions?

It's just so great when professionals who've worked with Prince and/or former Prince associates come here and share whatever they have to share. Look at what we've learned from this thread alone!!!

A more mature and respectful behavior would certainly encourage such people to come here more often. Flaming hard working, professional artists and insulting each other probably keeps many interesting people away from this forum and it's a pity.

Just my opinion, though, for what it's worth

...

[Edited 5/24/11 0:49am]

wow, how's about a 'thank you' to Alan and co for the info?!!. Jeeze, how often do these threads disintegrate into chaos and disorder, lots of abuse, lots of mis-information etc. So we get a big insight from the parties involved and in return they get a tonne of abuse. Come guys, don't be so up yourselves and show some gratitude.

Wow. I've been around this place for a long time now, and the fact that both Alan and Neil came in here to set the record straight is nothing short of amazing, and much appreciated.

Ahem. What wasn't so impressive? The treatment by some of the Orgers. Of course i'm not the least bit surprised that it happened, but it would have been nice if some folks could just put their internet egos aside and be respectful.

To Alan and Neil, a huge hearty thank you and I hope that you guys whenever you find a topic worth discussing that you please come back and drop some more knowledge on us.

To the Org, eh who am i kidding this place isn't changing anytime soon why waste my breath. Big ups to the old heads.

ALANL said:

I love and respect fans....all fans. Even those fans who don't choose to support the same music I embrace. That's what makes it all so fascinating.

But sometimes I wish fans who wish to extoll their wisdom were forced to take a Music Business 101 class before doing so. Like any industry, the complexities and nuances of music business law is something that requires study and experience. Second guessing professionals who have done so is rather pointless. Everyone is entitled to opinions and I personally love those that don't agree with mine - it keeps me thinking. But no one is entitled to manufacture facts.

With that in mind, I'm beginning to realize why some on prince.org have expressed curiosity as to why a music biz professional would choose to participate here. Now I get it and it's too bad. The dialogue with fans should be more productive in the spirit of sharing perspectives but less about second-guessing each other.

Thank u.................but it won't stop the nonsense.

2elijah said:

Maybe one day Alan, Prince, Fdeluxe and Neil, will find a way to work things out.

[Edited 5/23/11 16:01pm]

I wouldn't put any money on that.

This thread proves a point I've been trying 2 make here 4 years. There are "certain" folks here always making claims that "no one here KNOWS Prince" and or other so called celebs. This thread proves that u don't know who are behind the user names here.

There are many people here directly and indirectly tied 2 the entertainment business on many levels.

Graycap23 said:

2elijah said:

Maybe one day Alan, Prince, Fdeluxe and Neil, will find a way to work things out.

[Edited 5/23/11 16:01pm]

I wouldn't put any money on that.

So what you tryin' say Gray? They can't hug it out?

2elijah said:

Graycap23 said:

I wouldn't put any money on that.

So what you tryin' say Gray? They can't hug it out?

Not that they can't............they won't.

Graycap23 said:

This thread proves a point I've been trying 2 make here 4 years. There are "certain" folks here always making claims that "no one here KNOWS Prince" and or other so called celebs. This thread proves that u don't know who are behind the user names here.

There are many people here directly and indirectly tied 2 the entertainment business on many levels.

I guess the "Associated Artists" section is starting to live up to its name here.

Graycap23 said:

2elijah said:

So what you tryin' say Gray? They can't hug it out?

Not that they can't............they won't.

Well, guess the next step would be just to move on/let go.

2elijah said:

Graycap23 said:

Not that they can't............they won't.

Well, guess the next step would be just to move on/let go.

Easier said than done.............if it were that easy, there would be no need 4 the discussion 2 begin with.

Graycap23 said:

2elijah said:

Well, guess the next step would be just to move on/let go.

Easier said than done.............if it were that easy, there would be no need 4 the discussion 2 begin with.

To think they were all one, big family at one time, now their situation sounds like the title for a new song.."Broken family."

[Edited 5/24/11 8:05am]