Militant said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I don't care what anybody says, Louis Farrakhan is a genius.

He's also a bigot who is openly supporting the dictatorship of Libya and making homophobic, ignorant statements against the LGBT community.

Farrakhan is a double-edge sword. On one side, I'm very well please to see him defend Michael at every opportunity possible since the late 1980's. On the other side, I'm disappointed (but not really all that surprise) that Farrakhan is equally as old-school as Joseph Jackson concerning the LGBTs, including the ones that are black males that attended the Million Man March in hoping that Farrakhan would lighten up.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Timmy84 said:

I was more excited about this video than I was about "Black or White":

What was the hype like when BOW came out?

I remember when it premiered, it seemed to be a big deal and the song was very popular for the next year or two from what I recall. I remember being surprised with the ending but mostly enjoying maculay and all the multiculturalism and the morphing faces. I don't recall the controversy and people overreacting to it, I just remember the song being big....I guess when I was 8, I just knew music and no news or what people were saying.

Militant said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah the same truthful man who 27 years before about called Michael the f-word for what he was doing in his career.

That's like Joe Solmonese calling Lady Gaga "a person who stereotypes gays, lesbians and bisexuals" and then 20 years later calling her a martyr in case something happened to Gaga. Not that I think Gaga is really doing that much but some think so lol

Truth is I didn't need Farrakhan telling me that mess. Michael said it his damn self.

Exactly Timmy. Some fans have short memories.

Farrakhan is two-faced and shady as fuck. He snaked out and killed Malcolm, he's intolerant and hateful and people wanna call him a genius?

OFF-TOPIC: Why the hell is some people still thinking that Farrakhan had something to do with the assassination of Malcolm X, despite the fact that there were "double agents" that were playing off both Malcolm AND the Nation Of Islam?!?

BACK ON TOPIC: My memory is still very long Militant. I haven't forgotten about the harsh things that Farrakhan used to say about Michael (BTW, the thing Farrakhan used to say about Prince were a lot worse than what was said about Michael!). But after Michael & Farrakhan talk it out for the first time, Farrakhan's views about Michael change greatly. And when Michael started to have legal trouble and his issue with the music industry (especially Tommy Mottola), Farrakhan was one of a good number of people that defended him.

Now if you want to single out anyone for being two-faced, what about Oprah? Oh hell, at least Farrakhan had Michael's back the whole time when Michael was basically fighting for his life in court facing those (bullshit-ass) child molestation changes. Oprah on the other hand, treated Michael like "guilty until proven innocent" the whole damn time and then waited until AFTER Michael's death to start saying nice things about him like she never said anything wrong.

Granted, I agree with you & Timmy that Farrakhan is no angel. But I feel that Michael & Randy did right by taking their chances with Farrakhan as their ally than freaking two-faced backstabbing Oprah.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Timmy84 said:

I was more excited about this video than I was about "Black or White":

What was the hype like when BOW came out?

I remember everyone watched the interview and we watched the video. The next day it was a pure shitstorm, because he grabbed his crotch over a multitude of times and all of the violence at the end of it. That being said, the morphing in the video was one of the most praised parts of it. Then I lmao at the In Living Color Parody that came out. (Still makes me laugh all these years later.) Also, that song was pretty big too, I remember hearing it quite often.

But as a video I really liked Remember The Time more. I watched everytime, for that awesome dance sequence I tried to emulate with friends and that part with the gold kitty litter at the end.

Ugh...then Wazupwitcchu' came out.

[Edited 3/5/11 20:57pm]

Unholyalliance said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

What was the hype like when BOW came out?

I remember everyone watched the interview and we watched the video. The next day it was a pure shitstorm, because he grabbed his crotch over a multitude of times and all of the violence at the end of it. That being said, the morphing in the video was one of the most praised parts of it. Then I lmao at the In Living Color Parody that came out. (Still makes me laugh all these years later.) Also, that song was pretty big too, I remember hearing it quite often.

But as a video I really liked Remember The Time more. I watched everytime, for that awesome dance sequence I tried to emulate with friends and that part with the gold kitty litter at the end.

Ugh...then Wazupwitcchu' came out.

[Edited 3/5/11 20:57pm]

The ILC skit of "Black or White" was funny too.

Timmy84 said:

I was more excited about this video than I was about "Black or White":

oh for sure... but the SECOND PART of 'black or white'- when he's a BLACK PANTHER- i love that, man. unbridled black anger right there. michael was like, 'JUST in case y'all forgot i was black...'

Militant said:

MJJstudent said:

my issue with farrakhan at this point (besides the homophobia) is that he's supporting a cult like scientology, and propping up l. ron hubbard- a man who said he was above the law. how can you state to be a man of GOD then prop up hubbard?

i love the interview michael did with lisa marie, and he was asked if he was a scientologist, and he was like 'HAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIL NAW! i believe in a higher power.'

Yup. Scientology is a cult, a fake belief system built upon hilarious bullshit stories about space overlords, "thetans" and mystical space volcanos.

The fact that Farrakhan supports that shit just proves even further what a moron he is.

not to mention that l. ron hubbard was a blatant racist. and his son called him out as a fraud many times. the fact that people take this piece of science fiction called dianetics and take it as a bible makes me laugh. to even use it as 'inspiration'? come on. even aleister crowley (who hubbard looked to as a teacher, in relation to the 'dark arts'/occult) didn't really have much to say about him that was positive.

i mean, several countries around the world don't see scientology as a valid religion. it's clear that hubbard tagged the 'religion' title onto it in order to make money. he was open about this. why are people still giving their money and worshipping this dude?

the 'scientology' thing starts at about 1:30 or so... this interview is hilarious; it's one of the most uncomfortable things to watch. my favourite part is michael's response to the scientology querstion. i guess xenu was taking over his brain.

MJJstudent said:

Timmy84 said:

I was more excited about this video than I was about "Black or White":

oh for sure... but the SECOND PART of 'black or white'- when he's a BLACK PANTHER- i love that, man. unbridled black anger right there. michael was like, 'JUST in case y'all forgot i was black...'

That was the best part of the video, I agree.

Timmy84 said:

seeingvoices12 said:

That's your opinion dude for sure. ..he spoke the truth through that video the truth that no one wants to hear...

Yeah the same truthful man who 27 years before about called Michael the f-word for what he was doing in his career.

That's like Joe Solmonese calling Lady Gaga "a person who stereotypes gays, lesbians and bisexuals" and then 20 years later calling her a martyr in case something happened to Gaga. Not that I think Gaga is really doing that much but some think so lol

Truth is I didn't need Farrakhan telling me that mess. Michael said it his damn self.

i got one better for you... that's like RICK SANTORUM calling dan savage the greatest man on earth.

i actually have the 'crucifixion of michael' DVD. i think the basic premise was good, but i had several issues: firstly, the fact that there were about 17 minutes of commercials selling the minister's name. secondly, it's about an hour hyping the minister up, before he even comes and speaks about michael.

the thing that bothered me the most is that farrakhan, after his homophobic commentaries about michael, prince, etc. years later proceeds to call michael 'not of this earth', and talks about a crucifixion. see, michael, or NO man is jesus. i recognize the metaphorical context, but imagery is everything. so for him to praise scientology makes sense to me, as scientology is all about the iconic image of man, namely hubbard.

he also said obama was the 'messiah'. i'm actually not a fan of obama (i voted for cynthia mc kinney). but even if i WAS into obama, to say he was the freaking MESSIAH? come ON! farrakhan consistently makes men into these godly figures. those who practise islam also study the bible. wouldn't he be violating the first commandment of the bible then, by placing man above GOD?

i laugh when i think about the minister's statement of scientology 'taming white people'. if this is about 'taming white people' why is the minister asking black people to look into it? why can't you study the history of colonialism, if you want to look at how 'white people' work? or is he saying to study dianetics in relation to the history of colonialism? OF COURSE NOT.

i used to read the final call years ago (also, when it was called 'muhammad speaks'). i do not even recall all the hype for elijah muhammad, NOR farrakhan back then. not in the way it's happening now. there's too much 'man as icon' going on. again, you cannot be a man of GOD and proceed to make man an icon.

there are more than a few people i know who have actually left NOI and chose to practise orthodox islam for these reasons.

^ See this is why I hate religion or at least the people who become "religious leaders" trying to push their rhetoric on me. And for him to think an artist or even a president (I'm not a fan of governments in general) is a god is sick to me. I never thought Michael was "god". He had god-like talent but god? No.

TonyVanDam said:

BACK ON TOPIC: My memory is still very long Militant. I haven't forgotten about the harsh things that Farrakhan used to say about Michael (BTW, the thing Farrakhan used to say about Prince were a lot worse than what was said about Michael!). But after Michael & Farrakhan talk it out for the first time, Farrakhan's views about Michael change greatly. And when Michael started to have legal trouble and his issue with the music industry (especially Tommy Mottola), Farrakhan was one of a good number of people that defended him.

Now if you want to single out anyone for being two-faced, what about Oprah? Oh hell, at least Farrakhan had Michael's back the whole time when Michael was basically fighting for his life in court facing those (bullshit-ass) child molestation changes. Oprah on the other hand, treated Michael like "guilty until proven innocent" the whole damn time and then waited until AFTER Michael's death to start saying nice things about him like she never said anything wrong.

Granted, I agree with you & Timmy that Farrakhan is no angel. But I feel that Michael & Randy did right by taking their chances with Farrakhan as their ally than freaking two-faced backstabbing Oprah.

i concur with you one billion percent about winfrey, tony. many people don't agree with me (and that's cool) but i truly believe she is a devil.

and yes, the minister did indeed defend him till the end, when he started defending him. there were some things he got factually wrong in the speech he gave. i need to watch it again to see which parts those were. i already stated my issues with the video and the minister in general, so i won't repeat them.

Unholyalliance said:

Ugh...then Wazupwitcchu' came out.

[Edited 3/5/11 20:57pm]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! you mean' what's up witchoo and me, michael?' aka 'eddie murphy has a long-time crush on michael jackson, and he decided to look like a leather daddy in some video which looked like a 3rd-rate raspberry beret? michael was just being michael in the video, and eddie murphy had it so bad for the man.

all the clips i've seen of them together, eddie is not making his love of michael a secret. it's pretty funny. i don't think michael was oblivious either. he was just being nice.

MJJstudent said:

Unholyalliance said:

Ugh...then Wazupwitcchu' came out.

[Edited 3/5/11 20:57pm]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! you mean' what's up witchoo and me, michael?' aka 'eddie murphy has a long-time crush on michael jackson, and he decided to look like a leather daddy in some video which looked like a 3rd-rate raspberry beret? michael was just being michael in the video, and eddie murphy had it so bad for the man.

all the clips i've seen of them together, eddie is not making his love of michael a secret. it's pretty funny. i don't think michael was oblivious either. he was just being nice.

You know for all of his jabs at homosexuals in his comedies, Eddie was obviously feeling like Michael's boyfriend in that video. Michael would be " " whenever Eddie came by and touch him. I know I ain't the only one that noticed that.

Timmy84 said:

MJJstudent said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! you mean' what's up witchoo and me, michael?' aka 'eddie murphy has a long-time crush on michael jackson, and he decided to look like a leather daddy in some video which looked like a 3rd-rate raspberry beret? michael was just being michael in the video, and eddie murphy had it so bad for the man.

all the clips i've seen of them together, eddie is not making his love of michael a secret. it's pretty funny. i don't think michael was oblivious either. he was just being nice.

You know for all of his jabs at homosexuals in his comedies, Eddie was obviously feeling like Michael's boyfriend in that video. Michael would be " " whenever Eddie came by and touch him. I know I ain't the only one that noticed that.

No, you're not the only one. Omg that video was so bad it makes my skin crawl.

Timmy84 said:

MJJstudent said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! you mean' what's up witchoo and me, michael?' aka 'eddie murphy has a long-time crush on michael jackson, and he decided to look like a leather daddy in some video which looked like a 3rd-rate raspberry beret? michael was just being michael in the video, and eddie murphy had it so bad for the man.

all the clips i've seen of them together, eddie is not making his love of michael a secret. it's pretty funny. i don't think michael was oblivious either. he was just being nice.

You know for all of his jabs at homosexuals in his comedies, Eddie was obviously feeling like Michael's boyfriend in that video. Michael would be " " whenever Eddie came by and touch him. I know I ain't the only one that noticed that.

well you know... those who protest the loudest...

and no homeboy, you ain't the only one who noticed.

tell me he's not in love with michael. i dare you.

You know that tough guy front Eddie tried to pull with "Raw" didn't work. I bet when he first met Michael, he was all giddy like a kid getting ice cream (like he explained on "Delirious" ).

Unholyalliance said:

No, you're not the only one. Omg that video was so bad it makes my skin crawl.

i first saw that video when it came out. i was like, ?????????????????????????????

i saw him talking about the making of the video in some interview. homeboy was FLAMING like a torch! people wanna say michael is feminine- and to me, he did have a lot of feminine energy. there's nothing wrong with that; i'd just call that balanced. but really, that video, with eddie around, it made michael look uber masculine. i mean, for real!

i respect people's privacy when it comes to sexual orientation. but eddie done came out the closet with this video- wasn't that before he was found with the drag queen or whatever? michael just happened to be the object of his affections. he then moved his affections to johnny gill, i guess.

Timmy84 said:

You know that tough guy front Eddie tried to pull with "Raw" didn't work. I bet when he first met Michael, he was all giddy like a kid getting ice cream (like he explained on "Delirious" ).

yup. i do love when he was talking about how michael was like 'i'ma moonwalk all over yo ass!'

and eddie could actually sing- when he's not singing his own music. he was a great mimic.

and 'celebrity hot tub party' was a stroke of brilliance! eddie murphy on saturday night live was amazing.

this reminds me of something, but i wanna open it up on another thread. i'll go do that now.

MJJstudent said:

Timmy84 said:

You know for all of his jabs at homosexuals in his comedies, Eddie was obviously feeling like Michael's boyfriend in that video. Michael would be " " whenever Eddie came by and touch him. I know I ain't the only one that noticed that.

well you know... those who protest the loudest...

and no homeboy, you ain't the only one who noticed.

tell me he's not in love with michael. i dare you.

Damn, MJ wore that outfit OUT!

ViintageJunkiie said:

MJJstudent said:

well you know... those who protest the loudest...

and no homeboy, you ain't the only one who noticed.

tell me he's not in love with michael. i dare you.

Damn, MJ wore that outfit OUT!

he sho did. SHAMON!

Dont see how Eddie is in love with MJ. Eddie has been with more attractive ladies in his life than Michael has. What i see is Eddie just playing around.

Please don't say it's not true that Eddie Murphy has been with more attractive ladies. Cmon Debbie Row...lol....Lisa Marie is aiiight...But she aint FINE...Eddie has been with some FINE women

The first video Eddie is basically like do it yourself, but he played it off laughing. MJ looks at him like can you adjust the mic? Eddie has the look like HELL NAW....But he does anyway, but kinda like damn aiiight MJ

[Edited 3/5/11 23:48pm]

BabyBeMine said:

Dont see how Eddie is in love with MJ. Eddie has been with more attractive ladies in his life than Michael has. What i see is Eddie just playing around.

Please don't say it's not true that Eddie Murphy has been with more attractive ladies. Cmon Debbie Row...lol....Lisa Marie is aiiight...But she aint FINE...Eddie has been with some FINE women

The first video Eddie is basically like do it yourself, but he played it off laughing. MJ looks at him like can you adjust the mic? Eddie has the look like HELL NAW....But he does anyway, but kinda like damn aiiight MJ

[Edited 3/5/11 23:48pm]

rock hudson, tab hunter, montgomery clift, and a WHOLE bunch of folks had a whole bunch of attractive women too. i'm just sayin'. that closet was locked tight in hollywood, but it's a huge closet.

there are actually people i know who have seen eddie murphy with dudes (like johnny gill) up in the club, all touchy-feely. just because you are with women doesn't mean a thing sometimes. it's just a facade. elton john and freddie mercury had sexual relationships with women as well. and eddie murphy doing all those 'family movies' after he got caught with the drag queen or whatever... i don't know what that says to anybody else, but to ME...

and a lot of people said michael was gay, and yeah, that upset him but he didn't get all homophobic and huffy about it, like a lot of dudes who end up admitting they're gay years down the line. it's that 'doth protest too much' sort of thing. and if eddie murphy is 'just playing around', he should win an oscar, because when he was doing standup and playing the total flamey dudes... again, i'm just sayin'.

i think for michael. relationships were sacred and private, so he didn't talk about them too much. and people assumed he was gay because of that.

and sexuality isn't always about who you sleep with. that is only a part of the wide range of how one identifies oneself.

i still maintain that in comparison; when they're standing next to each other, michael looks hyper-masculine, and eddie murphy looks like a big 'ol flamer. don't make me bust out that 'whatzupwitu' video!!! oh dear lord, NO! i just wanna huge eddie murphy and say, it's alright dude, you can come out now.

Can you believe it was 2 years ago yesterday,when Michael announced the TII concerts.....

Claire73 said:

Can you believe it was 2 years ago yesterday,when Michael announced the TII concerts.....

yes indeed it was... and teena marie's 'birthday'. how time passes.

Not to take the thread off topic, but Tony, Farrakhan has pretty much admitted his role in Malcolm's death at this point.

a first-person view of the O2 announcement, 2 years ago:

around the 9 minute mark is really sad. even this person could tell something was wrong with him.

[Edited 3/6/11 2:33am]

I think the topic of dissing the sexuality of other's should be a topic MJ fans should stay off, because your gonna get your feelings hurt. Stick to the music topics.

Let's break it down

1. 1988/1989 - Tatiana - The weak excuse of Michael's manager Frank Dileo kicked her off the tour. That is the weakest excuse of any musician in music history. If the artist is feelin the lady,and wants her, he will put his manager in his place. Bottom line, MJ didn't want that fine looking lady.

2. 1993 Dangerous Tour - MJ spent more time with kids than Women. Not saying he did anything inappropriate, but he wasn't chillin with Tatiana or attractive ladies. He was rolling around with Jordy Chandler, and sleeping in the same hotel rooms, and bed. I thought you liked women? Yo Jordy the day has been fun, you and your mom can stay in room 464, while me and the lady are in room 466.....Umm....Jordy Chandler's mom looked kinda NICE....But MJ wanted to be with Jordy.....Like i said, im not saying he did anything inappropriate, but the average guy is gonna be like daaaaaamn. Is that your mom?

3. Once the allegations broke...Now he is in to the ladies all of a sudden and has Lisa Marie kiss him at the 1994 MTV Music awars. Had those allegations never broke, he and Lisa never would have gotten married. It was MJ's plan to try and look straight to the world.

There is no evidence supporting MJ really being in to the ladies. Just HYPE to make him look good to the public. What was he doing before the allegations? Umm allowing Tatiana to get kicked off the tour...Why? Because he didn't like the kiss from a female, and put the blame on Frank Dileo

A artist makes all the decisions....Look Frank, the chick is HOT...She is staying on this tour. if you don't like it you can BOUNCE.....

[Edited 3/6/11 2:47am]

http://www.youtube.com/wa...2JX2ouhr_8

Instead of Tatiana, Brookie Shields or simply a lady sitting on his lap and chillin with him on tour, MJ chose to have Jordy Chandler. Kinda strange. I mean the kid was 13....Not 5

13 sitting on the lap of a grown man not related. What 13 year old MALE kids are still sitting on the lap of a grown man? Not black kids

BabyBeMine said:

I think the topic of dissing the sexuality of other's should be a topic MJ fans should stay off, because your gonna get your feelings hurt. Stick to the music topics.

Let's break it down

1. 1988/1989 - Tatiana - The weak excuse of Michael's manager Frank Dileo kicked her off the tour. That is the weakest excuse of any musician in music history. If the artist is feelin the lady,and wants her, he will put his manager in his place. Bottom line, MJ didn't want that fine looking lady.

2. 1993 Dangerous Tour - MJ spent more time with kids than Women. Not saying he did anything inappropriate, but he wasn't chillin with Tatiana or attractive ladies. He was rolling around with Jordy Chandler, and sleeping in the same hotel rooms, and bed. I thought you liked women? Yo Jordy the day has been fun, you and your mom can stay in room 464, while me and the lady are in room 466.....Umm....Jordy Chandler's mom looked kinda NICE....But MJ wanted to be with Jordy.....Like i said, im not saying he did anything inappropriate, but the average guy is gonna be like daaaaaamn. Is that your mom?

3. Once the allegations broke...Now he is in to the ladies all of a sudden and has Lisa Marie kiss him at the 1994 MTV Music awars. Had those allegations never broke, he and Lisa never would have gotten married. It was MJ's plan to try and look straight to the world.

4.

what's reason number 4??!!

why would the discussion of sexuality hurt someone's feelings? i can't speak for anybody but myself, and i know you're not hurting my feelings. i'm not sure who you are referring to.

and frankly, even in the music discussions, people get into fisticuffs, so i'm not sure what the difference is here.

again, the examples you used, i don't really see a gay man. i see someone who presented a certain aspect of sexuality publicly. i see someone who grew up with a warped sense of sexuality. i don't see, when i see michael, someone who grew up with positive role models, and that includes sexual relationships. the males in his family took groupies and didn't value relationships. he grew up hjehovah's witness, and he was pretty strict about it. he also was adamant in terms of no sex before marriage.

it seems to me, if he had a choice, he would not have all the women in the videos like that, but i'm not him, so i cannot exactly say if that were true.

again, speaking for myself- i was always called gay or asexual because i was never seen with dudes. we focus so much on sex in this society, that if someone isn't coupled up (with the opposite sex) something is wrong with them. then there's the other issue of an ADULT male being seen with children. if michael were a woman, no one would bat an eye.

in terms of the 'attractive women'; beauty is in the eye of the beholder, they say. michael has been pretty open that his ideal woman was diana ross. no one (who was not his mother) really touched her. he was also pretty open that even though he thought tatiana, naomi campbell, etc were attractive, he was not attracted to them. i don't take issue with that at all.

"But MJ wanted to be with Jordy.....Like i said, im not saying he did anything inappropriate, but the average guy is gonna be like daaaaaamn. Is that your mom?"

i know heterosexual males who are NOT like that, who don't look at women in that way. maybe michael just wasn't attracted to jordan chandler's mother.

the thing is, michael DID look at women all the time. he just didn't do it on camera. the one time he did it on camera was in 2003- it ended up on the video 'michael jackson commemorated'. he did a WHOLE lot of 'fishing'. many people who were interviewed spoke at how surprised they were, over the years how much he looked at women, and commented on them. so many people commented on how he was an 'ass man'. some of those men interviewed thopught he wasn't interested in women either.

so of course, michael presented one side of himself to the majority of the public. again, i see no problem with that. he has to protect himself. i don't think it's his duty to present himself as some hypersexual male. i don't see the point in that. he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.

again, i wasn't there with him and lisa marie to make that call. perhaps they actually really DID love each other though. why is that such a surprise to people?

and perhaps he kissed lisa marie on television because he knew people would talk about it forever. perhaps it had nothing to do with proving sexuality. the man is about marketing. and that is one heck of a marketing scheme, if i've ever heard of one.

i think for michael to NOT display his sexuality all over the place could be (a. pure marketing, so people could talk about him, or (b. based on his jehovah's witness beliefs. i don't necessarily think it's because he's gay.

and again, i give the side eye to all those dudes who DO go around sleeping with all these women to prove they aren't gay. and if they're caught out there, just admit it.

BabyBeMine said:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...2JX2ouhr_8

Instead of Tatiana, Brookie Shields or simply a lady sitting on his lap and chillin with him on tour, MJ chose to have Jordy Chandler. Kinda strange. I mean the kid was 13....Not 5

13 sitting on the lap of a grown man not related. What 13 year old MALE kids are still sitting on the lap of a grown man? Not black kids

i've seen it though. i've seen it in non-u.s., non-european cultures. i'm just sayin', it's not always about sexuality. for many people around the world, what michael does is not weird. which may be why he's more accepted outside of the u.s. who knows...

i think everything is according to context, and out personal preferences and perspectives... my perspective is that his public persona in relation to sexuality was most likely a reaction to the uber-masculinity of the other males in his family. perhaps that's why he maintained the high pitched voice for so many years... you never know.

and even if michael WAS gay, why does it matter? i don't think he was, but if he were, so what? i don't think that takes away from his art or intent.

[Edited 3/6/11 3:17am]

[Edited 3/6/11 3:20am]